Author Topic: Calf size  (Read 3975 times)

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mherold

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Calf size
« on: June 04, 2011, 12:59:44 pm »
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Maybe this has been discussed before, but I have started to notice that most good white jumpers have decent calf size. I think we can all agree that black vs. white athletes are often structured differently.  Most black athletes have more of the long achilles high cut calf spring function going. Perhaps to make up for that the white athlete has to have more of a muscle force production function and bigger muscles produce more force generally speaking???  Look at Rips calves for example. I can name so many examples-from kids on my college soccer team to guys I see in the park today. ... most white great athletes have big calves. Am I crazy?

DamienZ

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2011, 01:30:41 pm »
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Maybe this has been discussed before, but I have started to notice that most good white jumpers have decent calf size. I think we can all agree that black vs. white athletes are often structured differently.  Most black athletes have more of the long achilles high cut calf spring function going. Perhaps to make up for that the white athlete has to have more of a muscle force production function and bigger muscles produce more force generally speaking???  Look at Rips calves for example.I can name so many examples-from kids on my college soccer team to guys I see in the park today. ... most white great athletes have big calves. Am I crazy?

Rip can't jump and is or has never been a great athlete!

piR

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2011, 05:40:53 pm »
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More muscle = more potential force

But in my opinion, most great sprinters/jumps calfs are so well developed is because of the force they have to absorb from their sprints and jumps, and thus the calf grows in order to adapt to the stimulus. But the calfs should be trained because a stronger muscle is always a better muscle..

Raptor

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2011, 06:03:17 pm »
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More muscle = more potential force

But in my opinion, most great sprinters/jumps calfs are so well developed is because of the force they have to absorb from their sprints and jumps, and thus the calf grows in order to adapt to the stimulus. But the calfs should be trained because a stronger muscle is always a better muscle..

100% true. The reason strong guys have big calves is because of what they're producing at the hip and knee level (glutes, quads etc). So everything that's above the calves produces a lot of power that is being transferred to the ground through the calves, so the calves have no chance but to adapt to that stimulus. In the end, they are so developed like that person is heavier, so they need to grow and stay big.

mherold

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2011, 08:05:50 pm »
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Makes sense. I bullshit not that I thought that to be a potential reason but also there must be part of the genetic makeup of great athletes. Interesting though isnt it that the black athletes with hips producing power dont stimulate much growth of the gastroc/soleus. 

DamienZ

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2011, 03:45:50 am »
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strength of a muscle/tendon =/= size

Raptor

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2011, 05:31:35 am »
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Interesting though isnt it that the black athletes with hips producing power dont stimulate much growth of the gastroc/soleus. 

?

mherold

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2011, 10:51:20 am »
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What I said was rushed and didnt makes sense, well actually is wrong. I just meant the look of the growth is different between the majority of black and white athletes. stefan holm has low insertion and a bloated calf look kind of like Rip.  Jordan, Asafa Powell, etc. have a small ball of muscle high up on the calf with the long achilles. Insertion points and pennation angles differ is all I am saying but surely my last comment was wrong because even the jordan and asafa powell calf muscles hypertrphy. 

Long strong tendon and well placed muscle = x amount of force
Short tendon and extra muscle mass to make up for lack of tendon = x force

dirksilver

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2011, 12:21:04 pm »
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What I said was rushed and didnt makes sense, well actually is wrong. I just meant the look of the growth is different between the majority of black and white athletes. stefan holm has low insertion and a bloated calf look kind of like Rip.  Jordan, Asafa Powell, etc. have a small ball of muscle high up on the calf with the long achilles. Insertion points and pennation angles differ is all I am saying but surely my last comment was wrong because even the jordan and asafa powell calf muscles hypertrphy. 

Long strong tendon and well placed muscle = x amount of force
Short tendon and extra muscle mass to make up for lack of tendon = x force

still wrong brother...if you read back through the threads you'll see we had a sdiscussion about this type of thing a while back and some convincing arguments where made for shorter achilles being better for vertical jumping

longer achilles(which i has as a white dude)are better for top end speed potentially

mherold

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2011, 01:40:28 pm »
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Ok I looked over it and it makes sense. I read KellyB's article as well. Thanks. How about this theory then:

Knee caps- good athletes tend to have protruding knee caps. Maybe this relates to something about the patellar tendon function or just another charactersistic related to athleticism. I think part of it is having low body fat but the actual size seems to be bigger with some good athletes.   

dirksilver

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2011, 02:15:04 pm »
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Ok I looked over it and it makes sense. I read KellyB's article as well. Thanks. How about this theory then:

Knee caps- good athletes tend to have protruding knee caps. Maybe this relates to something about the patellar tendon function or just another charactersistic related to athleticism. I think part of it is having low body fat but the actual size seems to be bigger with some good athletes.   

huh...never heard that...put up some pics up please

dirksilver

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 05:12:20 pm »
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What I said was rushed and didnt makes sense, well actually is wrong. I just meant the look of the growth is different between the majority of black and white athletes. stefan holm has low insertion and a bloated calf look kind of like Rip.  Jordan, Asafa Powell, etc. have a small ball of muscle high up on the calf with the long achilles. Insertion points and pennation angles differ is all I am saying but surely my last comment was wrong because even the jordan and asafa powell calf muscles hypertrphy.  

Long strong tendon and well placed muscle = x amount of force
Short tendon and extra muscle mass to make up for lack of tendon = x force

I'm a white athlete that has long achilles & high calfs. It's a matter of genetics not race.

IMO extra muscle mass on the calfs doesn't make up for greater tendon elasticity. I would say a longer achilles is more beneficial.

Many top sprint coaches advise against putting mass on the calf's.

i would disagree simply because it's so hard to put mass or your calves period...but greater strength can be put on and tendon stiffness can be improved

Kellyb

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2011, 07:12:01 pm »
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The sprints are more about efficiency than jumps and short sprints. The longer the distance the more a tendon helps, as it spares energy contribution for a given intensity moreso than contributes to ultimate max energy produciton. In other words, you might outjump a kenyan but they can haul ass across the desert because they don't have to work near as hard to move.  Speed endurance (the last 40-50 meters of a 100 meter sprint) is somewhat like that too.

Longer tendons are also related to a better leveraged bone structure...longer bones in the right places.

But, unfavorable leverages can sometimes be made up for by disproportionate strength.  So if you have short lower legs you can overcome that somewhat by having calves that are powerful as hell.  

The jumps are a combination of knee, hip, and ankle extension.  More recent research is showing people vary considerably in which given extensor(s)  they utilize the most in jumps. Some people are knee and ankle dominant. Others are hip dominant. Some are ankle dominant, and some are more balanced.   In my observations just watching people move around and such it seems ankle dominance usually correlates with quad dominance If you see someone with big ol calves their ass is generally less developed relatively compared to their quads and calves and optimally utilizing their hips doesn't come so natural for them.  Ideally you want to be somewhat balanced and when you have that balance powerful calves can be a benefit.  I know people here don't like him but someone like squat dr. seems very balanced in his extensors - hip, knee, quad.  This is why a given exercise or prescription can somewhat be a blessing for some and curse for others.

LanceSTS

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Re: Calf size
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2011, 02:40:15 am »
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The sprints are more about efficiency than jumps and short sprints. The longer the distance the more a tendon helps, as it spares energy contribution for a given intensity moreso than contributes to ultimate max energy produciton. In other words, you might outjump a kenyan but they can haul ass across the desert because they don't have to work near as hard to move.  Speed endurance (the last 40-50 meters of a 100 meter sprint) is somewhat like that too.

Longer tendons are also related to a better leveraged bone structure...longer bones in the right places.

But, unfavorable leverages can sometimes be made up for by disproportionate strength.  So if you have short lower legs you can overcome that somewhat by having calves that are powerful as hell.  

The jumps are a combination of knee, hip, and ankle extension.  More recent research is showing people vary considerably in which given extensor(s)  they utilize the most in jumps. Some people are knee and ankle dominant. Others are hip dominant. Some are ankle dominant, and some are more balanced.   In my observations just watching people move around and such it seems ankle dominance usually correlates with quad dominance If you see someone with big ol calves their ass is generally less developed relatively compared to their quads and calves and optimally utilizing their hips doesn't come so natural for them.  Ideally you want to be somewhat balanced and when you have that balance powerful calves can be a benefit.  I know people here don't like him but someone like squat dr. seems very balanced in his extensors - hip, knee, quad.  This is why a given exercise or prescription can somewhat be a blessing for some and curse for others.

very nice post.
Relax.