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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: KokoyPinoy on December 25, 2010, 09:55:41 am
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I know that every muscle in our legs plays an important role in vertical jumping but is the buttocks more important than the quadriceps in the VJ movement, specifically in the concentric phase? Like what KellyB's article states?http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/noglutes.html (http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/noglutes.html)
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quads>glutes>hams
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It depends on the person. Based on biomechanical testing it can be as much as 57% glute to 23% quad on one extreme to 49% quad and 28% glute at the other end, depending on the individual. The best jumpers tend to be naturally hip/glute dominant and natural shitty jumpers and people with injuries don't. One of the best predictors of future knee pain is quad dominance/tightness and jumpers are already inherently succeptible to knee issues. Life itself also tends to leave the glutes disproportionately underactivated and unstrengthened and most training will inherenlty strengthen your quads disproportionately over your glutes, so more glute work is generally a good idea. I believe Alex V did a case study of some sort where all he did was add glute work to the regimen of cross country runners and they all made awesome gains.
You can strengthen your glutes thru exercises like the squat providing they're not shut down. A good observation to make is to pay attention to where you get sore when you squat. If your ass is getting sore that's a pretty good indication that you're hitting your glutes. If it's not you could probably stand to follow more of the advice in that article.
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Do you think hip thrusts can possibly have a good effect into making you more aware (or aware again) of the glutes?
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Not Kelly, but hip thrusts, glute bridges, they all help with the mind-muscle connection.
By mind-muscle I mean the ability to voluntary contract(if people have different meanings attached to the word), like making your pectorals 'dance', or biceps 'jump'.
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Yeah I know, increased awareness and control.
It also depends on muscle size. If you don't have it, there's nothing to control in the first place.
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interesting article...
I'm a slight anterior tilt, but if I flex glutes+abs, I get neutral
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interesting article...
I'm a slight anterior tilt, but if I flex glutes+abs, I get neutral
WTF? :ninja:
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It depends on the person. Based on biomechanical testing it can be as much as 57% glute to 23% quad on one extreme to 49% quad and 28% glute at the other end, depending on the individual. The best jumpers tend to be naturally hip/glute dominant and natural shitty jumpers and people with injuries don't. One of the best predictors of future knee pain is quad dominance/tightness and jumpers are already inherently succeptible to knee issues. Life itself also tends to leave the glutes disproportionately underactivated and unstrengthened and most training will inherenlty strengthen your quads disproportionately over your glutes, so more glute work is generally a good idea. I believe Alex V did a case study of some sort where all he did was add glute work to the regimen of cross country runners and they all made awesome gains.
You can strengthen your glutes thru exercises like the squat providing they're not shut down. A good observation to make is to pay attention to where you get sore when you squat. If your ass is getting sore that's a pretty good indication that you're hitting your glutes. If it's not you could probably stand to follow more of the advice in that article.
Thanks for the answer. :D And I'm sure I'm quad dominant! Every time I squat, my quads are the ones who get sore. But when I did the box squat, my butt was the one that got sore.
I know I should change my squatting form and should open up my knees more(stretch my groin) when in the concentric pace or even add exercises for my butt. But I'm already following a program that's very taxing to my body.If an added exercise/s is recommended what would be wise to add to my program? And when? Before normal squatting? before doing any lower body exercise? or during my upper body workout days? Or should I change my Normal Squatting(5x5 80% with up to 1 rm warm-up) during Mondays to Box Squat(80% of max with 1rm warm-up?).
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Iso extension stim before squatting might help the glutes come alive I guess...
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Iso extension stim before squatting might help the glutes come alive I guess...
Thanks! But I think we don't have that kind of machine. :(
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^you can actually do it in your head for some stim
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tight quads don't help the glutes, do some stretches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hQSJVIN3c
Flexibility
A lot of you guys suffer from white man’s disease, meaning no glutes or hamstrings. Because of this, most of you have tight hip flexors (specifically the psoas muscle) and tight quads (specifically the rectus femoris, which acts as a hip flexor)
Stretches for these would be the warrior lunge stretch for the hip flexors, and a Bulgarian split squat stretch for the quads. A lot of you will just be tight all over, so stretching everything is a good idea. Stretch after your workout and before you go to bed (right after your shower would be ideal, but I know a lot of people will sweat from stretching, defeating the purpose of the shower). I like holding each stretch for 3 sets of 20 seconds. Foam rolling will also increase flexibility.
Mobility/Muscle Activation
I’m just going to link you to stronglifts articles, because they explain these better than I can. Read them.
http://stronglifts.com/7-dynamic-str...-hip-mobility/ (http://stronglifts.com/7-dynamic-str...-hip-mobility/)
http://stronglifts.com/how-to-improv...nkle-mobility/ (http://stronglifts.com/how-to-improv...nkle-mobility/)
http://stronglifts.com/10-tips-to-st...-and-cracking/ (http://stronglifts.com/10-tips-to-st...-and-cracking/)
http://stronglifts.com/how-to-optimi...te-activation/ (http://stronglifts.com/how-to-optimi...te-activation/)
http://stronglifts.com/lordosis-why-...how-to-fix-it/ (http://stronglifts.com/lordosis-why-...how-to-fix-it/)
http://stronglifts.com/shoulders-dislocations/ (http://stronglifts.com/shoulders-dislocations/)
http://stronglifts.com/squat-bar-position/ (http://stronglifts.com/squat-bar-position/)
a little something on the squat
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly20.htm (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly20.htm)
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It depends on the person. Based on biomechanical testing it can be as much as 57% glute to 23% quad on one extreme to 49% quad and 28% glute at the other end, depending on the individual. The best jumpers tend to be naturally hip/glute dominant and natural shitty jumpers and people with injuries don't. One of the best predictors of future knee pain is quad dominance/tightness and jumpers are already inherently succeptible to knee issues. Life itself also tends to leave the glutes disproportionately underactivated and unstrengthened and most training will inherenlty strengthen your quads disproportionately over your glutes, so more glute work is generally a good idea. I believe Alex V did a case study of some sort where all he did was add glute work to the regimen of cross country runners and they all made awesome gains.
You can strengthen your glutes thru exercises like the squat providing they're not shut down. A good observation to make is to pay attention to where you get sore when you squat. If your ass is getting sore that's a pretty good indication that you're hitting your glutes. If it's not you could probably stand to follow more of the advice in that article.
Thanks for the answer. :D And I'm sure I'm quad dominant! Every time I squat, my quads are the ones who get sore. But when I did the box squat, my butt was the one that got sore.
I know I should change my squatting form and should open up my knees more(stretch my groin) when in the concentric pace or even add exercises for my butt. But I'm already following a program that's very taxing to my body.If an added exercise/s is recommended what would be wise to add to my program? And when? Before normal squatting? before doing any lower body exercise? or during my upper body workout days? Or should I change my Normal Squatting(5x5 80% with up to 1 rm warm-up) during Mondays to Box Squat(80% of max with 1rm warm-up?).
Just add a glute exercise after your squats. I prefer a manual reverse hyper or hip thrust. If you're doing your supplemental glute work you can actually get away with doing more quad dominant squat variations like the half squats. Anoterh good exercise to consider are the hang snatches as they're naurally hip dominant if you do them correctly.
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Thanks BMully! and Kellyb for your help! ;D But Kellb, I'll try to be glute dominant in my squats and train my glute to its limits! As you said, being glute dominant helps to be more athletic and prevents knee injuries. To do that I'll try some glute activation before I squat.
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I think learning a correct squat which strengthens the glutes and quads in a balanced fashion would be the best way to go. If you don't feel your glutes after squats you either have pretty strong glutes already or your form is bad.
Adding hip dominant exercises might be another variant, but they should primarily help to learn a good squat. The reason being that one exercise that trains A and B is better than an exercise that trains A plus another exercise that trains B. This is especially true considering your statement about how taxing your current training plan is already. Adding exercises is going to make it worse.
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I think learning a correct squat which strengthens the glutes and quads in a balanced fashion would be the best way to go. If you don't feel your glutes after squats you either have pretty strong glutes already or your form is bad.
Adding hip dominant exercises might be another variant, but they should primarily help to learn a good squat. The reason being that one exercise that trains A and B is better than an exercise that trains A plus another exercise that trains B. This is especially true considering your statement about how taxing your current training plan is already. Adding exercises is going to make it worse.
quick reply as im about to leave, but i agree that A & B in one exercise is better than A + B in two exercises, BUT, there's a few things that can make A + B more effective and help you towards achieving A & B:
- if you can't feel your glutes much in a half squat, unilaterals or glute dominant assistance exercises can actually help you achieve more glute recruitment at half squat depth, so eventually half squatting can have much more glute contribution
forgot what else i was going to say, im in a rush.. loool
ps: I love 20 rep squats (half squat for my own circumstance).
;d
peace
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Thanks for all of your advices! ;D I'll now try to add 2 glute activation exercises, namely glute bridges then hip thrusts, with 2 stets of 5 reps each(?? not sure??) before doing the bulgarian split squat and the half squat. I hope I'll feel my glutes later in my work-out! ;)
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What part of the butt should go sore when you do the squat? The whole butt or only the lower part?
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What part of the butt should go sore when you do the squat? The whole butt or only the lower part?
I got my entire butt sore when I did long reach-out BSSs and possibly walking lunges. Otherwise, it's usually the part connecting the glute to the hamstring for me.
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AHHH. Okay thanks, Raptor! I just felt the soreness in my lower part of my butt this evening of the day after the workout. It feels good! Yeah! :headbang:
BTW, what's a BSS?
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It's a bullshit squat.
Nah, it's a Bulgarian Split Squat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXX957jkp50
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It's a bullshit squat.
Nah, it's a Bulgarian Split Squat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXX957jkp50
Ow that's the BSS. Thanks again! hehehe ;D
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One of the most effective techniques I have used to attain a more glute driven squat is to start with a progression:
1.) Just the bar, iso hold in the bottom position of the squat,15-30 seconds, focus on activating the glutes by sitting back into the hips, "pulling" down with the hip flexors, pushing out to the sides of the shoes, tightening the core, "pulling" with the feet, etc. You can mess around with many of these techniques until you feel the glutes turn on and take the brunt of the load.
2.) Decend into the bottom of the squat, pause at the bottom (5-10 secs), focus on attaining the same position as you achieved in step 1, and drive back up using the glutes to drive the lift.
3.) Progress into a standard concentric/eccentric squat, be sure to hit the same position in the bottom that you have been practicing in steps 1 and 2.
4.) (if applicable) Reactive squat- drop down into the same positon using the same cues, rebound out.
With more advanced athletes, simply using the pause squats (step 2) during the warm up sets, focusing on the extra glute activity, may be all thats needed to get a more glute driven squat.
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Good article on glute development.
Dispelling the Glute Myth by Bret Contreras
Original Link: http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/dispelling_the_glute_myth
These are some of the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVlQhlKf-5Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfBSlZApqs
Bridge press.
(http://www.lostartofhandbalancing.com/images/joenordquest2.JPG)
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One of the most effective techniques I have used to attain a more glute driven squat is to start with a progression:
1.)Just the bar, iso hold in the bottom position of the squat,15-30 seconds, focus on activating the glutes by sitting back into the hips, "pulling" down with the hip flexors, pushing out to the sides of the shoes, tightening the core, "pulling" with the feet, etc. You can mess around with many of these techniques until you feel the glutes turn on and take the brunt of the load.
Isometric squats.
Effects of isometric squat training on the tendon stiffness and jump performance.
Original Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16328192
Conclusion. These results suggest that isometric squat training changes the stiffness of human tendon-aponeurosis complex in knee extensors to act negatively on the effects of pre-stretch during stretch-shortening cycle exercises.
Would you still do them?.
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If you don't overdo it, you're probably going to gain more by having a more glute driven squat than you'd lose by tendon stiffness adaptations, if any, that will occur in my opinion.
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Of course I would, its a PROGRESSION for one, the amount of jumping/sprinting/jump-plyo- reactive drills and work, etc. will easily make up for and outweight a 15-30 second iso hold done to ACTIVATE the glutes, and teach an athlete how to squat properly so that they may perform them correctly and safely.
Im not going to get into it in depth, but tendon stiffness is not the end all be all in jumping and sprinting either.
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How about what I'm doing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMEH2u0N-lY
The aim of that was just good ol' plain ISO strength. Rep time is ~20s.
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Or what Brett is doing in the video HE posted...... ROFL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfBSlZApqs
:uhhhfacepalm:
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Well, he did say "changes the stiffness of human tendon-aponeurosis complex in knee extensors". In a hip thrust hold, there isn't too much knee extensor activity other than stabilizing etc.
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clicked on this thread expecting to see hot asses. fuck you all.
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Well, he did say "changes the stiffness of human tendon-aponeurosis complex in knee extensors". In a hip thrust hold, there isn't too much knee extensor activity other than stabilizing etc.
Would still be isometric in nature at both joints, regardless its an invalid argument.
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clicked on this thread expecting to see hot asses. fuck you all.
+1
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Oh and btw, tendon stiffness + MUSCULAR STIFFNESS = JOINT STIFFNESS, not tendon stiffness alone.
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Or what Brett is doing in the video HE posted...... ROFL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfBSlZApqs
:uhhhfacepalm:
Your not a fan?. Reason(s)?.
They activate a hell of alot of glute.
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Or what Brett is doing in the video HE posted...... ROFL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zfBSlZApqs
:uhhhfacepalm:
Your not a fan?. Reason(s)?.
They activate a hell of alot of glute.
Of course thats a good exercise, I quoted that video because of your question to me about the effect of isometrics (holding in the bottom when teaching beginners TO ACTIVATE AND DRIVE THE SQUAT WITH THE GLUTES), "would i still use them". Its ironic that you posted a video of an ISOMETRIC.
Obviously isos can have their place in training, they shouldnt make up the main part of it imo but the thinking that using them for glute activation at the bottom of a squat in the BEGINNING phases of learning the movement would over ride everything else you did in your training and decrease tendon stiffness is silly.
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I still think of ways to overload the jumping leg isometrically in the same exact position as in a one-leg jump. Beats me a way to do it other than a isometric leg press hold in that ROM.
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I still think of ways to overload the jumping leg isometrically in the same exact position as in a one-leg jump. Beats me a way to do it other than a isometric leg press hold in that ROM.
In extension, hold dumbells, barbell if you have a set up against a wall with a rack, weight vests, bands, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaBXq90AAM
edit: raptor, you have a power jumper dont you? You can get the heavy resistance (100 lb) tension bands and it has been working well for this exercise.
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I still think of ways to overload the jumping leg isometrically in the same exact position as in a one-leg jump. Beats me a way to do it other than a isometric leg press hold in that ROM.
Why?
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No, I can't. I live in Romania. It's complicated here with cards and bands and stuff. I don't know any sports store that has bands for training by the way. And I don't think the powerjumper is deliverable in Romania, I think Jack Woodrup sent me the powerjumper himself or something like that.
And by the way, when I said "in the one-leg jump ROM" I meant - with the knee bent 20-26 degrees, so not in the full hip extension. I'd like to overload my amortization phase isometric position, which is knee and hip a little bent.
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One of the most effective techniques I have used to attain a more glute driven squat is to start with a progression:
1.)Just the bar, iso hold in the bottom position of the squat,15-30 seconds, focus on activating the glutes by sitting back into the hips, "pulling" down with the hip flexors, pushing out to the sides of the shoes, tightening the core, "pulling" with the feet, etc. You can mess around with many of these techniques until you feel the glutes turn on and take the brunt of the load.
Isometric squats.
Effects of isometric squat training on the tendon stiffness and jump performance.
Original Link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16328192
Conclusion. These results suggest that isometric squat training changes the stiffness of human tendon-aponeurosis complex in knee extensors to act negatively on the effects of pre-stretch during stretch-shortening cycle exercises.
Would you still do them?.
I think you misinterpreted that study. Look at the entire thing:
Effects of isometric squat training on the tendon stiffness and jump performance.
Kubo K, Yata H, Kanehisa H, Fukunaga T.
Department of Life Science (Sports Sciences), University of Tokyo, Meguro-ku, Japan. kubo@idaten.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Abstract
The present study aimed to investigate the effect of isometric squat training on human tendon stiffness and jump performances. Eight subjects completed 12 weeks (4 days/week) of isometric squat training, which consisted of bilateral leg extension at 70% of maximum voluntary contraction (MVC) for 15 s per set (10 sets/day). Before and after training, the elongations of the tendon-aponeurosis complex in the vastus lateralis muscle and patella tendon were directly measured using ultrasonography while the subjects performed ramp isometric knee extension up to MVC. The relationship between the estimated muscle force and tendon elongation was fitted to a linear regression, the slope of which was defined as stiffness. In addition, performances in two kinds of maximal vertical jumps, i.e. squatting (SJ) and counter-movement jumps (CMJ), were measured. The training significantly increased the volume (P < 0.01) and MVC torque (P < 0.01) of the quadriceps femoris muscle. The stiffness of the tendon-aponeurosis complex increased significantly from 51 +/- 22 (mean +/- SD) to 59 +/- 24 N/mm (P = 0.04), although that of the patella tendon did not change (P = 0.48).[ The SJ height increased significantly after training (P = 0.03), although the CMJ height did not (P = 0.45). In addition, the relative difference in jump height between SJ and CMJ decreased significantly after training (P = 0.02). These results suggest that isometric squat training changes the stiffness of human tendon-aponeurosis complex in knee extensors to act negatively on the effects of pre-stretch during stretch-shortening cycle exercises.
Structurally the muscle and tendon both improved, but only the SJ was positively affected on a performance basis. You see the same thing with EMS or anything else that strengthens muscles without movement. Movements involving reflexive action don't improve unless they're done in conjunction with that type of training. It's not anything inherently wrong with the ISos but they have to be done in conjunction with dynamic movements.
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Kelly, have you ever done or prescribed very heavy iso calf raises on the top of the movement? Like, hold for 30s with a 200 kg barbell on the back etc?
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Kelly, have you ever done or prescribed very heavy iso calf raises on the top of the movement? Like, hold for 30s with a 200 kg barbell on the back etc?.
Or how about seated iso calf raises?.
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just for the record, i have no problems with isos, but i prefer paused lifts. I'm definitely against "iso-only routines" regardless of whether or not they involve very heavy isos, I prefer EIC work focusing on the transition from E TO C.
iso-whatever is fine as long as it is supplementary.. if hip thrusts are used in conjunction with squat/calf raise etc, regarding vert, then ya, it can definitely help.. one thing i've noticed over the years though, is people who fall in love with isos, usually start to use them exclusively or to the detriment of the most important lifts.. I don't know why, but that's what i've seen time & time again.
my fav exercises for glutes would be:
pause squat
walking lunges (pause lunge accessory <-- very effective)
45 deg hyper
reverse hyper
glute bridges (or light hip thrusts for higher reps) <-- not a fan of these max effort hip thrusts
pC
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Kelly, have you ever done or prescribed very heavy iso calf raises on the top of the movement? Like, hold for 30s with a 200 kg barbell on the back etc?.
Or how about seated iso calf raises?.
Those would pretty much target the soleus...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaBXq90AAM
lance, this video worked too well! my glutes got so fried from bounding,sprinting, and lunging that I couldnt even squat!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaBXq90AAM
lance, this video worked too well! my glutes got so fried from bounding,sprinting, and lunging that I couldnt even squat!
Hah, thats great man, the better you get at it and the stronger contraction you learn to achieve in that position the more carryover to jumps, sprints, and lifts you will see.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaBXq90AAM
lance, this video worked too well! my glutes got so fried from bounding,sprinting, and lunging that I couldnt even squat!
haha nice..