Author Topic: low bar squat vs high bar squat (Read 26723 times)

LBSS · « **Reply #45 on:** November 19, 2010, 11:17:52 am »

I agree with you JCsBck, but Bret Contreras is a complete idiot. Don't trust anything he says.

bball2020 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 19, 2010, 12:44:11 pm »

Right, so to lift the most weight max weigh listen to guys like ripptoe and westside

to jump the highest, sprint the fastest, or become overall better athletes, along with balancing the demands of becoming better sportmen, listen to James Smith, Tom mylinski, Charlie Francis, Buddy Morris, etc.

For everything in life, listen to Adarq

steven-miller · « **Reply #47 on:** November 19, 2010, 01:20:32 pm »

Quote from: LBSS on November 19, 2010, 09:41:14 am

Yeah, I guess John Smith is a complete retard coaching-wise. I mean, he can't even teach a full squat! What a worthless coach.

Or maybe the guy who coached Maurice Greene, Ato Boldon, Carmelita Jeter and a bunch of sub-10 guys and a couple of 400m Olympic champs has realized throughout his decades of coaching that YOU DON'T HAVE TO SQUAT TO BE A GREAT ATHLETE. If it's going to distract from the main focus of training, why bother?

No, you don't need to squat, you can be a great athlete if you have good enough parents, too. So why don't we all choose ours instead of becoming stronger, seems like the best idea.

Quote from: JCsBck on November 19, 2010, 10:25:03 am

That's his opinion, but science (if you count using an EMG as science) and personal experience shows half squats (not 1/4 but same idea) hit the pchain quite well.

http://www.t-nation.com/testosterone-magazine-623#inside-the-muscles

Of course half squats will hit the p-chain as well, I don't need EMG "research", that has a ton of problems, to tell me that. There is hip extension involved, so you will activate the according muscles. You will still have a better strength exercise with a full squat.

TheSituation · « **Reply #48 on:** November 19, 2010, 01:45:11 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on November 19, 2010, 01:20:32 pm

Of course half squats will hit the p-chain as well, I don't need EMG "research", that has a ton of problems, to tell me that. There is hip extension involved, so you will activate the according muscles. You will still have a better strength exercise with a full squat.

Of course the full squat is better assuming you could do the same amount of weight on a full squat as you can on a half squat, but you can't, so half squat wins.

AlexV · « **Reply #49 on:** November 19, 2010, 03:36:55 pm »

LBSS · « **Reply #50 on:** November 19, 2010, 03:45:58 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on November 19, 2010, 01:20:32 pm

Quote from: LBSS on November 19, 2010, 09:41:14 am
Yeah, I guess John Smith is a complete retard coaching-wise. I mean, he can't even teach a full squat! What a worthless coach.

Or maybe the guy who coached Maurice Greene, Ato Boldon, Carmelita Jeter and a bunch of sub-10 guys and a couple of 400m Olympic champs has realized throughout his decades of coaching that YOU DON'T HAVE TO SQUAT TO BE A GREAT ATHLETE. If it's going to distract from the main focus of training, why bother?

No, you don't need to squat, you can be a great athlete if you have good enough parents, too. So why don't we all choose ours instead of becoming stronger, seems like the best idea.

Yeah cause god knows you can't become stronger without ATG squatting. Elite athletes do strength exercises, they ARE STRONG, but many of them don't do full squats. In fact, I wonder how many Olympic athletes do real, honest-to-god full squats in their training, lifters aside. Or how many players within a given pro sport.

Do you think Rajon Rondo full squats when he trains? How about Vince Young? How about Chris Johnson? How about Cristiano Ronaldo? Dwight Howard? Jason Kidd? Andre Agassi, back in the day? How about Lindsay Vonn? I don't know, but I highly doubt it. Why should they invest time, energy and mental focus in steven-miller-approved full squatting? They spend all their time and energy doing important things, like getting better at their sport.

steven-miller · « **Reply #51 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:20:41 pm »

Quote from: JCsBck on November 19, 2010, 01:45:11 pm

Of course the full squat is better assuming you could do the same amount of weight on a full squat as you can on a half squat, but you can't, so half squat wins.

No, they don't, but I do not expect you to comprehend that.

Quote from: AlexV on November 19, 2010, 03:36:55 pm

...

That was actually a very good and insightful post!
What we have to deduce from that is, that the work-out of a college athlete will usually be somewhat different than what I or many other hobbyists will be doing, mainly for recovery reasons. So "effective" training will look different for those two populations and we should not necessarily look at what coaches of the other group are doing to determine what will be the best course of action for oneself.

Quote from: LBSS on November 19, 2010, 03:45:58 pm

Yeah cause god knows you can't become stronger without ATG squatting. Elite athletes do strength exercises, they ARE STRONG, but many of them don't do full squats. In fact, I wonder how many Olympic athletes do real, honest-to-god full squats in their training, lifters aside. Or how many players within a given pro sport.

Do you think Rajon Rondo full squats when he trains? How about Vince Young? How about Chris Johnson? How about Cristiano Ronaldo? Dwight Howard? Jason Kidd? Andre Agassi, back in the day? How about Lindsay Vonn? I don't know, but I highly doubt it. Why should they invest time, energy and mental focus in steven-miller-approved full squatting? They spend all their time and energy doing important things, like getting better at their sport.

Elite athletes are often very strong/fast/amazing because of other reasons than training - at least to a substantial degree. That is also the reason why mentioned people might not even be familiar with a weight room. That however does not mean that the same source of action (becoming stronger being secondary to 6 days a week skill training for ones sport) is indicated for you and me to optimize results.

adarqui · « **Reply #52 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:31:47 pm »

Quote from: bball2020 on November 19, 2010, 12:44:11 pm

Right, so to lift the most weight max weigh listen to guys like ripptoe and westside

to jump the highest, sprint the fastest, or become overall better athletes, along with balancing the demands of becoming better sportmen, listen to James Smith, Tom mylinski, Charlie Francis, Buddy Morris, etc.

For everything in life, listen to Adarq

i agree with this post, especially the last line.

As much as james smith bugs me, he is a damn good coach, and he did have some very impressive videos of his own performance, I remember a good broad jump vid, decent vert, and some insane high rep pullups for a guy his size.

The rest listed, of course are excellent coaches as well.

I believe in the "there's a squat style that is best for you" approach for athletic performance improvement, which is obviously different than rippetoe's stance. For example, I would never try and force high jumpers into a deep squat.

pc

adarqui · « **Reply #53 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:37:22 pm »

Quote from: JCsBck on November 19, 2010, 01:45:11 pm

Quote from: steven-miller on November 19, 2010, 01:20:32 pm
Of course half squats will hit the p-chain as well, I don't need EMG "research", that has a ton of problems, to tell me that. There is hip extension involved, so you will activate the according muscles. You will still have a better strength exercise with a full squat.

Of course the full squat is better assuming you could do the same amount of weight on a full squat as you can on a half squat, but you can't, so half squat wins.

x2, "better" is the keyword here.. if you compare all of the aspects, such as what james smith basically did, half squat is obviously "better" for athletic performance by principle.

regardless, improving your half squat strength or ATG squat strength still lead to the same end result. Again, it's just some athletes will be able to utilize ATG squatting more effectively than others. If I tried to get Eddie deep squatting, we'd still be doing mobility & squats with a dowell/45 lb bar, he's not built for it, most people into vert/basketball are not built for it.

The vast majority of people who are REAL basketball players, are not built for ATG squatting. Long legs, short torso, very lanky, small chest cavity, the end.

adarqui · « **Reply #54 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:42:33 pm »

Quote from: AlexV on November 19, 2010, 03:36:55 pm

Excellent post...

edit: I remember jaron (jason?) gilbert had a really impressive half squat vid, which took some heat, because of all of the ATG maniacs.. that dude was very explosive, nice vert too.

on somewhat of a tangent that needs no response:

btw, a few other members who have experienced hip pain are Vag (not built for ATG squatting), spikejon (i forget his SHR but his squat form was great), and Adam from tvs (rippetoe style squat). Not saying everyone will get hip issues from it, but, adam is a great example, because his form was damn near perfect and he was definitely built to squat in that manner. His hip pain became pretty intense from what I remember.

LBSS · « **Reply #55 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:51:47 pm »

Quote from: steven-miller on November 19, 2010, 06:20:41 pm

Quote from: LBSS on November 19, 2010, 03:45:58 pm
Yeah cause god knows you can't become stronger without ATG squatting. Elite athletes do strength exercises, they ARE STRONG, but many of them don't do full squats. In fact, I wonder how many Olympic athletes do real, honest-to-god full squats in their training, lifters aside. Or how many players within a given pro sport.

Do you think Rajon Rondo full squats when he trains? How about Vince Young? How about Chris Johnson? How about Cristiano Ronaldo? Dwight Howard? Jason Kidd? Andre Agassi, back in the day? How about Lindsay Vonn? I don't know, but I highly doubt it. Why should they invest time, energy and mental focus in steven-miller-approved full squatting? They spend all their time and energy doing important things, like getting better at their sport.

Elite athletes are often very strong/fast/amazing because of other reasons than training - at least to a substantial degree. That is also the reason why mentioned people might not even be familiar with a weight room. That however does not mean that the same source of action (becoming stronger being secondary to 6 days a week skill training for ones sport) is indicated for you and me to optimize results.

What? Sure, you need good genetics to be an elite athlete, but beyond that, how other than a decade plus of busting their asses in training do you think elite athletes get strong/fast/amazing? I squat because, like you say, I'm a hobbyist. I like to squat full and feel better about myself when I do than when I catch myself "cheating" on reps. And make no mistake, squatting is a fantastic exercise for developing leg strength. Duh. I would probably keep squatting full if I were to throw myself more completely into mastering a particular sport, for those reasons. But I don't for a second think that squatting is some kind of magical exercise that becomes infinitely more valuable when done through a larger range of movement.

bball2020 · « **Reply #56 on:** November 19, 2010, 09:13:09 pm »

**Forgot landon evans great stuff on elitefts. Also forgot Alex V=beast and i guess that kelly guy knows stuff too

soo in no particular order, everyone that aspires to training themselves and train for sports or a particular sport athlete, ready as much as you can from-

James Smith,
Tom mylinski,
Landon Evans
Charlie Francis,
Buddy Morris
Alex V
Kelly B
and more..

To develop a 40+ inch running vertical jump, and to learn how to dress during training sessions, among other things, ask adarq

Anyways, good posts and good thread. Very good points Alex. How do you personally squat now? how do you coach your athletes to squat?

AlexV · « **Reply #57 on:** November 19, 2010, 09:34:39 pm »

Quote from: adarqui on November 19, 2010, 06:42:33 pm

edit: I remember jaron (jason?) gilbert had a really impressive half squat vid, which took some heat, because of all of the ATG maniacs.. that dude was very explosive, nice vert too.

Gilly is 6'6" and has very long limbs. He is not built for squats at all. He could jump through a roof at 295lbs

AlexV · « **Reply #58 on:** November 19, 2010, 09:38:34 pm »

Quote from: bball2020 on November 19, 2010, 09:13:09 pm

**Forgot landon evans great stuff on elitefts. Also forgot Alex V=beast and i guess that kelly guy knows stuff too

soo in no particular order, everyone that aspires to training themselves and train for sports or a particular sport athlete, ready as much as you can from-

James Smith,
Tom mylinski,
Landon Evans
Charlie Francis,
Buddy Morris
Alex V
Kelly B
and more..

To develop a 40+ inch running vertical jump, and to learn how to dress during training sessions, among other things, ask adarq

Anyways, good posts and good thread. Very good points Alex. How do you personally squat now? how do you coach your athletes to squat?

I use a few varieties based on what I am training for. Olympic ATG style on a quad emphasis. Currently using a rippetoe type squat cause I am focusing more on the pchain. For glute emphasis I do a loaded potty squat. Basically I try to pick the right tool for the job. Those are the 3 types of back squats I've done in the past 6 months

I let depth be dictated by mobility and performance. if they get into a hyper lordotic or kyphotic position I have athletes squat higher so they stay neutral. Proper performance is always better than depth. The way I see it is that as long as the target group is getting stringer I don;t lose sleep over depth. Of course mobility work is always included but depth is less important than strengthening the appropriate muscles properly.

I guess that is why I am more on the fence about every exercise. Don't get married to any one dogma. Olympics are good, so are jump squats, powermetrics (REA), Squat high, squat low. Look at the complete picture of every athlete and pick the movements and methods that best suit their needs and goals.

You can get a high school lifter squatting properly and successfully use DE, REA, and jump squats in place of olympics and easily achieve the same results.

I recall the old coach Ian King saying that the older he gets the more his answers begin with "it depends" because it does depend. You dont exercise in a vacuum. Head coaching style, injuries, previous training experience, sport demands, time constraints (ever try to teach 100 kids to squat ATG when you only have 1 hour?), size of the group, head coaches needs, discipline of the group (try to control a team with a soft head coach... impossible), and more...

bball2020 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 19, 2010, 09:44:55 pm »

what is a potty squat?

Adarq.org

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Author Topic: low bar squat vs high bar squat (Read 26723 times)

LBSS

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bball2020

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steven-miller

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TheSituation

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AlexV

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LBSS

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steven-miller

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adarqui

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adarqui

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adarqui

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LBSS

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bball2020

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AlexV

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AlexV

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