Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on April 02, 2011, 07:02:14 pm
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I had this crazy idea come to my mind some few days ago: what if you're a guy who has his own squat rack/barbell to himself? Would unracking a 1RM+ barbell, holding it on your back for say 30 seconds, and racking it back, every day, for a few times per day, do anything?
I mean, it could trick your CNS into thinking you're heavier, just like a weight vest would. Now obviously there are a handful of questions arising (is there enough time under the bar to make this adaptation occur? is it too risky on the spine? etc) but I thought it was an interesting experiment to take if someone is willing to do it.
For example, if your squat 1RM is 300 lbs and you unrack a 350 lbs bar 10 times per day (throughout the day) for 30 s each time, you'd end up with 300s of total "unrack" TUT daily, so that' 2100 s each week of having a 1RM+ barbell on your back. That's 35 minutes of stimulation per week with a heavier barbell than usual. Not to mention the core strength benefits.
Again, it comes down to injury risk vs. reward possibility.
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no
lol
just squat!
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I did not read, because you do not need to read shit like that.. I am an idiot and know there are no shortcuts..Just get the bar and squat with it, Fucking simple...
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I wasn't talking about any shortcut, I was talking about a POSSIBLE stimulating thing. Whether that's feasible or not is debatable, hence this topic.
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wear a weight vest the whole day...jump at end
problem solved
p.s. I have no idea if this works/injury risks
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I had this crazy idea come to my mind some few days ago: what if you're a guy who has his own squat rack/barbell to himself? Would unracking a 1RM+ barbell, holding it on your back for say 30 seconds, and racking it back, every day, for a few times per day, do anything?
I mean, it could trick your CNS into thinking you're heavier, just like a weight vest would. Now obviously there are a handful of questions arising (is there enough time under the bar to make this adaptation occur? is it too risky on the spine? etc) but I thought it was an interesting experiment to take if someone is willing to do it.
For example, if your squat 1RM is 300 lbs and you unrack a 350 lbs bar 10 times per day (throughout the day) for 30 s each time, you'd end up with 300s of total "unrack" TUT daily, so that' 2100 s each week of having a 1RM+ barbell on your back. That's 35 minutes of stimulation per week with a heavier barbell than usual. Not to mention the core strength benefits.
Again, it comes down to injury risk vs. reward possibility.
Thats probably a little high frequency to do it, but Fred Hatfield used to do something similar at the end of every squat workout on his way to a 1000lb + squat. He would put something like 110 percent 1rm on the bar, unrack, and hold for a brief period. For squatting it helps build confidence with heavier weights and helps with the walk out, which can be a HUGE factor once you get up in weight, it also has some psychological benefits as your work weights will tend to not feel so heavy coming off the rack.
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Yeah, Fred Hatfield was exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote this. I don't think anybody knows if this would work or not because nobody tried to high-frequency do it.
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I did not read, because you do not need to read shit like that.. I am an idiot and know there are no shortcuts..Just get the bar and squat with it, Fucking simple...
(http://images.stanzapub.com/readers/2008/08/30/four_1.gif)
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Thats probably a little high frequency to do it, but Fred Hatfield used to do something similar at the end of every squat workout on his way to a 1000lb + squat. He would put something like 110 percent 1rm on the bar, unrack, and hold for a brief period. For squatting it helps build confidence with heavier weights and helps with the walk out, which can be a HUGE factor once you get up in weight, it also has some psychological benefits as your work weights will tend to not feel so heavy coming off the rack.
x2
I've read stuff about lifters doing this sort of thing. It makes sense because 2.5x + BW is a ton of weight resting on your shoulders. Your skeletal system has to be able to support it safely, so you have to build up a tolerance to the weight. Also when on great lifting days, 315+ will feel like 135, and that is a huge psychological boost; even though I'm not stronger, I feel like I am.
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Just do some occassional half or quarter squat reps or workouts and itll have the same effect. Supramaximal supports or walkouts can be very hard on the body if you're not real careful. The only time I can remember acutely injuring myself in the weight room was doing this workout from Poliquin about 14 years ago:
http://vuesdumonde.forumactif.com/t7998-heavy-supports
He says to use 200% 1rm but I think I was only using 135%. I cant imagine anyone using a legit 200%. On one set the bar shifted ever so slightly out of place and I had to struggle a bit to get it back on the rack. I never felt anything wrong during the workout but later that night and the next day I was literally glued to the bed and couldnt move....Id evidently severely strained a ligament in my back.
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Just do some occassional half or quarter squat reps or workouts and itll have the same effect. Supramaximal supports or walkouts can be very hard on the body if you're not real careful. The only time I can remember acutely injuring myself in the weight room was doing this workout from Poliquin about 14 years ago:
http://vuesdumonde.forumactif.com/t7998-heavy-supports
He says to use 200% 1rm but I think I was only using 135%. I cant imagine anyone using a legit 200%. On one set the bar shifted ever so slightly out of place and I had to struggle a bit to get it back on the rack. I never felt anything wrong during the workout but later that night and the next day I was literally glued to the bed and couldnt move....Id evidently severely strained a ligament in my back.
scarey chit kelly!
putting out a new article any time soon?
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I had this crazy idea come to my mind some few days ago: what if you're a guy who has his own squat rack/barbell to himself? Would unracking a 1RM+ barbell, holding it on your back for say 30 seconds, and racking it back, every day, for a few times per day, do anything?
I mean, it could trick your CNS into thinking you're heavier, just like a weight vest would. Now obviously there are a handful of questions arising (is there enough time under the bar to make this adaptation occur? is it too risky on the spine? etc) but I thought it was an interesting experiment to take if someone is willing to do it.
For example, if your squat 1RM is 300 lbs and you unrack a 350 lbs bar 10 times per day (throughout the day) for 30 s each time, you'd end up with 300s of total "unrack" TUT daily, so that' 2100 s each week of having a 1RM+ barbell on your back. That's 35 minutes of stimulation per week with a heavier barbell than usual. Not to mention the core strength benefits.
Again, it comes down to injury risk vs. reward possibility.
well, regardless of whether it tricks your cns into thinking you're heavier or not, dno, but, it would make you stronger in the quads/erectors if you phased it in/out properly, it would definitely make the bar feel lighter.. 10x/day is a bit much possibly, but who knows.. a walkout is not that cns intensive, holding it for time definitely is though.. so there's a variety of things you could do such as hold for time, unrack/walkout/walkback/re-rack, or unrack/rack quickly.
frequency would have to be adjusted based on how you feel, not sure how it would effect jumping, i'd imagine it would very up and down how it effects you... vmo's would probably get really big heh..
#1 thing would be safety, i'd only do it in a rack with high safeties..
you also need some good form gripping the bar, you can't do that if squatting bugs your shoulders in the least.
peace
edit: i like parts of the idea but not the holding for time part, and 10x/day could be too much.. but stuff like that should be effective.
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oh and yeah i dunno how much you should do it but i always thought walk outs with added weight was a good idea for potentiation
try it out man and elt us all know
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you also need some good form gripping the bar, you can't do that if squatting bugs your shoulders in the least.
peace
i guess i wont try this then hahaha
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I still don't get this VMO stuff. For a lot of time I thought the VMO is activated at the top of the squat movement (say 1/8 squat range). Then everybody was talking about how the VMO is actually activated with deep squats. Now, you (Andrew) say it would be stimulated by unracking, so that's the opposite of deep squatting. Not sure what to believe anymore.
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I had this crazy idea come to my mind some few days ago: what if you're a guy who has his own squat rack/barbell to himself? Would unracking a 1RM+ barbell, holding it on your back for say 30 seconds, and racking it back, every day, for a few times per day, do anything?
I mean, it could trick your CNS into thinking you're heavier, just like a weight vest would. Now obviously there are a handful of questions arising (is there enough time under the bar to make this adaptation occur? is it too risky on the spine? etc) but I thought it was an interesting experiment to take if someone is willing to do it.
For example, if your squat 1RM is 300 lbs and you unrack a 350 lbs bar 10 times per day (throughout the day) for 30 s each time, you'd end up with 300s of total "unrack" TUT daily, so that' 2100 s each week of having a 1RM+ barbell on your back. That's 35 minutes of stimulation per week with a heavier barbell than usual. Not to mention the core strength benefits.
Again, it comes down to injury risk vs. reward possibility.
well, regardless of whether it tricks your cns into thinking you're heavier or not, dno, but, it would make you stronger in the quads/erectors if you phased it in/out properly, it would definitely make the bar feel lighter.. 10x/day is a bit much possibly, but who knows.. a walkout is not that cns intensive, holding it for time definitely is though.. so there's a variety of things you could do such as hold for time, unrack/walkout/walkback/re-rack, or unrack/rack quickly.
frequency would have to be adjusted based on how you feel, not sure how it would effect jumping, i'd imagine it would very up and down how it effects you... vmo's would probably get really big heh..
#1 thing would be safety, i'd only do it in a rack with high safeties..
you also need some good form gripping the bar, you can't do that if squatting bugs your shoulders in the least.
peace
edit: i like parts of the idea but not the holding for time part, and 10x/day could be too much.. but stuff like that should be effective.
normal squatting would be better for this, especially for squatting
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Except for the fact that normal squatting (even 1/4 squats) would give you soreness because of the eccentric portion of the lift. And if you go with concentric only squats, there's still going to be fatigue. I was talking pretty much in terms if CNS adaptations.
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I'm 100% sure that you aren't too weak muscular wise to squat a lot more weight than you can atm! You just need to practice more!
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i'm starting to love this idea... the "high frequency unracking + walkout + hold for ~5s + re-rack" aspect of it.. not holding for max time or anything.. i feel really good after working up to some heavy unracking weights.. for example last night just unracked 385 on my top set, tonight 405, but just feel so good after.. yesterday i didn't squat, simply did the unracking, legs felt very good today but they were going to anyway, but i felt like i had squatted the day before.. tonight i did 295 x 10 then worked up to the 405 unrack.. really loving this idea.
props
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Yeah I think people need to find the proper variation to it in terms of time. I mean think about it - if you do 5s unracks that can't possibly "hurt" you (other than maybe if you get injured by using too much weight or something) but what I mean by hurt is having a negative influence on power/strength production. For such a small time window, it's gotta have only a stim effect for the CNS (like "hey, I just got fatter by 400 lbs, how about you give me some extra power to be able to survive" kind of effect).
If you do it often (that's to be discovered, what "often" should mean for anybody) over and over and over in time, then the CNS should be able to "accept" and "consider normal" such a level of sudden electrical output in the body. It's like a depth jump basically (but obviously different in terms of signal speed and amount of time that signal is maintained) but at the other part of the spectrum.
For a depth jump and especially depth drop where you hold the landing, there is a strong signal for a short time, but you have to take into account the shock on the joints/bones etc that's going to be detrimental to health over time.
For an unrack, there is a strong but weaker signal than in a depth drop (but still stronger than what you usually get in your normal life or even strength training) that lasts longer than in a depth drop. Sure, you have to take into account spinal load over time in here as well in terms of health, that's why I said you need to be smart and patient using this.
But, again, if you make the CNS adapt and be able to generate this signal "naturally" as in "at any point in time" then it might help getting the "normal" signal threshold that occurs during lifting and jumping at a higher point than if you were not to use this "system" of high frequency unracking.
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Sometimes on tough squatting days I do this unrack thing and it helps.
Also, I always make my final warm up set heavier than my work set. If I'm doing sets of 8, then my final two warm up sets are heavier. The added weight definitely makes the bar feel lighter, thus giving me confidence, but also the fact that I'm repping them (only singles) primes me for the movement as well.
Sometimes, when it's really tough, I'll do something like this:
135x5
185x5
225x3
275x1
315x1
365x1
385x10sec unrack
345x5
345x5
345x5
But I've never thought of the idea of "high frequency unracking." I've only ever thought of it as a way to prime you right before your tough work set.
What's weird though, is how when I do a single at 355 or 365 it feels SOOOO heavy on my back, I cannot possibly imagine how I ever squatted 415. I feel like after a certain point, the feeling of heaviness on your back reaches a threshhold and it doesn't feel that much heaver. 275-->315, not much difference. 315-->365, huge difference in feeling. 365-->405, not much again.
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275-->315, not much difference. 315-->365, huge difference in feeling. 365-->405, not much again.
Yeah that's really interesting, I think I can relate to that, but I have a narrower spectrum to "work with". For me heavy starts at 110 kg... but from that point on, probably 150 feels very heavy, but 130 or 140 seems "somewhat similar" to 110.
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Yeah I think people need to find the proper variation to it in terms of time. I mean think about it - if you do 5s unracks that can't possibly "hurt" you (other than maybe if you get injured by using too much weight or something) but what I mean by hurt is having a negative influence on power/strength production. For such a small time window, it's gotta have only a stim effect for the CNS (like "hey, I just got fatter by 400 lbs, how about you give me some extra power to be able to survive" kind of effect).
right, it's a heavy load but is not intense in terms of ROM, so the fatigue it causes is basically 0.. with such low fatigue, and with such heavy weight on your back, it's pretty much ALL stim..
i really love this idea, bigtime.
If you do it often (that's to be discovered, what "often" should mean for anybody) over and over and over in time, then the CNS should be able to "accept" and "consider normal" such a level of sudden electrical output in the body. It's like a depth jump basically (but obviously different in terms of signal speed and amount of time that signal is maintained) but at the other part of the spectrum.
don't see how it's like a depth jump, but it is just "experiencing" some heavy weight.. makes me feel pretty light/strong after i'm done with it, and i feel pretty amp'd up.. next day i feel good so far, feels like i squatted stim wise, but less leg fatigue..
you definitely can use some very high frequencies with this type of training, though i'm not ready to do that yet.. i don't think you even have to go much higher than your 1RM squat, just feeling that weight on your back limited to your 1RM squat is enough to get you feel really good.. when i stayed at 1RM, felt epic the next day, when i went ~30 lb over, felt a little more fatigued the next day but i did do tons of stretching, so not sure what to attribute it to.
the key phrase there is "electric output in the body".. bottom line, you're moving some heavy weight, even though it's a small rom, it's still heavy weight.. that's going to cause significant stim, but beyond that, i think it's great to use just to make any of your lifts feel lighter.. i honestly think my ng-pullups have gone up just from this unracking shit.. calve raises/ng-pullups/plate swings all feel MUCH lighter after i do the unracking set.. i think it transfers over to any movement, just wakes your CNS up hardcore..
im also loving it because, it's getting me out of my squat multiple times per day mindset.. with this unracking crap, i could squat 1x/day for example, then hit unracking sessions for the other sessions throughout the day.. or if my knees/body is feeling a bit beat up, i could just stick to unracking instead of hitting a squat set, so i get some work in with a heavy bar on my back daily while recovering my legs... one of my issues is, when i take one day off from squat, it feels much heavier the next day.. only one day rest can wreck my squat.. but with this unracking crap, i feel strong under the bar so far, regardless of taking a day off.
For a depth jump and especially depth drop where you hold the landing, there is a strong signal for a short time, but you have to take into account the shock on the joints/bones etc that's going to be detrimental to health over time.
For an unrack, there is a strong but weaker signal than in a depth drop (but still stronger than what you usually get in your normal life or even strength training) that lasts longer than in a depth drop. Sure, you have to take into account spinal load over time in here as well in terms of health, that's why I said you need to be smart and patient using this.
unracking is 100x less intense than DJ's, that's for sure.. only thing i see it being intense with is shoulders eventually.. but knees/back should be fine imo.. spinal column will take more of a beating depth jumping than unracking, pretty sure of it.
i think an issue would exist if you hold the unracking weight for time.. or try to 'bend the knees' under it.. if it's well over your 1RM, just unrack it, maybe walk out 1 step each, pause, then re-rack.. don't get overzealous and try holding for time or trying to do little 1/8th squats etc... if you use this idea like i said, i think it'll be much safer.. holding for 30seconds etc would really burn you out quick i imagine..
tonight i plan on doing unracking REPS, ie, unrack, walkout, re-rack, walk around relaxing, repeat for a number of reps.. ie a cluster of unracking/reracking.. but i plan on only going 385-405 instead of pushing the weight on it,, way over my 1RM.
But, again, if you make the CNS adapt and be able to generate this signal "naturally" as in "at any point in time" then it might help getting the "normal" signal threshold that occurs during lifting and jumping at a higher point than if you were not to use this "system" of high frequency unracking.
ya definitely..
i think it's helped my workouts a ton when i've used it.. i've yet to do it BEFORE squatting, though i think i will the next time i squat, tomorrow or monday.. but in the unracking sessions themselves, pullups/calve raises/plate swings/WHATEVER just feels so much lighter and i hit more reps/feel stronger on each lift after the unracking set.
being that i pulled a tendon SLIGHTLY in my left adductor, i need something to help keep my squat strength WITHOUT actually squatting at the frequency i was doing so, this shit came in perfect time.. this is really going to help for sure.. so far, my jumping has been REALLY GOOD the day follow the unracking sessions, so 2/2 have been REALLY GOOD.. good sign so far.. we'll see tomorrow.. if i'm just flying crazy tomorrow, after doing multi-rep unracking tonight, let's all just call raptor g0d.
lmao
edit: one thing as a precaution, definitely want to make sure you're getting hamstring work in (rdl/ghr/45deg hyper/whatever) just in case the high freq unracking training causes some serious imbalances.. as for me, when i unrack a bar, even at that depth, i use my hips pretty good, its not a knee driven movement when i unrack a bar, so that's probably something else that's important.. unracking it using a bit more hip focus, just in case.
Sometimes on tough squatting days I do this unrack thing and it helps.
Also, I always make my final warm up set heavier than my work set. If I'm doing sets of 8, then my final two warm up sets are heavier. The added weight definitely makes the bar feel lighter, thus giving me confidence, but also the fact that I'm repping them (only singles) primes me for the movement as well.
Sometimes, when it's really tough, I'll do something like this:
135x5
185x5
225x3
275x1
315x1
365x1
385x10sec unrack
345x5
345x5
345x5
But I've never thought of the idea of "high frequency unracking." I've only ever thought of it as a way to prime you right before your tough work set.
What's weird though, is how when I do a single at 355 or 365 it feels SOOOO heavy on my back, I cannot possibly imagine how I ever squatted 415. I feel like after a certain point, the feeling of heaviness on your back reaches a threshhold and it doesn't feel that much heaver. 275-->315, not much difference. 315-->365, huge difference in feeling. 365-->405, not much again.
interesting, definitely not like that for me.. the more weight i add, the more i feel it.. there's no threshold really.. i feel the increases very pronounced.
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Glad it helped, it sure will be interesting what happens next.
as for me, when i unrack a bar, even at that depth, i use my hips pretty good, its not a knee driven movement when i unrack a bar, so that's probably something else that's important.. unracking it using a bit more hip focus, just in case.
That's very interesting. Could this unracking thing make you become more aware of the hips if that makes sense? (like the iso stim does)
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That's very interesting. Could this unracking thing make you become more aware of the hips if that makes sense? (like the iso stim does).
You not using this ISO stim exercise any more Andrew?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWnDOmi0Gvc
Also, is there an 'semi' alternative for people without a 45° hyperextension bench?.
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That's very interesting. Could this unracking thing make you become more aware of the hips if that makes sense? (like the iso stim does).
You not using this ISO stim exercise any more Andrew?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWnDOmi0Gvc
Also, is there an 'semi' alternative for people without a 45° hyperextension bench?.
nah im not but it's funny you bring it up, im going to buy a 45 degree hyper i think tomorrow .... i need one at the crib, i could be getting in soOooooooooooooooooo much more hamstring work..
i don't know of an alternative to be honest, nothing feels as good as the 45deg hyper iso.. pmghr iso is just too brutal... i have a pmghr, i should hit some reps on that tonight, ya, i think i will.. i been lazy with hamstring work, setting up rdl is a bitch, no excuses, lazy weak bish i am.
if i had a 45deg hyper, i'd do so much hamstring work it would be insane..
pC
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Haha you looked so much more ... "different" there. Intellectual vs. caveman.
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Haha you looked so much more ... "different" there. Intellectual vs. caveman.
slave to society with a soul wrapped endlessly in duct tape VS progressively more and more free embracing my true animalistic qualities
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Haha you looked so much more ... "different" there. Intellectual vs. caveman.
slave to society with a soul wrapped endlessly in duct tape VS progressively more and more free embracing my true animalistic qualities
Or alternatively just progressively getting more psychotic and losing touch with reality :P
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Haha you looked so much more ... "different" there. Intellectual vs. caveman.
He was introduced to white girls
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Haha you looked so much more ... "different" there. Intellectual vs. caveman.
He was introduced to white girls
And that causes facial hair to grow? I knew there was something fishy about my facial hair. It never grows!