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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: ccameron on April 13, 2011, 09:53:24 pm
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My university's s@c department likes to use exercise selection and programming that I find questionable at best, they seem to like using the concurrent method with fullbody workouts and some "functional" training stuff. Anyway in one of the lower body strength days prescribed for the rugby team they had them doing heavy back squat negatives with 110% max for four reps, having two spotters assist the weight back up to the starting position.
My thoughts are that if you are weak enough to be able to recover from this sort of training you might as well stick to a simple linear progression and not worry about anything fancy. And if you are strong enough to benefit or need some kind of supramaximal training stimulus you would just burn yourself out and it would be incredibly dangerous to both you and the spotters. :uhhhfacepalm:
Is there any actual benefit from this type of training or have they gone full retard on this one?
(http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/robertdjr.jpg)
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I think your thoughts are well fonded. You should replace those people.
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There are not many sports that require heavy eccentric contractions more than skilled concentric contractions so excessive eccentric work would thus be contraindicated.
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There are not many sports that require heavy eccentric contractions more than skilled concentric contractions so excessive eccentric work would thus be contraindicated.
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There are not many sports that require heavy eccentric contractions more than skilled concentric contractions so excessive eccentric work would thus be contraindicated.
I think anything with sprinting or jumping requires heavy eccentric contractions? I can kinda see what you mean by super heavy weight room eccentrics not having great carryover if that's what you're getting at though?
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yeah i'm with you on this one. heavy/supramax eccentrics make no sense unless you're rehabbing from tendinosis. then there's some evidence that they can be a big help. but i don't think supramax squats are worth it. seems like fanciness for the sake of it, when you should just be doing normal squats.
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yeah i'm with you on this one. heavy/supramax eccentrics make no sense unless you're rehabbing from tendinosis. then there's some evidence that they can be a big help. but i don't think supramax squats are worth it. seems like fanciness for the sake of it, when you should just be doing normal squats.
yeah...and they'd be better off just using depth jumps and depth drops
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yeah...and they'd be better off just using depth jumps and depth drops
Speaking of which one of the phases I've seen did have altitude drops. . .from a regular bench. . . with a 45lb plate in your hands. . .at the end of your workout.
I'm volunteering and hoping to get an internship there next year so hopefully I'll be able to learn some of the rational behind this stuff and try to convince them otherwise.
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yeah...and they'd be better off just using depth jumps and depth drops
Speaking of which one of the phases I've seen did have altitude drops. . .from a regular bench. . . with a 45lb plate in your hands. . .at the end of your workout.
I'm volunteering and hoping to get an internship there next year so hopefully I'll be able to learn some of the rational behind this stuff and try to convince them otherwise.
Now why in the world would someone do that? Maybe if you don't have a higher box or something, but still
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What do we really know about eccentric (lowering) work? The eccentric phase causes most muscular soreness. This causes much of the burn that bodybuilders talk about. The eccentric phase, when performed slowly, greatly contributes to muscle hypertrophy (growth). We also know that in an attempt to raise absolute strength, eccentric training alone fails miserably. In the late 1970s, Mike Bridges experimented with eccentric bench pressing. He told me that the only result he got from eccentrics was a pec injury. This is confirmed by research that shows that most injuries occur during the yielding, or eccentric, phase. Vince Anello also experimented with eccentric work, doing eccentric deadlifts with as much as 880. When he returned to conventional deadlifts, to his dismay his deadlift had decreased. Vince told me that anything will make your deadlift go up--except eccentrics. What does this mean? Are eccentrics a waste? Well, yes and no. Eccentric training alone is a waste. However, a strength-shortening cycle, eccentric training followed by a concentric phase, can be very beneficial when done correctly, i.e., with optimal speed.
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yeah...and they'd be better off just using depth jumps and depth drops
Speaking of which one of the phases I've seen did have altitude drops. . .from a regular bench. . . with a 45lb plate in your hands. . .at the end of your workout.
I'm volunteering and hoping to get an internship there next year so hopefully I'll be able to learn some of the rational behind this stuff and try to convince them otherwise.
Now why in the world would someone do that? Maybe if you don't have a higher box or something, but still
dunnolol we've got decent sized plyo boxes
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My university's s@c department likes to use exercise selection and programming that I find questionable at best, they seem to like using the concurrent method with fullbody workouts and some "functional" training stuff. Anyway in one of the lower body strength days prescribed for the rugby team they had them doing heavy back squat negatives with 110% max for four reps, having two spotters assist the weight back up to the starting position.
well, having spotters help assist the weight back up is extra dangerous.. if it's a true negative (above 100% 1RM, 100-130%) then that unequal support from the spotters could be extremely dangerous.
My thoughts are that if you are weak enough to be able to recover from this sort of training you might as well stick to a simple linear progression and not worry about anything fancy. And if you are strong enough to benefit or need some kind of supramaximal training stimulus you would just burn yourself out and it would be incredibly dangerous to both you and the spotters. :uhhhfacepalm:
well, negatives can actually be useful but they are an advanced method, great caution needs to be used when implementing them.. you're always stronger eccentrically than concentrically at any point in the range of movement, up to about 130%, so, they can be an effective tool for improving strength.. eccentric only training produces significant gains in eccentric AND concentric strength.. concentric only training leads to very minimial or zero gains in eccentric strength.. so that's a pretty important concept to understand.
i don't really consider controlled negatives supramaximal, because your body can handle that tension (up to 130% of 1RM), so it's supramaximal in the sense that it is compared to concentric force production ability, but not eccentric.
most people shouldn't be playing with negatives though, regular lifts or accomodating resistance via bands is all you really need in terms of lifting.. if you want to provice 'supramaximal stimulus' eccentrically, just incorporate single leg bounds or depth jumps, possibly even some overspeed sprinting in wind-aided environment or 3 degree decline slope..
Is there any actual benefit from this type of training or have they gone full retard on this one?
(http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/robertdjr.jpg)
what i said above, but, in addition..
if they are incorporating normal lifts as well, isotonic, then the eccentrics could provide some pretty significant stimulus for strength gains.. but these would have to be advanced athletes and i doubt they are, especially considering spotters are helping to lift the way back up.. when people perform negatives they usually do them for single efforts where the bar is dropped and then weight taken off/set back on pins and repeated, or weighted releasers are used to deload weight at the bottom so you can lift the way back up, then reapply weight releasers, and finally using accommodating resistance using bands/chains. which is sort of like a negative but it matches the strength curve, so u can rep it out there.
repping out negatives, spotter aided, is full on retard for sure.
peace man
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Sweet thanks for the info man, I completely forgot about weight releasers!
edit: it seems strange to me that an athlete would have minimal eccentric strength gains from concentric only training. If someone made giant gains in their deadlift say 400lbs, something way beyond the extra 30% strength of eccentric contraction and whatever minimal eccentric gains they get since they dropped the bar at the top on each rep. Would it be possible that they couldn't at all lower their max deadlift?
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Sweet thanks for the info man, I completely forgot about weight releasers!
edit: it seems strange to me that an athlete would have minimal eccentric strength gains from concentric only training. If someone made giant gains in their deadlift say 400lbs, something way beyond the extra 30% strength of eccentric contraction and whatever minimal eccentric gains they get since they dropped the bar at the top on each rep. Would it be possible that they couldn't at all lower their max deadlift?
Yeah exactly... if I train 3 months using deadlifts and dropping the bar at the top (so concentric only) and raise my deadlift from 100 to 160 kg, I find it hard to believe (impossible to believe) I won't be able to lower the 160 kg bar down to the floor.
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Sweet thanks for the info man, I completely forgot about weight releasers!
edit: it seems strange to me that an athlete would have minimal eccentric strength gains from concentric only training. If someone made giant gains in their deadlift say 400lbs, something way beyond the extra 30% strength of eccentric contraction and whatever minimal eccentric gains they get since they dropped the bar at the top on each rep. Would it be possible that they couldn't at all lower their max deadlift?
Yeah exactly... if I train 3 months using deadlifts and dropping the bar at the top (so concentric only) and raise my deadlift from 100 to 160 kg, I find it hard to believe (impossible to believe) I won't be able to lower the 160 kg bar down to the floor.
I would agree, but would also argue that you would be able to faster increase your strength if you include the eccentric portion because of increases in muscle size leading to more strength anyway. Also, it'll increase your work capactiy, and therefore allowing you to do more reps which has a larger training effect.
To refute that though, you can say you can do more reps with only concentric contractions anyway...
This is interesting, I feel like I want to do an experiment.
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Think of what really happens: The eccentric describes the external observation of the movement taking place but when muscles contract they shorten. Thus the muscular contractions are still concentric in nature. An eccentric contraction describes an eccentric motion (negative) where the muscle fires concentrically enough to prevent free fall. In other words, if you're doing an eccentric squat you use enough positive tension (concentric firing) to control the weight on the way down.
A better name for eccentric strength IMO would be eccentric control, since control is all that is really happening.
when a muscle is lengthened and contracts under tension a stretch is likely to result, which explains why eccentrics are more damaging. When a weight can't be controlled and an involuntary stretch under tension results the result can be catastrophic. This is a problem with focused eccentrics as the proper definition of "control" is often open to interpretation.
You can lower more weight than you can raise so training with focused eccentrics is really just an attempt at supramaximal loading. A weight that can be maximally lifted concentrically will likely be too light to even challenge maximal eccentric control (depending on how you define it), which explains why concentric only training doesn't always impact eccentric strength.....it depends on the movement but in general it's not heavy enough.
However, in my experience, with very few exceptions the use of stuff like pure eccentrics is little more than an attempt by theoreticians at doing something cutting edge. The likelihood of the results being any better than any other garden variety programing is nil, and the risk of injury is greater. Plus, the ability to control a weight changes dramatically depending on what point of the movement you're talking about. Most blowtards will overestimate what they can do and when they hit the transition point of a movement (CJC) they'll lose control of the weight and will end up tearing something - or at the very least be sore for days. If you're gonna do eccentrics a better way to do them is find the maximal amount of weight you can lower and hold completely motionless for 3 to 5 seconds at the toughest part of the movement. Right at or just below parallel in the squat and right below the midpoint in the bench. Use that weight as your maximum. Your mileage may vary but that can be an effective training method and it can/does work well for deadlifts