Author Topic: deadlift start position vs squat  (Read 10332 times)

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Raptor

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2012, 07:38:46 pm »
-1
It would be great for me to do deficit deadlifts, knowing as I can't maintain a straight back in a normal deadlift let alone a deficit one.

Cool!

It's pretty much the same as saying everybody should do high bar ATG squats because everybody should be able to squat like olympic lifters, right?

steven-miller

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2012, 08:05:22 pm »
0
It would be great for me to do deficit deadlifts, knowing as I can't maintain a straight back in a normal deadlift let alone a deficit one.

Cool!

It's pretty much the same as saying everybody should do high bar ATG squats because everybody should be able to squat like olympic lifters, right?

I did not suggest that anybody should do deficit deadlifts. But only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2012, 08:46:39 pm »
0

  Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed.  The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there.  Agree with deficit deads and your points there.
Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2012, 09:43:24 pm »
0

  only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.

 A very good point.
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entropy

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2012, 01:33:03 am »
0

 I was going at this from a sports performance enhancement angle when I replied, if you want to deadlift to get good at it, or to get very strong in the low back then thats a different angle.  

That angle is correct. It remains the main goal, to become as athletic as possible. That's what i've been working towards this year and it's paying off so far. I've even successfully achieved some inverse hypertrophy as well by dilligently avoiding unnecessary exercises such as DLs, weighted chins and Pendlay rows. The questions about the deadlift (or sumo variation) are from the perspective of assisting the squat. I know I risk attaining some unwanted hypetrophy this way, but if it helps my squat I'm perhaps willing to risk it. Would having a strong back help staying up right out of the bottom of the hole? Not tipping forward as much if I have a strong chest and upper back? These are the trade offs im considering. It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.

Quote
You need strong glutes/quads to jump high, and your front squat, squat, do that much better than a deadlift.  You also need strong hamstrings to able to move well and be athletic in general, and the rdl trains this area better than the traditional deadlift imo.  Ive never seen significant performance gain from conventional or sumo deadlifts in jumping or sprinting, other than when the deadlift was used as a cns potentiation tool prior to performance.  Even then there are better methods if athletic movement is the goal.

Understood.

Quote
If you improve your front squat 50 lbs, its almost impossible not to see a gain in vertical jump. Same thing with the back squat IF youre actually squatting with the LEGS, (plenty of knee, hip, ankle flexion) and not just a low back extension with a little hip involvement.  Improving full squat will improve the deadlift, improving the deadlift wont necessitate the same improvement.  Something to think about when selecting exercises for your goals.

 Stick to the plan, gotcha.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 02:36:19 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2012, 03:09:20 am »
+1

That angle is correct. It remains the main goal, to become as athletic as possible. That's what i've been working towards this year and it's paying off so far. I've even successfully achieved some inverse hypertrophy as well by dilligently avoiding unnecessary exercises such as DLs, weighted chins and Pendlay rows. The questions about the deadlift (or sumo variation) are from the perspective of assisting the squat. I know I risk attaining some unwanted hypetrophy this way, but if it helps my squat I'm perhaps willing to risk it. Would having a strong back help staying up right out of the bottom of the hole? Not tipping forward as much if I have a strong chest and upper back? These are the trade offs im considering.

  This is the deal here, when you get your squat form on point, like youre doing now, the staying upright wont be the limiting factor, leg strength will.  Squatting correctly is the most optimal way to improve the squat. Its trained isometrically, in the exact manner you need it to work, in the lift.

  Training the low back even MORE, with added exercises like deadlifts, may contribute to you actually WANTING to lean over more, to get that momentum from the low back out of the hole.  You can have a nice lower back driven squat that wont contribute shit to your sports performance.  Instead of improving your form now, you get better at having a goodmorning squat.

 Many times, excessive forward lean in the squat comes from the quads and glutes being too weak initiate the concentric out of the hole, the lean happens as a result to get into a good morning position and help the lift.  Strengthening the legs more helps this, strengthening the low back at the expense of the legs contributes to it.

I am not saying that the deadlift is an awful exercise, only that in your case I dont think adding it to your program will help you in the way youre thinking it will.  Its already trained well in your well rounded set up.  Its kind of akin to someone saying, " I flare my elbows as wide as possible on bench press and it kills my pecs, I always fail at the chest. Im going to do some pec flys to strengthen my chest, instead of tucking my elbows in some and doing the lift differently."




Quote
It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.

lol.  He would tell you to work on getting that bone density down with zercher  bench presses.

 



Quote
Stick to the plan, gotcha.

yep.  also, shoulda left that pic up, looking stronger and leaner man, nice work.
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2012, 06:45:47 am »
0
But only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.

You're right.

Oh well, back to learning some barbell bosu ball squats.

entropy

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2012, 08:44:15 am »
0

  This is the deal here, when you get your squat form on point, like youre doing now, the staying upright wont be the limiting factor, leg strength will.  Squatting correctly is the most optimal way to improve the squat. Its trained isometrically, in the exact manner you need it to work, in the lift.

  Training the low back even MORE, with added exercises like deadlifts, may contribute to you actually WANTING to lean over more, to get that momentum from the low back out of the hole.  You can have a nice lower back driven squat that wont contribute shit to your sports performance.  Instead of improving your form now, you get better at having a goodmorning squat.

It fits. When I was doing a lot of really ugly heavy GM squats, I was also pulling often and a lot. I would find a way to transfer the squat workload from my weakness (legs) to my strength (lower back and glutes). I had far worse form then than I do now. What I didn't realise until you pointed it out, is that it was caused by the imbalance of PC strength over legs!!

Quote
Many times, excessive forward lean in the squat comes from the quads and glutes being too weak initiate the concentric out of the hole, the lean happens as a result to get into a good morning position and help the lift.  Strengthening the legs more helps this, strengthening the low back at the expense of the legs contributes to it.

That was my exact experience. And since I stopped pulling heavy, my squat form has improved. Coincidence?

Quote
I am not saying that the deadlift is an awful exercise, only that in your case I dont think adding it to your program will help you in the way youre thinking it will.  Its already trained well in your well rounded set up.  Its kind of akin to someone saying, " I flare my elbows as wide as possible on bench press and it kills my pecs, I always fail at the chest. Im going to do some pec flys to strengthen my chest, instead of tucking my elbows in some and doing the lift differently."

Convinced.


Quote
Quote
It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.

lol.  He would tell you to work on getting that bone density down with zercher  bench presses.

hahah the image.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 09:42:50 am by entropy »
Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

steven-miller

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2012, 05:49:56 pm »
0

  Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed.  The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there.  Agree with deficit deads and your points there.

Yeah, I know you were not. For the hamstrings hip extension function the RDL seems to be one of the best exercises.

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2012, 06:42:29 pm »
0

  Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed.  The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there.  Agree with deficit deads and your points there.

Yeah, I know you were not. For the hamstrings hip extension function the RDL seems to be one of the best exercises.

definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old  bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise.  They called it a sldl,  but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom.   He was 6-1  and around 275.  At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the  backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash. 

completely off topic,  but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol.  Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.
Relax.

steven-miller

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2012, 07:48:38 pm »
0
definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old  bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise.  They called it a sldl,  but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom.   He was 6-1  and around 275.  At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the  backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash.  

completely off topic,  but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol.  Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.

Reverse grip power clean? That's neat, especially with close to 400. People should notice that he still powercleaned, not jump squatted :).

Edit: I just noticed the 40 time at 275 bw, that is nasty.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 07:50:34 pm by steven-miller »

Raptor

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2012, 08:00:20 pm »
0
Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2012, 09:45:00 pm »
0
definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old  bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise.  They called it a sldl,  but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom.   He was 6-1  and around 275.  At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the  backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash.  

completely off topic,  but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol.  Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.

Reverse grip power clean? That's neat, especially with close to 400. People should notice that he still powercleaned, not jump squatted :).

Edit: I just noticed the 40 time at 275 bw, that is nasty.

 Yes, he was one of the most impressive athletes at that weight ever, so explosive. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Fernholm

Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2012, 09:49:15 pm »
0
Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?

Lots of times. Google anthony clark
Relax.

Raptor

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Re: deadlift start position vs squat
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2012, 09:59:43 pm »
0
Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?

Lots of times. Google anthony clark

So what's the big idea? Bringing on the culz or something?