Author Topic: Kettlebell swinging jumps  (Read 3090 times)

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TKXII

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Kettlebell swinging jumps
« on: August 05, 2013, 04:13:16 pm »
0
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGJJwDsmaG0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGJJwDsmaG0</a>

 :o
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 04:26:11 pm »
0
Um... two observations

Looking at the replay I can see two things:

1) Hip hyperextension DOES NOT occur
2) You're actually initiating a "pull the torso up" movement to "jump" forward

So if you're doing these two things ^^^ instead of actually working on emphasizing the hip extension/hyperextension you're not only not training the hip extension but you're also programming yourself to raise the torso when jumping and not actually using the hips.

If I were you I'd stop doing these :P

If you compare what you're doing here with a med ball overhead toss or a traditional KB swing... the amount of hip extension/hyperextension is not even comparable.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 05:11:48 pm by Raptor »

LBSS

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 05:05:28 pm »
+1
yeah you're not fully extending at hip, knees or ankles there.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: run 14+ km
monday: lift
tuesday: run 10-12 km
wednesday: run 10-12 km
thursday: run 10-12 km
friday: rest
saturday: run tempo/VO2 max/speed x 6-8 km

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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AlexV

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 05:44:58 pm »
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Decent GPP exercise.  I would vertical jump rather than broad jump so that you can get full extension.  Of course there is always the hardstyle swing which really makes for snappy hips.  People rarely get full hip extension while broad jumping.  Like box jumps the landing  tends to make one tuck their knees/hips early.  Or like in cleans where you worry too much about the drop under the bar to finish your pull
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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 06:30:30 pm »
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Or like in cleans where you worry too much about the drop under the bar to finish your pull

I've always had this problem. Obviously it gets even worse considering I can't do a low catch and I can't keep the elbows forward (only down, perpendicular to the ground and catch it on my chest).

seifullaah73

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 09:04:03 pm »
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I was expecting broad jump style, hip extension type of jump, with kettle bell up infront.
It looks less dangerous than i expected it to be.

try a kettle bell swing broad jump and video that with hip extension, that would be nice i guess.
but it will kinda be cheating as you using the kettle bell to help you jump far.
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

seifullaah73

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 09:04:44 pm »
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Or like in cleans where you worry too much about the drop under the bar to finish your pull

I've always had this problem. Obviously it gets even worse considering I can't do a low catch and I can't keep the elbows forward (only down, perpendicular to the ground and catch it on my chest).

So raptor, are you ready to try these with live weights, with minds of their own.
 :P
Warm up drills
   - a walk, b skip quick powerful switch (heel to hams focus), a runs, dribbles small to big to run, straight leg to runs (force, reflex, go up/forward). force to hit the ground before it hits the ground knee/hip is at 90 degrees.
   - acceleration: low heel recovery, shin angle low, drive legs back before hitting the ground and drive thighs/knee forward not up
-------------------------------------------------------------
Measuring reminder:
5 toe to heel steps = 148cm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

�Strength comes from the legs, Power comes from the torso and Speed comes from the arm.� � Al Vermeil
Arm also aids the legs in driving it down with power - seifullaah73

My Progress Log
A Journey to Running fast and Jumping High
http://www.adarq.org/progress-journals-experimental-routines/my-journey-to-hypertrophy/

TKXII

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 11:27:23 pm »
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Responding to everything:

1. Is this better than traditional power exercises?


No. But I believe it can be very effective if the right loading is used. It can at least be a supplement, for now. A 24kg kettlebell is still very light. I have used 100lb DBs before and have found that it hits my legs a lot harder, and there is more extension because the DB does not swing and add momentum.

2. Is this a maximal exercise?


No. If it was I would be jumping further and would have difficulty initiating jumps in succession. However it is quite challenging.

3. Why is there no hip hyperextension or full triple extension?


Partly because this is not a maximal exercise, and partly due to the nature of the equipment used there is no hip hyperextension or full triple extension. If this was a maximal exercise, there would be hip hyperextension and full triple extension just like in a broad jump or a standing vertical jump. Now there are other common power building exercises that can improve leaping power that also do not involve full extension of the hips, knees or ankles.

Olympic cleans, a similar exercise, also do not involve full triple extension or hip hyperextension (the last one is debatable however). Overhead throws involve hip hyperextension but do not involve knee extension in the way it occurs in a vertical jump. Both of these exercises are great for building power, like the kettlebell swinging jump but do not mimic a vertical jump more than this exercise does. Full triple extension or hip hyperextension are not required for this exercise because the power is coming from the bottom of the range of motion, mostly, but not at the top as in a jump squat.

I believe this exercise is much more specific and useful than cleans or overhead throw, but not better than a jump squat. (that's complicated though so let's not discuss that, yes the clean is great for building front squat strength too, an overhead throw hits the hips well... arguing about the specificity of the exercise is probably meaningless, as long as you are jumping and getting stronger in a fashion similar to jumping and are consistent the marginal differences in different power building exercises are not too significant imo, so i'm not saying it's necessarily better but I would do it certainly over cleans or overhead throws anyday).

Due to the nature of the kettlebell, it swings forward upon jumping which allows the athlete to jump further more easily. Thus this exercise certainly is not training the toe-off portion of a jump in the same manner as a jump squat. However, the added momentum of the kettlebell allows the athlete to lift more weight just as in reverse band set ups for any lift, such as the squat. Thus that factor is somewhat irrelevant. Also since the loads upon landing are high, I am not swinging the weight forward with my arms, I am using the power in my legs to lift my body up and forward slightly without allowing the kettlebell to swing forward in a manner that is dangerous and prevents a safe landing and initiation into another jump.


4. How can this exercise benefit athletes more so than other exercises?


Amortization and rate of force absorption in the bottom position of a jump, and rate of force development and power development.

The hardest part about this exercise is not the jump, the hardest part is absorbing force properly in the "hole," at the bottom of the range of motion, the half squat position. Unlike a regular jump, the arms do not swing down as vigorously since there is a kettlebell in the hands, nor do they swing forward aggressively; the momentum of the kettlebell helps drive the body forward, but it is really the hips that are doing most of the moving of the weight. Since the arms cannot swing behind the body like a regular vertical jump, the legs aren't absorbing a s much force as possible, however with the right size kettlebell, it will be a challenge that can provide an overload that can improve vertical jump just as well as other exercises. The jumping portion of the exercise is not easy either; the athlete should expect to feel fatigue in all parts of the quads, as well as the glutes, in a manner that I would guess is similar to the overhead med ball throw.

With a dumbell the exercise I would argue is more difficult on the concentric phase, but easier on the eccentric force absorption phase. Balancing is also more difficult with the kettlebell upon landing.

5. Key tips about performing this exercise correctly:


Raptor mentioned something about me initiating a "pull the torso up" movement. I do not quite follow but this is how I perform the exercise so that it hits my legs and hips in a manner that is very specific to vertical jumping, and is MUCH better than just jumping vertically as someone else suggested (which will not provide the same training effect at all, or train the hips as well, but it would be decent like jump squats I suppose, again the swinging nature of the KB makes it GREAT for improving rate of force absorption and overall force absorption).

Progression of movements from start to finish:
1. start with kettlebell near hips, with arms touching the body, in a wide enough stance so that you can comfortably swing the arms behind you.
2. Bring hips back while simultaneously squatting down slightly and swinging KB behind body, but allow the natural backwards motion of the hips (hip flexion and the knee flexion) to assist the swinging of the kettlebell. 
3. (this step is the key here) As you are transitioning from force absorption to production, with the kettlebell getting ready to swing forward and still being behind the body, jump using the hips first by swinging them forwards (as if you were going to do a hip hyperextension, JUST LIKE in a clean... so no there is no hip hyperextension but if the weight hadn't gone upwards or forwards, there WOULD HAVE been hip hyperextension so that is certainly irrelevant), the arms are not important at all as in an overhead throw or a vertical jump here (one reason why it's not maximal either). As the weight passes forward you should feel your hips acting first then the knees/quads, and the jumping should have happened.
4. Land then start over at 1.

Make more sense? It's really simple. You swing a weight behind you and jump forward with it. Since the KB swings, it helps the legs absorb more force and absorb it faster, while jumping with the weight. I do certainly focus on my hips almost as if they were a hinge joint, swinging them back and forwads throughout the movement. The forward swing probably has nice potentiation too because it makes you feel like you are jumping far when it's pulling you forward, almost like reverse band squats.

Much more than just a GPP exercise. If it was just GPP this exercise would train the anaerobic glycolytic system more than just the anaerobic system, like higher rep stuff. But it's not easy to do this for high reps even though it is submaximal. I can't do more than 6 reps without losing power with 24kg. I only did a few per set here as you can see. I think it can be GPP, but also more than that with the right loads.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

LBSS

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 12:20:39 am »
+1
your answer on (4) describes ways you think the exercise is beneficial but not ways it's better than other exercises that aim to improve power and RFD. i feel like this is just a less batshit-insane version of your various attempts to reinvent the wheel for no apparent reason other than your own curiosity and restlessness. not that those are bad reasons, and this doesn't seem actually likely to harm you, so power to you. to me it just looks like a goofy waste of time that could be spent doing something more useful. but your motivation clearly goes beyond what's strictly "useful" into what's interesting or different.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

sunday: run 14+ km
monday: lift
tuesday: run 10-12 km
wednesday: run 10-12 km
thursday: run 10-12 km
friday: rest
saturday: run tempo/VO2 max/speed x 6-8 km

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

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Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2013, 04:02:35 am »
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No Avishek... you're just not going to get any "real benefits" and you could even program yourself with a FAULTY mechanic doing these.

Your jumps do not occur due to reaching a point of extension that determines a jump to occur, but rather you forcing the jump pulling with your "back" and using the weight of the KB to pull you forward. Which is something you don't want to do and it's counterproductive to athletic endeavors.

So you're not:

1) Using maximal power
2) Using maximal extension
3) Using maximal speed
4) Using correct mechanics


Then why the hell would this still be beneficial and not a waste of time and body resources? You could do regular KB swings and overhead tosses with a medball or basic broad jumps and get a much better workout.

You'd get maximal power doing the "grounded" KB swings AND maximal hip extension while using correct mechanics and doing overhead tosses or broad jumps you'd use maximal speed as well + hip extension + correct mechanics + maximal power.

So there ya have it.

This exercise is like me saying "if you want to drive a car better you should drive it at 10 miles per hour with 2 pairs of sunglasses on - that will improve your ability to drive the car faster without these sunglasses on".

Well how about driving the car faster without the sunglasses on in the first place?

TKXII

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2013, 06:42:00 am »
-2
@LBSS:

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or do anything beyond what is useful. I simply started doing these one day, and actually liked them quite a bit and think they will work very well. Thus I think they ARE USEFUL FOR ME. Much more than cleans, much more than a regular KB swing, and definitely better than med ball throws.

I go by feel these days. I favor these over cleans because I dislike the way the barbell is in front of my body and with my body structure it's not the best for mimicking vertical but for someone with shorter arms more leg innervation is observed. With me cleans involve a lot of lumbar and pchain. With a regular KB swing and in the kb swinging jump, so much more leg muscle fibers are innervated. That's really why I do it, it just hits my legs harder. Simple, even more than a jump squat, but I like jump squats because I can use more weight.

I feel these are better for my RVJ which involves similar movements in a multiplane fashion near amortization that no exercise other than my RVJ deadlift can provide. Serious. But that does not matter as I already admitted.. consistency with something is key.

@Raptor:

That's actually a decent argument, but since you have not tried the exercises all your judgements are premature. It LOOKS like it's quite submaximal but that's wrong. It's harder than regular swings. I am not just using the kettlbell's swinging momentum to jump. I am using my legs first of all to swing the kettlebell so that comes first. Then I use my legs to swing the kettlebell forward it's not coming from the arms or my back..

No it does not involve maximal power. But compared to a powerclean, i believe this will improve leaping ability way way faster.
I do not think at all this will give me faulty mechanics because I actually feel like I'm jumping!

A couple years ago I released an alternative powerclean exercise that when I went my feel, hit my legs a lot harder. Some of you guys got mad again and said I had shitty form and was reverse curling it. Turns out Joel Smith pretty much came up with the same exercises for similar reasons... it's more specific, and more extension was involved. The point is you cannot judge by looks all the time; if you're going to think the kettlebell is swinging me forward entirely, that's completely wrong. In that video I basically did a kettlebell swing but with a barbell like joel smith did in one of his videos. THe exercise is OK but this is way better.

You'd need emg electrodes, and a tendo to solve this problem and that would easily change everyone's minds (but if we get that equipment and it doesn't... fine but it likely will). But without that, just try it and go by feel. Just like the 1-2 jump squat someone posted earlier, I've been going by feel and came up with that myself as a better jump squat than traditional jump squats. A lot of this stuff, sport "science" is muddled with excess thinking about movements that are natural and quite obvious. I jump with the kettlbell forward and jump. To get more power I swing it. It's simple. But once I'm dunking the results will speak for themselves a little more - but not really because there are people out there who have done really bad exercises that have helped them dunk as well. But still without trying it you're just wrong. I want you two to try this with a decent sized kettlebell then reply back.

Oh and also this is much different of a movement than a regular KB swing. That for me with a 24kg is much easier because I lose acceleration at the top by stopping it slightly. Instead of swinging it, I would have to throw the kettlebell upwards or behind me for a similar effect as these jumps. I can do high reps of regular swing with the same ROM as seen in my video (into about a half squat position but with more hip flexion). Cannot do as many reps as easily with this because more power is involved and fatigue sets in earlier. So no, I WILL NOT get better results with regular swings, overhead throws, and bounds.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 06:47:23 am by Avishek »
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2013, 09:30:52 am »
-1
Quote
Oh and also this is much different of a movement than a regular KB swing. That for me with a 24kg is much easier because I lose acceleration at the top by stopping it slightly. Instead of swinging it, I would have to throw the kettlebell upwards or behind me for a similar effect as these jumps.

Yeah that would be the best exercise possible in terms of KB swings. Throw the KB AFTER THE HIP HYPEREXTENSION is reached.

The only possible positive effect I see in your exercise is the landing with a ton of forward momentum and being able to stabilize that landing without having the knee collapsing. So it's actually in the eccentric phase if there's any benefit. But as far as developing force, even with the swing being initiated by the legs... no, it's not superior by any means to a regular swing.

TKXII

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2013, 10:30:01 am »
-2
Lol i did not suggest ot as an actual exercise..

Yes it is and i will keep doing it because it feels much more challenging and more specific than an overhead med ball throw or a powerclean.

I've acknowledged some of the points you've made but your contentions which are no more than preconceived notions are just wrong - there is not that muh forward momentum; the stabilization there is pretty easy. There is not much forward momentum because im jumping up. It's much harder to stabilize repeat broad jumps than this.

As far as a comparison to regular swings i would expect some legtimate points rather than a blanket statement to take you seriously. If I dont get that I wont reply because i've explained how this works and you've provided a very incomplete analyais.

Thanks anyway for acknowledging anything i said and actually trying  it and being unbiased!
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

TKXII

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 03:23:56 pm »
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Lol I can't believe I'm getting negs for providing an explanation by people who haven't tried it yet hahaha.

I found one more key point about this exercise that makes it valuable for power development.

Upon landing, to reduce the forward momentum (which there is very little of unless you land incorrectly), the kettlebell counterbalances the hips. The hips are back and not moving forward and the kettltbell is in front. The KB is also at nearly head level (but since the knees/hips are flexed it's really not that high).

Upon landing the KB drops from neck head level down to below the legs rapidly as the legs fold into a countermovement jump and I found it today very difficult to do more than 3 reps at a time (kind of like in the video but..). In my video I wasn't trying AS hard to produce power as I did today, but it looks exactly the same.

Anyone who thinks this is easier than a kb swing because i'm using the swing to jump is just plain wrong. There is a LOT of quad/glute action.

Also what type of logic is that seriously? What about reverse band squats? It's the SAME THING. Just because the bands are helping you lift the weight doesn't mean you are not doing anything. It means you must use a more appropriate load. The enhanced acceleration on the concentric provides for good potentiation. I see the same thing happening here.
"Performance during stretch-shortening cycle exercise is influenced by the visco-elastic properties of the muscle-tendon units. During stretching of an activated muscle, mechanical energy is absorbed in the tendon structures (tendon and aponeurosis) and this energy can subsequently be re-utilized if shortening of the muscle immediately follows the stretching. According to Biscotti (2000), 72% of the elastic energy restitution action comes from tendons, 28% - from contractile elements of muscles.

http://www.verkhoshansky.com/Portals/0/Presentations/Shock%20Method%20Plyometrics.pdf

Raptor

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Re: Kettlebell swinging jumps
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 04:27:01 pm »
0
For me, like I said - I think eccentrically, after the landing, there might be benefits. But in terms of actual power DEVELOPMENT you can do much safer and much more effective exercises (you can also do depth jumps for the eccentric part).