Author Topic: Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands  (Read 2222 times)

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Slowman

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Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands
« on: June 03, 2009, 02:36:54 pm »
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Recently I've take a very large interest in energy systems and their role in the setup of my workouts. I've found that I sometimes add too many elements into a work that tap into one or more energy systems, but using the 8min rule(I use 8-10mins depending) I feel that I'm not using my limited amounts of ATP optimally.
An example would be as follows:
1. Single leg RFI hops x 25s          Duration: 25s                                           Alactic bordering lactic
2. Single leg RFI hops x 25s          Duration: 25s                                           Alactic bordering lacticAlactic bordering lactic
3. Drops x5                                Duration: 2-5s (actuall absorb time)            ATP possible into Creatine Phospate by end of set
4. Straight leg bounds 20m           Duration: 3-4s                                         Creatine Phospate
5. flying 20m (20m lead)               Duration: 5s                                           Creatine Phospate

Now If I'm using the 8 min rule I have roughly 96 seconds between exercises (not including work time). Knowing that it takes roughly 15-20s at high intensity to fully deplete creatine stores, then after the bounds and sprints creatine stores are 25-33% depleted. Now take into account that it takes around 8 mins to fully replete creatine stores. So at minimum to start fresh on another rep I need 120-159s to be fully recovered (from an energy standpoint) to perform maximally between the bounds and sprints.

Im barely getting any recovery btw sprints, and if that is my goal then Im shortchanging myself. Add in the fact that for my RFI hops I will be depleting creatine stores before tapping into glucose as an ATP source. So now I have 4 elements in my 8 min cycle that are not being trained optimally.

My thoughts are that this setup has too much crammed into one session. I think that if using the 8 min rule is to be effective, energy demands need to be leveraged against each exercise. So a revamped schedule may look like this:
Workout #1
1. Single leg RFI hops x 25s          Duration: 25s                                           Alactic bordering lactic
2. Single leg RFI hops x 25s          Duration: 25s                                           Alactic bordering lacticAlactic bordering lactic
3. Drops x5                                Duration: 2-5s (actuall absorb time)            ATP possible into Creatine Phospate by end of set
Workout #2
1. Straight leg bounds 20m           Duration: 3-4s                                         Creatine Phospate
2. flying 20m (20m lead)               Duration: 5s                                           Creatine Phospate
3. Drops x5                                Duration: 2-5s (actuall absorb time)            ATP possible into Creatine Phospate by end of set


And within the workouts, it would make sense to alter the rests to optimize ATP replenishment. Longer rests btw two elements with high energy demands and a shorter rest after the drops.

This is obviously only taken from an energy standpoint. I'm not as educated on the rate of CNS fatigue, but I'd imagine it follows closely.

Thoughts?

Slowman

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Re: Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 02:46:18 pm »
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I think I'm going to take this approach with my summer trainees. Less is more. Only focus on what is needed. I think the templates outlined in the inno-sport DVDs tried to tackle too much in one session, which is where I gleaned a lot of information.


RJ,

Any insight on the energy systems and the neccassary times for recovery? From what I've read creatine begins to deplete at about 10s and is gone by 20. However another article claimed that it is gone by 10s. What have you come across in your research?

RJ Nelsen

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Re: Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 02:54:39 pm »
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I ran into the same problem when I tried to use the 8 minute rule, and truth be told, I'm not fond of it in the least. Even when the number of exercises is stripped down I still don't like it. And trying to assign rest periods by energy consumption alone probably isn't the best choice either.

As you've pointed out, following the eight minute rule does limit the number of exercises per session, but it also decreases the work quality. You may be recovered and ready to go physically from depth jumps within a minute, but your CNS might not fully recover for up to 8-10. In fact, depth jumps peak as a potentiation exercise after around 8 minutes of rest. That should give you an idea of how long you should rest after a set. For strength exercises, it believe it's around 4 minutes.

Basically, IMO, the key is just to train what you need at the highest quality possible. This may mean each rotation is 15 minutes, but as long as the quality of work is there, everything should work out. However, if conditioning is the main priority then I would follow the eight minute rule.  

And as for your second post (it just popped up while I was typing my reply to the first one), it all depends on the exercise, funny enough. I can recover from An-2 line hops in ~2 minutes, but recovering from An-2 sprints takes 10-20 minutes. This is one area where I've found no hard or fast rules.

As I noted above though, the peak of the potentiation effect of depth jumps/drops is after 8 minutes of rest. For lifting, it's at 4 minutes. If you have on element in your training you really want to focus on, performing the right kind of potentiation prior to it would be helpful.

Slowman

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Re: Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 03:50:01 pm »
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I would have to agree that for conditioining, the 8 min rule is very effective when you have more than 2 exercises. 

This brings up another issue. If we look to optimize CNS recovery and the potentiation affects of depth drops, say in conjuction with a top speed workout, then we are looking at potentially 16mins before hitting depth jumps for a second time. Optimal for potentiation, maybe, but I dont think it's all that practical from a time standpoint; especially in a team environment. I think a 16 min setup may work very well just prior to a championship competition.

That being said, depth jumps also serve as a tool to learn how to manipulate force. If force manipulation and movement efficiency are the goal, then waiting for the full potentiation effects of the depth jumps may not be neccasary. I'm not up on the details, but I would think that the full potentiation effects could be manipulated by changing the variables, like drop height or as in with AMT, the acceleration. If the height of the drop is sub optimal in order to ingrain the movement patterns, then I think you gain some potentiation with also the learning aspect.

And now I forgot where I was going with this.....more to come later, I hope.

adarqui

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Re: Organizing Training to Optimize Energy Demands
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 06:11:53 pm »
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I would have to agree that for conditioining, the 8 min rule is very effective when you have more than 2 exercises. 

This brings up another issue. If we look to optimize CNS recovery and the potentiation affects of depth drops, say in conjuction with a top speed workout, then we are looking at potentially 16mins before hitting depth jumps for a second time. Optimal for potentiation, maybe, but I dont think it's all that practical from a time standpoint; especially in a team environment. I think a 16 min setup may work very well just prior to a championship competition.

That being said, depth jumps also serve as a tool to learn how to manipulate force. If force manipulation and movement efficiency are the goal, then waiting for the full potentiation effects of the depth jumps may not be neccasary. I'm not up on the details, but I would think that the full potentiation effects could be manipulated by changing the variables, like drop height or as in with AMT, the acceleration. If the height of the drop is sub optimal in order to ingrain the movement patterns, then I think you gain some potentiation with also the learning aspect.

And now I forgot where I was going with this.....more to come later, I hope.

i'd think it would be better to stack the depth drops together, and then perform the sprinting.

the problem is that you are going to have so much time in between sprinting, and to achieve multiple sprints in one session, you could easily get stale.

i'd think something like this would work better;
depth drop set
rest
depth drop set
rest
sprint
rest
sprint

if the drops are indeed being utilized as a force absorption tool, and not a stim tool, then ya there is no reason to rest the full amount.

peace