Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: D-Rose Jr on March 19, 2011, 10:24:42 am
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I hear that calfs are useless, but i was wondering what the benefits were to train them?
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you still need to have strong calves to drive up off the balls of your feet and into the air....plus you want stiff ankles and stuff
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The calves aren't exactly useless. Their contribution to the vertical jump is a lot less than most people believe, but it's still there. Their main role though is that of a stabilizer.
Unless you're lacking in calf development, there is little need to spend time training them, but there is also no harm in it as long as you don't dedicate a lot of time to it.
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Calfs aren't useless. Like JoelJ said, they are a useful stabilizer, and on top of that, they aid in flexion at the knee. I do agree with JoelJ, no real need to train them unless they are lacking, but it doesn't hurt.
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what would you consider lacking?
I am pretty bouncey on my feet, but i can barely do some 1 legged calf raises without my calfs burning
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Lacking may be different for different people. For a bodybuilder, if they're not 18 inches around, they may be lacking. For a powerlifter, if they burn worse than their legs do after a heavy squat workout, they may be lacking. For a sprinter if their feet are slapping the ground towards the end of the race, they may be lacking. Basically if they are what's holding you back, they may be lacking.
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what about for a basketball player
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for sprinting/jumping, the calfs (calfs + achilles) are FAR from useless.. unfortunately the s&c industry now likes to tell you that certain muscle groups are "not important", ie quads/calfs, but glutes/hamstrings are somehow all we should focus on.. it's b.s... the calfs are muscle, they respond like any other muscle, they need to be trained explosively (jumping/sprinting/rebounds) and through prolonged tension (weighted resistance etc).
i'd do 5 (or more) sets of calf raises to fatigue on days you really train them, using a weight heavy enough to fatigue them by 20-25 reps.. they respond better to higher rep training imo.
make them stronger and you will jump higher/run faster.
peace
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for sprinting/jumping, the calfs (calfs + achilles) are FAR from useless.. unfortunately the s&c industry now likes to tell you that certain muscle groups are "not important", ie quads/calfs, but glutes/hamstrings are somehow all we should focus on.. it's b.s... the calfs are muscle, they respond like any other muscle, they need to be trained explosively (jumping/sprinting/rebounds) and through prolonged tension (weighted resistance etc).
i'd do 5 (or more) sets of calf raises to fatigue on days you really train them, using a weight heavy enough to fatigue them by 20-25 reps.. they respond better to higher rep training imo.
make them stronger and you will jump higher/run faster.
peace
x2
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_yQnsDKP1QMA/TA4zJ2S4lPI/AAAAAAAABaw/AWghK00mvms/s1600/28789_596003108146_31505152_34410134_7514717_n.jpg)
diesel
but yeah I've noticed a big improvement with ankle stability and stiffness by doing calves on the leg press(400lbsx2x100...30 something reps feet straight, ankles in and ankles out)
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would doing some 1 legged calf raises between sets of squats, rack pulls, and dips suffice. I get a burn doing 2 legged ones without weights during my rest period
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would doing some 1 legged calf raises between sets of squats, rack pulls, and dips suffice. I get a burn doing 2 legged ones without weights during my rest period
i bet you could still add weight...just because it burns without weights doesn't mean you aren't strong enough to do them with weights
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I think the calves get enough work if you do any jump squats, box squats, or high intensity jumping.
If you want extra work, I'd lean more towards hill sprints and sled drags/pulls than calf raises.
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I think the calves get enough work if you do any jump squats, box squats, or high intensity jumping.
If you want extra work, I'd lean more towards hill sprints and sled drags/pulls than calf raises.
x2
To me, my left calf, especially the lateral head, is VASTLY developed vs my right calf, because of all the jumps off my left leg vs. none off my right leg.
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i say why not train them? Unless your crazy and kill yourself maxing out on calf raises(never heard of that) its not going to take away from your other training(squats,jumps) and could be that missing link..
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I think the calves get enough work if you do any jump squats, box squats, or high intensity jumping.
If you want extra work, I'd lean more towards hill sprints and sled drags/pulls than calf raises.
what's the difference between the calves & glutes, in regards to requiring barbell training to get stronger?
for example, if calves don't need heavy tension, then why do glutes, hamstrings, or quads, but not calves?
also, calves get enough work in a box squat?
pc
I think the calves get enough work if you do any jump squats, box squats, or high intensity jumping.
If you want extra work, I'd lean more towards hill sprints and sled drags/pulls than calf raises.
x2
To me, my left calf, especially the lateral head, is VASTLY developed vs my right calf, because of all the jumps off my left leg vs. none off my right leg.
same question as above and..
what is your point by this statement? my left vmo is bigger than my right, my right thigh is bigger than my left, this indicates i get enough 'adaptations' simply from jumping? because that's why the size difference occurs..... from jumping over the years, the way i do.
everyone who reads this thread, please, do direct calves training if your goal is jumping higher or sprinting faster.. if you're doing direct training for other muscle groups, then why not calves? just use logic. if all of your "heavy tension exercises" (squat, lunge, stepup, ghr, reverse hyper, etc) do not maximally tax the calves via tension, then why would you not want to implement something that targets them directly?
KELLY, CAN YOU PLEASE MAKE AN ARTICLE SAYING HOW CALVES TRAINING IS IMPORTANT, AND THAT YOU SHOULD TARGET THEM DIRECTLY WITH HEAVY TENSION AS WELL OF COURSE WITH JUMPS/REBOUNDS.. PEOPLE KEEP USING THE "WELL HOW HIGH DO YOU GET IF YOU JUMP WITH JUST YOUR ANKLES" STATEMENT ETC AND JUST GOING APESHIT WITH IT. HERE IS THE ARTICLE:
Title: Weighted calve training is important
Calve training is important, they are no different than the glutes, hamstrings, quads, or any other muscle. Target them with rebounds, sprints, and jumps, but also do not neglect heavy tension to spur on extra strength gains, for example:
Strict Barbell calf raises, forefoot on block (0.5-1inch), 5 x 20.
Because when it's all said and done, horsepower is horsepower. As an example, an athlete who can strict standing calve raise 2+xBW for reps will have far more potential than if he can only strict standing calve raise 1xBW for reps.
Take care,
Kelly B.
end thread.
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So how many times per week should one train calves? Can they be trained more frequently than glutes, quads, hamstrings..
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So how many times per week should one train calves? Can they be trained more frequently than glutes, quads, hamstrings..
The thing about training frequency is it is dependent on volume, recovery, intensity, etc, so technically you COULD train glutes, quads, hams, calves, every day, and many athletes do. As a basic rule of thumb you should train calves at least twice a week, they recover pretty quickly especially if youre not in season and playing a lot of basketball/jumping a ton/etc.
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everyone who reads this thread, please, do direct calves training if your goal is jumping higher or sprinting faster.. if you're doing direct training for other muscle groups, then why not calves? just use logic. if all of your "heavy tension exercises" (squat, lunge, stepup, ghr, reverse hyper, etc) do not maximally tax the calves via tension, then why would you not want to implement something that targets them directly?
:highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive:
I think what happened is the products like strength shoes, jump soles, etc. etc. all focused on ONLY the lower leg so a lot of time went into explaining the importance of training the upper leg and the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Now what you have online is a bunch of people parroting each other when they have no idea if what they are talking about is correct or not. In the bbing.com thread one of the members is quoting a bill star article, ironically, bill star was a big proponent of calf training for VERTICAL JUMPING, using more volume for the lower leg than 99% of the other authors Ive seen.
But yes, the calves and lower leg complex are EXTREMELY important for athletes, and you will only get so far training one end of the spectrum (the maximum velocity side). Train both sides at the very end (max strength and max v) and everything in the middle goes up as well.
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everyone who reads this thread, please, do direct calves training if your goal is jumping higher or sprinting faster.. if you're doing direct training for other muscle groups, then why not calves? just use logic. if all of your "heavy tension exercises" (squat, lunge, stepup, ghr, reverse hyper, etc) do not maximally tax the calves via tension, then why would you not want to implement something that targets them directly?
:highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive: :highfive:
I think what happened is the products like strength shoes, jump soles, etc. etc. all focused on ONLY the lower leg so a lot of time went into explaining the importance of training the upper leg and the baby got thrown out with the bath water. Now what you have online is a bunch of people parroting each other when they have no idea if what they are talking about is correct or not. In the bbing.com thread one of the members is quoting a bill star article, ironically, bill star was a big proponent of calf training for VERTICAL JUMPING, using more volume for the lower leg than 99% of the other authors Ive seen.
But yes, the calves and lower leg complex are EXTREMELY important for athletes, and you will only get so far training one end of the spectrum (the maximum velocity side). Train both sides at the very end (max strength and max v) and everything in the middle goes up as well.
^^^^^^^^
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lance how do you prefer to train calves for max strength?
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I guess we moved past it but I think the proper response the "How high would you jump with just your ankles?" should be this question:
"How high would you jump without your feet?"
I'm just sayin, if your calves can translate the force from the rest of the body through your feet and into the ground then it really doesn't matter how strong your quads or hams are. (Obviously a person with super strong calves and tiny little upper legs is going to be much good either). It's a team effort. There's no "I" in hamstr..., wait, there's no "I" in Quadr...., crap.
THERE'S NO I IN LEGS! :strong:
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I guess we moved past it but I think the proper response the "How high would you jump with just your ankles?" should be this question:
"How high would you jump without your feet?"
I'm just sayin, if your calves can translate the force from the rest of the body through your feet and into the ground then it really doesn't matter how strong your quads or hams are. (Obviously a person with super strong calves and tiny little upper legs is going to be much good either). It's a team effort. There's no "I" in hamstr..., wait, there's no "I" in Quadr...., crap.
THERE'S NO I IN LEGS! :strong:
lmao nice post
ya, "how high would u jump if you only jumped using pure knee extension", "how high would you jump if you only jump using pure knee flexion", "how high would you jump using only pure hip extension", all are completely moronic rhetorical questions which make no sense.
together, everyone achieves more.
TEAM TEAM TEAM.
don't put calves on the bench folks, they are a key player.
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Yeah, the same thing can be applied to a kneeling jump.
This makes me remember what Axel said on TVS some two years ago.
Try to hit yourself in the balls with a hammer. Then jump. You won't get very high.
So obvisously, the balls are very important to jumping.
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axel might have borrowed that from James smith on elitefts..or vice versa
or maybe axel=JS
but yea people love to classify calfs as the devil
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in my eyes
calves= connection of quad/hamstring power to jumping height meaning that with weak calves, you wont be able to utilize all the power of your main jumping muscles....
...just sayin
EDIT: caught up on thread and realized I re stated everything in one sentence :\
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THERE'S NO I IN LEGS! :strong:
The spanish word for leg, la pierna, has an i
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lance how do you prefer to train calves for max strength?
Standing calf raises for sets anywhere between 10-20 reps, seated calf raises (if applicable) for sets of 15-25 reps.
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I guess we moved past it but I think the proper response the "How high would you jump with just your ankles?" should be this question:
"How high would you jump without your feet?"
I'm just sayin, if your calves can translate the force from the rest of the body through your feet and into the ground then it really doesn't matter how strong your quads or hams are. (Obviously a person with super strong calves and tiny little upper legs is going to be much good either). It's a team effort. There's no "I" in hamstr..., wait, there's no "I" in Quadr...., crap.
THERE'S NO I IN LEGS! :strong:
lmao nice post
ya, "how high would u jump if you only jumped using pure knee extension", "how high would you jump if you only jump using pure knee flexion", "how high would you jump using only pure hip extension", all are completely moronic rhetorical questions which make no sense.
together, everyone achieves more.
TEAM TEAM TEAM.
don't put calves on the bench folks, they are a key player.
whys a tree good? why are boobs good? they just are
-joe dirt
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Calves, just like abs, are always either overemphasized or under-emphasized. And everyone thinks they need special training.
Life's a garden, dig it.
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you want big and strong calves do this lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qNzzQUWldDM#at=64
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i'd do 5 (or more) sets of calf raises to fatigue on days you really train them, using a weight heavy enough to fatigue them by 20-25 reps.. they respond better to higher rep training imo.
make them stronger and you will jump higher/run faster.
adarqui, Do you think calf/achilles training reacts better to dynamic or isometric work the best?, specifically in the weight room. Or a combo of both?.
Just found this: http://jap.physiology.org/content/107/4/1181.short
What you reckon?.
It states: Isometric contractions reduce plantar flexor moment, Achilles tendon stiffness, and neuromuscular activity but remove the subsequent effects of stretch.
Isn't that a good thing?. Reducing achilles tendon stiffness?.
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i'd do 5 (or more) sets of calf raises to fatigue on days you really train them, using a weight heavy enough to fatigue them by 20-25 reps.. they respond better to higher rep training imo.
make them stronger and you will jump higher/run faster.
adarqui, Do you think calf/achilles training reacts better to dynamic or isometric work the best?, specifically in the weight room. Or a combo of both?.
Just found this: http://jap.physiology.org/content/107/4/1181.short
What you reckon?.
It states: Isometric contractions reduce plantar flexor moment, Achilles tendon stiffness, and neuromuscular activity but remove the subsequent effects of stretch.
Isn't that a good thing?. Reducing achilles tendon stiffness?.
i hate isometrics with a passion, i love quasi-isometrics (heavy lifting).. much of very heavy lifting are a series of isometric contractions, in a sense. the problem with purely isometric contractions is that, whether yielding or overcoming, their specificity/transfer just plain old sucks.. overcoming isos hit the tendons hard, yielding hits the muscles hard, but they both have horrible transfer to actual dynamic movements imo.. for example, a calf raise iso, you'd be better off just repping out the calf raises on a bar and improving strength through as much of the rom as possible, rather than working different iso angles and hoping it transfers.
isometrics are the devil in disguise.. hardly anyone, anywhere, has ever utilized them to achieve significant gains..
you want to improve strength in the calves/achilles with more transfer to sport/jump/sprint? hit them hard with regular barbell/db calve raises, standing (and possibly seated), and make sure you progress that strength over time.. like i said before, a 1xBW calve raise vs 2xBW calve raise works the exact same as 1xBW squat vs 2xBW squat in regards to jumping/sprinting etc..
regardless of muscle stiffness, tendon compliance, and all that minutia, you want to improve your measurables on the simple isotonic lifts, that's it, nothing fancy.. then you want to jump, sprint, do rebounds, and eat good.. no substitute for that.
isos are a devil in disguise because they seem fancy, are backed by a ton of 'clinical research', but they have no substantial application in ACTUAL performance enhancement, don't care what the inno sport huggers say.
pC hope that helps.. lol
and lol @ axel's nut comment, i love that quote.
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Would you use isos at a certain point of collapse (say as in that "knee collapse" angle in a one-leg jump)?
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and lol @ axel's nut comment, i love that quote.
Where's this?.
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Would you use isos at a certain point of collapse (say as in that "knee collapse" angle in a one-leg jump)?
nope, isos are mental masturbation.. if you're going to incorporate isos like that, they are SUPER SUPPLEMENTARY ASSISTANCE, you can't put any of your eggs in that basket thinking it will yield gains, you have to just perform them and if they give you gains good, if not, it's because they are isos.. so don't make them a primary part of your program because they usually lack any significant impact which would transfer to sport. i know i'm probably pissing alot of people off with those comments but, "traditional training" is far more effective than isos, it should be the primary type of training one uses to achieve gains, isos are just "fun little toys you try and hope they work".
you could do bodyweight iso work daily, multi daily, etc, hoping to improve some motor patterns/firing patterns, that's about all their good for imo.
and lol @ axel's nut comment, i love that quote.
Where's this?.
here: Try to hit yourself in the balls with a hammer. Then jump. You won't get very high.
lmao
btw your avatar looks f'n beast as hell.. perfectly cropped, looks sick.
pr0pz :D
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Hi Andrew
I agree about thge use of isos from a performance point of view as being limited. This is my experience as well. However, and I appreciate I am getting off topic here, I have found weighted split squat isos to be beneficial in a warm up to help get the muscles activated. I know the guys I train seem to feel better and from my own experience I beleive they help alleviate knee pain because my quads and glutes work better afterwards.
Jack
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Jack, do you view them superior to other forms of glute activation pre workout (glute bridge holds etc)?
What duration do you normally do them for/weight?
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Hi Andrew
I agree about thge use of isos from a performance point of view as being limited. This is my experience as well. However, and I appreciate I am getting off topic here, I have found weighted split squat isos to be beneficial in a warm up to help get the muscles activated. I know the guys I train seem to feel better and from my own experience I beleive they help alleviate knee pain because my quads and glutes work better afterwards.
Jack
thanks for the input jackW
Jack, do you view them superior to other forms of glute activation pre workout (glute bridge holds etc)?
What duration do you normally do them for/weight?
the only problem with those, for me personally, would be that they would stretch out my quads too much before dunking etc.. i've done them before prior to sprints/dunks and it wrecks how my quads feel, it's odd.. for stuff before dunking/sprinting, i like the prone glute/prone rev hyper stuff..
that's my 2cents on that..
pC
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the only problem with those, for me personally, would be that they would stretch out my quads too much before dunking etc.. i've done them before prior to sprints/dunks and it wrecks how my quads feel, it's odd.. for stuff before dunking/sprinting, i like the prone glute/prone rev hyper stuff..
that's my 2cents on that..
pC
Ja I found the best way were slow alternating lunges holding a hip flexor stretch for 5-10 seconds each time and then air squats holding onto something. Too much hip flexor streching or glute bridges totally killed my performance.
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I have found weighted split squat isos to be beneficial in a warm up to help get the muscles activated. I know the guys I train seem to feel better and from my own experience I believe they help alleviate knee pain because my quads and glutes work better afterwards.
How do you employ the weight, dumbells?, weighted vest? & for what duration?.
Doing them for time/bodyweight alone (60secs+) seems kinda tough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otBgoY3l2Ts
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Overcoming isos hit the tendons hard, yielding hits the muscles hard, but they both have horrible transfer to actual dynamic movements imo.. for example, a calf raise iso, you'd be better off just repping out the calf raises on a bar and improving strength through as much of the rom as possible, rather than working different iso angles and hoping it transfers.
adarqui, Is there any links/studies you can provide which backs that up "Overcoming isos hit the tendons hard".
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the only iso i ever do is this iso i saw lance post a while back that basically mimics a single leg jump at full extension...and the only reason i do it is i feel it helps get my glutes,hams and calves firing properly...so yeah i do isos only for firing patterns
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Overcoming isos hit the tendons hard, yielding hits the muscles hard, but they both have horrible transfer to actual dynamic movements imo.. for example, a calf raise iso, you'd be better off just repping out the calf raises on a bar and improving strength through as much of the rom as possible, rather than working different iso angles and hoping it transfers.
adarqui, Is there any links/studies you can provide which backs that up "Overcoming isos hit the tendons hard".
probably a ton on google scholar, but just think about it, if you are pushing/pulling against an immovable object, the muscles can't really change length, so the tendons will deform more, you're pushing/pulling against something that won't move, with intense effort, this is going to cause a ton of "strain" on the tendons.. in a yielding iso, the muscle is constantly changing length (very slightly) as you stabilize yourself/yield position (think about holding a lunge iso and then think about how you slowly drop lower more and more, or at least, have the urge/ability too).
pc
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What about a basketball "aggresive" defensive stance? If I really really play defense and hold that defensive stance, I get sooo tired in the quads and calves... it's really weird. I basically stay in that defensive stance position more or less isometric in nature, with just a small knee/hip angle variation. It's interesting what you guys think about that?
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You guys talking negative about Isos obviously haven't tried ISO EXTREMES. The key is you have to establish a relaxed alpha dominant physchological state and (utilizing super 7 positioning) pull yourself for at least 5 minutes to activate the inherent recriprocal antagonistic neuro feed back mechanisms in your nervous system for the required musculature. Over time this enables your body to literally rewire and reshape itself internally to external. The results in drastically improved force production over a more thorough range of motion, increased FT fiber expression (drastically increased muscularity), increased health, increased vitality, better elimination, and pure domination on the field. The real world results of those who dedicate themselves to iso extremes over a period of time are nothing short of spectacular. Take Jay Schroeder for instance: He went from being an old man with a blown out back to a world class masters level sprinter and cyclist using nothing but iso extremez. The key is you have to dedicate yourself 100% and work proper iso extreme positions every day for several months straight before the miraculous gains suddenly appear. Utilizing iso extreme methodology it's fairly common to go 1 month, 2 months, 3 months with no gains then all the sudden you turn into an athletic superstar overnight as your body, mind, and spirit synchronize in tune with positional mastery.
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You guys talking negative about Isos obviously haven't tried ISO EXTREMES. The key is you have to establish a relaxed alpha dominant physchological state and (utilizing super 7 positioning) pull yourself for at least 5 minutes to activate the inherent recriprocal antagonistic neuro feed back mechanisms in your nervous system for the required musculature. Over time this enables your body to literally rewire and reshape itself internally to external. The results in drastically improved force production over a more thorough range of motion, increased FT fiber expression (drastically increased muscularity), increased health, increased vitality, better elimination, and pure domination on the field. The real world results of those who dedicate themselves to iso extremes over a period of time are nothing short of spectacular. Take Jay Schroeder for instance: He went from being an old man with a blown out back to a world class masters level sprinter and cyclist using nothing but iso extremez. The key is you have to dedicate yourself 100% and work proper iso extreme positions every day for several months straight before the miraculous gains suddenly appear. Utilizing iso extreme methodology it's fairly common to go 1 month, 2 months, 3 months with no gains then all the sudden you turn into an athletic superstar overnight as your body, mind, and spirit synchronize in tune with positional mastery.
is this a joke
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You guys talking negative about Isos obviously haven't tried ISO EXTREMES. The key is you have to establish a relaxed alpha dominant physchological state and (utilizing super 7 positioning) pull yourself for at least 5 minutes to activate the inherent recriprocal antagonistic neuro feed back mechanisms in your nervous system for the required musculature. Over time this enables your body to literally rewire and reshape itself internally to external. The results in drastically improved force production over a more thorough range of motion, increased FT fiber expression (drastically increased muscularity), increased health, increased vitality, better elimination, and pure domination on the field. The real world results of those who dedicate themselves to iso extremes over a period of time are nothing short of spectacular. Take Jay Schroeder for instance: He went from being an old man with a blown out back to a world class masters level sprinter and cyclist using nothing but iso extremez. The key is you have to dedicate yourself 100% and work proper iso extreme positions every day for several months straight before the miraculous gains suddenly appear. Utilizing iso extreme methodology it's fairly common to go 1 month, 2 months, 3 months with no gains then all the sudden you turn into an athletic superstar overnight as your body, mind, and spirit synchronize in tune with positional mastery.
looooooooooool@!$!@$!@
is this a joke
lmfao yes, a very good one at that.
check the jay schroeder call em out thread etc, for some of the backstory on iso extremes, unfortunately the old WGF forum disappeared and so too did the hilarious iso extreme threads.
;)
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There is some info on iso-extremes somewhere, although I can't remember what and where, which was "positive".
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What about a basketball "aggresive" defensive stance?. If I really really play defense and hold that defensive stance, I get sooo tired in the quads and calves... it's really weird. I basically stay in that defensive stance position more or less isometric in nature, with just a small knee/hip angle variation. It's interesting what you guys think about that?
Reminds me of the days when I was trying to progress the Horse stance exercise. You get shoalins doing that for hours. Crazy pain.
(http://0.tqn.com/d/martialarts/1/0/G/-/-/-/horse-stance04.jpg)
As for getting tired in the quads and calves, I would say a lot of that files down to the continuous stop/start running you do in the game. The Horse stance I was doing never put my calf's under strain but running surely does. It's like in sprinting, the drive/acceleration phase (stop/start in basketball) uses much of the quads/calfs, then thereafter, it turns more into more a posterior exercise.
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well, i did shotokahn (however you spell it) karate for ~8 years or so, from around age 8 to 16, with my dad, in a really hard oldschool "dojo".. anyway, we did horse stances every class, we'd be in that stance for a long time, throwing punches/blocks etc.. i became extremely good at it, could hold them forever, but it didn't make me any more powerful that's for sure.. i did that 3x/week for those 8 years.
perhaps it lead to some of my quad dominance, who knows, but, it definitely didn't lead to "powerful quads".
pc
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well, i did shotokahn (however you spell it) karate for ~8 years or so, from around age 8 to 16, with my dad, in a really hard oldschool "dojo".. anyway, we did horse stances every class, we'd be in that stance for a long time, throwing punches/blocks etc.. i became extremely good at it, could hold them forever, but it didn't make me any more powerful that's for sure.. i did that 3x/week for those 8 years.
perhaps it lead to some of my quad dominance, who knows, but, it definitely didn't lead to "powerful quads".
How was your form?, being centred?, straight spine? etc.
Man, I remember the days I started, I couldn't go 60secs before my legs started to shake.
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well, i did shotokahn (however you spell it) karate for ~8 years or so, from around age 8 to 16, with my dad, in a really hard oldschool "dojo".. anyway, we did horse stances every class, we'd be in that stance for a long time, throwing punches/blocks etc.. i became extremely good at it, could hold them forever, but it didn't make me any more powerful that's for sure.. i did that 3x/week for those 8 years.
perhaps it lead to some of my quad dominance, who knows, but, it definitely didn't lead to "powerful quads".
How was your form?, being centred?, straight spine? etc.
Man, I remember the days I started, I couldn't go 60secs before my legs started to shake.
being centered? dno, form was good, i'd get hit with a big weird looking stick if it wasn't (after i graduated past white belt).. ended up brown belt, couldn't get black belt koz you had to spar the sensai 100% to get black belt, this place was pretty hardcore.. it was in 'teh hood' lmao, only white kid at that park.
haha
but ya straight spin, sitting into it, just like you'd see in any shotokahn vids..
ya we'd have to hold it for minutes at a time.. if you rised up you'd come get hit with the stick and get your gi "torn up", just shaked around like you're a bitch.. it's funny looking back.
place was hardcore.. i had to hit girls daily.. hard.. if i didn't hit them full force, or attempt to hit them full force, so that they could learn to block properly, i'd get hit with a stick lmao.
pc
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place was hardcore.. i had to hit girls daily.. hard.. if i didn't hit them full force, or attempt to hit them full force, so that they could learn to block properly, i'd get hit with a stick lmao.
I'm beginning to like that place.
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place was hardcore.. i had to hit girls daily.. hard.. if i didn't hit them full force, or attempt to hit them full force, so that they could learn to block properly, i'd get hit with a stick lmao.
I'm beginning to like that place.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2ytsk0i.jpg)
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You guys talking negative about Isos obviously haven't tried ISO EXTREMES. The key is you have to establish a relaxed alpha dominant physchological state and (utilizing super 7 positioning) pull yourself for at least 5 minutes to activate the inherent recriprocal antagonistic neuro feed back mechanisms in your nervous system for the required musculature. Over time this enables your body to literally rewire and reshape itself internally to external. The results in drastically improved force production over a more thorough range of motion, increased FT fiber expression (drastically increased muscularity), increased health, increased vitality, better elimination, and pure domination on the field. The real world results of those who dedicate themselves to iso extremes over a period of time are nothing short of spectacular. Take Jay Schroeder for instance: He went from being an old man with a blown out back to a world class masters level sprinter and cyclist using nothing but iso extremez. The key is you have to dedicate yourself 100% and work proper iso extreme positions every day for several months straight before the miraculous gains suddenly appear. Utilizing iso extreme methodology it's fairly common to go 1 month, 2 months, 3 months with no gains then all the sudden you turn into an athletic superstar overnight as your body, mind, and spirit synchronize in tune with positional mastery.
Are you actually quoting Jay Schroeder?, or did you make it up?. It's pretty good if you did, but it sounds like something that would come straight from the horses mouth to gloss over his methods.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2ytsk0i.jpg)
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It's just that Carl Lewis would have agreed 'partly' with those type of methods Jay proposes. So do I.
Carl started lifting heavy towards the back end of his career & ran slower.
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It's just that Carl Lewis would have agreed 'partly' with those type of methods Jay proposes. So do I.
Carl started lifting heavy towards the back end of his career & ran slower.
well, it's not like carl lewis wasn't impressive prior to utilizing "iso-like methods", he didn't make a "transformation", he always was elite.. you could correlate the lifting & running slower thing, but, it's most likely just due to age and wear & tear.. lifting was a last ditch effort i imagine, to maintain his power.
elite athletes can do all kinds of stuff and "say it works", ask air up there (AUT) how he gets his hops, he'll say "stretching". So, he would "agreed" with "stretchexpert's methods", which is pretty much just stretching and some other weak shit..
you have to look at the source, if it's an elite athlete who has always been elite or very close to it, completely "natural", then you have to be very wary of what you learn from them.. it's great to watch them move, look at how they produce force, look at how they eat, look at how they get in their 'skill/event work', but most often their actual weight room training or anything that would cause us the biggest adaptations - is severely lacking..
Air Up There has no reason to lift, unless he wants to jump higher..
Adarqui has no reason to lift, unless he wants to jump higher..
______ has no reason to lift, unless _______ wants to jump higher..
that statement covers EVERYONE, regardless of their current level.. someone like AUT could lift and eventually add some serious inches to his already insane vert, but he already jumps crazy high, elite level, so that concept doesn't even factor in.. why train so hard and increase injury risk by using progressive resistance training, when you can just go stretch & dunk and jump 50+.
pc
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well, it's not like carl lewis wasn't impressive prior to utilizing "iso-like methods", he didn't make a "transformation", he always was elite.. you could correlate the lifting & running slower thing, but, it's most likely just due to age and wear & tear.. lifting was a last ditch effort i imagine, to maintain his power.
No doubt he was genetically gifted & fast from a young age, but there still was a lot of progression to be had. He wasn't running 9.8's from the get-go.
I guess in this instance there is more than one way to skin a cat. We saw that with his rivalry with Linford Christie. Two differing training methods.
I think Linford was pushing 700lbs+ in the squat.
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/10/20/article-0-001DFDCA00000258-170_468x808.jpg)(http://images1.makefive.com/images/sports/endurance/top-5-olympians-of-all-time/carl-lewis-7.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54KyNxKi2EY
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carl lewis was on roids................ that was his "progressive resistance routine".. he's failed tests, coverups, people close to him made claims, etc.
:/
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carl lewis was on roids................ that was his "progressive resistance routine".. he's failed tests, coverups, people close to him made claims, etc.
:/
Carl Lewis never tested positive for steroids. Just stimulants. He probably was though. There's at least one instance of USADA covering up a positive test of an athlete who went on to medal in an olympics.
Dr Exum, the former USOC
director for drug control from 1991 to 2000, released more than 30,000 pages of documents to Sports Illustrated. They confirm widespread suspicion of the USOC drug-testing system before it was moved to an independent body, the US Anti Doping Agency, after the Sydney Olympics.
The Herald reported last year that a US athlete tested positive to steroids in 1999 but was allowed to compete - and win an Olympic gold medal - in the 2000 Sydney Games. US officials still refuse to divulge the name of the athlete, or those of 13 other athletes who had failed drug tests around the same time, citing privacy laws.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/17/1050172709693.html
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Are you actually quoting Jay Schroeder?, or did you make it up?. It's pretty good if you did, but it sounds like something that would come straight from the horses mouth to gloss over his methods.
I just made that up. :) If I were quoting Schroeder you woulda seen the word "methodic" in there about 9 or 10 times. That and several other worlds are unique to evo-sport. Go read some of James Colberts posts on the subject sometime for some entertainment.
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Are you actually quoting Jay Schroeder?, or did you make it up?. It's pretty good if you did, but it sounds like something that would come straight from the horses mouth to gloss over his methods.
I just made that up. :) If I were quoting Schroeder you woulda seen the word "methodic" in there about 9 or 10 times. That and several other worlds are unique to evo-sport. Go read some of James Colberts posts on the subject sometime for some entertainment.
Um... wrong quote, I never said that. In fact, it was funny someone thought you were really quoting Schroeder.
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So when doing weighted calf raises, with the goal of trying to improve vertical jump...
Should the principles of reactive strength and RFD be applied here as well?
Should each rep be performed by dropping down, catching yourself and exploding up as fast as possible?
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So when doing weighted calf raises, with the goal of trying to improve vertical jump...
Should the principles of reactive strength and RFD be applied here as well?
Should each rep be performed by dropping down, catching yourself and exploding up as fast as possible?
probably not since you get that through your plyos and jumping...i think the idea is to just strengthen the muscles through progressive overload just like squats...just work on getting the weight up on the lift like any other...tinker with it all later
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Lol. Can't believe high reps are good for the calves. I remember I trained calves straight for two months (around 50 pounds one-legged at the end of it at 20-25 reps per set). It was because I was too poor to buy more weight plates that I started repping high for the calves. XD
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So when doing weighted calf raises, with the goal of trying to improve vertical jump...
Should the principles of reactive strength and RFD be applied here as well?
Should each rep be performed by dropping down, catching yourself and exploding up as fast as possible?
probably not since you get that through your plyos and jumping...i think the idea is to just strengthen the muscles through progressive overload just like squats...just work on getting the weight up on the lift like any other...tinker with it all later
x2
you want to just hit them controlled, no bouncing... no need for bouncing - you can do that through reactive work/sprints/jumps, you want to hit the muscle hard through controlled tension. i'd go with controlled tension on the way down and up, more so on the way up.
pc
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Do calf-raises with your toes elevated on a box or stack of two 45lb plates. If you go all the way up and all the way down where your heel is lower than your toes, you can get a bigger ROM and won't have to do so many damn burning reps to get them to grow. And if you have big feet, this really makes a difference. You can get like 10inches of ROM.
I think I'm going to start doing calf raises again. I think it'll really make a difference in my speed since my calves are small and I'll probably get quick newbie gains out of them. Haven't done calf raises in 2 years I think.
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Do calf-raises with your toes elevated on a box or stack of two 45lb plates.
What about my forte, seated ISO calf raises?.
What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?. Is there any difference in terms of athletic benefit performing a seated calf raise ISO in either foot position (floor/raised on block)?.
I think it'll really make a difference in my speed since my calves are small and I'll probably get quick newbie gains out of them.
Charlie Francis opposed sprinters having big calf's & looking at Usain's, his are far from having lots of mass.
(http://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/usain-bolt1.jpg)
What he does have are achilles/foot tendons with more snap than a Woody band.
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Seated iso calf raise? That pretty much trains the soleus...
You'd be better off using Lance's iso hold while also staying on your toes.
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Do calf-raises with your toes elevated on a box or stack of two 45lb plates.
What about my forte, seated ISO calf raises?.
What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?. Is there any difference in terms of athletic benefit performing a seated calf raise ISO in either foot position (floor/raised on block)?.
I think it'll really make a difference in my speed since my calves are small and I'll probably get quick newbie gains out of them.
Charlie Francis opposed sprinters having big calf's & looking at Usain's, his are far from having lots of mass.
(http://redtreetimes.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/usain-bolt1.jpg)
What he does have are achilles/foot tendons with more snap than a Woody band.
doesn't matter what charlie opposes though, calf size isn't going to change much with training, but strength of the calf certainly can improve greatly.. of course you're going to see sprinter's with smaller calves in general, this indicates they have longer achilles tendons, beneficial to sprinting/jumping etc.
seated calf work hits the soleus much harder than the gastrocs... standing calve raises hit the gastrocs primarily.. toes elevated slightly just allows for greater range of motion under tension.. ROM is very small regardless, so just a small increase in ROM can help lead to more strength gain in the calves, you just can't use an excessive rom (way too high of a block/box).
pc
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What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?.
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Btw, did calf raises today for the first time in 2 years. WOWWW I miss them! With my toes elevated, of course ;)
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What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?.
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Btw, did calf raises today for the first time in 2 years. WOWWW I miss them! With my toes elevated, of course ;)
nice, expect more vert gains than training without implementing them :F
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What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?.
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Btw, did calf raises today for the first time in 2 years. WOWWW I miss them! With my toes elevated, of course ;)
What volume and reps per set?
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What is the difference between having your toes elevated on a box as opposed to just having the feet on the ground in plantar-flexion phase?.
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Btw, did calf raises today for the first time in 2 years. WOWWW I miss them! With my toes elevated, of course ;)
What volume and reps per set?
20 sets of 3000
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More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Thanks Dreyth.
Hopefully somebody can help me out with this next question.
Lets say your doing calf raises in either standing or seated position with the toes elevated on some platform. At which point in the ROM (dorsiflexion/neutral/plantar-flexor) is the Achilles tendon being optimally worked?.
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More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Thanks Dreyth.
Hopefully somebody can help me out with this next question.
Lets say your doing calf raises in either standing or seated position with the toes elevated on some platform. At which point in the ROM (dorsiflexion/neutral/plantar-flexor) is the Achilles tendon being optimally worked?.
the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
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the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
Thanks Lance.
Another thing, When your at the very bottom of the ROM, is your Achilles in it's most lengthened or shortest state?.
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the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
Lance, When your at the very bottom of the ROM, is your Achilles in it's most lengthened or shortest state?.
Its being stretched in dorsi flexion if thats what youre asking, ankle dorsi flexion is considered a useful indicator of achilles tendon length in studies.
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the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
Lance, When your at the very bottom of the ROM, is your Achilles in it's most lengthened or shortest state?.
Strecthed, but if you pause at the bottom for a second or two, it doesn't "spring back" as much. Otherwise, it would be easier to perform calf raises this way (but it ain't ;)).
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the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
Lance, When your at the very bottom of the ROM, is your Achilles in it's most lengthened or shortest state?.
Strecthed, but if you pause at the bottom for a second or two, it doesn't "spring back" as much. Otherwise, it would be easier to perform calf raises this way (but it ain't ;)).
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Thanks Dreyth.
Hopefully somebody can help me out with this next question.
Lets say your doing calf raises in either standing or seated position with the toes elevated on some platform. At which point in the ROM (dorsiflexion/neutral/plantar-flexor) is the Achilles tendon being optimally worked?.
the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
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does calf size really matter. Like if you have a short calf.
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does calf size really matter. Like if you have a short calf.
short answer...nope
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Big calves will pull you down because they move the center of gravity lower. You need a big chest so your center of gravity is higher and the leverage increases. Big gunz ownz
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the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
Lance, When your at the very bottom of the ROM, is your Achilles in it's most lengthened or shortest state?.
Strecthed, but if you pause at the bottom for a second or two, it doesn't "spring back" as much. Otherwise, it would be easier to perform calf raises this way (but it ain't ;)).
More ROM. With your toes elevated, the starting point of the rep can begin in dorsiflexion as opposed to a neutral position (defined here as soles of feet being parallel to the floor) if you don't have them elevated.
Thanks Dreyth.
Hopefully somebody can help me out with this next question.
Lets say your doing calf raises in either standing or seated position with the toes elevated on some platform. At which point in the ROM (dorsiflexion/neutral/plantar-flexor) is the Achilles tendon being optimally worked?.
the achilles tendon will take over any time in the rom when you bounce out of the bottom (however low you go). This is one of the main reason a lot of athletes dont feel like they are gaining much calf size when doing calf raises, if you pause in the bottom, the gastroc/soleus will take the brunt of the work, if you bounce or rebound out, the achilles tendon dominates. Both methods are good, but starting out controlled and slower is the way to go, once you have that base you can get more explosive with them.
just remember,
pause = no bounce!
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does calf size really matter. Like if you have a short calf.
even if it did, why let it in your head? bottom line no, you can jump just as high with huge calves as you can with very short calves (long tendons).. usually the huge-calve people need much stronger hips/thighs though than the people with shorter calves.. but there's a variety of different builds than can achieve elite numbers in sprinting/jumping.
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idk. My bad i meant like how big it is. Like the size of muscle like the size 13 inch compared to 16 inch same length
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idk. My bad i meant like how big it is. Like the size of muscle like the size 13 inch compared to 16 inch same length
well, if that 3 extra inches of muscle results in more strength, then sure it would help produce more power for jumping/sprinting.. pretty hard to add 3 inches circumference to your calves, but sure, they are just like any other muscle.. if glutes grow, more power, if hamstrings/quads grow, more power, etc.. calves are no different.