Author Topic: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0  (Read 6772 times)

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T0ddday

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2016, 06:04:58 pm »
+1
Here's a question for Dreyth.  I don't know your numbers exactly so excuse me if I underestimate but let's assume your 200lb and squat 400.  Would you trade 50lbs for 100lbs.  So you now weigh 250 and squat 500...   I'm gonna bet you won't.  That's probably the  best answer to your question...

I don't want to weigh 250.

If you give me the choice between 200/400 and 175/350, I'm picking the former. Will either one make me jump higher? Not sure. That's what me and raptor are talking about. Not sure what you're so confused about to be honest; me and raptor seem to understand each other just fine

My confusion is that your taking a weightlifting exercise and trying to decide how it will make you jump higher when it doesn't directly measure any jump specific movement... See my remarks about bench press.  Jumping high is based on speed off the ground... That's it.  Squats involve slowing down before you reach this point.  In early November I weighed 225 and squatted 500.  Today I weight about 210 and can squat around 440.  My jump went from high 30s to mid 40s.  Squats simply don't have correlation for most athletes for the question to be meaningful.  It's my opinion and experince of most athletes I work with.  There are exceptions I'm sure. 

Dreyth

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2016, 10:00:45 pm »
+2
My confusion is that your taking a weightlifting exercise and trying to decide how it will make you jump higher when it doesn't directly measure any jump specific movement... See my remarks about bench press.  Jumping high is based on speed off the ground... That's it.  Squats involve slowing down before you reach this point.  In early November I weighed 225 and squatted 500.  Today I weight about 210 and can squat around 440.  My jump went from high 30s to mid 40s.  Squats simply don't have correlation for most athletes for the question to be meaningful.  It's my opinion and experince of most athletes I work with.  There are exceptions I'm sure.

That reminds me to accelerate through the top of the squat, even if the bar leaves my back for an inch. I've been forgetting to do that. There isn't much of a reason to slow down at the top! Same thing with the bench press.

Personally squats have had an excellent correlation to my DLRVJ. Squatting ~2.-2.1x my bodyweight, I've had a ~37 DLRVJ at bodyweights of 175lbs, 190lbs, and over 200lbs... I have videos on youtube right now of this, as well as journal entries on this site. People on this site have seen my skinny high school 175lb self tomahawking with two hands, and also my fatty self at 210lbs squatting parallel 405x4 nearly hitting my head on the backboard. More recently, I have another 2-hand tomahawk vid at a weight of 192lbs.

My RVJ has always had a very strong correlation to my squat:bw ratio provided my movement efficiency didn't go to shit. I get that back quickly though (also noted in my journals). It's why I have such a hard on for getting to a 2.25x bw squat right now. It seems due to the way I'm built/structured, increasing my relative strength while maintaining sufficient movement efficiency (read: bball a couple times a week, pepper in some dunks) is the fastest way to increase my RVJ.

I think I went off topic here. Anyway, I want to comment on this:

Quote
Jumping high is based on speed off the ground... That's it.

100% correct. Your velocity as soon as your toes come off the ground is what dictates your vert. What I'm interested in knowing is from a purely physics standpoint now, is if 400units of force for 200units of bodyweight accelerates you at the same rate as 300units of force for 150units of bodyweight. I believe the answer is yes. (edit: fwiw this calculator here says so as well http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/verticaljumpcalculator.html)

Next question to ask is what a ROFD curve would look like for both people. Perhaps your CNS may have a better ROFD curve in the higher bodyweight scenario because it's more accustomed to lifting heavier absolute weights. I know that there are other factors in play, though. Like ones that Raptor mentioned in his post.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 10:08:15 pm by Dreyth »
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Raptor

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2016, 03:00:08 am »
0
We can go even further into our over-analyzing craziness:

Say we take a 300 lbs guy that squats 600 lbs and he also is jumping.

Say somehow we're making him to be 200 lbs and squatting 400 lbs over night. Let's also assume he loses the same percentage of muscle from all places, so his mechanics/bodyweight distribution are not modified.

How would his structural factors play in at that moment? Now we're ignoring completely the muscular and power aspects, and we're thinking about his tendons etc, his reactivity? How much better would he move and jump and respond to ground contacts, having tendons that are accustomed to a very heavy bodyweight and being conditioned in that way?

I bet he would become extremely reactive and his ground contact times would be lower, despite having the same power to bodyweight ratio.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 03:01:39 am by Raptor »

Dreyth

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2016, 10:17:29 am »
0
I bet he would become extremely reactive and his ground contact times would be lower, despite having the same power to bodyweight ratio.

Intuitively, I believe that as well. I just don't know why I do. I catn't put a reason behind it yet.
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Raptor

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2016, 12:20:29 pm »
0
Well, I said that in the above paragraph of your quote - probably less absolute force is occuring through the body which makes the CNS accept it much easier, without the fear of things breaking up, and allowing a faster coupling phase etc, and the tendons pretty much maintain their material qualities regardless of weight, so the structural factors that have nothing to do with muscular strength, like Avishek used to say "muscles don't have anything to do with this bullshit" - these structural factors start playing a more important role at a lower bodyweight. Otherwise the CNS is going to make you use less speed in the plant to protect them, speed that has to be compensated for with voluntary power.

Since both athletes have the same voluntary power, then the heavier athlete will jump lower, due to the loss of speed in the plant/loss of accumulated momentum which would otherwise add to the voluntary power that is identical.

maxent

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Re: Kingfush: SVJ 2-hand dunks 2.0
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2016, 12:30:05 pm »
0
You can test these things out with a weighted vest. The first time i used one with +10kg and did some dunks then took it off, i was flying around and jumping like i was on another planet with a different gravitational constant. But this effect wore out over time, it stopped having a potentiating effect eventually.. not sure why future dunk sessions were more earth like. Like my body figured out what was going on and kept the CNS from getting fooled..
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.