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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: entropy on August 05, 2012, 01:38:30 am
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I've heard it said a few times that we don't want to turn the deadlift into a squat. But if the start position of a deadlift looks like a (quarter) squat - why is this bad exactly?
I found out last night I can pull with better form using a slightly wider stance (sumo) and maintain a flatter back from start to finish. With conventional I struggle big time to have a flat back from the start of the pull. The only caveat is that my hips are a bit lower so it looks somewhat like a squat. Now for me the option is not to deadlift at all or to pull squatish with a wider stance. Given that i'm already squatting would you it be redundant to pull this way?
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Depends on what youre using them for, and the way youre performing them. It is very possible to deadlift sumo using primarily a hip hinge movement pattern, as well as a squat movement pattern.
Since youre already squatting, you want a hip hinge in your program as well. If you feel more comfortable sumo, and are still primarily training your glutes and hams with them, then that would be a great fit for you.
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Depends on what youre using them for, and the way youre performing them. It is very possible to deadlift sumo using primarily a hip hinge movement pattern, as well as a squat movement pattern.
I want a stronger lower back, glutes and hamstrings. My sumo deadlift isn't a hip hinge as far as I can tell though. I am wondering if the mere fact that I'm starting the lift from the bottom, without the stretch you'd get from a squat, that it is nevertheless a different enough exercise to keep in my training. But would I be better served doing heavy rack pulls say?
Since youre already squatting, you want a hip hinge in your program as well. If you feel more comfortable sumo, and are still primarily training your glutes and hams with them, then that would be a great fit for you.
I do already have a hip hinge exercise is the RDL, which I do pretty well in terms of form and weight. I'm approaching 1.5BW for a triple and I can do 10 reps with good form with 92.5kg, adding weight each time I do the exercise. I'm not sure if the RDL is a glute and lower back strength builder though.
I guess what i'd like to know is if doing a sumo deadlift that looks like a squat is better than doing no deadlift at all.
For full information - i'm doing backsquat, front squat, RDLs, sprints, jumps as part of lower body training. Bench press, overhead press, chinups, for upper body. Currently not doing any quick lifts although I should be.
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If youre doing rdl and squats, you dont need a deadlift at all. If you like the exercise and feel like it helps you while not detracting from recovery, then there is no reason not to use it either.
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I believe that the conventional deadlift with a flat back is a better builder of lower back strength than the RDL. The position of the lower back at the pull off the floor is very, very hard mechanically and that, in my opinion, is precisely the reason why it is so useful. In the RDL the lower back gets trained, but the position and the shorter ROM make it a lot easier to keep the lower back flat during the entire lift. At least for weight training beginners, for which recovering from "heavy" deadlift work is not that hard to do, I would advise to rather learn to deadlift correctly, than to only do RDLs. For some people this is very hard, i know that from my own training, but I feel like my lower back strength profited a lot from doing technically precise lifts with less weight and progressing conservatively from there than anything else I ever did to increase my pulls and erector strength.
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Sorry I didn't see your post til now steve. In the past when I was cavalier with form and worked up to a DL of 170kgx5 by pulling explosive stifflegged-kind-of with a round back, and I don't know what muscles that worked or where that strength was developed, but i'm cautious about deadlifting with bad form now since i've just overcome long term (~3 years) sciatica and I'm keen on staying healthy and injury free. The thing is when I pulled that way, and i'm likely to pull the same way if I just keep trying to build up my deadlift quickly in the usual fashion (5kg jumps per week for 1x5) then i'm almost certainly going to re-injure my back.
But I would like to learn to deadlift with good form. Maybe I can never use the exercise to actually get strong but for now I just wanna be able to do it properly. I can set the bar down nicely now though which I never did before - RDLs taught me that thankfully. The hard part now is setting up for the pull. I've tried everything, very close to the bar, a bit further, a lot further. Wider stance, narrower stance. Pushing into the floor etc. I've run the gamut and I'm sure there is some key thing i'm missing or maybe i'm just not build to be able to pull conventional, I don't know. But i'll take your advice and pick a conservative weight and then build up reps and consistent form before chasing bigger numbers. Even if my conventional DL is just a backoff set to my sumo, i'll do them as best I can with a weight I can use with good form.
Lance yup I don't think i'm anyway near using a weight for DL which will affect my recovery. I'd have to be pulling over 3 plates for that I think, and i'm not going to try that anytime soon. I could easily go to a gym and pull 3 plates any time I please, but it would be bad form of course. But i'd like to be able to pull 3 plates for reps with perfect form and i'm willing to work at it.
Btw is it a good plan then to pull heavy with sumo with good form, and then do a backoff set with a lighter weight done conventional? That way I still work my upper back and lower back, maybe not as well as conventional but better than not doing any conventional pulls.
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Lance yup I don't think i'm anyway near using a weight for DL which will affect my recovery. I'd have to be pulling over 3 plates for that I think, and i'm not going to try that anytime soon. I could easily go to a gym and pull 3 plates any time I please, but it would be bad form of course. But i'd like to be able to pull 3 plates for reps with perfect form and i'm willing to work at it.
Btw is it a good plan then to pull heavy with sumo with good form, and then do a backoff set with a lighter weight done conventional? That way I still work my upper back and lower back, maybe not as well as conventional but better than not doing any conventional pulls.
I was going at this from a sports performance enhancement angle when I replied, if you want to deadlift to get good at it, or to get very strong in the low back then thats a different angle.
You need strong glutes/quads to jump high, and your front squat, squat, do that much better than a deadlift. You also need strong hamstrings to able to move well and be athletic in general, and the rdl trains this area better than the traditional deadlift imo. Ive never seen significant performance gain from conventional or sumo deadlifts in jumping or sprinting, other than when the deadlift was used as a cns potentiation tool prior to performance. Even then there are better methods if athletic movement is the goal.
If you improve your front squat 50 lbs, its almost impossible not to see a gain in vertical jump. Same thing with the back squat IF youre actually squatting with the LEGS, (plenty of knee, hip, ankle flexion) and not just a low back extension with a little hip involvement. Improving full squat will improve the deadlift, improving the deadlift wont necessitate the same improvement. Something to think about when selecting exercises for your goals.
You can for sure learn to pull conventional with good form if thats what you want to do just to do it, I would try and not get caught up in the typical powerlifter dogma while doing so though. It is interesting, that the exact fucking perfect height to deadlift from was determined by iron plate manufacturers many years ago when randomly selecting the size of the 45 pound plates. ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN THIS HEIGHT AND ITS NOT A FUCKING DEADLIFT AND YOU WILL RECEIVE NO TRAINING EFFECT WHATSOEVER.
So, yea, its fun to deadlift sometimes, just evaluate the NEED for them when looking at your priorities and goals. Youre making real good progress atm and already have a pretty solid set up. I dont think a few sets of lighter deadlifts will hurt too much if thats all youre planning on implementing.
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Love the sarcasm.
Damn, you're improving as the day passes in sarcasm, Lance!
The reality is that "strength people" have such narrow views of training... people never have an open mind and actually THINK about stuff. It's sad that we don't have more open minded SMART people that think.
We usually have either the close minded "it's 3x5 exactly as Rippetoe said or it's wrong" or "we need to squat with chains and have two ketlebells attached using bands on a bosu ball with a weight vest and a powerjumper in order to have any "functional" training effect".
So they either are very close minded, or they are very... "flamboyant" in their approach. We need more people in the middle ground when it comes to training.
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lance:
my gym has 45 lb plates of three different heights, and also 20kg plates, which are slightly different. which plates should i use for maximum training effect?
sincerely,
hyperdunk1 and pointerryan
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lance:
my gym has 45 lb plates of three different heights, and also 20kg plates, which are slightly different. which plates should i use for maximum training effect?
sincerely,
hyperdunk1 and pointerryan
I lol'd irl
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I have 20 kg plates and 25 kg plates in my gym. I think the 25 kg plates are the bigger (have the longest diameter) so I actually use them for deadlifts.
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I have 20 kg plates and 25 kg plates in my gym. I think the 25 kg plates are the bigger (have the longest diameter) so I actually use them for deadlifts.
Good luck getting ANYTHING out of that, Raptor.
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I have 20 kg plates and 25 kg plates in my gym. I think the 25 kg plates are the bigger (have the longest diameter) so I actually use them for deadlifts.
Good luck getting ANYTHING out of that, Raptor.
Wait... so this is why I was stalling?!
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I do not think that the height of a standard deadlift has anything special to it. But it has a larger ROM compared to the RDL and involves a mechanically harder position at the bottom. One might argue that deadlifts from a deficit are even better because they involve an even greater ROM. The optimal degree of the deficit for building lower back strength would be determined by individual anthropometry. The bar would be placed at the height that puts the hips on shoulder level, so that the back becomes horizontal to the ground. The lift would then start, from a dead stop, at the mechanically hardest position and would have the largest useful ROM, having the back angle go all the way from parallel to the ground to completely upright. For many people a standard height deadlift is actually not that far from that model and using bars with a diameter available everywhere is certainly convenient. But I am not saying that one arbitrarily determined diameter is optimal for everyones training. I just think that for lower back strength specifically a strong argument can be made in favor of the deadlift over the RDL. Whether the latter is superior in regards to athletic events less depending on a strong back I cannot comment on.
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I do not think that the height of a standard deadlift has anything special to it. But it has a larger ROM compared to the RDL and involves a mechanically harder position at the bottom. One might argue that deadlifts from a deficit are even better because they involve an even greater ROM. The optimal degree of the deficit for building lower back strength would be determined by individual anthropometry. The bar would be placed at the height that puts the hips on shoulder level, so that the back becomes horizontal to the ground. The lift would then start, from a dead stop, at the mechanically hardest position and would have the largest useful ROM, having the back angle go all the way from parallel to the ground to completely upright. For many people a standard height deadlift is actually not that far from that model and using bars with a diameter available everywhere is certainly convenient. But I am not saying that one arbitrarily determined diameter is optimal for everyones training. I just think that for lower back strength specifically a strong argument can be made in favor of the deadlift over the RDL. Whether the latter is superior in regards to athletic events less depending on a strong back I cannot comment on.
shortest wall of text i've ever seen, but still...
(http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/WALL_OF_TEXT.jpg)
break up your paragraphs, b. more people would read what you write.
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It would be great for me to do deficit deadlifts, knowing as I can't maintain a straight back in a normal deadlift let alone a deficit one.
Cool!
It's pretty much the same as saying everybody should do high bar ATG squats because everybody should be able to squat like olympic lifters, right?
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It would be great for me to do deficit deadlifts, knowing as I can't maintain a straight back in a normal deadlift let alone a deficit one.
Cool!
It's pretty much the same as saying everybody should do high bar ATG squats because everybody should be able to squat like olympic lifters, right?
I did not suggest that anybody should do deficit deadlifts. But only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.
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Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed. The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there. Agree with deficit deads and your points there.
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only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.
A very good point.
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I was going at this from a sports performance enhancement angle when I replied, if you want to deadlift to get good at it, or to get very strong in the low back then thats a different angle.
That angle is correct. It remains the main goal, to become as athletic as possible. That's what i've been working towards this year and it's paying off so far. I've even successfully achieved some inverse hypertrophy as well by dilligently avoiding unnecessary exercises such as DLs, weighted chins and Pendlay rows. The questions about the deadlift (or sumo variation) are from the perspective of assisting the squat. I know I risk attaining some unwanted hypetrophy this way, but if it helps my squat I'm perhaps willing to risk it. Would having a strong back help staying up right out of the bottom of the hole? Not tipping forward as much if I have a strong chest and upper back? These are the trade offs im considering. It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.
You need strong glutes/quads to jump high, and your front squat, squat, do that much better than a deadlift. You also need strong hamstrings to able to move well and be athletic in general, and the rdl trains this area better than the traditional deadlift imo. Ive never seen significant performance gain from conventional or sumo deadlifts in jumping or sprinting, other than when the deadlift was used as a cns potentiation tool prior to performance. Even then there are better methods if athletic movement is the goal.
Understood.
If you improve your front squat 50 lbs, its almost impossible not to see a gain in vertical jump. Same thing with the back squat IF youre actually squatting with the LEGS, (plenty of knee, hip, ankle flexion) and not just a low back extension with a little hip involvement. Improving full squat will improve the deadlift, improving the deadlift wont necessitate the same improvement. Something to think about when selecting exercises for your goals.
Stick to the plan, gotcha.
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That angle is correct. It remains the main goal, to become as athletic as possible. That's what i've been working towards this year and it's paying off so far. I've even successfully achieved some inverse hypertrophy as well by dilligently avoiding unnecessary exercises such as DLs, weighted chins and Pendlay rows. The questions about the deadlift (or sumo variation) are from the perspective of assisting the squat. I know I risk attaining some unwanted hypetrophy this way, but if it helps my squat I'm perhaps willing to risk it. Would having a strong back help staying up right out of the bottom of the hole? Not tipping forward as much if I have a strong chest and upper back? These are the trade offs im considering.
This is the deal here, when you get your squat form on point, like youre doing now, the staying upright wont be the limiting factor, leg strength will. Squatting correctly is the most optimal way to improve the squat. Its trained isometrically, in the exact manner you need it to work, in the lift.
Training the low back even MORE, with added exercises like deadlifts, may contribute to you actually WANTING to lean over more, to get that momentum from the low back out of the hole. You can have a nice lower back driven squat that wont contribute shit to your sports performance. Instead of improving your form now, you get better at having a goodmorning squat.
Many times, excessive forward lean in the squat comes from the quads and glutes being too weak initiate the concentric out of the hole, the lean happens as a result to get into a good morning position and help the lift. Strengthening the legs more helps this, strengthening the low back at the expense of the legs contributes to it.
I am not saying that the deadlift is an awful exercise, only that in your case I dont think adding it to your program will help you in the way youre thinking it will. Its already trained well in your well rounded set up. Its kind of akin to someone saying, " I flare my elbows as wide as possible on bench press and it kills my pecs, I always fail at the chest. Im going to do some pec flys to strengthen my chest, instead of tucking my elbows in some and doing the lift differently."
It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.
lol. He would tell you to work on getting that bone density down with zercher bench presses.
Stick to the plan, gotcha.
yep. also, shoulda left that pic up, looking stronger and leaner man, nice work.
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But only doing what you can do already is a great way to never learn anything.
You're right.
Oh well, back to learning some barbell bosu ball squats.
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This is the deal here, when you get your squat form on point, like youre doing now, the staying upright wont be the limiting factor, leg strength will. Squatting correctly is the most optimal way to improve the squat. Its trained isometrically, in the exact manner you need it to work, in the lift.
Training the low back even MORE, with added exercises like deadlifts, may contribute to you actually WANTING to lean over more, to get that momentum from the low back out of the hole. You can have a nice lower back driven squat that wont contribute shit to your sports performance. Instead of improving your form now, you get better at having a goodmorning squat.
It fits. When I was doing a lot of really ugly heavy GM squats, I was also pulling often and a lot. I would find a way to transfer the squat workload from my weakness (legs) to my strength (lower back and glutes). I had far worse form then than I do now. What I didn't realise until you pointed it out, is that it was caused by the imbalance of PC strength over legs!!
Many times, excessive forward lean in the squat comes from the quads and glutes being too weak initiate the concentric out of the hole, the lean happens as a result to get into a good morning position and help the lift. Strengthening the legs more helps this, strengthening the low back at the expense of the legs contributes to it.
That was my exact experience. And since I stopped pulling heavy, my squat form has improved. Coincidence?
I am not saying that the deadlift is an awful exercise, only that in your case I dont think adding it to your program will help you in the way youre thinking it will. Its already trained well in your well rounded set up. Its kind of akin to someone saying, " I flare my elbows as wide as possible on bench press and it kills my pecs, I always fail at the chest. Im going to do some pec flys to strengthen my chest, instead of tucking my elbows in some and doing the lift differently."
Convinced.
It's dark times like this I wish I could call upon the advice of adarqui but alas Brian Kernigan and Dennis Richie take another victim, even beyond the grave.
lol. He would tell you to work on getting that bone density down with zercher bench presses.
hahah the image.
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Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed. The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there. Agree with deficit deads and your points there.
Yeah, I know you were not. For the hamstrings hip extension function the RDL seems to be one of the best exercises.
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Steven, I wasnt mocking your reply there I was referring to standard dogma that comes up when this topic is discussed. The rdl has a greater rom for the hamstrings, and if that is what youre trying to train, they win out there. Agree with deficit deads and your points there.
Yeah, I know you were not. For the hamstrings hip extension function the RDL seems to be one of the best exercises.
definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise. They called it a sldl, but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom. He was 6-1 and around 275. At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash.
completely off topic, but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol. Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.
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definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise. They called it a sldl, but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom. He was 6-1 and around 275. At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash.
completely off topic, but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol. Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.
Reverse grip power clean? That's neat, especially with close to 400. People should notice that he still powercleaned, not jump squatted :).
Edit: I just noticed the 40 time at 275 bw, that is nasty.
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Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?
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definitely. I remember Stephan Fernholm on the old bfs group saying he attributed a ton of his gains in athleticism to that exercise. They called it a sldl, but what he was actually doing in his videos was much closer to an rdl elevated for extra rom. He was 6-1 and around 275. At one of the seminars he continuously hit his cheeks against the backboard, and had a 39 inch standing vert, 4.3 40yd dash.
completely off topic, but he had a wrist sprain, so instead of a power clean, he did a reverse grip power clean with 390 lol. Literally power cleaned the weight to his shoulders with a curl grip, got very little to no arm help in the lift.
Reverse grip power clean? That's neat, especially with close to 400. People should notice that he still powercleaned, not jump squatted :).
Edit: I just noticed the 40 time at 275 bw, that is nasty.
Yes, he was one of the most impressive athletes at that weight ever, so explosive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Fernholm
(http://www.biggerfasterstronger.com/p_istream.asp?filename=uploads2/409_image_large.jpg&width=200)
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Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?
Lots of times. Google anthony clark
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Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?
Lots of times. Google anthony clark
So what's the big idea? Bringing on the culz or something?
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Speaking of weirdness - I saw a guy doing supinated bench presses a few days ago at my gym. Has anybody ever seen such a thing?
Lots of times. Google anthony clark
So what's the big idea? Bringing on the culz or something?
more triceps, less pectorals.