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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: bball2020 on August 09, 2010, 02:52:19 pm
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Confused on what role hip flexor strength play in sprints and jumps ...like should they be trained per say?
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They do not play much of a role in jumps. In sprints, however, they may play an important role. They allow you to bring the front knee higher faster and are conducive for a faster turnover rate, due to this. There was a study done that compared Asafa Powell to a Japanese sprinter who ran 10.0 for the 100m. Asafa Powell's hip flexors (I do not remember if the study made a distinction between the different hip flexors, nor can I find the study again) were far larger than the Japanese sprinters, this is not enough to say that they make a huge difference, but does seem to point to them as having some role in sprint speed.
A common recommendation for building the hip flexors for sprinting specifically is to do high knees and B skips (search these on youtube) while maintaining correct posture. Decline situps can be useful as well. Decline situp isos with the body more or less parallel to the ground are effective for building the hip flexors in a stretched position: most people's hip flexors are weak in this position due to hours of sitting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpiKvtHU5Xo
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Well there are alot of different opinions on the hip flexors, in regards to jumping they are alot more important in single leg jumps than double leg. They are definitely not the most important muscle group nor are they close to it, but in single leg jumping the hip flexors of the non jumping leg assist in driving the knee up, creating a lightening effect on the body. In sprinting there were studies done that showed elite sprinters stride length was long enough due to the power created in each stride that being extremely quick on the "cycling" phase, or bringing the opposite knee up and through was not neccessary and in fact they had more time in this phase than slower sprinters due to the power created in each ground contact. They are still important imo but not to the degree that was once thought, where alot of speed coaches were preaching hip flexors as the determining factor. Having tight hip flexors inhibits the hell out of the glutes though so stretching and mobility is extremely important.
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And as far as working the hip flexors in training, I like ghr straight leg weighted sit ups and different hanging leg and knee raise variations. The dynamic work for the hip flexors occurs during things like hurdle jumps, tuck jumps, box jumps, and of course sprinting and different skipping variants.
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everyone said good things already, so ya i agree.. hip flexors are not that important in DLRVJ, get more important in SLRVJ, and become very important in sprinting.. another thing you could do is 4-way hip for the hip flexion, if you have one of those, that's what those WGF guys prescribe.. various types of resisted hip flexor training can have a positive impact on sprint speed.
kellyB actually posted some studies on db forum not too long ago regarding hip flexor training and sprint speed, there was a positive correlation from what i remember.
peace
edit: from kellyb in some thread:
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Training the hip flexors can make you faster
Effects of Hip Flexor Training on Sprint, Shuttle Run, and Vertical Jump Performance
DEANE, RUSSELL S.; CHOW, JOHN W.; TILLMAN, MARK D.; FOURNIER, KIM A.
The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 19(3):615-621, August 2005.
EFFECTS OF HIP FLEXOR TRAINING ON SPRINT, SHUTTLE RUN, AND VERTICAL JUMP PERFORMANCE. run tim...
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Although hip flexion is integral in sports, hip flexion exercises are seldom emphasized in strength and conditioning for sports performance. This study aimed to determine whether a hip flexor resistance-training program could improve performance on a variety of tasks. Thirteen men and 11 women completed an 8-week hip flexion resistance-training program. Eleven men and 13 women served as controls. Isometric hip flexion strength, 40-yd dash time and the time for the first 10-yds, 4 x 5.8-m shuttle run time, and vertical jump height were evaluated at the beginning and end of the training and control period. Improvements were observed in the training group but not in the control group. Individuals in the training group improved hip flexion strength by 12.2% and decreased their 40-yd and shuttle run times by 3.8% and 9.0%, respectively. An increase in hip flexion strength can help to improve sprint and agility performance for physically active, untrained individuals."
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I would however be careful to draw conclusions based on this study. I mean, what relevance does improving sprint times have for untrained individuals? Hence, why in hell did those guys conduct this study? And the more important question, should we really prescribe training advice for athletes based on a study on non-athletes?
I am sure Kelly has the personal experience to come to his own conclusions which are probably worth a lot more than this research. I am just saying that studies like that don't say much.
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so wouldnt there be a decent carryover to 1 leg running vert, and a mild carryover to 2 leg?
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so wouldnt there be a decent carryover to 1 leg running vert, and a mild carryover to 2 leg?
Why would you think that, especially the latter? I mean in the 1 leg running vert, maybe a little bit since the non-jumping leg will be pulled high. But in the double legged jump there is not even any significant hip flexion that occurs. I doubt that you would get a lot out of it, especially if you are a trained athlete and not a "physically active, untrained individual".
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so wouldnt there be a decent carryover to 1 leg running vert, and a mild carryover to 2 leg?
Why would you think that, especially the latter? I mean in the 1 leg running vert, maybe a little bit since the non-jumping leg will be pulled high. But in the double legged jump there is not even any significant hip flexion that occurs. I doubt that you would get a lot out of it, especially if you are a trained athlete and not a "physically active, untrained individual".
ya i don't see much transfer happening to dlrvj, but slrvj yes..
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In a single leg jump the faster you go with your non-jumping knee upwards the better... it takes away part of your bodyweight.
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Hi i'm new here and this is my first replie. (sry for my poor english)
I try to improve jump and sprint performance since three years now.
I think hip movement is the most important factor in sprinting and single leg jumping.
For example stand on a weight scale and drive your knee up as fast as you can. Look at the scale and you know what i mean.
For me it's unbelieveable that no one trains the hipflexors. There are millions of youtube vid with heavy lifts like squats and deadlifts and all that stuff, but no hipflexor exercises like one leg weighted situps or weighted leg raises. poor!
The two most important musclegroups are the hip flexors and the two jointed hamstrings.
The quads aren't very important in RSL movements. Most of you won't beliebe this.
Doing MaxEffort bulgarin split squats with dbs makes your two-joined hamstrings extreme sore! But not your quads!
Because the power come from the hips. It's very important to have a super strong core to transfer the power!
I think the reason is because the hip joint is a fix point. One leg drives forward (hipflexor work) and the other backwards (hamstring and little glute work) this result in a fix hip joint position.
The sprint trainer barry ross write an article: http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/
And i read a study about the corelation of hamstring strenght and sprint times. That's also a reason why deadlifts are great for sprinting especially SL deadlifts.
End result: hip movement have highest priority in sprinting/ SLRJ for me
calv movement have second highest.
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Yeah you bring some good points and I agree with you... more hip flexor work is imperative for good single leg jumping and sprinting, and it is indeed ignored. The problem is - most people aren't going to be limited by that. That's why the squats and strength movements still are the basic foundation of training.
It's interesting you mention the dumbbell BSS variant - I just did that yesterday and I have such sore glutes today you can't believe. Not much hamstring soreness though but probably the weight wasn't that much to challenge my hams which are very strong anyway. It also depends what kind of a stance you use when you do them (how much of a step forwards you take with the working leg).
If you look at Ced Norman, he does a lot of hip flexor training stuff, usually working with ankle weights to overload the legs a bit and make them heavier for exercises like leg raises etc.
Still, you can't say the quads aren't important, because the quads prevent the knee collapse in the amortization phase. That manages the amount of speed you can use in your plants which is extremely important in terms of elastic accumulation.
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Hi i'm new here and this is my first replie. (sry for my poor english)
I try to improve jump and sprint performance since three years now.
I think hip movement is the most important factor in sprinting and single leg jumping.
For example stand on a weight scale and drive your knee up as fast as you can. Look at the scale and you know what i mean.
For me it's unbelieveable that no one trains the hipflexors. There are millions of youtube vid with heavy lifts like squats and deadlifts and all that stuff, but no hipflexor exercises like one leg weighted situps or weighted leg raises. poor!
The two most important musclegroups are the hip flexors and the two jointed hamstrings.
The quads aren't very important in RSL movements. Most of you won't beliebe this.
the quads are hip flexors..
Doing MaxEffort bulgarin split squats with dbs makes your two-joined hamstrings extreme sore! But not your quads!
Because the power come from the hips. It's very important to have a super strong core to transfer the power!
the quads rarely get sore with any lift, they are pretty much always stronger than the hamstrings.
I think the reason is because the hip joint is a fix point. One leg drives forward (hipflexor work) and the other backwards (hamstring and little glute work) this result in a fix hip joint position.
The sprint trainer barry ross write an article: http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/
And i read a study about the corelation of hamstring strenght and sprint times. That's also a reason why deadlifts are great for sprinting especially SL deadlifts.
sure hamstrings are more important for sprinting than jumping, the quads still absorb a ton of force during each foot contact during a sprint, and stabilize the patella.
End result: hip movement have highest priority in sprinting/ SLRJ for me
calv movement have second highest.
sprinting/SLRVJ have more contribution from hamstrings, for sure.. for double leg jumping, quads become extremely important.. regardless, quads always absorb a majority of the force in each movement.
as for hip flexors, sure training them directly may help in SLRVJ, most definitely will help with sprinting, but for double leg jumping, not so important.. hip flexors get strong and powerful simply by sprinting, for the most part.
peace
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arent the quads more important at the start of a sprint and at top speed its more posterior chain?
because then, standing jumps would be very much quad dominant...
i think hip flexors could play a role in double leg jumps as they help you get into position faster
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Standing jumps ARE quad dominant. But in a correct sprint start, you better believe the posterior chain is engaged A LOT. I think if anything, the posterior chain is always engaged in a sprint, while the quads are only engaged in the begging more and the hamstrings start to kind of take over after you get out of the dig phase.
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You all have good arguments.
I think posterior chain strenght is very important in any movement.
But every muscle SHOULD have an antagonist with near the same strengh and size.
In that case it's the M. iliopsoas (M. iliacus), M. iliacus (M. psoaris major), M. sartorius and one muscle of the quads.
The quads are most important in standing jumps with feet close to another. I did BSS with a very wide stance and this makes posteiror chain extremly sore but really not the quads. Closer stance targets more the quads.
Quads strenght become more important for low knee angles like parallel squats i think.
I think in running jumps normally the knee angle don't go below 120° like a half squat.
Could that be a reason to train more with higher knee angles (half- and quater squats) with heavier weights.
Fullsquats strengtend quads in the area around 90° but they give less strenght gains in high angles >130°.
But half squats and quater squats gives almost no strenght gains in low angle areas. (read in a book)
The same question applies the hip flexors. They are very strong in streched positions (normal) and very weak in dorsi flexed positions. What means that for sprinting/SLJ movements. Wich angle areas should be strong?
On the web i found an exercise. They said this will increase sprint speed extremly.
The exercise was an isometric hold for the hip flexors in dorsi flexed position (hip angle 90°). They used a rubberband for it.
What do you think about isometrics and what's about the angle areas for major muscle in jumping movements.
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IMO their main importance is from a postural perspective and femoral control. Basically if the hip flexors are weak the glutes can't do their job becuase the hips aren't set in a way that primes the glutes optimally and the TFL tends to take over in hip flexion. It's common in people with a naturally flat ass. Strengthen their hip flexors and all the sudden the posture of the hips changes and the glutes are more easily engaged. The relative size and strength of the psoas in black people is significantly greater than whites.
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IMO their main importance is from a postural perspective and femoral control. Basically if the hip flexors are weak the glutes can't do their job becuase the hips aren't set in a way that primes the glutes optimally and the TFL tends to take over in hip flexion. It's common in people with a naturally flat ass. Strengthen their hip flexors and all the sudden the posture of the hips changes and the glutes are more easily engaged. The relative size and strength of the psoas in black people is significantly greater than whites.
Really? I find that hard to understand and/or believe.
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The relative size and strength of the psoas in black people is significantly greater than whites.
interesting, you've read studies on that or what? curious
pc
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The relative size and strength of the psoas in black people is significantly greater than whites.
interesting, you've read studies on that or what? curious
pc
same here
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Hip flexors, at least in my short experience, are very useful, but only in motions that require a quick drive of the knee. (HURDLES). In hurdles, for example, without sufficient hip flexor strength, the trail leg doesn't move forward fast enough over the hurdle and it delays the time it takes for the lead leg to make contact (this part of the motion being highly dependent on hamstring strength). They're definitely useful, but crazy hip strength isn't really necessary for most athletic movements.
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interesting, you've read studies on that or what? curious
Yeah, it was surprising to me too. Here's one of the studies on it:
Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men
PATRICK HANSON,1 S. PETER MAGNUSSON,1 ,2 HENRIK SORENSEN,1 and ERIK B. SIMONSEN1
The anatomy of the psoas major muscle (PMA) in young black and white men was studied during routine autopsies. The forensic autopsies included 44 fresh male cadavers (21 black, 23 white) with an age span of 14 to 25 y. The range for weight was 6676 kg and for height 169182 cm. The PMA was initially measured in its entire length before measuring the diameter and circumference at each segmental level (L1S1). At each segmental level, the calculated anatomical cross-sectional area (ACSA) was more than 3 times greater in the black group compared with the white (P<0.001). The psoas minor muscle (PMI) was absent in 91% of the black subjects, but only in 13% of the white subjects. These data show that the PMA is markedly larger in black than white subjects. The marked race specific difference in the size of the PMA may have implications for hip flexor strength, spine function and race specific incidence in low back pathology, and warrants further investigation.
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See, it's those strong hip flexors that in large part set the hips in a way that gives the illusion of lordosis/anterior pelvic tilt characteristic in athletes like sprinters.
Is the lordosis an illusion or is it real?
A comparison of actual and apparent lumbar lordosis in black and white adult females.
Mosner EA, Bryan JM, Stull MA, Shippee R.
U.S. Army-Baylor University Graduate Program, Academy of Health Sciences, Fort Sam Houston, Texas.
Abstract
The purposes of this study were to investigate differences in lumbar lordosis in black and white adult females and to explain the clinical impression that blacks have a greater lordosis than whites. An actual lumbosacral lordosis angle (ALS) was measured from a standing right lateral lumbosacral radiograph using the angle formed from the intersection of lines drawn across the top of the second lumbar vertebral body (L2) and across the top of the sacrum. An actual lumbo-lumbar angle (ALL) was measured in the same manner, except the second line was drawn across the bottom of the fifth vertebral body (L5). To determine whether gluteal prominence gives a false impression of increased lumbar lordosis, an apparent lordosis (APL) measurement was taken, measuring the distance from the subject's greater trochanter to the most posterior aspect of the buttocks. No significant differences were found in ALS or ALL between 25 black and 27 white adult female subjects (ALS, P = 0.26; ALL, P = 0.41). Significant differences were found between black and white APL, with blacks demonstrating a larger APL than whites (P less than 0.01). A high correlation was noted between ALS and ALL in both blacks (0.70, P less than 0.01) and whites (0.77, P less than 0.01). The investigators therefore contend that the clinician's assumption that blacks have a greater lordosis than whites is based on an apparent increased lordosis due to more prominent buttocks (APL).
Also there's some interesting reading here ont he subject of anthopometrics and posture for different sports if you scroll down and read pages 8-12:
http://books.google.com/books?id=2oh18I2TRIUC&dq=science+and+medicine+in+sport&pg=PP1&ots=Ka-E897YdD&source=citation&sig=JyBiCF4BizRtggq7F3wJ_npmR9o&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.com/search?q=Science+and+medicine+in+sport+&btnG=Search&hl=en&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1&cad=bottom-3results#v=onepage&q&f=false
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interesting, you've read studies on that or what? curious
Yeah, it was surprising to me too. Here's one of the studies on it:
Anatomical differences in the psoas muscles in young black and white men
PATRICK HANSON,1 S. PETER MAGNUSSON,1 ,2 HENRIK SORENSEN,1 and ERIK B. SIMONSEN1
The anatomy of the psoas major muscle (PMA) in young black and white men was studied during routine autopsies. The forensic autopsies included 44 fresh male cadavers (21 black, 23 white) with an age span of 14 to 25 y. The range for weight was 6676 kg and for height 169182 cm. The PMA was initially measured in its entire length before measuring the diameter and circumference at each segmental level (L1S1). At each segmental level, the calculated anatomical cross-sectional area (ACSA) was more than 3 times greater in the black group compared with the white (P<0.001). The psoas minor muscle (PMI) was absent in 91% of the black subjects, but only in 13% of the white subjects. These data show that the PMA is markedly larger in black than white subjects. The marked race specific difference in the size of the PMA may have implications for hip flexor strength, spine function and race specific incidence in low back pathology, and warrants further investigation.
damn interesting, and some of us thought you wouldn't have a study.. hahaha
nice
peace
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"Absent"?
What, some people don't have a muscle?
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Kellyb, what is your take on hip flexor strengthening for gymnasts and martial artists that o lots of high and jumping kicks?
thx
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Maybe I missed it, but I still haven't seen a response to my question about what a black person is.
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Maybe I missed it, but I still haven't seen a response to my question about what a black person is.
Same here. Black people come from all over the world. Where are they basing their data? Anyone would call Obama black, but his mother's completely white. Would the muscular differences showing up in "black" people be in him too, even though he's really half white?
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Maybe I missed it, but I still haven't seen a response to my question about what a black person is.
Yeah and I'm sure you thought I was talking out of my ass before I posted the above reseach on structural differences. ;)The studies were done on African americans but if you want to take things further I would contact the researchers in charge and ask them for further clarification. There's no shortage of additional scientific information out there on structural & physiological differences among races and I'm sure you can eventually find a labcoat with enough info. to satisfy your curiosity. I have no need or desire to be that pedantic, however.
Kellyb, what is your take on hip flexor strengthening for gymnasts and martial artists that o lots of high and jumping kicks?
thx
It's already built into their training just going thru the progressions they use. For example, here's a progression on the L-sit for gymnastics:
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/329/
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Pedantic. Haha. That's a fantastic word. I think it should be used more often.
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Confused on what role hip flexor strength play in sprints and jumps ...like should they be trained per say?
Basically the hip flexors, (the muscles responsible for the knee drive) generate a very large amount of strength and power. This type of strength is needed to initially accelerate the knee and the thigh when the foot leaves the ground to a position where the knee is furthest away from the body.
Though it's somewhat counterintuitive, studies have shown that hip flexion strength is a better predictor of sprint speed than is hip extension strength amongst trained athletes (Blazevich & Jenkins, 1998). Similarly, other studies have demonstrated significant decreases in short sprint (3.8%) and shuttle times (9.0%) after a period of hip flexor training (Dean et al, 2005) and have found a link between larger illiopsoas (when compared to the quadriceps) and 100M speed (Hoshikawa et al, 2006).
To sprint fast you need to be as explosive as possible in this area.
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Any comments on how would you personally train for that?
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Any comments on how would you personally train for that?.
My main exercise for the hip flexors is using the bike.
Charlie Francis has his own Bike Workout that he used back in Ben Johnson's day: http://www.charliefrancis.com/store/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=19 (http://www.charliefrancis.com/store/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=19)
Your leg frequency should increase significantly as it overloads the hip flexors. Good for dropping bodyweight too.
Whether you use stationary, road or a mountain bike, if you decide on using one, I suggest using clipless pedals which allows you to pull back on the pedal stroke not just push forwards.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4aC9SiM0WWE/S-2-bAhid0I/AAAAAAAAAFM/BBqlamDxr1Q/s1600/Cycling+Pedal+Stroke+%26+Muscles+Used.gif)
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Interesting. Well in my particular case, I already have incredible stride frequency in sprints, so my beef with the hip flexors would be to use them to pull the non-jumping leg's knee up better in a unilateral jump, so I need explosiveness with that and strength, so my leg is easier to pull up and therefore the movement is faster.
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i would put the hip flexors for sprinting along the same lines as the 'calfs' are in jumping.. industry dogma & p-chain nazis swear against hip flexor/calf training, but they are extremely important, no doubt about that.
the bike idea is good if you have the straps to pull up.
beyond that, some slow TUT-level hip flexor training can be beneficial, ie:
- 4 way hip (for flexion)
- all types of leg raises/knee up core training, getting really rugged on those exercises will result in some strong hip flexion
some ballistic stuff could be beneficial too:
- possibly finally finding a use for those ankle weights: controlled exercises such as rebounding tuck jumps (MR tuck/MR halftuck), sprint mechanics drills (a-skip/b-skip/whatever), controlled high knee sprinting.
- pool work
with the ankle weight stuff, i wouldn't do any actual sprinting which causes a significant amount of deceleration of the tibia (at the end of the recovery phase), with ankle weights on that would just be too much torque.
pc
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As far as transition into sprints, I think the sprint mechanics drills are probably the most effective. They're also a pretty good addition to any warmup. Usually on our harder days in track I end up feeling a bit tired in my hip flexors even after just the warmup with sprint mechanics.
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Oh, and tuck jumps....
try doing those for a minute straight in the middle of a circuit and tell me your knees kept coming high... they didn't. Tuck jumps are beast.
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As far as transition into sprints, I think the sprint mechanics drills are probably the most effective. They're also a pretty good addition to any warmup. Usually on our harder days in track I end up feeling a bit tired in my hip flexors even after just the warmup with sprint mechanics.
ya man good point, those drills by themselves are good.. alot of track coaches have days where their athletes just spend a ton of time doing those drills, they definitely tax the hip flexors hardcore with all of that volume... but they don't lead to pulls because it's all nice & controlled..
Oh, and tuck jumps....
try doing those for a minute straight in the middle of a circuit and tell me your knees kept coming high... they didn't. Tuck jumps are beast.
yup, high rep MR halftucks are godly.. half tucks still get my hip flexors hard, full tucks just bug my back too much.
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yup, high rep MR halftucks are godly.. half tucks still get my hip flexors hard, full tucks just bug my back too much.
Happens to me on bad days too. (probably would have happened today but I let my ankle rest another day)
Can't really do full tucks during our circuits though.... too demanding to maintain the explosiveness and strength required to keep them up for a whole minute between other things.
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Strengthening the hip flexors dynamically is important, also important is strengthening them in extension, especially as a prehab measure.
Paused or iso lunges done correctly, bss with the lead foot far enough away from the bench (paused), and standing roll outs with an emphasis on driving the toes into the floor and pulling are all good in this aspect.
Not only do they strengthen them in extension, they also provide a nice stretch under load, making them very effective to use before squatting/deadlifting/olympic lifts/ etc.
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i would put the hip flexors for sprinting along the same lines as the 'calfs' are in jumping.. industry dogma & p-chain nazis swear against hip flexor/calf training, but they are extremely important, no doubt about that.
+1.
Calf's are extremely important for sprinting too.
Once you start getting into sub 10.5sec territory for 100m sprints you will start to realise you "jump" down the track not run.
(http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/images/Tyson-Gay.jpg)
the bike idea is good if you have the straps to pull up.
Instead of straps I would suggest clipless pedals. Basically the cleat at the bottom of the shoe (red part) just clicks into the pedal.
(http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/cycling/images/clipless_pedal.jpg)
With regards to acceleration, increasing the strength in my glutes/quads as you have to overcome the inertia of the body, running 10-30m accelerations, increasing the explosiveness in my arms, cycling did an awful lot for increasing my acceleration due to the hip flexors getting worked.
Hip flexor training (Deanne 2005) n=11; 10yd time 15% improvement relative to control, this only has a significant effect within the first 10m.
with the ankle weight stuff, i wouldn't do any actual sprinting which causes a significant amount of deceleration of the tibia (at the end of the recovery phase), with ankle weights on that would just be too much torque.
I have heard stories on the internet of people seriously damaging there knees running with ankle weights, even on grass.
I think the better option would be resisted sprints (sleds), 20-40m with about 10-15% weight of your body weight.
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Yeah, doing anything other than maybe some hip flexor training like leg raises etc with ankle weights is not smart in my opinion. However, the same applies to pulling on the pedals while on the bike - it just pulls the tibia away from the femur/knee/whatever. It would kill my knee.
By the way - in terms of calf training - what loads and rep ranges would you use for calf raises for both mass and strength gains? Would you go with something like 30-50 x bodyweight or 10-15 x heavy weight (barbell/dumbbells)? In other words - do you think they respond better at higher reps and lower intensities (loads) or lower reps and heavier loads?
In my experience, I've never had calf growth from calf raises, using either load intensity and volume. Instead, the best things for calf growth I have found were high plyo work like sprints and jumps. If that is true, then both extremely heavy loads (as those that occur in jumps and sprints) and high volumes (as those that occur in jumps and sprints) are necessary for calf growth and strength increases.
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By the way - in terms of calf training - what loads and rep ranges would you use for calf raises for both mass and strength gains? Would you go with something like 30-50 x bodyweight or 10-15 x heavy weight (barbell/dumbbells)? In other words - do you think they respond better at higher reps and lower intensities (loads) or lower reps and heavier loads?
In my experience, I've never had calf growth from calf raises, using either load intensity and volume. Instead, the best things for calf growth I have found were high plyo work like sprints and jumps. If that is true, then both extremely heavy loads (as those that occur in jumps and sprints) and high volumes (as those that occur in jumps and sprints) are necessary for calf growth and strength increases.
Without a doubt. Louie Simmons states: At top sprint speed, 5-6 times bodyweight is being imposed on the runner. Calf strength is vital for the realization of the power produced at the hip by the prime movers around the hip.
If you were not born with a high amount of muscle fiber in your calf, it is difficult to get alot of hypertrophy. That being said, the biggest mistake I see people make is not doing the proper rep protocols for the soleus vs. the gastroc. The gastroc is more fast twitch, therefore needs to be introduced to higher intensity loading. The soleus is predominantly slow twitch, therefore should receive higher reps. Also, technique needs to be solid. Most do not stretch and contract fully. Too much bouncing. Try hammering them frequently such as three days a week for say one month. Perhaps that will shock them into growth.
Charlie Francis actually believes having smaller calves may be a benefit in sprinting (something about having a larger mass at the end of a lever is detrimental). I personally get most of my calf work on the track, although I just started to do some additional stuff in the gym (mainly isometric) as you need extreme isometric strength so you dont collapse at the ankle.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Bolt's calves aren't exactly big. I think the achilles tendon is much more important.
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3713/bolt200op2.jpg)
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Well yeah, obviously, but for the tendon to deform and play it's elastic role, you still need strong calves, like you said, to contract isometrically.
However, for me at least, the biggest problem is still quad isometric strength since that's what prevents knee collapse, and I've always had a problem with that all my life. If I had that I'd be able to use a lot more speed, that's why I was saying that I need to find a way to train my quads to maintain/generate great isometric strength. One way, I think, is depth drops or isometric 1/4 pin squats, but I don't have any squat rack with pins where I train to do it.
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However, for me at least, the biggest problem is still quad isometric strength since that's what prevents knee collapse, and I've always had a problem with that all my life. If I had that I'd be able to use a lot more speed, that's why I was saying that I need to find a way to train my quads to maintain/generate great isometric strength. One way, I think, is depth drops or isometric 1/4 pin squats, but I don't have any squat rack with pins where I train to do it.
How about good ol' fashioned wall sits for quads?.
(http://0.tqn.com/d/sportsmedicine/1/G/0/9/wallsit.jpg)
or.
Dead-start zercher squats?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2OKweR-N-g
What are other people's suggestions for developing quad isometric strength?.
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Yeah, the wall sits sound cool for that.
I was thinking last night - I think Lance was actually right about my quad dominant jumping. I can do pretty tall depth drops with no problem (I can amortizate OK from about 48 inches) yet when I put voluntary force in my jumps I usually collapse at the knee. That means it's not really an overload problem in the amortization, but it is actually a problem of applying voluntary power, a moment where the body feels it should add quad power into the movement instead of hip power - hence flexing the knees and putting them into a disadvantageous overloading position (instead of knee almost straight - goes to bent knee). That's when the collapse occurs.
So, thinking about it, it's still a matter of strengthening the posterior chain more than strengthening the quads, to make the body "go to" the hip more and overload the quads less in terms of voluntary application. Right now the quads get to do both things: amortizate the drop/plant AND apply voluntary power to jump.
At least this is the conclusion I get to.
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Well yeah, obviously, but for the tendon to deform and play it's elastic role, you still need strong calves, like you said, to contract isometrically.
However, for me at least, the biggest problem is still quad isometric strength since that's what prevents knee collapse, and I've always had a problem with that all my life. If I had that I'd be able to use a lot more speed, that's why I was saying that I need to find a way to train my quads to maintain/generate great isometric strength. One way, I think, is depth drops or isometric 1/4 pin squats, but I don't have any squat rack with pins where I train to do it.
TOO FANCY FOR ME!
why on earth would you want to do isometric 1/4th, oh ok, you said pin squats.. ok that's fine.. i didn't see pin there for a second..
sure, 1/4th pin squats would be the way to go.. iso 1/4th HOLDS are way too dangerous.. if anyone is going to do a "hold" they should just do a walkout with pins set real high, that'll be more than enough to cause adaptations.
What are other people's suggestions for developing quad isometric strength?.
high rep rebounding half-tuck jumps (MR half tucks, 25-50 reppers), stiff legged pogos (5-10 reppers), heavy half/quarter squats, sprints, tke's, jumps (single and double leg rvj's), and possibly depth drops but if the other stuff i mentioned is lacking, no need for those.
so ya, i didn't list any actual prolonged isometric exercises, instead everything i listed is miometric/pliometric.
i'm not a big fan of isos, in fact I hate them except for paused lifts.. paused squat/paused lunge would undoubtedly hit the hams/glutes harder than quads, and for the paused squats, that would be the case pretty much regardless of depth unless you really allow the knees to shift forward.
if I were to do isos, the only one I actually like is the "iso extension stim" method, where you iso a 45deg hyper, but that's p-chain dominant.. quad isos really put too much stress on the patella/patella tendon for my liking, it's a prolonged tension that just can lead to way too many pathologies like tendonities etc.. the quads are just way too strong to load up isometrically imo, really heavy isos targeted the quads just place too much stress on the knee.. the patella is sesamoid so, it's much diff than hamstring/glute isos for example... i think that's one of the key problems with them.
so ya, the stuff in bold at the time, that's the stuff i like.
peace
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the patella is sesamoid
The patella is what? :ninja:
What about heavy BSS iso holds (like in my video that I posted several posts ago) or paused box pistol squats?
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RE: Hip flexors
Go back to the things I said earlier this thread about femoral control.
We know that what happens to the legs during the recovery phase (once the foot comes off the ground) plays no direct role in sprinting (see the infamous Weyand study)
The harder you push against the ground, the faster you go.
BUT....
Having an optimal posture (repositioning your legs correctly) allows you to set up in a way that allows you to more efficiently exert more force when your foot does hit the ground....you get a better wind-up, better leverage, and a greater pre-stretch from the contributing musculature (the muscles that contribute when your foot makes ground contact)
If the hip flexors are weak it's very difficult to get to that posture and people will either shorten their strides up or flail their feet sideways, as the TFL and rectus femoris try to do what the psoas can't. It's easy to see from the back.
Look at who has naturally strong hip flexor and great femoral control and who doesn't. Femoral control = the muscles in control of the femur from the hip (the hip flexors and glutes) are fully in control of the femur from both sides.
Best strengtheners: Look at the sprinters posture than try to duplicate. The hip flexors are one of the few muscles that tend to be weak in the shortened range (the very top of a full knee or leg raise) rather than the stretch range. Here is an exercise to test. Keep the natural arch and don't lean back.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxkbqUa28BY
A lot of people won't be able to lift their knee an inch without squirming around all over the place. You should be able to come up several inches.
I recommend doing sets of 8-10 with a 2-3 second hold at top on that exercise. The more you lean forward the harder the exerise is. Use bands for extra resistance.
Another good exercise is doing the same thing standing up, which also happens to hit the glute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAUwgrazCg4 (keep the plant leg straight and don't let the knee bend).
Then maybe look into pike variations:
http://gymnasticbodies.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10:developing-the-hanging-leg-lift&catid=2:articles&Itemid=3
Raptor, regarding your knee collapse, that's actually more of a combined eccentric and isometric contraction. I wouldn't get caught up in doing isos just get your quads stronger overall in things you know how to do. You can't affect one type of strength without affecting them all.