Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Harvey on April 06, 2012, 06:05:43 am
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(http://i.imgur.com/AT6HO.png)
He doesn't look like the strongest bloke in the world, so how does he get up? Is it just plain ridiculous explosiveness? I bet it has something to do with his incredible flexibility. What is the adarq theory on Kadour?
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(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/482/template.jpg)
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Good contribution mate, cheers.
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Has he shown you his butt?
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His stint on the best damn sports show left little to the imagination.
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(http://i.imgur.com/Wuh83.jpg)
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O hai gaiz!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Blanka_Vlasic.jpg/400px-Blanka_Vlasic.jpg)
She looks anorexic but she clears 6'10''.
What are her super secretz for verts inchez???
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she doesn't look anorexic, just thin. severely anorexic people are fucking terrifying looking.
off-topic but important clarification, srs.
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^Yes , and i misspelled "hi", "guys", "sectets", "inches" etc. I know the difference , it was part of the same exaggeration, regarding the thin-vs-jumping-high issue.
I reckon that anorexia is a deadly desease though and should not be used in jokes, my bad!
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Hasn't adarqui made an anorexic dunk mix?
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(http://i.imgur.com/AT6HO.png)
He doesn't look like the strongest bloke in the world, so how does he get up? Is it just plain ridiculous explosiveness? I bet it has something to do with his incredible flexibility. What is the adarq theory on Kadour?
WHY OH WHY DO YOU KEEP MAKING NEW TOPICS/THREADS THAT ARE RETARDED HARVEY?
You're looking at his damn calf size bro...Calf size is most genetic and even with lots of resistance training, it won't grow much.
Ask this question after you see his thighs and butt or something... You're like those people in basketball who goes "How do black people jump so high with skinny legs?"
Flexibility, or lack thereof can hinder one's vert if it's too lacking, but Ziani's crazy flexibility and stretching routine doesn't give him inches on his hops. He probably has very powerful glutes, hamstrings, quads, and a perfect genetic makeup for single leg jumping with the perfect tendons, leg length, body structure leverages, etc...
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That...
Flexibility, or lack thereof can hinder one's vert if it's too lacking, but Ziani's crazy flexibility and stretching routine doesn't give him inches on his hops. He probably has very powerful glutes, hamstrings, quads, and a perfect genetic makeup for single leg jumping with the perfect tendons, leg length, body structure leverages, etc...
Was all you needed to say.
Also, is it just me or does he appear to have quite 'prominent' achilles?
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When he came to Romania he was able to do pistol squats incredibly easy. Also he jumps almost the same without warm-up as he does after 1 hour of dunking.
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He probably has incredible hip strength and since he has a low bodyweight, calf strength is not an issue for him => he can use a ton of speed in the plant.
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you idiots use the word strength too much. kadour Ziani is not strong. He is fast. He develops force quickly in milliseconds, not under seconds under a squat rack with his glutes and quads. I wonder what his tendons look like, and his hip bones, but I feel like he jumps high due to the elastic properties of his tendons and bones in his hips.
As a result of his elastic and probably stiff tendons, he may be able to develop a lot of force, but to think they come from his muscles is just plain wrong. The tendons are the structures that allow the muscles to stretch and produce the force. I read some papers on thsi stuff while ago I forget now.
Also whoever said his flexibility may hinder his performance needs a reference. I understand that acutely stretching hinders power output. But improving fleixbility in the long run usually increases musclee strength.
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:uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm:
you idiots use the word strength too much. kadour Ziani is not strong. He is fast. He develops force quickly in milliseconds, not under seconds under a squat rack with his glutes and quads. I wonder what his tendons look like, and his hip bones, but I feel like he jumps high due to the elastic properties of his tendons and bones in his hips.
As a result of his elastic and probably stiff tendons, he may be able to develop a lot of force, but to think they come from his muscles is just plain wrong. The tendons are the structures that allow the muscles to stretch and produce the force. I read some papers on thsi stuff while ago I forget now.
Also whoever said his flexibility may hinder his performance needs a reference. I understand that acutely stretching hinders power output. But improving fleixbility in the long run usually increases musclee strength.
If you're referring to my flexibility post, then you need to learn how to read. I said a LACK of flexibility can hinder your vertical. If you weren't referring to me, then nevermind.
Maybe what you said about his tendons and etc.. are all correct, and they probably are. But what makes you so sure he doesn't have a lot of strength? You worked out with him in the weight room before? You checked out his physique under his shorts before? You sound so sure about what makes him jump high as if you've studied his entire body in person. Of course strength isn't always the reason for a high vertical, but it doesn't mean it CAN't be the reason.
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So this is what I have been missing all along? Supir ilastic bonz?
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you idiots use the word strength too much.
Listen up saggy tits, you and harvey are the only idiots in this thread. No one has made fun of your shitty "sprint" videos, and
people leave your ugly ass alone when you make retarded as fuck exercise videos. Stop calling people idiots and go do some
depth drops from 8 feet or running deadlifts with 135 and round spine.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y6K4qfg9EX4/TrQDFbEEpbI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/t5TW9WqL4oo/s640/26.ready.jpg)
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:uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm:
you idiots use the word strength too much.
Listen up saggy tits, you and harvey are the only idiots in this thread. No one has made fun of your shitty "sprint" videos, and
people leave your ugly ass alone when you make retarded as fuck exercise videos. Stop calling people idiots and go do some
depth drops from 8 feet or running deadlifts with 135 and round spine.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Y6K4qfg9EX4/TrQDFbEEpbI/AAAAAAAAE9Y/t5TW9WqL4oo/s640/26.ready.jpg)
I've yet to see you do anything but talk shit...
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Yo that's an awesome pic. How come I haven't seen that. Lemme know if you have the link I'll put it on my facebook.
JDUB only exist because I exists. My posts give life to him. Otherwise, he is a useless grub you're right D4. I'm so powerful that I'm able to control people like this.
I didn't say he has no strength. I said he has strength in a short time frame, which is basically power. But power would not even be appropriate beacuse the time frame for him to develop force is so small you might as well just call him quick. But tryin to islate his quads or glutes frmo the action and saying his glutes are strong is just moronic. I can't beleive this nonsense. I can deadlift more than he does so I have stronger glutes but I can't do that because I don't stretch 5 hours a day.
Since he uses so much speed in his plant, it's clearly not just his muscles. He would be a great high jumper of coruse. So whatever the mechanism for that, is what applies to kadour. Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.
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:uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm: :uhhhfacepalm:
you idiots use the word strength too much. kadour Ziani is not strong. He is fast. He develops force quickly in milliseconds, not under seconds under a squat rack with his glutes and quads. I wonder what his tendons look like, and his hip bones, but I feel like he jumps high due to the elastic properties of his tendons and bones in his hips.
As a result of his elastic and probably stiff tendons, he may be able to develop a lot of force, but to think they come from his muscles is just plain wrong. The tendons are the structures that allow the muscles to stretch and produce the force. I read some papers on thsi stuff while ago I forget now.
Also whoever said his flexibility may hinder his performance needs a reference. I understand that acutely stretching hinders power output. But improving fleixbility in the long run usually increases musclee strength.
If you're referring to my flexibility post, then you need to learn how to read. I said a LACK of flexibility can hinder your vertical. If you weren't referring to me, then nevermind.
Maybe what you said about his tendons and etc.. are all correct, and they probably are. But what makes you so sure he doesn't have a lot of strength? You worked out with him in the weight room before? You checked out his physique under his shorts before? You sound so sure about what makes him jump high as if you've studied his entire body in person. Of course strength isn't always the reason for a high vertical, but it doesn't mean it CAN't be the reason.
yes I am referring to you. I don't need to read I read really fast. You said that his stretching deos not contribute to his vert. How do you know this? How do you know that his stretching his foot up and past his head does not create microtears in his tendons that make them thicker and more elastic?
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JDUB only exist because I exists. My posts give life to him. Otherwise, he is a useless grub you're right D4. I'm so powerful that I'm able to control people like this.
But not powerful enough to use verbs correctly.
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I've never seen Kadour jump off two feet or do a svj, so it's pretty obvious he is a tendon jumper, couple that with his core, low weight/low bf, and some strength and there you have it.
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Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.
sig quote. love it.
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Threads like this are disturbing as hell. There is one guy that jumps really high and is really flexible and for people like Harvey the connection is immediately formed that more flexibility leads to a higher vertical. While strength increases have been shown over and over again to lead to higher vertical jumps (something that Harvey does not seem to believe), I do not know of similar cases where people just increased their flexibility and then jumped higher.
When Ziani would only eat grass, would you then conclude that his high VJ has something to do with his eating habits?
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If everyone just negged every Avishek and Harvey post we could pretend they don't exist.
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If everyone just negged every Avishek and Harvey post we could pretend they don't exist.
That would be a pretty healthy approach, I think.
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What is unfortunate about most people is how much they think they know. When their beliefs are challenged they changed the argument.
I already completely DESTROYED the idea that ziani is strong. He can't squat shit. prove me wrong. He can't deadlift shit either.
I STRONGLY SUGGESTED that he has strong tendons, but I have no proof. The way he jumps makes it pretty obvoius he jumps like a high jumper and has similar mechanisms for jumping higher, none of which include strength training and squatting to increase vert.
If anyone can prove that stretching does not increase vertical jump once and for all, do it now. Kadour Ziani doesn't have above average flexibility, he has SUPER BEAST FLEXIBILITY. There's a difference.
I'm being really moderate here. I did not state anything as a fact as usual, everyone else just gets mad when I call them idiots. All i suggest is a HYPOTHESIS. Everyone ELSE thinks they know. Only fools think they know anything.
EDIT: i'm not saying high jumpers don't strength train. But a lot of their programs turn them into "tendon jumpers," and I think there are some serious physiological changes that take place. I wish adarq would comment on this shit.
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Threads like this are disturbing as hell. There is one guy that jumps really high and is really flexible and for people like Harvey the connection is immediately formed that more flexibility leads to a higher vertical. While strength increases have been shown over and over again to lead to higher vertical jumps (something that Harvey does not seem to believe), I do not know of similar cases where people just increased their flexibility and then jumped higher.
When Ziani would only eat grass, would you then conclude that his high VJ has something to do with his eating habits?
What in the fucking shit are you talking about. There are COUNTLESS INNUMERABLE examples of athletes that are weak as SHIT in the weight room who jump HIGH AS FUCK.
Strength training has NOT been shown over and over again to increase vertical jump. It does work, but some athletes have other means of jumping higher. As long as they exist, we know that there are other mechanisms besides higher force production as a result of force training such as squatting and deadlifting that increase explosiveness and vertical jump.
Kadour Ziani is not just "one guy." He's one guy who claims to only stretch to increase his hops (except for that stretch expert guy with a 14'' vertical on youtube), but not the only guy who doesn't strength train and can jump incredible high.
No of course no one would suggest eating grass makes him jump higher. Stretching is in no way analogous to eating grass.
Here is just one study showing that STATIC STRETCHING CAN INCREASE MUSCLE STRENGTH, AS MUCH AS RESISTANCE TRAINING
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21969080
J Strength Cond Res. 2011 Dec;25(12):3391-8.
Resistance training vs. static stretching: effects on flexibility and strength.
Morton SK, Whitehead JR, Brinkert RH, Caine DJ.
Source
Department of Physical Education, Exercise Science, and Wellness (PXW), University of North Dakota, Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA.
Abstract
Morton, SK, Whitehead, JR, Brinkert, RH, and Caine, DJ. Resistance training vs. static stretching: Effects on flexibility and strength. J Strength Cond Res 25(12): 3391-3398, 2011-The purpose of this study was to determine how full-range resistance training (RT) affected flexibility and strength compared to static stretching (SS) of the same muscle-joint complexes in untrained adults. Volunteers (n = 25) were randomized to an RT or SS training group. A group of inactive volunteers (n = 12) served as a convenience control group (CON). After pretesting hamstring extension, hip flexion and extension, shoulder extension flexibility, and peak torque of quadriceps and hamstring muscles, subjects completed 5-week SS or RT treatments in which the aim was to stretch or to strength train the same muscle-joint complexes over similar movements and ranges. Posttests of flexibility and strength were then conducted. There was no difference in hamstring flexibility, hip flexion, and hip extension improvement between RT and SS, but both were superior to CON values. There were no differences between groups on shoulder extension flexibility. The RT group was superior to the CON in knee extension peak torque, but there were no differences between groups on knee flexion peak torque. The results of this preliminary study suggest that carefully constructed full-range RT regimens can improve flexibility as well as the typical SS regimens employed in conditioning programs. Because of the potential practical significance of these results to strength and conditioning programs, further studies using true experimental designs, larger sample sizes, and longer training durations should be conducted with the aim of confirming or disproving these results.
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http://www.nasm.org/1/HFPN/Research_Library/Research_Summaries/Flexibility/Chronic_Static_Stretching_Improves_Exercise_Performance/
(http://www.nasmpro.com/uploadedImages/digital_assets/Publications/Author_Bio/Table1.JPG)
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Strength training has NOT been shown over and over again to increase vertical jump.
It's when you write things like this at the BEGINNING of your post that I decide to just ignore whatever you have to say man.
Many people on this board, including me, are a living testament to how strength training increases vertical jump. When I was 155lbs in high school I couldn't touch rim. Some years later and I threw down a two handed dunk at 210lbs bodyweight my friend.
Don't tell me it was the tendons.
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Strength training has NOT been shown over and over again to increase vertical jump.
It's when you write things like this at the BEGINNING of your post that I decide to just ignore whatever you have to say man.
Many people on this board, including me, are a living testament to how strength training increases vertical jump. When I was 155lbs in high school I couldn't touch rim. Some years later and I threw down a two handed dunk at 210lbs bodyweight my friend.
Don't tell me it was the tendons.
He said that it isn't the ONLY way in which people get up. Stop assuming that because it works for you everyone else has to train that way to be successful. In Ziani's case, his force exertion isn't based upon strength.
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way too much argument and chatter over this
download and read joel smith's mechanics and development of single leg jumping and it will explain it all
http://www.just-fly-sports.com/
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As I continue to say in every thread it seems
Weight Room Numbers =/= Strength
So many variables to being a good lifter besides strength. Squatting (Powerlifting) is a fucking sport, yet we're using it as the only measurement of strength? Ridiculous
And before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying, the best way to get stronger is to squat. If you get relatively stronger you're going to jump higher. Anyone who has ever gotten stronger (not Avishek or Harvey, who are weak as shit) will tell you that. Both are weak, both can't jump for shit.
It's ironic that Avishek says that stretching increases strength so that "proves his point" when before he said strength doesn't mean anything because Ziani isn't strong.
He said that it isn't the ONLY way in which people get up. Stop assuming that because it works for you everyone else has to train that way to be successful. In Ziani's case, his force exertion isn't based upon strength.
Where did he say ONLY? He said strength training doesn't increase vertical jump.
So funny the two weakest people who have had 0 results and have failed training are telling people who have gotten results what works.
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Stop assuming that because it works for you everyone else has to train that way to be successful.
Oh? I assumed that?
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Avishek regarding strength training:
It does work, but some athletes have other means of jumping higher. As long as they exist, we know that there are other mechanisms besides higher force production as a result of force training such as squatting and deadlifting that increase explosiveness and vertical jump.
Several problems with this. Just because there are characteristics that correlate with VJ besides force production DOES NOT TELL US that trying to improve those characteristics is an effective or efficient approach to train for VJ. I and everyone else here is aware that different factors than strength may be causally linked to the height of a VJ. But no matter how strong such a connection is, it might not have any implications for practical training purposes if there is no good way of improving those characteristics. For example, lets say leg length is strongly causally linked to VJ height. Would you then say that training for leg length is the best way to train for a higher vertical? I would not.
Take away message is that there are numerous factors that determine VJ height. Some of them are effectively trainable, some are trainable and some are not trainable. Strength and power in the weight room are two effectively trainable parameters that have been shown over and over again to lead to higher verticals. There might be other training methodologies that work well. However, I have rarely seen a good documentation of a meaningful VJ increase through flexibility training. The studies that Avishek posted are again meaningless for this discussion. It is essentially said that untrained people (not the population we are concerned about, right?) gain as much strength through flexibility training as through strength training. Show me that the strength group trained effectively (read: following a linear progression in the squat for 5 weeks, which should increase their training weights by ~75 lbs). When they were trained on a leg pressing machine (or similar device) or with no linear progression the study is worthless outside of demonstrating the lack of competence of the researchers.
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Someone said it right, and brought up new issues.
So if Kadour gets "stronger" due to flexibility, it does not mean he gets stronger inthe same way as through weight training. THe mechanisms are different, and may have different results as well. So it's not a paradox when I say strength in the weight room doesn't always matter for vertical jump, but flexibility may help Kadour Ziani get hops (perhaps maybe due to strength), because they are totally different.
So in conclusion, for the third time, kadour ziani's muscles aren't what contributes majorly to his vertical jump as it would for someone who strength-trained. His limb leverages have nothing to do with it (has anyone defined what limb leverages are optimal for high jumping...?). He has trained hard, through means which none of you fucking dumb pieces of shit udnerstand, and has seen results. He does not jump high off of two feet. He only jumps high off of 1 foot, only with a fast run-up, like a high jumper.
Also for everyone else who likes to prove themselves right and ride on false egos, strength training has been shown over and over again ti increase vertical jump. When I said the opposite, what I am bringing up is that strength training does not have to automatically increase vertical jump, of course it can help with two footed jumping but one footed jumping is another issue entirely. Furthermore, when we're talking about kadour ziani, vertical jump means jumping like a high jumper. Deep squatting and deadlifting are not popular techniques among high jumpers. They are good for those who train vertical jump as a two footed vertical jump. Most high jumpers also have shitty SVJs.
And steven, just like everyone else on the forum who critically thinks with their amygdala and sensitive emotions, you are proving yourself to no where land. Here are problems with everything you wrote.
1. I agree that fleixbility training as not been shown to be an effective procedure for increaseing vertical jump. THere are about 2 studies in the literature that I'm aware of on this topic. What I said is that there may be mechanisms that you are not aware of that have helped Kadour jump really high with flexibility training.
2. No it does not matter that those studies were done on untrained individuals. the leg pres issue also does not matter. What matters is that a mechanism exists, and perhaps it helps Kadour jump higher. that's my whole point...I didn't say it DEFINITELY DOES HELP kadour ziani jump higher, but I do not think it's wise to dismiss his flexibility training (4 hours a day when he used to do it if he still does), as having no effect on his hops.
3. I did not ever recommend any vertical jump increasing method in any of my posts, so I don't know why you wrote:
"Just because there are characteristics that correlate with VJ besides force production DOES NOT TELL US that trying to improve those characteristics is an effective or efficient approach to train for VJ. "
That is irrelevant. Furthermore, it's wrong. I didn't say it has nothing to do with force production. Of course it has to do with force production, but more importantly, we need to know the means of force production. People who can jump high without weight training, but just plyos (possibly stretching for Kadour), are not just achieving high rates of force production with their muscles. They have tendons that assist them, period.
I did not want to talk about standing verticals, or two footed trianing, but single leg which we all know is quite different.
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Yeah the one-leg jump is a bit different... it does require strength but it's more of an isometric nature (which is still generated by muscle strength). Still, that's all a muscle "needs to take care of" in a reactive (not voluntary propelled concentrically) one-leg VJ - immediately "lock in isometrically" and then the tendons do the rest (more exactly, the accumulated speed in the run-up does the rest as far as where the energy to go upwards is coming from - you still need the energy to go up there, but you use the energy that already exists in the form of run-up speed and you only need to convert it to vertical torque).
To be honest with you, I don't completely understand the phenomenon. But like Joel Smith said, explosive-isometric is a pretty good term for what happens to the muscles in the one-leg jump - they need to turn on extremely fast and they need to be strong enough to maintain the jumping leg's straight position for the best lever you can get (meaning - to prevent collapse at the ankle, knee or hip).
The thing is - I'm not sure what strength training really does to help this cause. I mean, in a high speed plant the forces on the loaded leg are 8-10x bodyweight. You can't simulate that stuff in the weight room. It's not like you're going to squat or lunge 10x. They also happen in a very short time span (as the amortization phase is very, very short) - so as far as specificity goes... the weight room is far and away from what you need.
Still, a bigger, stronger muscle helps since it should be able to better support the forces in the plant. But if you become accustomed to the eccentric-concentric stuff you usually do in the weight room, and at a slow pace, you can only wonder how that is going to really help specifically in a one-leg jump at a high speed.
I think it's best to work on muscle hypertrophy in the gym for a short while and then pretty much do jumps/sprints that actually use a explosive-isometric regime for your muscles. Bigger muscles + proper "regime" should equal success.
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Yeah the one-leg jump is a bit different... it does require strength but it's more of an isometric nature (which is still generated by muscle strength). Still, that's all a muscle "needs to take care of" in a reactive (not voluntary propelled concentrically) one-leg VJ - immediately "lock in isometrically" and then the tendons do the rest (more exactly, the accumulated speed in the run-up does the rest as far as where the energy to go upwards is coming from - you still need the energy to go up there, but you use the energy that already exists in the form of run-up speed and you only need to convert it to vertical torque).
To be honest with you, I don't completely understand the phenomenon. But like Joel Smith said, explosive-isometric is a pretty good term for what happens to the muscles in the one-leg jump - they need to turn on extremely fast and they need to be strong enough to maintain the jumping leg's straight position for the best lever you can get (meaning - to prevent collapse at the ankle, knee or hip).
The thing is - I'm not sure what strength training really does to help this cause. I mean, in a high speed plant the forces on the loaded leg are 8-10x bodyweight. You can't simulate that stuff in the weight room. It's not like you're going to squat or lunge 10x. They also happen in a very short time span (as the amortization phase is very, very short) - so as far as specificity goes... the weight room is far and away from what you need.
Still, a bigger, stronger muscle helps since it should be able to better support the forces in the plant. But if you become accustomed to the eccentric-concentric stuff you usually do in the weight room, and at a slow pace, you can only wonder how that is going to really help specifically in a one-leg jump at a high speed.
I think it's best to work on muscle hypertrophy in the gym for a short while and then pretty much do jumps/sprints that actually use a explosive-isometric regime for your muscles. Bigger muscles + proper "regime" should equal success.
I cant believe it. I need not say more. You said it very well.
I wonder what the exact mechanism is. Have you loked that up? I've seen studies back in the day showing collagen hypertrophy from plyos, but I don't want to go out on a limb and say things that incite a lot of confusion such as, Kadour Ziani relies on 0 muscle strength (actually I love to say things like that), and is purely a tendon jumper. What does that mean?
In triple jumping, the second phase of the maneuver, the "skip," creates forces 17+x bodyweight, up to 22x, in one study on a group of triple jumpers (in finland I think). So this type of training is doing something completely different from what we typically think of as "strength," but of course in the end the muscle is contracting.. but to say that Kadour Ziani has strong glutes is completely ignoring all the other structures that enable his muscles to contract so quickly and forcefully in a short time frame. Again, I don't know the exact physiology of this.
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To be honest, I have no idea. I have no idea how the muscles can stabilize 10x your bodyweight even for a very short time and until I understand that... I can't really comment. I can speculate but... I don't really have anything to base my speculation off.
The thing is that when your body (golgi receptors etc) feels that high of a shock it's going to recruit a very high % of your muscle fibers to support that, and they stay activated (recruited) enough to give you a concentric push as well. So you're going to use a higher % of your muscles than if you weren't to take in that shock and you were just putting out voluntary force (because, although the one-leg jump is isometric as far as planting goes, it's still concentric when you push off - you still have an angle at the hips that you push off from - so the glutes do a ton of concentric, voluntary push).
At least this is how I understand the one-leg jump.