Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on April 22, 2013, 06:31:08 pm
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OK so I have decided it's time to shut up and start going with the basics again, since my high bar squat and quad strength suck SO much right now so I'm currently doing a 2 time per week 3x5 squat + 2x8 RDL + 3x20 calf raise GYM workout.
Now the thing is - I want to be doing reactive and track work the next day.
I work Monday and Thursday and that's when I do the gym work (at night). And then I have Tuesday and Friday as free days when I want to do track work.
The question is - how would you say my approach should be. I'd like to do plyo work mainly, and running/sprinting. I'd like to get lighter as well but reading through that tempo work in the LBSS thread... oh man... it makes running look like brain surgery.
To me running has always been just a natural event, that you don't really have to think about, it's a good reactive exercise and overall exercise for power and elasticity.
My real struggle is to find the right exercise selection for Tuesday and Friday and being an overanalyzer... that's a really, really difficult thing to do. I'd love to single leg bound but at my current bodyweight of ~88 kg I'm not sure it's such a good idea.
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My 9 cents... do whatever you have the most FUN doing, youll be onto some new phenomena next month and what you do this month will have absolutely no significance whatsover. Main thing is have a lot of fun and get ready for the next month of program hopping when you notice your big toes arent up to par.
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They aren't?! FUCK!
Man why did you have to bring that up?!
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Thanks for the help by the way!
And don't act like I'm the "program hopper" because that's not the case. I've been consistently low bar squatting for the last 3 years or so and made that a priority and DID get it to almost 2x at 160 kg @ ~86 kg bodyweight so...
But it turns out the low bar squat doesn't have too much of a correspondence into athleticism, a low bar squat switch that I did, by the way, after your advice.
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My 9 cents... do whatever you have the most FUN doing, youll be onto some new phenomena next month and what you do this month will have absolutely no significance whatsover. Main thing is have a lot of fun and get ready for the next month of program hopping when you notice your big toes arent up to par.
hey now, my big toes are NEVER up to par. not something i only notice between programs.
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Thanks for the help by the way!
But it turns out the low bar squat doesn't have too much of a correspondence into athleticism, a low bar squat switch that I did, by the way, after your advice.
This is possibly your dumbest fucking post on this site, and I am not saying that as an exaggeration.
First, that calculator you are arguing with me about, is made off the premise of "INSERT YOUR FULL LOW bAR SQUAT". IN FACT, THE CREATOR USES THAT EXACT SQUAT STYLE.
second, you were complaining over and over about your knees, and found a method of squatting that allowed you to do so and progress pain free. You were also clear you were interested primarily in SINGLE LEG VERT. Your high bar squat must not have done much for you either.
Third, to say that moving the bar down 3 inches makes the squat not correspond to athleticism ( I saw your edit you fucking ass munch) is FUCKTARDED. There are tons of cases of athletes using a low bar position and making great progress ONLINE, not to mention what actually happens in the gym. If you stand with your feet out wide like a moron and try to drive your ass up in the air, sure, youre no longer even really squatting. None of these are anything I would ever tell you to do.
Do you seriously think that your progress is purely up to your squat style? I remember your dumb ass posting several times "I GOT THE HIGHEST I HAVE EVER GOTTEN TODAY OMG" during this time also. You went retard mode and changed your plan 10000x again and again, thats where you failed.
Its funny you would try and use one of the ONLY productive time spans in your log, AS A SHOT AT ME. LMFAO. "I need quads" "I need plant speed" "i need a tampon" <----- thats what keeps you from getting anywhere.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdn2p1M1wkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H7PKsNk2qQ
42 inch standing vert
and 99 percent of defrancos guys use a low bar position
this took 30 seconds to find multiple examples of athletes using this bar position at a fairly high level.
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My 9 cents... do whatever you have the most FUN doing, youll be onto some new phenomena next month and what you do this month will have absolutely no significance whatsover. Main thing is have a lot of fun and get ready for the next month of program hopping when you notice your big toes arent up to par.
hey now, my big toes are NEVER up to par. not something i only notice between programs.
should probably quit your normal program and go on a high frequency toe raise set up. If you dont progress, blame it on your choice of using hammer curls over dumbell preachers.
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But it turns out the low bar squat doesn't have too much of a correspondence into athleticism
Well that squat to VJ calculator, as flawed as you see it, has been pretty accurate in my case and in many other cases...
How does the calculator "work" for you, meaning as your squat goes up, so does your vert, yet your squat "doesnt correlate to athleticism"?
Which one is it Raptor, cause it damn sure cant be both...?
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Actually it's written in that program that it's for a high bar squat. That "calculator" had an excel (in the past) that you could download and in that excel it's writted "high bar squat". It usually correlates well for people in between 5'7-5'11 or so and for me it was pretty accurate for low bar squatting too since I can use more weight with the low bar but I'm also taller than that range (and pretty long boned).
The problem with the low bar squat is that the quads just don't grow (for me). When I do low bar squats I feel like my quads are pretty much isometrically contracted and all the actualy concentric work is done by the posterior chain. Who knows at what degree they're actually doing work?
But yeah, I've been doing low bar squats because of the knee issues, that's correct. You're also right about the very wide stance - not being able to get depth with a medium stance (and not having o-lifting shoes) - I had to stay wider to get deeper.
Maybe if I could've use a medium stance and got deep with the low bar squat then more correlation to jumping would've happened.
I don't get why you think I've hopped around programs when I in fact CONSISTENTLY low bar squatted for 2 years or so. Yeah the programming might've been different every now and then but keep in mind some people change it every 8 weeks or so so... what's the big deal?
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MRI = 200 euros and doesn't do anything for me.
Surgery = possibly getting too much anesthesic or getting infected and dying. Thanks but I'm not interested. I don't trust the doctors. I'd rather expect them to kill me and then say "Oh we're incompetent. D'ah well, you're free to sue us if you don't like it".
Pretty hard to sue people when you're dead.
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But it turns out the low bar squat doesn't have too much of a correspondence into athleticism, a low bar squat switch that I did, by the way, after your advice.
page 66 of your log, after several squat prs in this manner:
Well kinda. No idea if they are PRs but I'm jumping the highest I've ever jumped off two. My jumping technique still sucks as heck, I can barely get a 2 inch gain from the run-up. I either get that or the legs overload and I just stiffen up and jump 20 inches.
Went in the park, played great agressive three on three and some one on one and then threw down two footed GREAT dunks with RL plants... I was QUICKLY jumping off the ground (something I never do) and just slamming it down. Definitely the best two footed dunks I have ever done on 2.96m.
If anything that I noticed, I was using the shoulders/shrugging much better than before. So the ground contact time was much lower and jumps much higher.
Will do the first Joel Smith workout right now in 10 minutes.
Lance Morning workout 6 (actually did it at 17:30):
JUMPS:
NONE
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Full squat (work up to a daily 1RM): bodyweight x 10, 20x8, 60x5, 80x3, 110x1, 130x2, 130x1, 110x5, 60x8 (emphasis on maximum acceleration), 60x8 (same thing)
Pushups: 10+10
Chinups: 6+6
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20 kg front plank : 30s
Side planks: 20s
Bodyweight: 82.0 kg
Rating: Good
Comments: Nice workout, although the bar felt kind of heavy.
Then went in the park and threw down some monstrous tomahawks. Vert was INCREDIBLY HIGH. I think I had one jump where I felt the hips fire at close to maximum strength and power (I usually feel I'm using ~50% of maximum power) and it felt, by the hangtime and where I hit my arm in the rim, about ~38 inches. Just very, very high. I mean, real tomahawks not just one hand dunks.
I think my PRIORITY (and I really have to emphasize that word) is core strength and control at this point. That's by far my weakest link right now. I really need to continue to work on improving core strength and control and I think I'm going to make this the first thing that I do in my morning workouts.
still waiting for your response to how you hit all these pr;s in vert, yet your squat doesnt correlate to athleticism.
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Well yeah but after I bumped my weight up intentionally to ~87 kg (in order to increase my squat) I'm jumping lower now, even at a higher squat to bodyweight ratio (had 160 kg low bar squat at ~85 or so in the past).
And I'm not talking about the one leg jump specifically but two leg jumps as well.
I guess being this heavy doesn't help jumping at all, even if you increase your squat. But then if I were NOT to try to gain weight AND strength then I'd be "spinning my wheels". Right.
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Why do you think that "if I try to not gain weight I will spin my wheels"? Its bullshit, you MIGHT gain a little weight but you also might not, actively TRYING to gain weight is going to negatively affect your results if youre not already lean though. You can make massive gains in relative strength while gaining very little to no weight if you 1.) eat enough protein, and not trash and 2.) train correctly
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Why do you think that "if I try to not gain weight I will spin my wheels"? Its bullshit, you MIGHT gain a little weight but you also might not, actively TRYING to gain weight is going to negatively affect your results if youre not already lean though. You can make massive gains in relative strength while gaining very little to no weight if you 1.) eat enough protein, and not trash and 2.) train correctly
Tell that to steven-miller. He made getting stronger with minimal bodyweight increases look impossible.
At 1.82m and 87 kg, I'm OVERWEIGHT if anything. I swear I've been getting so many mixed messages in the last few years - some people were saying I need to eat MORE to get stronger, basically regardless of my current bodyweight, and some were like "you need to lose weight".
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I wasnt saying you are not training, my original point was you keep changing the focus, when your goals indicate a much more simple approach. You could literally do two or three exercises for you lower body, but push the living FUCK out of those few, and do something like bounds and dunks, with a good diet and youd have a whole program that would get you on a linear path upwards rather than this circular one.
^that was what I meant about changing focus
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Well yeah but after I bumped my weight up intentionally to ~87 kg (in order to increase my squat) I'm jumping lower now, even at a higher squat to bodyweight ratio (had 160 kg low bar squat at ~85 or so in the past).
And I'm not talking about the one leg jump specifically but two leg jumps as well.
I guess being thisha heavy doesn't help jumping at all, even if you increase your squat. But then if I were NOT to try to gain weight AND strength then I'd be "spinning my wheels". Right.
or you can slowly add jump reps while you WAIT for the squat fatigue to fade.
you did low bar.. you're on your own there.
that 2nd vid lance posted has a lot of knee folding for a LBBS. thought it was the full squat first. don't assume he got to 40+SVJ from LBBS. those US bobsledders do a lot of FS too.
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Why do you think that "if I try to not gain weight I will spin my wheels"? Its bullshit, you MIGHT gain a little weight but you also might not, actively TRYING to gain weight is going to negatively affect your results if youre not already lean though. You can make massive gains in relative strength while gaining very little to no weight if you 1.) eat enough protein, and not trash and 2.) train correctly
Tell that to steven-miller. He made getting stronger with minimal bodyweight increases look impossible.
At 1.82m and 87 kg, I'm OVERWEIGHT if anything. I swear I've been getting so many mixed messages in the last few years - some people were saying I need to eat MORE to get stronger, basically regardless of my current bodyweight, and some were like "you need to lose weight".
Its silly to say you KNOW someone needs to gain weight due to height/weight unless its simply off the wall ratios. Skeletal structure, different goals, muscle distribution etc, play a huge role in optimal bodyweight.
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I wasnt saying you are not training, my original point was you keep changing the focus, when your goals indicate a much more simple approach. You could literally do two or three exercises for you lower body, but push the living FUCK out of those few, and do something like bounds and dunks, with a good diet and youd have a whole program that would get you on a linear path upwards rather than this circular one.
^that was what I meant about changing focus
This x 1023148324234
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By the way - I think I'll milk this high bar 3x5 I'm doing right now and once I get stuck (after I reset by 10% and try again) I'll probably switch back to low bar and see if it improved after this high bar squat stint.
If I could front squat I'd definitely do low bar back squat + front squat and call it a day.
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Well yeah but after I bumped my weight up intentionally to ~87 kg (in order to increase my squat) I'm jumping lower now, even at a higher squat to bodyweight ratio (had 160 kg low bar squat at ~85 or so in the past).
And I'm not talking about the one leg jump specifically but two leg jumps as well.
I guess being thisha heavy doesn't help jumping at all, even if you increase your squat. But then if I were NOT to try to gain weight AND strength then I'd be "spinning my wheels". Right.
or you can slowly add jump reps while you WAIT for the squat fatigue to fade.
you did low bar.. you're on your own there.
that 2nd vid lance posted has a lot of knee folding for a LBBS. thought it was the full squat first. don't assume he got to 40+SVJ from LBBS. those US bobsledders do a lot of FS too.
You can push your ass out and gm a high bar squat too, it happens a lot, even front squats can turn into a shitty exercise. The knee folding, pushing UP is what makes it a good SQUAT period.
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By the way - I think I'll milk this high bar 3x5 I'm doing right now and once I get stuck (after I reset by 10% and try again) I'll probably switch back to low bar and see if it improved after this high bar squat stint.
If I could front squat I'd definitely do low bar back squat + front squat and call it a day.
just dont keep with the higher bar position if it messes with your knees, otherwise its fine. Nothing was drastically wrong with your squat the way you were, so youre not going to get a magic carryover from a higher bar position if thats what youre expecting.
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By the way - I think I'll milk this high bar 3x5 I'm doing right now and once I get stuck (after I reset by 10% and try again) I'll probably switch back to low bar and see if it improved after this high bar squat stint.
If I could front squat I'd definitely do low bar back squat + front squat and call it a day.
just dont keep with the higher bar position if it messes with your knees, otherwise its fine. Nothing was drastically wrong with your squat the way you were, so youre not going to get a magic carryover from a higher bar position if thats what youre expecting.
But it's MUCH MORE difficult in this high bar way I'm doing it right now. So I guess that's my quads screaming "we're so WEAK". Sure, I probably go much lower now too, and with a narrower stance the total ROM is longer as well, so there are other differences than just the bar position.
You make the call about how much my knees go out in front:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0932wdPNjA
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Those look good Raptor, and its not how far out in front your knees go, rather where the weight is centered. If you look at a really good squat, the weight of the lifter and the load is centered further away from the knee. Thats where the knee stress really come into play, when the center of mass goes forward with the knees.
What could you high bar squat prior to your low bar? Those looked easy, definitely not near maximal.
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Those look good Raptor, and its not how far out in front your knees go, rather where the weight is centered. If you look at a really good squat, the weight of the lifter and the load is centered further away from the knee. Thats where the knee stress really come into play, when the center of mass goes forward with the knees.
What could you high bar squat prior to your low bar? Those looked easy, definitely not near maximal.
Yeah I know what you mean... these O-lift shoes help me not get that center of mass too forward. If I wouldn't have the o-lift shoes I would've continued to low bar squat because my knees wouldn't be happy with a center of mass forward high bar squat (like in the past). The only way I could avoid that with a regular shoe (and not elevating the heels on plates etc) would be to REALLY widen the stance.
As for the max high bar squat... I have no idea. Back in the day I had a "body-crushing" max attempt of 130 kg and then I switched to low bar, I THINK. I'm not sure. Right now my high bar 1RM is probably ~145 kg but I don't want to try it.
This 130 I lifted here ... I have no idea why it looks so easy... it was VERY difficult, not necessarily the rep itself but thinking about repeating that rep was difficult to imagine.
Probably because I'm not used to do high TUT, grinding reps. Maybe I should play around with some tempo variance work in the near future.
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The guy in the top video has a mid low 30" svj. Bottom guy i dno but i agree that lbbs looks more arhletic than a wide stance squat.
Trying to lose weight while gaining strength set me back a lot in the past and hurt my health and nervous system. Id eat as much as you want but just try to keep it clean. A conscious effort to eat more can help but is far from being necessary or sufficient for gains.
Have you tried the narrow lbbs? Even i would try that but im reallysatisfied with my current formso i wont.
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Well I'm currently doing medium stance high bar squats (like you see in that video I posted) and once I stall I'll get back to low bar squats and see where it got me, if they increased. And basically rotate around the low bar and the high bar squat, trying to get benefits from both styles. I THINK.
I'm not sure if this is a good idea or if I should just be choosing one style and stick with that.
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narrow LBBS is the most "natural" squat for me.
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narrow LBBS is the most "natural" squat for me.
I always feel like falling back if I'm not widening my stance or wearing OLS.
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FWIW: the stronger i got, the more and more narrow my stance became without me even realizing it. Squatting High bar.
Actually I believe it was either Raptor or LBSS who commented on my narrow stance a while ago on a video I posted and then it hit me that I was squatting pretty narrowly.
So what I'm trying to say is don't make squat stance width a big deal. Go with what's comfortable. Apparently the body will adjust it on its own.
didn't read thread so carefully but Raptor, are you saying your squat:bw ratio has gone up, yet your vertical has not?
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Those look good Raptor, and its not how far out in front your knees go, rather where the weight is centered. If you look at a really good squat, the weight of the lifter and the load is centered further away from the knee. Thats where the knee stress really come into play, when the center of mass goes forward with the knees.
What could you high bar squat prior to your low bar? Those looked easy, definitely not near maximal.
Yeah I know what you mean... these O-lift shoes help me not get that center of mass too forward. If I wouldn't have the o-lift shoes I would've continued to low bar squat because my knees wouldn't be happy with a center of mass forward high bar squat (like in the past). The only way I could avoid that with a regular shoe (and not elevating the heels on plates etc) would be to REALLY widen the stance.
As for the max high bar squat... I have no idea. Back in the day I had a "body-crushing" max attempt of 130 kg and then I switched to low bar, I THINK. I'm not sure. Right now my high bar 1RM is probably ~145 kg but I don't want to try it.
This 130 I lifted here ... I have no idea why it looks so easy... it was VERY difficult, not necessarily the rep itself but thinking about repeating that rep was difficult to imagine.
Probably because I'm not used to do high TUT, grinding reps. Maybe I should play around with some tempo variance work in the near future.
Thats what I figured, your low bar squat improved your high bar without having high bar squatted. I would squat however you feel most comfortable and in a manner you know you can PROGRESS the most, with adherence to 1. an athletic stance, and 2. whatever squat gives you the biggest rom, and 3. use a correct movement pattern (dont drive your ass up first, drive your chest and shoulders up like you jump.)
Moving the bar down 3 inches on your shoulders doesnt change a good exercise into a bad one, changing the whole MOVEMENT PATTERN does.
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By the way - I used to squat with the feet kinda rotated a lot externally. You know, penguin squats... what would that do? I tried to figure out what is the difference between a front-oriented foot to a externally rotated foot (say 45 degrees) - that, again, could allow me to get deeper - and couldn't figure out.
I mean shouldn't the recruitment be the same? Even if you exaggerate it to prove a point (say you rotate the feet to almost having them pointing to the sides), what would be the difference in recruitment vs a front-pointed feet situation?
I haven't seen any article whatsoever about this. They all say it's "wrong" but nobody says why.
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feet more straightforward allow more torque to be applied up the legs through the hips. not to mention you're more stable.
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I don't understand.
I can sink into my hips better when I externally rotate my feet (say 30 to 45 degrees) and I'm definitely more stable in that position (since I don't feel like falling backwards).
I want to know what the difference in muscle recruitment is, if any.
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Its hard to say what recruitment is going on based only on the feet pointing in or out, the WAY the squat is done, ie. MOVEMENT PATTERN is sooooo many times more important as far as the transfer of training goes.
If youre going on two similar good squats, where the chest and shouders are driven vertically, the feet pointing OUT is going to involve the adductors and medial hamstrings more, and the feet pointing straight forward, the glute med. more.
A few degrees out is perfectly fine, once you start going duck footed though you need to work on mobility/form so you dont develop shitty movement patterns.
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Yeah that's what I meant - what shitty movement patterns do you risk to develop. I have NEVER seen this discussed.
It's interesting but from a specificity for the one leg jump perspective, I plant the foot of the jumping leg in a externally rotated foot anyway so it would actually be MORE specific squatting this way. Obviously the body is differently arranged in a one leg jump than in a squat so ... my comparison is kinda silly.
The problem is that I don't know where I'm lacking in terms of mobility (that is - what is causing the "duck footed" stance - probably hip flexibility?)
I guess doing that sanfranciscocrossfit squat stretch before every squat workout is a good idea, and I'm doing that already.