Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: adarqui on June 05, 2009, 04:11:33 pm
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well i've decided to change my training dramatically, as is seen in my new journal with 500+ ankle hops with a 45 lb. bar... hah
anyway, i decided to change it because, even though I have made progress in my jumping focusing primarily on hip strength, my ankles remain lacking.. my ankles have improved since I started on this journey, dont get my wrong, they dont sink as much in my plants when I do my running jumps, but they do sink too much.
I want to truly figure this out.. I've attempted in the past, but, i already had an ankle injury at the time, so that wasnt a great time to experiment, and was forced to quit.
I personally feel that dramatic ankle stiffness will improve my vert dramatically, allowing me to use even more of the hip strength I already have... but I'm talking significant gains here in ankle stiffness, not just the "ya it feels better" kind.. im talking about visually noticable differences in all of my movements, plants, and jumps.. and I want these changes to become permanent, not just temporary stiffness like I get from doing stiff leg angle hops a few times per week.
after performing 500+ ankle hops with a 45 lb. bar yesterday, I assumed I would feel horrible today... well my quads,hamstrings,calfs and glutes feel incredibly good.. my back does feel very tight though - which is why i might have to alternate DB variations with barbell variations to take less load off my spine.
anyway, I plan on using only a few variations to target ankle stiffness:
- weighted ankle hops
- weighted alternating lunge hops on balls of feet
- weighted low squat ankle hops
- basketball dribbling explosively
- different types of max effort jumps
- high intensity barbell calf raises to increase my limit strength in the PF's
I plan on using high volume for these sessions:
day 1: bball dribbling, weighted ankle hops @ 10 x 50, barbell calf raise: heavy singles (~5-10)
day 2: rest
day 3: bball dribbling + jumps, weighted ankle hops (2x50), weighted alternating lunge hops (3 x 20 each leg), weighted low squat ankle hops (3x50)
day 4: rest
day 5: jumps, above parallel squat singles, barbell lunge singles, heavy calf raise singles (only a few)
day 6: rest
etc
i mean that's not at all set in stone, but you get the idea of my general template... very high volume on the ankle work, with a 2:1 training ratio of ankle to max strength, while getting more rest.
the barbell squat/lunge singles will probably be around 80-90% max now, not going close to 100% max like i enjoy doing...
i do not think i need depth jumps or depth drops in a routine such as this... i think i will be getting plenty of work already..
anyway, input on my crazy ideas is welcome.
edit: the reason im doing everything weighted, is I want alot more reflexive force production when I land in those positions.. and I can progressively overload (albeit small progressions) those positions and keep increasing my stiffness properly.. If i could reflexively gain more force output in any of those positions, my jumping should improve.. I psyche myself up way too much to jump, I need more tendon power.
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This looks like a really interesting experiment. I can't wait to see the results!
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You are a crazy guy Andrew
Looking forward to hearing about your results
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Yeah, you're crazy, but I'm liking it. I would like to point out that studies indicate isometrics do result in better increases in tendon stiffness than do plyos. Neglecting calf ISOs would probably not be the best idea. And to reduce loading on your back, I'd do them one foot at a time and holding a heavy DB in hand.
Good luck, Andrew. I really want to see how this goes.
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Yeah, you're crazy, but I'm liking it. I would like to point out that studies indicate isometrics do result in better increases in tendon stiffness than do plyos. Neglecting calf ISOs would probably not be the best idea. And to reduce loading on your back, I'd do them one foot at a time and holding a heavy DB in hand.
Good luck, Andrew. I really want to see how this goes.
How do you do an ISO unilateral calf raise in the stretch wihout falling over!?
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Yeah, you're crazy, but I'm liking it. I would like to point out that studies indicate isometrics do result in better increases in tendon stiffness than do plyos. Neglecting calf ISOs would probably not be the best idea. And to reduce loading on your back, I'd do them one foot at a time and holding a heavy DB in hand.
Good luck, Andrew. I really want to see how this goes.
"am i crazy? or am i crazy like a fox" -- bernard hopkins
ok i will experiment with the isos, but not single leg... I can handle the weight on my back during normal lifts, it's just that doing ankle hops with 45 lb. on your back is pretty intense upon landing even though the bar is light...
how long do you hold them? 30 seconds?
peace
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Joe, do them on a step and put your free hand on the railing.
Andrew, 30-60 seconds, and make sure you're in the stretch.
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What are your thoughts about using a weighted vest Adarqui? If you're going to jump with weights I would think it would be a lot easier to do it with something like a MiR weighted vest than a barbell on your back or with dumbells.
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What are your thoughts about using a weighted vest Adarqui? If you're going to jump with weights I would think it would be a lot easier to do it with something like a MiR weighted vest than a barbell on your back or with dumbells.
i used db's today and actually liked them.. but i jump better with a barbell.
i don't have a vest otherwise I would probably use it.. I just don't like how I would use my arms using the vest.. i know I would resort to using them.. I would rather use purely hips/ankles.
peace
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Hi Adarqui
Here is an admittedly strange thought that occurred to me as I read here and elsewhere recently of the sudden rise in calf training for ankle stiffness amongst knowledgable people such as yourself. Isn't ankle stiffness and calf strength something that training in, dare I say it, Jumpsoles, is supposed to improve. And if so, does this therefore follow that Jumpsoles may actually have some benefit to a jumping athlete after all (besides increasing the users ability to tolerate ridicule and possibly shin splints)?
I have reviewed Jumpsoles for my site and tried a variety of different things in them to see if they had any value and just about the best use I could come up with was wearing them around the house a lot with the proprioceptive plugs. This did improve my ankle stability and strength a lot and as you are hoping to also replicate, improved my vertical particularly off a run. This was the basis for my article on passive training that amazingly sparked a lengthy discussion on TVS.
I like that you are trying different things to address different areas, god knows I have given all sorts of things a go over the years. It is good stuff and on occasion does produce some surprising results (and them sometimes as you know it also produces some stupid injuries). I hope it works out for you.
I would also like to hear some peoples thoughts about whether or not the folks at Jumpsoles may have actually been onto something but perhaps didn't know how to apply their use correctly.
Cheers
Jack
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Hi Adarqui
Here is an admittedly strange thought that occurred to me as I read here and elsewhere recently of the sudden rise in calf training for ankle stiffness amongst knowledgable people such as yourself. Isn't ankle stiffness and calf strength something that training in, dare I say it, Jumpsoles, is supposed to improve. And if so, does this therefore follow that Jumpsoles may actually have some benefit to a jumping athlete after all (besides increasing the users ability to tolerate ridicule and possibly shin splints)?
I have reviewed Jumpsoles for my site and tried a variety of different things in them to see if they had any value and just about the best use I could come up with was wearing them around the house a lot with the proprioceptive plugs. This did improve my ankle stability and strength a lot and as you are hoping to also replicate, improved my vertical particularly off a run. This was the basis for my article on passive training that amazingly sparked a lengthy discussion on TVS.
I like that you are trying different things to address different areas, god knows I have given all sorts of things a go over the years. It is good stuff and on occasion does produce some surprising results (and them sometimes as you know it also produces some stupid injuries). I hope it works out for you.
I would also like to hear some peoples thoughts about whether or not the folks at Jumpsoles may have actually been onto something but perhaps didn't know how to apply their use correctly.
Cheers
Jack
well, i do think they can be useful..
it's just most people do completely dumb shit in them, like running jumps.. that is just asking for injury.
to be honest, the walking lunges/squat hops/ankle hops in jump soles could probably be very effective.. i mean i see a similar effect just wearing track shoes to do plyos/lunges etc.. keeps you on your toes more and gives you alot more spring.
im posting a video in a bit to show you some ankle-stiffness problems I see with myself doing a single leg rebounding box jump... though it would look better in track shoes.. I will record it next time in track shoes to show the difference between bball shoes / track shoes on the same drill.
how much did it improve your vert? the passive training..
you should take before & after vid on a few drills that really involve the ankles.. so thay you can demonstrate the effectiveness it has on ankle stiffness.
peace man... good job with your site too, really like it.
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Damn that was a quick response.
I agree running jumps, skipping, bounding etc is just flat out stupid whilst wearing Jumpsoles but up and down on the spot type work could be quite beneficial. The passive training I did only sporadically and without any systematic planning. Basically I consciously tried to wear them when I was playing with the kids or just doing things around the house such as the vacuuming etc, as often as I could for about a month.
I don't know exactly how many inches it added but I was certainly getting noticeably higher on my running jumps. You definitely feel stronger as you plant and explode. I liked it because I didn't have to do anything extra during my actual training sessions and it didn't tax me too much at the time.
I look forward to seeing how your approach goes.
Cheers
Jack
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Here is another thought I just had about improving ankle stiffness. Vibration training. Currently I am doing a lot of it due to jumpers knee preventing me from doing just about everything and have been experimenting with split squats, split squats and regular squats on my toes, single leg 1/2 squats, lots of iso's etc. Certainly getting up on the toes on a vibration plate works the calves and ankles in a pretty thorough way. Anyway I thought I would throw it out there as another suggestion you might try in case the barbell ankle hops get a bit much on the joints and you need a break.
Cheers
Jack
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Here is another thought I just had about improving ankle stiffness. Vibration training. Currently I am doing a lot of it due to jumpers knee preventing me from doing just about everything and have been experimenting with split squats, split squats and regular squats on my toes, single leg 1/2 squats, lots of iso's etc. Certainly getting up on the toes on a vibration plate works the calves and ankles in a pretty thorough way. Anyway I thought I would throw it out there as another suggestion you might try in case the barbell ankle hops get a bit much on the joints and you need a break.
Cheers
Jack
where are you doing the vibration training? at a PT place? or do you own your own vibriflex (haha)?
i have been interested in vibration training before.. i've looked at alot of studies and I've found alot of negative results.. I have found some positive studies though.
personally, I do not think it has much of an effect.. i've seen people use it pre-workout though, and say it works.. but i don't know if that's just placebo.. i don't really think these athletes could possibly know if it worked or not, so i'm suspect.
i started a vibration training thread in Peer Review: http://www.pure-dedication.com/forum/index.php?topic=74.0
I posted some negative one's.. if you have any nice studies post them in there.. eventually I'll go find more.
the sprint study in that thread is interesting.. because that relates to our convo on vibration training & stiffness.. vibration training didn't have much of an effect with experienced athletes in that respect.
peace man
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I have a vibration plate in my gym. Not a Powerplate or anything like that. I don't know what brand it is. It is an oscillating plate which is why I went for that one. Most studies are not very supportive. The only reseearch stuff I have found that was really positive was the stuff Bosco did in the late 90's. That said, your observations about pre-workout are similar to what I have found. It is a great way to warm up the muscles and joints prior to the hard stuff in the workout. As I can't do any regular heavy lifting or jumping at the moment I am compromising so I use it with a 60 pound weight vest and a 35kg sand bag for extra resistance. It will be interesting to see how much strength, speed, and jumping, as well as things like stiffness I have lost when I am fully recovered. Who knows, maybe all that theory about preferential activation of FT fibers is true and I end up jumping higher - I doubt it. Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
Cheers
Jack
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I have a vibration plate in my gym. Not a Powerplate or anything like that. I don't know what brand it is. It is an oscillating plate which is why I went for that one. Most studies are not very supportive. The only reseearch stuff I have found that was really positive was the stuff Bosco did in the late 90's. That said, your observations about pre-workout are similar to what I have found. It is a great way to warm up the muscles and joints prior to the hard stuff in the workout. As I can't do any regular heavy lifting or jumping at the moment I am compromising so I use it with a 60 pound weight vest and a 35kg sand bag for extra resistance. It will be interesting to see how much strength, speed, and jumping, as well as things like stiffness I have lost when I am fully recovered. Who knows, maybe all that theory about preferential activation of FT fibers is true and I end up jumping higher - I doubt it. Sorry for getting off topic a bit.
Cheers
Jack
getting off topic is great.. dont apologize.
man you got some cool equipment, do you have pics of your gym etc? i've never seen them on your site.
the preferrential recruitment of FTMU's has mostly been ruled out, but their are still studies that back it.. some EMS studies have said you can though.
from the looks of it, EMS, mental training, and pool work might be pretty effective.. im to ADD for the mental training stuff to understand it as a protocol though.. just dont use EMS in the pool.
what do you attribute your knee tendonitis too ?
peace
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The knee tendonitis is probably due to a variety of things. Age - I am 34. Lack of attention to recovery - With two very young children I have been not getting enough sleep and also not paying enough attention to things such as icing, foam rolling and stretching which I used to do far more strictly. And the real killer - doing dumb stuff like jumping on hard surfaces too much and not warming up enough. I have been having autologous blood injections to treat it (they take blood out of your arm and inject it directly into the tendon). This has been helping although I am still a long way from resuming full activities such as actually playing basketball.
I wish I could post some nice photos of my gym. Currently I am operating out of a temporary facility whilst my house is being built. That will be great as I will have a huge space to train people right downstairs that would put some of the gyms on MTV's cribs to shame. My equipment list isn't that crazy though because I don't train large groups of people. Usually a maximum of 2 at a time. When the new house is finished I have a few plans to change that but for now i consists of the basics (a power rack, barbell, lots of weights, a variety of cardio machines which I mostly only let people do high intensity sprints on. I feel bad about charging people good money to watch them ride a bike for 30 minutes), plus a few special toys (various specialty bars such as SS Bar, Trap bar, a bunch of kettlebells, a bunch of bands, the vibration plate, a GHR, various sandbags, several weight vests, a weight sled, gymnastic rings, a landmine etc).
The mental training side of things you mention is interesting stuff. So hard to quantify or test though. But psyching up definitely works so there is something to it.
Cheers
Jack
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high rep ankle jumps and the like remind me of the old Air Alert days...maybe they were on to something too?
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<quote>the reason im doing everything weighted, is I want alot more reflexive force production when I land in those positions.. and I can progressively overload (albeit small progressions) those positions and keep increasing my stiffness properly.. If i could reflexively gain more force output in any of those positions, my jumping should improve..</quote>
This is just what I've found (and from talking with Kelly): Using weights to increase the force of the ankle stiffness stuff seems to affect the joints moreso than increasing the acceleration of the movement.
Since F=MA, you can increase the force by increasing your mass, or your acceleration. External weights would be increased mass.
Increasing the height of the movement would be acceleration, and my preferential choice.
Obviously some of your exercise choices don't lend themselves to increasing force through that means, but in spots where you can, I would.
<END NERD SPEAK>
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<quote>the reason im doing everything weighted, is I want alot more reflexive force production when I land in those positions.. and I can progressively overload (albeit small progressions) those positions and keep increasing my stiffness properly.. If i could reflexively gain more force output in any of those positions, my jumping should improve..</quote>
This is just what I've found (and from talking with Kelly): Using weights to increase the force of the ankle stiffness stuff seems to affect the joints moreso than increasing the acceleration of the movement.
Since F=MA, you can increase the force by increasing your mass, or your acceleration. External weights would be increased mass.
Increasing the height of the movement would be acceleration, and my preferential choice.
Obviously some of your exercise choices don't lend themselves to increasing force through that means, but in spots where you can, I would.
<END NERD SPEAK>
sup alex "the takeover" maroko..
well, i don't really see how it's affecting the "joints" more than actual stiffness.. i mean i feel it all muscular, and i reach fatigue (muscular) faster when using the weighted variations.
i mean, if i was going very intense on the weight, to the point where i was forcing my rebounds (not actually rebounding) then i could understand that..
i havnt been doing the weighted variations the passed few sessions though.. im going ALL bodyweight.. ill use KE from freefall to overload, not some dumb weights.. ;) so far i like it much better... so scratch what i said about doing weighted variations..
and single leg submax pogos with leg completely locked and glute squeezed is damn effective at hitting the PF's.
peace man
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<quote>the reason im doing everything weighted, is I want alot more reflexive force production when I land in those positions.. and I can progressively overload (albeit small progressions) those positions and keep increasing my stiffness properly.. If i could reflexively gain more force output in any of those positions, my jumping should improve..</quote>
This is just what I've found (and from talking with Kelly): Using weights to increase the force of the ankle stiffness stuff seems to affect the joints moreso than increasing the acceleration of the movement.
Since F=MA, you can increase the force by increasing your mass, or your acceleration. External weights would be increased mass.
Increasing the height of the movement would be acceleration, and my preferential choice.
Obviously some of your exercise choices don't lend themselves to increasing force through that means, but in spots where you can, I would.
<END NERD SPEAK>
sup alex "the takeover" maroko..
well, i don't really see how it's affecting the "joints" more than actual stiffness.. i mean i feel it all muscular, and i reach fatigue (muscular) faster when using the weighted variations.
i mean, if i was going very intense on the weight, to the point where i was forcing my rebounds (not actually rebounding) then i could understand that..
i havnt been doing the weighted variations the passed few sessions though.. im going ALL bodyweight.. ill use KE from freefall to overload, not some dumb weights.. ;) so far i like it much better... so scratch what i said about doing weighted variations..
and single leg submax pogos with leg completely locked and glute squeezed is damn effective at hitting the PF's.
peace man
I meant joints as in they start hurting when you start using weight....not like you start "muscling" stuff.
I like the sound of sticking with all body weight variations too.
All right, I have to get back to "taking over"... 8)
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dude the man the myth the legend ::)
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dude the man the myth the legend ::)
ahahaha
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