Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: entropy on June 18, 2012, 12:04:59 pm
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Wondering about the Double Bodyweight Squat Rule of Thumb (DBSRT) as a goal for guys wanting to improve their sprint and jump.
Take two guys
- A. 5'9", solid build, weighing 80kg at ~12% bodyfat, he's build for lifting and quickly attains the double bw squat for reps.
- B. 6'2", long limbs, slender build, weighing 80kg, 12% bodyfat, he's not build for lifting and struggles to squat 1.75*BW for a max.
It seems to me, that the rule of thumb doesn't do a good job distinguishing that the double goal is fairly easy for A but very difficult for B. B needs to gain a lot more bodyweight before his max can even approach the weights which B is currently repping regularly for say 5x5. The rule doesn't take into account that A is very close to his maximum lean/athletic mass, while B is not and requires a lot more muscle to have better levers, but if he did gain the bw it might be a big tradeoff, costing athleticism.
Then you might have a guy C. 6'3", solid build, 100kg @ 12% who can squat fair in excess of both A and B, but you can expect that very few if any B's could become Cs.
Wondering if a better rule of thumb ought to be based on BMI rather than just BW.
As for myself, I'am struggling with even squatting 1.5BW for reps, leave alone even thinking about 2*BW any time in the next 18 months. It might not even possible for me to squat 2BW without gaining a lot of BW which would kill any dream of being athletic.
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"^ no offense to RutgersDunker or anybody who is sub 5'10.. but IMO, it will take a LOT more strength to get the same jumps compared to somebody with longer leverages.. (5'10++). if RutgersDunker grows to 5'10+... he should be mid-forearming the rim with 2 hands from an SVJ with that leg explosiveness. i can SVJ the same rim RVJ grabs in his vids with a max squat ratio that is considerable lower than his." (Kingfish)
I don't really like giving advice or even posting much on jumping since I suck at it. But from what I've read from guys like Kelly B it seems like if you take guy A and guy B in your example you'd always expect guy B to be able to jump higher if they could both squat exactly 2x their bodyweight. This is because guy B has to produce a lot more force to squat 2x bodyweight than guy A.
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Yeah, this is very interesting.
The question is not if the 'not-for-squat' built guy should aim to squat 2*BW , of course he should , he should aim for 3 and 4 times BW too if he can.
The question is if it is realistic for such builds to expect to reach 2*BW. I don't know the answer.
What i think should we do? Just get the squat as high as we can , regardless of the built. Work your ass off , chase progressive overloading, use peaking and plateau busting techniques when gains stagnate and all over again. The quest is not to get a standard squat to bodyweight ratio, the quest is to get your squat to bodyeweight ratio as high as possible.
Also, it's not about height , just height by itself says nothing. It is all about leverages, a combination of legs and torso length.
Some relevant discussion in here:
http://www.adarq.org/forum/crazy-weird-analysis-stuff-%29/the-squat-thread/
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Well...
I have been squatting consistently for 2 years and haven't got to 2x. Could I have gotten there? Of course, if I were to bulk and weigh 90 kg now. But is that really what I want? Sacrifice everything to get to 2x? Get my body broken down from all the jumps and landings because I weigh 90 kg? Only be able to jump a few times and go home? So on and so forth?
That's the thing. And I do kind of fit in that lanky category so...
Of course I'd like to be at 2x+, but is it worth it athletically? I'm feeling much more athletic now (jump higher, move better etc) than I felt when I was 86-87 kg with a squat 1RM of 155-160 kg. I have no idea what my squat is now since I haven't squatted in ~2 months but you better believe it's under NO WAY at that ~150 level right now.
Sure, stopping squatting helped recover and really "show" my built up potential through the months of squatting I did in the past, now that I had the chance to actually focus on jumping, but you get the idea.
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
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This is actually very easy to answer and vag is getting decently close with his post.
Yes, it might be more difficult for one guy than for the other to increase his squat. We do not even have to get into the height and levers debate, individuals just vary in their abilities, period. But every healthy male under 40 has a very decent chance to reach the rather modest goal of a 2x bw squat IF he is willing to gain the necessary bodyweight to accommodate serious training and improvements.
There are gifted people (A) that do not need to gain ANY bodyweight to achieve a 2 x bw squat in less than 6 months. If you are that person, congrats to you, you lucked out in the genetic lottery. But most people struggle with that, HARD (B). They increase their strength, sure, but it takes them ages to get to decent levels because they insist on staying skinny. If you are that person, you are making life more difficult than it needs to be. More importantly, you are wasting very valuable time because it will certainly not get easier to achieve your athletic goals with the years.
There are basically two options if you are type B: You can creep forward 25 lbs in the squat per year while not gaining any bodyweight and maybe, MAYBE someday achieve your strength goal that way. Or you can make the reasonable decision and begin eating like someone that trains HARD and have a 2 x bw squat in a couple of months - guaranteed. Sure, you will be heavier. Sure, you might not see your abs anymore. But you are also much, much stronger to move the bodyweight around. 200 lbs is not a high bodyweight if you squat 500, is it?
Now, what is holding people back? It is a lack of realistic self-assessment of ones own talent (for example in regards to strength) and not doing the things that would logically correspond with such an assessment. In other words, if you are type B and make yourself believe that you could be type A, then you will be the guy that has a really, really hard time getting a 2 x bw squat. For everyone else, this is just an increment that comes and gets surpassed rather soon.
I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number. I would not worry too much about slowing down after the 2.5 mark because you have to get there first.
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you are struggling with 1.5BW. you need to fix your diet. somethings not right here. you get to 2BW. the real struggling starts there.
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
1)Get to 2,5BW.
2)Test your vert.
3)Get to 3xBW.
4)Test your vert.
5)???
6)Profit.
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
1)Get to 2,5BW.
2)Test your vert.
3)Get to 3xBW.
4)Test your vert.
5)???
6)Profit.
You really believe that? For me personally, to get there, I'd probably have to not jump at all, just squat and get big. So basically I'd train to jump higher by not jumping at all and when I do jump, do 2-3 jumps, get tired/injured because I'm heavy, go home. Wow, great fun!
The amount of effort to get to 2.5-3x, time for recovery, money, food, weight, bodyfat, you name it - it... it's just not worth it in my opinion. I'd be all for it if I knew it would actually help me, but I'm not very sure about that.
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My point was that you never know until you try.
I disagree with all extreme opinions, such as yours that says you are too heavy to jump and you are destroying your tendons being 87kg.
To make it more general, i don't like to read that "i heard going to 2,5*BW wil make you slow", go there and see if it made you slow.
Oh , by the way all those regarding DL jumpers!
Also , kellyb talking about that issue:
As for heavy weights making you slow, this is only true of people who carry strength training to the extreme. Even then, it's not the strength or heavy weight that creates slowness, it is the excessive muscular bodyweight that can develop. To verify this all you have to do is look at olympic weightlifters. Their entire sport is based on lifting heavy weights, yet they have the best vertical jumps of all athletes and are as fast as sprinters out to 30 meters.
( Found in http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpfaq.html )
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My point was that you never know until you try.
I disagree with all extreme opinions, such as yours that says you are too heavy to jump and you are destroying your tendons being 87kg.
To make it more general, i don't like to read that "i heard going to 2,5*BW wil make you slow", go there and see if it made you slow.
Oh , by the way all those regarding DL jumpers!
Also , kellyb talking about that issue:
As for heavy weights making you slow, this is only true of people who carry strength training to the extreme. Even then, it's not the strength or heavy weight that creates slowness, it is the excessive muscular bodyweight that can develop. To verify this all you have to do is look at olympic weightlifters. Their entire sport is based on lifting heavy weights, yet they have the best vertical jumps of all athletes and are as fast as sprinters out to 30 meters.
( Found in http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpfaq.html )
I lol'd. Kelly please!
From Elite Track-
Tests of Olympic sprinters versus Olympic weightlifters for their 30m and vertical? Never happened. I think Verko or one of those other Rooskis talk a lot about it, but provide 0 evidence or names.
We actually discussed this quite a bit on here about a year ago. I think Mort actually emailed Yessis I believe. If I recall correctly the tests were done but it wasn稚 organized and there was never any landmark paper as is cited all over the net.
yes. here is what was posted on the forum:
覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧-
Dr. Yessis,
I often hear about the study (done by you, I believe) that compared short
sprint times of weightlifter and sprinters. It showed that weightlifters
had better starting speed than olympic sprinter. Where can I find this
study? Thanks!
======================================== ==========================
don稚 recall if I mentioned a study or wrote up what I learned in the
Soviet weightlifing literature. The information should read that world
class weightlifters can out do world class sprinters for the first 5-10
meters. Also, some had better absolute vericals but especially in relation
to their size as for example Alexeyev. This does not apply to all
weightlifters, only the better ones
Michael Yessis, Ph.D
Professor Emeritus, CSUF
President, Sports Training, Inc.
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You really believe that? For me personally, to get there, I'd probably have to not jump at all, just squat and get big. So basically I'd train to jump higher by not jumping at all and when I do jump, do 2-3 jumps, get tired/injured because I'm heavy, go home. Wow, great fun!
The amount of effort to get to 2.5-3x, time for recovery, money, food, weight, bodyfat, you name it - it... it's just not worth it in my opinion. I'd be all for it if I knew it would actually help me, but I'm not very sure about that.
It's not that you are (or ever were) in danger of getting close to 2.5 anyway, so that is kind of a moot point.
Of course there is no way to know whether a gain in strength is going to have a positive impact on your VJ or if the costs are larger than the benefits. But you don't get to redefine the costs, they are largely determined by your genetic potential and if a type B guy insists on not gaining any bw then it is very possible that he is wasting his time with strength training.
So it would be better in my opinion to just get stronger and swallow up the costs. Then evaluate the benefits and go from there.
What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?
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god damn it, steven-miller, you've gotten better at writing, which means i'm actually reading your posts now, which means i'm buying what you're selling.
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What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?
What about really going explosive, be it going very heavy with very low rep ranges (1-3, since these rep ranges force the recruitment of a very high % of the motor neurons) or using lighter weights and moving the bar as fast as possible (where the bar actually moves fast as well). There will be some hypertrophy involved as well considering the TUT, not that much as a regular strength workout (say 3x5) but the thing would be to make you learn to generate a lot of force very quickly (faster neural signals).
As a B guy you're still probably far away from generating the maximum amount of power you can from your current muscles, with no additional hypertrophy, so why not work on improving that?
If you can squat 300 lbs and only use 50% of that in the jumps, and you improve onto using 70-80% of that in the jumps by improving the neural signals with no additional muscle gain, then you will jump higher.
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^
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.
- Avishek
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Good call.
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What other reasonable choices really exist if you fall into the B category?
What about really going explosive, be it going very heavy with very low rep ranges (1-3, since these rep ranges force the recruitment of a very high % of the motor neurons) [...]
What is the progressive overload in this training method? More weight, right? And if you use more weight and hold everything else constant, you got stronger. And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.
[...] or using lighter weights and moving the bar as fast as possible (where the bar actually moves fast as well). There will be some hypertrophy involved as well considering the TUT, not that much as a regular strength workout (say 3x5) but the thing would be to make you learn to generate a lot of force very quickly (faster neural signals).
If this was an alternative then it would be easier to increase the olympic lifts than it is to increase the squat. I, and everyone else that tried, knows that this is not the case.
Explosive lifts (especially clean and snatch variations) are king when it comes to decreasing an explosive strength deficit (ESD). Gains in this area will come very quickly, but will not come for a long time. A couple weeks of adequate training and there is not much left from the ESD that you could utilize. After that you are back where you started. You can't increase max strength efficiently without a bw increase and you can't make existent strength usable for explosive events anymore because there is not enough ESD left - in other words, you do not have enough excess max strength...
god damn it, steven-miller, you've gotten better at writing, which means i'm actually reading your posts now, which means i'm buying what you're selling.
I am glad to get through...
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And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.
Why?
Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.
The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW
or
should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.
or
is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
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Seriously, I can't understand a thing of what you're saying...
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
How do you increase your squat 150% w/out gaining mass?
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW
or
should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.
or
is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
You do sets of 5 in the squat every couple of days and add weight every time. You do this until you hit 2.5 x bw.
If you get stuck before (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again, vary volumes+intensities in the squat over the week and hit PRs weekly. Always eat enough to NOT fail scheduled reps and sets unnecessarily.
And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.
Why?
Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.
If the person could increase his strength without adding more bw, he would not have a problem, right? He can do that as long as it works, I am not against it at all. But when this person gets seriously stuck being still rather weak and his training weights are creeping upwards very slowly or not at all, then there is no reasonable alternative to gaining more muscle. If you squat less then two times your bodyweight and you are not AT LEAST making a mean increase of 5 lbs per week in the squat over a considerable time span, you are fooling around.
Check yourself: Look into your training logs from 6 months ago. When the weight you were doing then is not at least 100 lbs lighter then it is now, then there is a problem (given that everything else in your training is up to par and you are still under 2 x bw).
The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?
You train powersnatches. When you don't make progress at least weekly, you need to gain strength.
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW
or
should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.
or
is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
You do sets of 5 in the squat every couple of days and add weight every time. You do this until you hit 2.5 x bw.
If you get stuck before (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again (fail twice in a row), deload 10% and work back up. If you get stuck again, vary volumes+intensities in the squat over the week and hit PRs weekly. Always eat enough to NOT fail scheduled reps and sets unnecessarily.
And for type A stronger is possible without gains in bw, and for type B it is not - as we defined. So herein does not lie a solution.
Why?
Maybe athlete A can naturally recruit 80% of his motor neurons when he jumps, whereas athlete B needs training to get to those 80% from his current 50%. He can do that without the need of additional muscle. Once he gets there, then obviously there's no other way than increasing muscle mass.
If the person could increase his strength without adding more bw, he would not have a problem, right? He can do that as long as it works, I am not against it at all. But when this person gets seriously stuck being still rather weak and his training weights are creeping upwards very slowly or not at all, then there is no reasonable alternative to gaining more muscle. If you squat less then two times your bodyweight and you are not AT LEAST making a mean increase of 5 lbs per week in the squat over a considerable time span, you are fooling around.
Check yourself: Look into your training logs from 6 months ago. When the weight you were doing then is not at least 100 lbs lighter then it is now, then there is a problem (given that everything else in your training is up to par and you are still under 2 x bw).
The question is - how can you know where you're at in terms of quick&high % recruitment ability and if you should continue to work on that or not?
You train powersnatches. When you don't make progress at least weekly, you need to gain strength.
I agree with everything you said.
In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!
If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW
or
should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.
or
is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
lol.
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!
If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.
What if you're limited by upperbody strength like I am? I could probably powersnatch more than I currently am if I wasn't afraid of not being able to hold the bar over my head/stabilize it/stop it there etc.
And why powersnatch and not say powerclean?
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In the powersnatches, though, it could be a matter of technique that's limiting you and not strength. For me personally, having weak shoulders, I'm afraid of using heavier weights (heavier than my max of 50 kg) since I have a BIG problem stabilizing the bar overhead and even keeping it there!
If technique is bad but consistent, the rule still applies. If you have a sufficient ESD you should be able to PR your powersnatch every week.
What if you're limited by upperbody strength like I am? I could probably powersnatch more than I currently am if I wasn't afraid of not being able to hold the bar over my head/stabilize it/stop it there etc.
And why powersnatch and not say powerclean?
If you don't have enough upperbody strength to stabilize more than 50 kg overhead your training went severely wrong.
Luckily, powercleans would work just fine as well.
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So if someone wanted to increase his squat from 1xBW to 2.5xBW and his next plan is to do hypertrophy to gain some mass, which would be more muscle fibres to utilize. Would it be more wise to:
try increase your squat in the hypertrophy until you reach 2.5xBW
or
should the aim be increase muscle mass, which includes the squat but finish off when you have acquired enough mass and then move on to a strength training routine to carry on increasing your squat where you left of but instead of moving slowly like it was done during hypertrophy but with speed in mind.
or
is there another way because the aim is to increase squat and the hypertrophy workout is next.
lol.
Whats funny about my post?
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Cool. Because in the powerclean I got from struggling to hang powerclean 70 kg to consistently hang powercleaning 80 kg, while the hang powersnatch stayed at ~45 consistently.
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number.
Im gonna get there one day :pissed:
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I heard that you should squat max about 2.5x bw else if you exceed that then you will start to slow down as you bulk up. so wouldn't squatting 3 or 4x bw slow you down.
There are maybe 5 people on this forum that get close to this number.
Im gonna get there one day :pissed:
YOU are not the person to worry about.
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you are struggling with 1.5BW. you need to fix your diet. somethings not right here. you get to 2BW. the real struggling starts there.
There is an implicit assumption there that the journey is the same. I am not sure if that's the case, which is what I was getting at in the OP. It might be for someone completely normal to have the struggle begin at 1.5x not 2x. Right? I get the feeling people who are build to squat, just have to show up and they build up some impressive poundages, without seeing the fuss. But why should it be the same across individuals?
But in this case you're, along with stevenmiller almost right, my situation is mostly about diet. I'm about 7.5kg away from my squat goal (perhaps 6-8 weeks away), and if I maintain that goal while cutting down 3-4kg of bw to get to an athletic 10-12%bf, I'd most surely have a 1.75BW squat. From there I can go about doing a legitimate bulk to chase 2*BW. What I am not prepared to do this moment is chase a big squat now starting from my current BW (~85kg, 15-22% bf, 6'3" no shoes), which is too fat/heavy, even though I desperately need to gain a whole load of meat in my legs (22" thighs) and chasing the big squat right now would almost definitely lead to being much fatter (>>30%) than I can accept.
Needless to say I will be thrilled to have 1.75BW at an athletic bodyfat if everything goes to plan. After that i'll be happy to gain some weight as long as I am gaining decent muscle but i'm prepared for for the situation where that wont physically happen and I just get fatter, in which case I wont go further than 1.75.
Incidentally my goal is to squat 130x3@80kg, or around a max of 140kg, which is 1.75BW. Currently my most recent triple was 120x3@86kg. I should have 122.5x3@85 this coming friday though.
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How often do you squat?
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I squat 3x a week, it's the first lift I do and it's the main one I focus on in the gym. I never miss workouts and try to make progress as often as I can.
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Good. You can make good progress movement efficiency-wise by squatting very often. I squatted every day for a while and really got my squat up because I became so efficient at it, and then, once you're very efficient, you can really start to adapt muscularily (not just neurally) to that load since you're using a ton of weight at that point.
Obviously, just a way you can go, I'm not saying "go for it" but this is the way I got my squat up to 140x5. Sure, once I stopped squatting frequently it got down but I have a feeling that if I were to continue with that high frequency it would've been great. You can't help but adapt muscularily too considering you're moving a heavier weight so often.
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Bumping this thread because I have been wondering what's a good goal for a front squat if you're not a natural backsquatter. If 2bw olympic backsquat is a good goal for athletic purposes, what's a good goal for FS? 1.8?
My reasoning for 1.8 is that i've read that a good olympic lifter should be able to front squat 90% of his best HBBS, so 90% of 2bw is 1.8bw. For an 80kg/176lb athlete that would require a FS of 144kg or just shy of 320lb.
On the other hand, elite olympic lifters are very efficient so perhaps 2bw for ordinary mortals would translate to a FS of around 85% of HBBS so it would be a FS of 1.7bw. So the same athlete as before would require 'only' a front squat shy of ~300lb. Is this reasonable?
Just my conjectures of course, would be interested in hearing others opinions
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Bumping this thread because I have been wondering what's a good goal for a front squat if you're not a natural backsquatter. If 2bw olympic backsquat is a good goal for athletic purposes, what's a good goal for FS? 1.8?
My reasoning for 1.8 is that i've read that a good olympic lifter should be able to front squat 90% of his best HBBS, so 90% of 2bw is 1.8bw. For an 80kg/176lb athlete that would require a FS of 144kg or just shy of 320lb.
On the other hand, elite olympic lifters are very efficient so perhaps 2bw for ordinary mortals would translate to a FS of around 85% of HBBS so it would be a FS of 1.7bw. So the same athlete as before would require 'only' a front squat shy of ~300lb. Is this reasonable?
Just my conjectures of course, would be interested in hearing others opinions
IT DEPENDS. christ.
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After calculating the CORRECT ratio during the years it came up to 1.824245(9), with the (9) being a very important part of the result. It makes all the difference in the world.
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I love the ratios.
Here is my take (and I may be the source of the 2.5xbw squat making you slow)
2xBW is attainable by every male. Now it may come easy for some and not so easy for others. But everyone can do it. The efforts in reaching this level should not interfere with your standard sport/jump training.
2.5xbw is much harder to get too but can be done by some without interfering with your goals (why are we squatting in the first place)
Over 2.5xbw requires too much strength training specialization. If this is your goal then fine. I have squatted slightly over 3xbw and let me tell you it took years of dedicated strength training. The effort required to do this, IMO, requires you to spend too much time away from your goal (jumping and sport right). In other words to reach this goal you have become a strength athlete (PLer or OLYer) and are no longer an athlete (bball, jump, etc...).
Dave tate said as much in his article today
If an OLineman can squat 600 (~2xBW) will increasing his squat to 700 improve his performance or should all the special exercise (time, energy, recovery ability) required to get there be better spent learning the play book, recognizing defenses, improving footwork and blocking technique?
In my experience our best jumpers squatted in the 2-2.5 bw area. Our best jumper ever 42" squatted 2.5xbw. He was really reactive. like a pogo stick. If this is you then the 2.5bw squat may be the prescription. If not then 2xbw may be the right fit. At over 2.5xbw we see less carry over. Why? IMO it takes too much specialization. At that point you are a squatter and not a jumper.
So your squat should be on a continual upward path but it should compliment your goal, not be your ultimate goal (if you are an athlete)
how do you get there?
I like the starting strength model -> texas method (although not the GOMAD approach)
day 1
squat 3x5
Press 3x5
Clean/jump squat 5x3
Day 2
Squat 3x5
Bench 3x5
DL 1x5
then move to texas method... I'll just show the squat
Day 1
Squat 5x5 using 90% of previous Fridays 1rm
Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load
Day 5
Squat 1x5rm
Now monday is the training stimulus day, wed is active rest, friday is testing.
If friday is not increasing you modify mondays workout.
2 options:
If your 5rm stalls and you cannot complete all 5x5 monday then you need to decrease mondays volume. Maybe use same weight and do 3x5 or 6x3.
If your 5rm stalls and you are completing mondays 5x5 then monday is not hard enough. Go heavier on monday and do 5x5 or you can go even heavier and do 6x3, etc... you get the idea, make Mondays squat session suck even more.
I like the approach because we are modifying the weights around your sport practice and not the other way around because we are athletes first and foremost. That is why most of us are here. Not for PLing but for jump and sport.
the Texas method should not interfere too much with your sport training as there is only really 1 shitty workout in the week: monday.
Now if you want to peak for testing your jump or the upcoming season it is also simple to modify: replace fridays 1x5rm with a DE day like so:
Day 1
Squat 5x5 using 90% of previous Fridays 1rm
Low-mod jumps
Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load
Low-mod jumps
Day 5
Squat 50-70% x 8-10 x 2-3
Plus high intensity jumping
Then for a more advanced sport program add in the 1x5rm and replace 5x5 with DE method Like:
Day 1
Squat 50-70% x 8-10 x 2-3
Hi int jumps
Day 3
Squat 2x5 using 80% of mondays load
Low- jumps
Day 5
Squat 1 x 5rm
Plus mod intensity jumping
Whew!
In long term planning I think this should make up the first 2-3 years. Then when it stalls and the modifications stop working I would move more towards the russian style programming.
this should get people thinking a bit
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Great advice man.
i never knew that attaining 3xbw would be so hard that to achieve it you have to concentrate solely on squats and therefore you ignore the sport specific workout and start becoming 'rubbish' at the sport you are trying to be good at.
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if you are 200lbs then 3xbw is 600. how many 600lb squatters are out there. People on boards make reaching those levels seem easy. Getting to 3xbw is tough. I have had surgeries trying to get to that level. If you are an athlete your surgeries should come from your sport and not the weight room.
Imagine how much of a toll squatting 570 for 3x3 would take on the body. how much of your recovery ability would it sapp. what toll would it take on the joints: hips and knees. now all that recovery ability that should be spent recovering from practice is now spend adapting to the squat. Also could you squat 570x3x3 and still play ball later that day. Still go to practice and give it 100% No way in hell. Even if you did how much worse would your joints feel. All that sprinting and landing in addition to that brutal squat workout.
Something has to give. IMO when training an athlete I would rather have them play and practice over squatting big. Afterall the sport is the goal, not the squat (unless PLing)
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the best i've gotten my squat ratio were consistent 2.6BW paused reps. doing multiple 2.5-2.6BW daily does not guarantee i can get >2.6BW after a deload. most likely, il suck from de-training if i stop.
it gets exponentially more difficult for the lower back to stabilize the RM weight the heavier it is. i've done 440lb paused reps routinely at some point this year (before i got myself weaker doing tons of calf work..lol). i'm also surprised how weak i am now at the same weight. i did 425s a while back 2x/day. i need to take it easy with the calf work in a few weeks.
taken from my log on page 42. not modified in anyway. i was already at the same 170lb BW at this time.
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Sun - 1/2 Morning 4am
Mar 25, 2012
Daily Squats Maintenance - Paused Rep Warmups / Paused Rep Backup Front Squats
[200,250x4][300,350x2][400,425x1]
* slept saturday 8:30am-3:30pm. did not lift strong on the afternoon and nights. not yet completely sleep recovered IMO because legs did not feel tired at all. after the 8pm workout, slept from 12-3am, and did the morning workout early because i felt fresh already.
* starting to get the CNS firing strong again. stopped at a controlled and explosive paused 425x1. will go heavier later after another set of midday sleep
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Sun - 2/2 Afternoon 1am
Mar 25, 2012
Daily Squats Maintenance - Paused Rep Warmups / Paused Rep Backup Front Squats
[200,250x4][300x2][350,400,425x1]
* not enough explosiveness to get a clean 435-440x1. the 425x1 felt like the max weight already for strictest form. a full stop at the bottom and no jerking the weight to get it going - just pushing the hand up on the bar while keeping torso upright/elbows directly underneath the bar + unbending knees + pushing glutes forward.
* did some 2 hand dunks (usually do max height jumps with chuck taylors with for the drop jump training effect). even with all these squat frequency, my SVJ is still in the high 30s/low 40s. i was consistent on my standing reverse dunks too.
Sat Sun Mon Tue Wed Thur Fri
Feb 25 Feb 26 Feb 27 Feb 28 Feb 29 Mar 1 Mar 2
400/425 425 425/440 435/425 425/440 425/440 425
Mar 3 Mar 4 Mar 5 Mar 6 Mar 7 Mar 8 Mar 9
425 400/425 425/425 425/425 425/425 400+400 425
Mar 10 Mar 11 Mar 12 Mar 13 Mar 14 Mar 15 Mar 16
400/400 425/425 425/425 425/425 400/435 425/435 425/435
Mar 17 Mar 18 Mar 19 Mar 20 Mar 21 Mar 22 Mar 23
425/425 425/400 425/425 435/425 425/435 425/440 400
Mar 24 Mar 25
400/400 425/425
* will end these 2x/day single near max paused rep singles today.
Experience points from the 1 month cycle:
* no need for aggressive stimulation once confidence on the weight is gained - gained from doing it repeatedly 2x day. everyday. for a month.
* gauging my fatigue level, even though far from an exact science - has been improved a lot. i would not have made it thru all these weeks of 2.5-2.6BW+ if i consistently get pinned or use a weight that is well over my strength for that day.
* sleep is very important for the CNS. no sleep, even with the muscle mass of a tom platz will not get you lifting near max weights. maybe its just me, but id prefer partially recovered legs after a good sleep than the other way around (long hours between workouts rests the legs but if sleep is not there, its still useless).
* now that 425-435 paused is repeatable for me, id probably switch to a multi 2-4rep sets using 400-425 non-paused to add more leg mass but will make sure i don't tenderize my upper knee tendons like i did with that 2 week daily 440x1 top non-paused single.
* with some low frequency of near max SVJs, even with all these squats - my SVJ actually did not just maintain, it even got more boss.
* will vid a vertec jump test tmrw to validate e-stat :headbang: