Author Topic: how much squat for athletes?  (Read 15830 times)

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entropy

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how much squat for athletes?
« on: June 18, 2012, 12:04:59 pm »
+1
Wondering about the Double Bodyweight Squat Rule of Thumb (DBSRT) as a goal for guys wanting to improve their sprint and jump.

Take two guys

-  A. 5'9", solid build, weighing 80kg at ~12% bodyfat, he's build for lifting and quickly attains the double bw squat for reps.
-  B. 6'2", long limbs, slender build, weighing 80kg, 12% bodyfat, he's not build for lifting and struggles to squat 1.75*BW for a max.

It seems to me, that the rule of thumb doesn't do a good job distinguishing that the double goal is fairly easy for A but very difficult for B.  B needs to gain a lot more bodyweight before his max can even approach the weights which B is currently repping regularly for say 5x5. The rule doesn't take into account that A is very close to his maximum lean/athletic mass, while B is not and requires a lot more muscle to have better levers, but if he did gain the bw it might be a big tradeoff, costing athleticism.

Then you might have a guy C. 6'3", solid build, 100kg @ 12% who can squat fair in excess of both A and B, but you can expect that very few if any B's could become Cs.

Wondering if a better rule of thumb ought to be based on BMI rather than just BW.

As for myself, I'am struggling with even squatting 1.5BW for reps, leave alone even thinking about 2*BW any time in the next 18 months. It might not even possible for me to squat 2BW without gaining a lot of BW which would kill any dream of being athletic.


Goals: Cutting to 6-8% bodyfat

Mikey

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 12:40:10 pm »
0
"^ no offense to RutgersDunker or anybody who is sub 5'10.. but IMO, it will take a LOT more strength to get the same jumps compared to somebody with longer leverages.. (5'10++). if  RutgersDunker grows to 5'10+... he should be mid-forearming the rim with 2 hands from an SVJ with that leg explosiveness. i can SVJ the same rim RVJ grabs in his vids with a max squat ratio that is considerable lower than his." (Kingfish)

I don't really like giving advice or even posting much on jumping since I suck at it. But from what I've read from guys like Kelly B it seems like if you take guy A and guy B in your example you'd always expect guy B to be able to jump higher if they could both squat exactly 2x their bodyweight. This is because guy B has to produce a lot more force to squat 2x bodyweight than guy A.
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

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vag

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 01:56:39 pm »
0
Yeah, this is very interesting.
The question is not if the 'not-for-squat' built guy should aim to squat 2*BW , of course he should , he should aim for 3 and 4 times BW too if he can.
The question is if it is realistic for such builds to expect to reach 2*BW. I don't know the answer.
What i think should we do? Just get the squat as high as we can , regardless of the built. Work your ass off , chase progressive overloading, use peaking and plateau busting techniques when gains stagnate and all over again. The quest is not to get a standard squat to bodyweight ratio, the quest is to get your squat to bodyeweight ratio as high as possible.

Also, it's not about height , just height by itself says nothing. It is all about leverages, a combination of legs and torso length.
Some relevant discussion in here:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/crazy-weird-analysis-stuff-%29/the-squat-thread/
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 02:03:24 pm »
0
Well...

I have been squatting consistently for 2 years and haven't got to 2x. Could I have gotten there? Of course, if I were to bulk and weigh 90 kg now. But is that really what I want? Sacrifice everything to get to 2x? Get my body broken down from all the jumps and landings because I weigh 90 kg? Only be able to jump a few times and go home? So on and so forth?

That's the thing. And I do kind of fit in that lanky category so...

Of course I'd like to be at 2x+, but is it worth it athletically? I'm feeling much more athletic now (jump higher, move better etc) than I felt when I was 86-87 kg with a squat 1RM of 155-160 kg. I have no idea what my squat is now since I haven't squatted in ~2 months but you better believe it's under NO WAY at that ~150 level right now.

Sure, stopping squatting helped recover and really "show" my built up potential through the months of squatting I did in the past, now that I had the chance to actually focus on jumping, but you get the idea.

seifullaah73

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 05:43:39 pm »
-1
I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
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Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 07:08:12 pm »
0
This is actually very easy to answer and vag is getting decently close with his post.

Yes, it might be more difficult for one guy than for the other to increase his squat. We do not even have to get into the height and levers debate, individuals just vary in their abilities, period. But every healthy male under 40 has a very decent chance to reach the rather modest goal of a 2x bw squat IF he is willing to gain the necessary bodyweight to accommodate serious training and improvements.
There are gifted people (A) that do not need to gain ANY bodyweight to achieve a 2 x bw squat in less than 6 months. If you are that person, congrats to you, you lucked out in the genetic lottery. But most people struggle with that, HARD (B). They increase their strength, sure, but it takes them ages to get to decent levels because they insist on staying skinny. If you are that person, you are making life more difficult than it needs to be. More importantly, you are wasting very valuable time because it will certainly not get easier to achieve your athletic goals with the years.
There are basically two options if you are type B: You can creep forward 25 lbs in the squat per year while not gaining any bodyweight and maybe, MAYBE someday achieve your strength goal that way. Or you can make the reasonable decision and begin eating like someone that trains HARD and have a 2 x bw squat in a couple of months - guaranteed. Sure, you will be heavier. Sure, you might not see your abs anymore. But you are also much, much stronger to move the bodyweight around. 200 lbs is not a high bodyweight if you squat 500, is it?

Now, what is holding people back? It is a lack of realistic self-assessment of ones own talent (for example in regards to strength) and not doing the things that would logically correspond with such an assessment. In other words, if you are type B and make yourself believe that you could be type A, then you will be the guy that has a really, really hard time getting a 2 x bw squat. For everyone else, this is just an increment that comes and gets surpassed rather soon.

I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.

There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number. I would not worry too much about slowing down after the 2.5 mark because you have to get there first.  
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 07:14:28 pm by steven-miller »

Kingfish

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 11:39:20 pm »
+1
you are struggling with 1.5BW. you need to fix your diet. somethings not right here. you get to 2BW. the real struggling starts there.
5'10" | 210lbs | 39 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 545x1| standing VJ - 40"|

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Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

vag

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 03:53:26 am »
0
I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.

1)Get to 2,5BW.
2)Test your vert.
3)Get to 3xBW.
4)Test your vert.
5)???
6)Profit.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 08:15:41 am »
0
I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.

1)Get to 2,5BW.
2)Test your vert.
3)Get to 3xBW.
4)Test your vert.
5)???
6)Profit.

You really believe that? For me personally, to get there, I'd probably have to not jump at all, just squat and get big. So basically I'd train to jump higher by not jumping at all and when I do jump, do 2-3 jumps, get tired/injured because I'm heavy, go home. Wow, great fun!

The amount of effort to get to 2.5-3x, time for recovery, money, food, weight, bodyfat, you name it - it... it's just not worth it in my opinion. I'd be all for it if I knew it would actually help me, but I'm not very sure about that.

vag

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 08:56:24 am »
0
My point was that you never know until you try.
I disagree with all extreme opinions, such as yours that says you are too heavy to jump and you are destroying your tendons being 87kg.
To make it more general, i don't like to read that "i heard going to 2,5*BW wil make you slow", go there and see if it made you slow.
Oh , by the way all those regarding DL jumpers!

Also , kellyb talking about that issue:

Quote
As for heavy weights making you slow, this is only true of people who carry strength training to the extreme. Even then, it's not the strength or heavy weight that creates slowness, it is the excessive muscular bodyweight that can develop. To verify this all you have to do is look at olympic weightlifters. Their entire sport is based on lifting heavy weights, yet they have the best vertical jumps of all athletes and are as fast as sprinters out to 30 meters.

( Found in http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpfaq.html )
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

Mikey

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 08:58:30 am »
0
My point was that you never know until you try.
I disagree with all extreme opinions, such as yours that says you are too heavy to jump and you are destroying your tendons being 87kg.
To make it more general, i don't like to read that "i heard going to 2,5*BW wil make you slow", go there and see if it made you slow.
Oh , by the way all those regarding DL jumpers!

Also , kellyb talking about that issue:

Quote
As for heavy weights making you slow, this is only true of people who carry strength training to the extreme. Even then, it's not the strength or heavy weight that creates slowness, it is the excessive muscular bodyweight that can develop. To verify this all you have to do is look at olympic weightlifters. Their entire sport is based on lifting heavy weights, yet they have the best vertical jumps of all athletes and are as fast as sprinters out to 30 meters.

( Found in http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpfaq.html )
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 09:08:21 am by Mutumbo000 »
"IMO, It didn't happen if it's not on vid/official"- adarqui

It's easier to keep up than it is to catch up...

steven-miller

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 09:51:14 am »
0
You really believe that? For me personally, to get there, I'd probably have to not jump at all, just squat and get big. So basically I'd train to jump higher by not jumping at all and when I do jump, do 2-3 jumps, get tired/injured because I'm heavy, go home. Wow, great fun!

The amount of effort to get to 2.5-3x, time for recovery, money, food, weight, bodyfat, you name it - it... it's just not worth it in my opinion. I'd be all for it if I knew it would actually help me, but I'm not very sure about that.

It's not that you are (or ever were) in danger of getting close to 2.5 anyway, so that is kind of a moot point.

Of course there is no way to know whether a gain in strength is going to have a positive impact on your VJ or if the costs are larger than the benefits. But you don't get to redefine the costs, they are largely determined by your genetic potential and if a type B guy insists on not gaining any bw then it is very possible that he is wasting his time with strength training.

So it would be better in my opinion to just get stronger and swallow up the costs. Then evaluate the benefits and go from there.
What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?

LBSS

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 09:54:53 am »
+1
god damn it, steven-miller, you've gotten better at writing, which means i'm actually reading your posts now, which means i'm buying what you're selling.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Raptor

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 10:08:08 am »
0
What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?

What about really going explosive, be it going very heavy with very low rep ranges (1-3, since these rep ranges force the recruitment of a very high % of the motor neurons) or using lighter weights and moving the bar as fast as possible (where the bar actually moves fast as well). There will be some hypertrophy involved as well considering the TUT, not that much as a regular strength workout (say 3x5) but the thing would be to make you learn to generate a lot of force very quickly (faster neural signals).

As a B guy you're still probably far away from generating the maximum amount of power you can from your current muscles, with no additional hypertrophy, so why not work on improving that?

If you can squat 300 lbs and only use 50% of that in the jumps, and you improve onto using 70-80% of that in the jumps by improving the neural signals with no additional muscle gain, then you will jump higher.

vag

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Re: how much squat for athletes?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 10:26:30 am »
+2
^

Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?