Author Topic: Lack of VJ progression (Read 5488 times)

longvol · « **on:** May 30, 2011, 02:53:50 pm »

I've been a long time lurker of this site and am interested in some insights/thoughts from the folks here--

I started training like many here in my early/mid teens when I got a bit more serious about things. At the time I was 5'7" 155lbs. Played football, ran track, played bball/soccer for fun and all that. When I started, I was about 2-3" away from touching rim and it didn't matter much whether I had a running start or not.

I'll provide my basic stats from when I was a 100% beginner to now (approximately 7 years later):

Then:
5'7"
155-160lbs
Squat 275 a good bit above parallel
PC 170lbs
Conventional DL 315
100m: 11.78fat

5'9"-10"
175-80lbs
TDL: 515
PC: ~320
Squat: 440 below parallel
BP: 355
100m: 10.55fat

Most of my speed improvements have come from my first 30-40m or so--while I used to come from behind in short races, I now am caught from behind in short races.

With all of this, my vertical has improved by about the same amount as my height. I can now, on a good day, grab rim with one hand/dunk a tennis ball from a running 2 legged jump. I can't come close to touching from any 1 legged jumping and there is a tiny differential between my running and standing vertical.

How could this happen? While I don't compete in basketball nor do I plan on ever doing dunk contests, I've always wanted to be able to slam one solidly with two hands. At various points, I have thought it may have to do with ankle stiffness or lack of it--I do tend to collapse a bit on jumps and top speed is certainly not my forte (then again, I'm running much faster than most guys who can dunk and at not a very light weight).

I've done nearly every type of training conceivable at various points for varying lengths. Bro interval running + bodybuilding lifting, CFTS type training, etc. I've never really focused on my vertical, but I have done plyos at various points--from different types of bounding to depth jumps to pogo hops, etc. The only jumps that have seemed to consistently progress to some degree are single leg bounds (like LLLL or RRRR) and DBL bounds. Alternating bounds have somehow had little improvement, any type of VJ has had little to no improvement, etc.

Any ideas or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

tychver · « **Reply #1 on:** May 30, 2011, 05:42:51 pm »

How much work have you been doing on specific jumping drills? Used mild-moderate shock training? EDIT: Missed that bit but more details would be useful.

I had a similar thing where at 5'8 with a 170kg ass to floor squat at 80kg I could only just nick the rim despite jumping every second day. Basically as high as I was getting when I could squat 110kg at 70kg, although my standing jump had improved heaps. It took more specific drills, mostly working on feet and ankles for me, and 18-24" depth jumps and my single leg RVJ went up 4" in a month from being only slightly higher than my standing 31-32" to 35-36".

Raptor · « **Reply #2 on:** May 30, 2011, 05:48:32 pm »

Interesting. You did plyos for the lower leg or strength (calf raises) work tychver?

tychver · « **Reply #3 on:** May 30, 2011, 06:04:45 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on May 30, 2011, 05:48:32 pm

Interesting. You did plyos for the lower leg or strength (calf raises) work tychver?

Both but leaned towards "plyos". I was also suffering from a pretty serious rolled ankle which started me off doing it. 1-2 leg pogos and four squares, RFI line hops, lateral barrier jumps, low 12-18" one leg depth drops, band resisted inversion/eversion and single leg calf raises. Then did some sprinting, bounding and 18-24" depth jumps. Also have fairly flat feet with poor arch.

longvol · « **Reply #4 on:** May 30, 2011, 09:33:25 pm »

Quote from: tychver on May 30, 2011, 05:42:51 pm

How much work have you been doing on specific jumping drills? Used mild-moderate shock training? EDIT: Missed that bit but more details would be useful.

I had a similar thing where at 5'8 with a 170kg ass to floor squat at 80kg I could only just nick the rim despite jumping every second day. Basically as high as I was getting when I could squat 110kg at 70kg, although my standing jump had improved heaps. It took more specific drills, mostly working on feet and ankles for me, and 18-24" depth jumps and my single leg RVJ went up 4" in a month from being only slightly higher than my standing 31-32" to 35-36".

I certainly have not done as much jump specific work as one would if they were focusing purely on VJ. I am definitely not supremely skilled in those movements; however, I never was and I would have though that the general improvement in power/strength and elasticity (evidenced by sprint results) would have resulted in significant improvements in the VJ as well and it just never happened.

I have considered doing a LOT more specific work for the feet and ankles, but am unsure of how to incorporate it and have not seen a lot of significant results from other posters other than random bros who do Air Alert or are basically untrained. I'm far from untrained and my lifting/running stats wouldn't be possible for a person with my talent without a lot of training.

dirksilver · « **Reply #5 on:** May 30, 2011, 10:17:39 pm »

Quote from: longvol on May 30, 2011, 09:33:25 pm

Quote from: tychver on May 30, 2011, 05:42:51 pm
How much work have you been doing on specific jumping drills? Used mild-moderate shock training? EDIT: Missed that bit but more details would be useful.

I had a similar thing where at 5'8 with a 170kg ass to floor squat at 80kg I could only just nick the rim despite jumping every second day. Basically as high as I was getting when I could squat 110kg at 70kg, although my standing jump had improved heaps. It took more specific drills, mostly working on feet and ankles for me, and 18-24" depth jumps and my single leg RVJ went up 4" in a month from being only slightly higher than my standing 31-32" to 35-36".

I certainly have not done as much jump specific work as one would if they were focusing purely on VJ. I am definitely not supremely skilled in those movements; however, I never was and I would have though that the general improvement in power/strength and elasticity (evidenced by sprint results) would have resulted in significant improvements in the VJ as well and it just never happened.

I have considered doing a LOT more specific work for the feet and ankles, but am unsure of how to incorporate it and have not seen a lot of significant results from other posters other than random bros who do Air Alert or are basically untrained. I'm far from untrained and my lifting/running stats wouldn't be possible for a person with my talent without a lot of training.

ok so you just pin pointed what you need to do...more jump specific work if you'd like to dunk...you have the lifting numbers it would seem...now work on the movement efficiency and plyometric end of things

longvol · « **Reply #6 on:** May 30, 2011, 10:23:55 pm »

Quote from: dirksilver on May 30, 2011, 10:17:39 pm

Quote from: longvol on May 30, 2011, 09:33:25 pm
Quote from: tychver on May 30, 2011, 05:42:51 pm
How much work have you been doing on specific jumping drills? Used mild-moderate shock training? EDIT: Missed that bit but more details would be useful.

I had a similar thing where at 5'8 with a 170kg ass to floor squat at 80kg I could only just nick the rim despite jumping every second day. Basically as high as I was getting when I could squat 110kg at 70kg, although my standing jump had improved heaps. It took more specific drills, mostly working on feet and ankles for me, and 18-24" depth jumps and my single leg RVJ went up 4" in a month from being only slightly higher than my standing 31-32" to 35-36".

I certainly have not done as much jump specific work as one would if they were focusing purely on VJ. I am definitely not supremely skilled in those movements; however, I never was and I would have though that the general improvement in power/strength and elasticity (evidenced by sprint results) would have resulted in significant improvements in the VJ as well and it just never happened.

I have considered doing a LOT more specific work for the feet and ankles, but am unsure of how to incorporate it and have not seen a lot of significant results from other posters other than random bros who do Air Alert or are basically untrained. I'm far from untrained and my lifting/running stats wouldn't be possible for a person with my talent without a lot of training.

ok so you just pin pointed what you need to do...more jump specific work if you'd like to dunk...you have the lifting numbers it would seem...now work on the movement efficiency and plyometric end of things

Jumping skill can be improved, sure. The fact remains that I have been doing plyos in various forms and excel at a level well beyond casual dunking ability in sprinting (the most 'reactive' active a human can do). I'm not sure how much doing a lot of VJs is going to help--the strength and plyometric ability I've added at this point has account for essentially 0.

dirksilver · « **Reply #7 on:** May 30, 2011, 11:27:34 pm »

Quote from: longvol on May 30, 2011, 10:23:55 pm

Quote from: dirksilver on May 30, 2011, 10:17:39 pm
Quote from: longvol on May 30, 2011, 09:33:25 pm
Quote from: tychver on May 30, 2011, 05:42:51 pm
How much work have you been doing on specific jumping drills? Used mild-moderate shock training? EDIT: Missed that bit but more details would be useful.

I had a similar thing where at 5'8 with a 170kg ass to floor squat at 80kg I could only just nick the rim despite jumping every second day. Basically as high as I was getting when I could squat 110kg at 70kg, although my standing jump had improved heaps. It took more specific drills, mostly working on feet and ankles for me, and 18-24" depth jumps and my single leg RVJ went up 4" in a month from being only slightly higher than my standing 31-32" to 35-36".

I certainly have not done as much jump specific work as one would if they were focusing purely on VJ. I am definitely not supremely skilled in those movements; however, I never was and I would have though that the general improvement in power/strength and elasticity (evidenced by sprint results) would have resulted in significant improvements in the VJ as well and it just never happened.

I have considered doing a LOT more specific work for the feet and ankles, but am unsure of how to incorporate it and have not seen a lot of significant results from other posters other than random bros who do Air Alert or are basically untrained. I'm far from untrained and my lifting/running stats wouldn't be possible for a person with my talent without a lot of training.

ok so you just pin pointed what you need to do...more jump specific work if you'd like to dunk...you have the lifting numbers it would seem...now work on the movement efficiency and plyometric end of things

Jumping skill can be improved, sure. The fact remains that I have been doing plyos in various forms and excel at a level well beyond casual dunking ability in sprinting (the most 'reactive' active a human can do). I'm not sure how much doing a lot of VJs is going to help--the strength and plyometric ability I've added at this point has account for essentially 0.

but you said you weren't good at single leg jumping right? because being good at sprinting doesn't correlate to two legged jumping th same way it dose to single leg jumping i'm pretty sure...so what i'm saying is being fast doesn't make you a good double leg jumper...you have to practice it and preform depth jumps and such probably

Raptor · « **Reply #8 on:** May 31, 2011, 04:25:26 am »

I think we could come will all kinds of ideas, but maybe the best thing you can do is to actually jump at a rim right now. Maybe lower rims. A rim that allows you to dunk two handed and work your way up to 10 feet.

Also, if you're so good at sprinting (as demonstrated by your sprint time for 100m) then it's maybe a matter of converting horizontal power into vertical displacement off one leg.

steven-miller · « **Reply #9 on:** May 31, 2011, 09:37:56 am »

@longvol: Your numbers are pretty impressive and I am sure we can all agree that you have the strength and power to jump very high. I am wondering though if you have measured your actual vertical jump height yet. I advise you to do that and then we will get a better picture of things. The highest touch from a jump can obviously mean very different things for people with differing standing reach. When you are already well in the mid 30s or higher, then there would be nothing outrageously strange about your performance profile.
Other then that I am not a huge believer in the theory that jumping from a standstill is a terribly complicated movement that takes tons of practice either. BUT you certainly have to practice the act of jumping to a decent degree and most people who rarely jump will make gains in jumping performance from that alone. And from personal experience I can say that not jumping for a while will have a negative effect even for people who are pretty skilled at it.

I recently "tested" the VJ of a hobby weightlifter I train with. He is about your height, 170 lbs and full cleans 215 lbs with lots of room to grow though. Those are not impressive numbers by any means, but you would expect him to do a decent jump (at least 28") with that power relative to his low bodyweight. To cut the story short I could not even get a measurement out of him since he was unable to reach the target by at least 8 inches judging from how it looked. That target was 9'8" high. I don't say the guy is a gifted athlete by any means, but he has some strength and power. His VJ is so uncoordinated though that he cannot seem to express it at all.

dirksilver · « **Reply #10 on:** May 31, 2011, 05:40:53 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on May 31, 2011, 09:37:56 am

I am not a huge believer in the theory that jumping from a standstill is a terribly complicated movement that

i agree but i was talking about(and i assume he was too)a running vertical jump which is a different story...it takes a fair amount of practice to get good at either a single or double leg running vertical jump...especially if he doesn't do them...i think raptor was probably closest(for the limited information)to the point about longvol not being able to transfer horizontal power into vertical power

longvol · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2011, 08:12:22 pm »

The lack of horizontal to vertical transference is certainly possible and something I have thought about; however, most sprint/track coaches would disagree that someone hitting that top speed (which is almost entirely vertical in nature) has a problem expressing vertical power/elasticity/whatever.

@Steven--I have not measured the actual height. I imagine my vertical is around 33-34" or so standing on a good day based on approximate reach, etc. I have great doubts it is any better and it could be a little bit worse. My running vertical is barely any different than my standing.

Thanks for all of the responses--they are very appreciated and insightful. I look forward to hearing from Adarq as well when he is free to post.

Raptor · « **Reply #12 on:** June 01, 2011, 04:33:40 am »

Well it depends what kind of jumper you are as well. Maybe you sprint well at top speed yet jump during the acceleration phase (3-5 steps run-up, strength jump), where you're used to push forward and not necessarily up. If you jump off one leg, of course.

A video would be very helpful.

joejoe22 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2011, 07:24:28 am »

There could be a mental aspect involved as well. It seems like you are basing your vertical on touching the rim. Try jumping and touching as high as you can on the wall. Sometimes your eye sees a target and it is hard to go past it. May not be the case but can't hurt to try.

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Author Topic: Lack of VJ progression (Read 5488 times)

longvol

Lack of VJ progression

tychver

Re: Lack of VJ progression

Raptor

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tychver

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longvol

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dirksilver

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longvol

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dirksilver

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Raptor

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steven-miller

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dirksilver

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longvol

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Raptor

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joejoe22

Re: Lack of VJ progression