Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Rix on November 29, 2010, 02:11:15 pm
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So I was talking to a guy who used to be on the track team for my school. According to him, and all these numbers seemed legit, he was 6ft flat and about 200lbs. His max squat was 365lbs and he was deadlifting about 400 when he was on the team. So pretty solid numbers. Now watching him do some vert measuring I was extremely surprised to see how low his vert was. From a standstill, he was probably about 4 inches short of the rim. Now I'm guessing like a 7'7" or 7'8" reach, not sure on that. He definitely didn't have ridiculously short arms though. Running, he hit 1-2" over the rim.
I was so surprised because I thought first of all that his standing vert would be much higher, and second that the difference between his standing and running (double-legged) wouldn't be as high as it was because he was strength jumper.
So what I'm wondering is, how is it that someone can squat 365 and be so far from touching the rim from a stand still? How can you explain the difference between standing and running vert?
He said that he never did his lifts explosively and that he put on slow-twitch muscles, hence the lack of pop in his jumps. But wouldn't the strength from his high lifts compensate for that?
Overall just confused by his stats and seeing as I'm starting up with similar lifts, I don't want to end up with no explosiveness like him!
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First of all, 365 squat at 200 lbs isn't all that great a squat. Nor is 400 DL. Second of all, yes, pure strength training can leave you unexplosive. Take me, for example. Months of Starting Strength got my squat up to 320 and DL up to 360 at 170 lbs. Not great numbers but relatively stronger than your teammate. And I went from barely being able to touch the rim off a full run-up to barely being able to touch the rim off a run-up (my reach is 7'6"). Not to say that didn't provide me with a better base to build athletic improvements on later than I might have had. Just saying focusing on one aspect of vert won't necessarily get you a good vert.
Long story short: getting strong is good but not the whole story. Unless you're a powerlifter.
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He said that he never did his lifts explosively and that he put on slow-twitch muscles, hence the lack of pop in his jumps.
Nope, you can't do that. The fibers with most growth potential are the fast twitch fibers and even if you lift slow, your fast twitch fibers are used.
Train to be explosive, get high reactivity and RFD and get really strong = high jump!
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http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/DifferentStrokes.html (http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/DifferentStrokes.html)
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Nothing extraordinary really. For more advanced people than novices there has to be lifts that help "transfer" gained strength in the squat to explosive movements. The squat builds the foundation and more specific, meaning explosive, exercises will have to be used to really benefit in the jump department. First step would be to include powercleans and see how far you can get with that.
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Would doing plyos help his vert?
I saw the difference between his running and standing VJ as sign of some decent reactive ability, so I didn't know how he would be able to improve his reactive ability. I guess I was way off, so he would see best gains with explosive lifts and maybe plyos?
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Would doing plyos help his vert?
I saw the difference between his running and standing VJ as sign of some decent reactive ability, so I didn't know how he would be able to improve his reactive ability. I guess I was way off, so he would see best gains with explosive lifts and maybe plyos?
if you don't perform athletic movements (reactive, explosive, plyo etc), then your ability to perform those movements will diminish even if your "lifts" are going up.. Everything is a skill, so, not improving your body's ability to absorb/produce force rapidly is lost with detraining of explosive/reactive movements. There is no reason to periodize explosive/reactive movements, they should ALWAYS be included in an athlete's training program, it's just the volume/intensity that changes based on the type of workout or block you are in.. so ya, if someone is performing ONLY heavy lifting yet is somehow (wtf) doing all of that for athletic performance improvement, they will lose the ability to absorb/produce force fast, it's just how the body adapts..
whatever the stimulus, or lack thereof, the body will adapt accordingly..
pc
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adarq, isnt that what periodization basically is
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adarq, isnt that what periodization basically is
huh?
people often for some reason fall into the linear periodization mindset, working on heavy strength training with very little to no focus on explosive/reactive movements.. so for example, a "max strength block" ends up being ~8 weeks of strength work with basically no reactive/explosive work, then they shift into an "explosive block", this is always a bad idea imo.. that time spent re-learning how to absorb/produce force fast will have to occur in the explosive block, when it should have been provided in the max strength block.. so that's all i'm getting at, these people who think they should separate training into blocks that focus pretty much entirely on one quality. That's why i'm for non-linear models, which is how my ratio technique article works etc..
"He said that he never did his lifts explosively and that he put on slow-twitch muscles, hence the lack of pop in his jumps. But wouldn't the strength from his high lifts compensate for that?"
i was addressing the stuff in bold, damien already addressed the slow-twitch comment hehe.
peace man
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ohh yea i was think of block peridozation/maybe conjugate peridozation?, or you everything is always present, its just a matter of varying volume and intensity
IE if you block periodized jumping, in the accumlation phase you would do very minimal max jumps, but still a few, and instead do more general jump and sprint work along with more general strength work. Where as in the realization or competition block, you would do primarly max jumps with less non specific work.
Via james smith but regarding if the main goal is strength
"Pay close attention to the description of each block's contents and aims respective to the terminology used by Dr. Issurin. I have added some of my thoughts with respect to applying the methodology for strength development via barbell exercises:
Accumulation
§ Accumulation of training intensity 50-<70%
§ Begin with greater volume of non-specific exercises performed at lower intensities
§ Gradually increase load intensity on primary exercises
§ Large exercise selection in order to relieve support structures associated with competitive exercise
§ Perform lowest effective volume of competitive exercise at gradually increased intensity in order to maintain technique
Transmutation
§ General developments during accumulation are transmutated into more specific results via the performance of general specific exercise
§ Intensification of load via increased frequency of weekly workouts as well as intensification of primary general specific exercise 70-90%
§ Greatest degree of motor potential is generated during transmutation
§ Exercise selection heightens in specificity (general specific)
§ Gradual intensification of competition exercises while giving load volume priority to general specific lifts
§ Intentional accumulation of fatigue via no possibility of complete recovery between workouts
Realization
§ Realization of motor potential via competition exercises performed at near maximal to maximal intensity or pre-comp intensities proven to yield highest results
§ Complete recoveries provided between training sessions
§ Volume reduction/taper
§ Competition exercises
so while you may do anything you want, and it may in fact even yield positive results for a while, this does not suggest that the methodology is optimal or that it is beyond further improvement. ''
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Would doing plyos help his vert?
I saw the difference between his running and standing VJ as sign of some decent reactive ability, so I didn't know how he would be able to improve his reactive ability. I guess I was way off, so he would see best gains with explosive lifts and maybe plyos?
if you don't perform athletic movements (reactive, explosive, plyo etc), then your ability to perform those movements will diminish even if your "lifts" are going up.. Everything is a skill, so, not improving your body's ability to absorb/produce force rapidly is lost with detraining of explosive/reactive movements. There is no reason to periodize explosive/reactive movements, they should ALWAYS be included in an athlete's training program, it's just the volume/intensity that changes based on the type of workout or block you are in.. so ya, if someone is performing ONLY heavy lifting yet is somehow (wtf) doing all of that for athletic performance improvement, they will lose the ability to absorb/produce force fast, it's just how the body adapts..
whatever the stimulus, or lack thereof, the body will adapt accordingly..
pc
God I love that post, this is one of the biggest issues holding people back right now and that hit the nail right on the head!
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So that's why CoolColJ jumps 40, right?
Oh wait... :ninja:
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Would doing plyos help his vert?
I saw the difference between his running and standing VJ as sign of some decent reactive ability, so I didn't know how he would be able to improve his reactive ability. I guess I was way off, so he would see best gains with explosive lifts and maybe plyos?
if you don't perform athletic movements (reactive, explosive, plyo etc), then your ability to perform those movements will diminish even if your "lifts" are going up.. Everything is a skill, so, not improving your body's ability to absorb/produce force rapidly is lost with detraining of explosive/reactive movements. There is no reason to periodize explosive/reactive movements, they should ALWAYS be included in an athlete's training program, it's just the volume/intensity that changes based on the type of workout or block you are in.. so ya, if someone is performing ONLY heavy lifting yet is somehow (wtf) doing all of that for athletic performance improvement, they will lose the ability to absorb/produce force fast, it's just how the body adapts..
whatever the stimulus, or lack thereof, the body will adapt accordingly..
pc
God I love that post, this is one of the biggest issues holding people back right now and that hit the nail right on the head!
+1. Wish I'd learned that two years ago. Fuck you, Tony Gentilcore.
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Would doing plyos help his vert?
I saw the difference between his running and standing VJ as sign of some decent reactive ability, so I didn't know how he would be able to improve his reactive ability. I guess I was way off, so he would see best gains with explosive lifts and maybe plyos?
if you don't perform athletic movements (reactive, explosive, plyo etc), then your ability to perform those movements will diminish even if your "lifts" are going up.. Everything is a skill, so, not improving your body's ability to absorb/produce force rapidly is lost with detraining of explosive/reactive movements. There is no reason to periodize explosive/reactive movements, they should ALWAYS be included in an athlete's training program, it's just the volume/intensity that changes based on the type of workout or block you are in.. so ya, if someone is performing ONLY heavy lifting yet is somehow (wtf) doing all of that for athletic performance improvement, they will lose the ability to absorb/produce force fast, it's just how the body adapts..
whatever the stimulus, or lack thereof, the body will adapt accordingly..
pc
God I love that post, this is one of the biggest issues holding people back right now and that hit the nail right on the head!
+1. Wish I'd learned that two years ago. Fuck you, Tony Gentilcore.
lol, why?
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Why what?
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why fuck tony gentilcore?
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Because Tony Hardcore was busy.
And Max Hardcore is in jail for all these -18 porn movies he did.
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for example, a "max strength block" ends up being ~8 weeks of strength work with basically no reactive/explosive work, then they shift into an "explosive block", this is always a bad idea imo.. that time spent re-learning how to absorb/produce force fast will have to occur in the explosive block
Whoaaa, you don't re-learn if you first learn to maintain your strength during plyo blocks, and maintain your plyo during strength blocks!!! I think it's better to just play hard basketball while doing heavy ass squats, and then do heavy ass squats with less volume and frequency to maintain neural and muscular strength while doing heavy plyos.
I still think periodization has a great place in your training regimen. I mean, during my all out strength phase last year where I went from regular 1 hand dunking to two handed tomahawks in a few months, all I did was squat twice a week with no lower body assistance exercises. My explosiveness was maintained by playing basketball for my Varsity team.
I know for sure that if I had instead simutanously done heavy squats and heavy plyos (but both at less frequencies, of course) with much less basketball, I wouldn't have made those same gains.
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why fuck tony gentilcore?
Really, not fuck Tony Gentilcore. I was kind of joking. He seems like a nice guy, even if he does propagate broscience and write for Biotest sometimes. I said that because he gave me really crappy advice when I emailed him back in the day as a starry-eyed, TNation-loving noob, launching me on many months of strength-only training that got my lifts up (noobie gains!) but saw me stagnate in every other area of athletic performance. Still bitter about wasting all that time.