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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: entropy on February 28, 2013, 08:55:41 am
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Background: 6'3", 75kg/165lb, 29 years old, current ATG front squat 120kg, best full backsquat 130kg (no belt).
Through training & diet i've taken my SVJ up from 20" to over 30" which i'm happy with. I can dunk SVJ with one hand, both hands and almost there with a reverse SVJ dunk.
I now have a decent SVJ and three step jump. I jump much less from RVJ. Always has been the case for as long as I can remember.
Training hasn't done much if anything for my quicker RVJ, it's remained pretty much constant as far as I can tell.
I would like to get my RVJ moving up now. It's more useful to me than SVJ is, SVJ is nice and all but RVJ is sexier and more applicable to sport. To get a good SVJ I dip down quite a bit, approaching the positions and angles of a deep squat but for RVJ where the knee angle is much smaller, I don't get much VJ out of my gym training.
I've never done any jump specific exercises before but I think it's time I started.
Which basic exercises, movements or drills should I add to improve my RVJ in particular?.
Thanks for your time.
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1) Keep weights as they are, RVJ needs stronger legs as much as SVJ.
2) Add depth jumps prior to squating, 4x5 from 18'' box , 20-30'' between reps, 3-5 mins between sets.
3) Add 1 or 2 RVJ sessions weekly. Warm up good and do at least 20 max effort RVJs. Do sets of 3 jumps , 30-45 seconds between jumps , 4-5 minutes betwen sets. Not more than 30, also stop at performance dropoff.
4)???
5) Profit
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you might want to start with lower volume depth jumps than that. 4x5 is kind of a lot.
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4x5 off that height is a lot. I do 8 inch box depth jumps 2x5 and is kinda hard before squatting.
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Objections sustained. To me depth jumps where always easy. 4x5 is normal volume and 18'' is rather medium impact, it is 27'' that make them challenging. But i gotta admit i got very lucky in the joints gene pool, i should not generalize based on that.
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For me depth jumps are hell.
I wonder if there's a good correlation between half squat strength and depth jumps performance, and also RVJ height.
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You know i hate correlations, lol. But yeah, i would guess there is a two-way correlation. Efficient DJ = big tendon stiffness and also great ability to reverse an overloaded eccentric, at the exact RVJ knee bend. The latter is also true for partial squats. Both those qualities are supposed to aid a good RVJ.
My own story confirms that in a way, I am very good at partial squats and DJs, and i do have an RVJ higher than my full squat/body composition would suggest. Used to have anyway :(
So yeah , back to the topic, definitely include depth jumps entropy!!!
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Thanks guys. I'll add the depth jumps & practice rvjs.
Btw why do they have to be done before squatting?
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Btw why do they have to be done before squatting?
It's a general recommendation, not just for DJs, for all 'faster' movements ( plyos, jumps, power cleans/snatches, speed squats etc ). Legs are more 'fresh' for them before the squats, and also they potentiate the following squats, so it works good both-ways. I don't have a study/article/whatever to back it up though.
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There's a bunch of reasons... from greater neural drive being fresh to safety. You wouldn't want to drop off the top of your house after a heavy squat workout wouldn't you? Your muscles would be dead and the amortization would suck. Try it sometimes.
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I tried it once when someone told me to sprint before squatting. I had teh worst squat workout and swore off never to do it again. Maybe jumping is different but i'm wary..
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It depends on the volume and intensity of the plyos you do before the squats. If you do 200m sprints and then you squat... then maybe you're in for a bad squat workout.
If you do something like 3x30m, then you won't have problems. The same applies to the depth jumping and any other plyo work. It can even have potentiation effects, so you do BETTER in the squat workout due to the nervous system being potentiated.
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They were 5x30s but point taken, I'll experiment with depth jumps before and after and see which works better
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So i tried the depth jumps for the first time. Not sure if i'm doing them right, i'll put a video on my log. I started conservatively with a drop of 7". I'll work up to the recommended heights with successive workouts. Thanks again.
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Dunk practice also helps rvj and the coordination with a ball. I usually just start at the three point line and drive to the basket trying to explode up and dunk. Really concentrating exploding from my LR plant. Oddly enough I get the most explosion out of a crossover starting my drive, instead of driving straight to the basket. Helps get me lower I think. How are your rvj dunks compared to your standing dunks? Easier?
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Dunk practice also helps rvj and the coordination with a ball. I usually just start at the three point line and drive to the basket trying to explode up and dunk. Really concentrating exploding from my LR plant. Oddly enough I get the most explosion out of a crossover starting my drive, instead of driving straight to the basket. Helps get me lower I think. How are your rvj dunks compared to your standing dunks? Easier?
i was about to reply with the same thing. most fun way to improve RVJ - RVJ dunking.
vid back in the days when i thought RVJ was cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9C7eiLlVX0
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Thanks guys, it makes sense. Although for whatever reason I would like to increase my RVJ without actually going through the trouble of practicing RVJ dunks. The reason is I don't have ready access to a gym and I only drive out once a week which is a bit of a mission to do more frequently. I made my SVJ go up by doing approx 5jumps a week, so I was hoping to find some way to get my RVJ moving the same way.
pelham, re my rvj dunks - not great im afraid. I can't dunk at all on an fast break, it just doesn't happen, i guess im moving too fast to dip down into the jump?
like in KFs video, i can do the three step dunk pretty well. But if I come into the jump with speed i wont be able to finish the dunk.
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Thanks guys, it makes sense. Although for whatever reason I would like to increase my RVJ without actually going through the trouble of practicing RVJ dunks. The reason is I don't have ready access to a gym and I only drive out once a week which is a bit of a mission to do more frequently. I made my SVJ go up by doing approx 5jumps a week, so I was hoping to find some way to get my RVJ moving the same way.
pelham, re my rvj dunks - not great im afraid. I can't dunk at all on an fast break, it just doesn't happen, i guess im moving too fast to dip down into the jump?
like in KFs video, i can do the three step dunk pretty well. But if I come into the jump with speed i wont be able to finish the dunk.
That's what I meant, start practicing 3 step run up dunks and focus on runup and jump stop speed transferring to a powerful jump and thus an amare stoudemire'esque dunk..
Once a week is fine imo, just to practice dunks then the rest of the time incorporate those plyos.
I posted a vid here a while back in the pics and vids section, and you can see my runup looks so slow as well, even when I think I'm going fast the camera shows otherwise, so I have the same problem as well, as far as runup speed. I feel I need to just practice driving fast with the ball and trying to dunk it like I'm Russel Westbrook or something... This and getting stronger combined with adrenalized situations should promote improvement
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You might also try to make mixed ME jump sessions. Mine went like:
1)dynamic warmup
2)submax jumps sequence:
3 low effort full runup jumps , 3 mid effort dropstep jumps , 3 just below max effort 1 or 2 step jumps. Continuous, 30 to 45 seconds between jumps.
3) ME jumps, 3-5 mins rest between sets:
4xSVJs.
3-4 x dropsteps.
3-4 x full runup jumps.
After that ( ~10 ME jumps ), i would sometimes do another set of full runup jumps if i was chasing a PR.
4) dunks, 3-5 mins rest between sets:
Sets of 4 dunk attempts until either total 30 jumps or performance dropoff.
Was a nice sequence and you get to train a little bit of all jumping patterns, worked great for me.
Just my 0.2 euros! ;D
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You might also try to make mixed ME jump sessions. Mine went like:
1)dynamic warmup
2)submax jumps sequence:
3 low effort full runup jumps , 3 mid effort dropstep jumps , 3 just below max effort 1 or 2 step jumps. Continuous, 30 to 45 seconds between jumps.
3) ME jumps, 3-5 mins rest between sets:
4xSVJs.
3-4 x dropsteps.
3-4 x full runup jumps.
After that ( ~10 ME jumps ), i would sometimes do another set of full runup jumps if i was chasing a PR.
4) dunks, 3-5 mins rest between sets:
Sets of 4 dunk attempts until either total 30 jumps or performance dropoff.
Was a nice sequence and you get to train a little bit of all jumping patterns, worked great for me.
Just my 0.2 euros! ;D
That's actually pretty good, even though this was recommended to Entropy, I will definitely use this sometime !!!
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So I've been doing the drop jumps and lots of dunk practice. So far so good. Today I noticed I could do for the first time, one leg squats. I didn't go deep but in the past I couldn't do them at all. Has the rvj training you guys have me doing been responsible?
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^ I would guess it has much more to do with your huge front squat strength gains, as the mechanics of the pistol squat are very similar to those of the front squat.
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I'm not so sure the bilateral front squat is responsible but perhaps its contributed as well. Funny how I haven't trained for one leg squats at all and I can suddenly do them kinda. Btw when should I use a higher box?
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That front squat / pistol squat resemblance is not my theory, i remember kellyb saying it. But think squat strength in general, both are squat movements. FWIW , i was unable to do a full pistol too and suddenly i was doing 10 pistols, from doing BACK squats only. Suddenly = 1 year of squatting and going from 5*40kg to 5*110kg. A squat motion is a squat motion, being able to front (or back) squat 120kg ( ~195kg with your bodyweight, ~100kg on each leg ) is self explanatory on why you can single leg squat your bodyweight ( ~75kg on each leg ).
As for depth drops/jumps box height ( and other useful info ) : http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/shockmethods.html
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Yup, and it probably has to do with improved mobility and flexibility due to front squatting as well, and being able to keep a vertical torso while lowering.
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It turned out the reason I wasn't able to jump as high from a runup (eg fast break) is because I invariable end up trying to jump off one leg and i'm currently a poor one leg jumper. I used to be a one leg jumper ages before but these days its all double leg. If I consciously think double leg take off, i can get myself into position to jump decently even running.
I have a new question. More than jumping, i have an interest in being able to move quicker, especially from stationary. How do you train that acceleration and explosive movement?
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It's probably a matter of good posture + good posterior chain strength.
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It's probably a matter of good posture + good posterior chain strength.
Posture? Explain please.
Short of clicking my fingers, wishing for and having a 500# deadlift without training for it, what specifically can I do about posterior chain?
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I'm not available for that debate. Thanks but I don't want another "I don't care about doing gay-ass half deadlifts" and stuff like that. You can figure it out on yourself.
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lol, fair enough. Your half deadlifts suck tho, for the record I gave them a nice long chance and got 0 in return :(
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Well when I do them I really play around with the pelvic position and finish the lift in a posterior pelvic tilt - doing this for something like a 3x8 DOES give the glutes some soreness.
But I think in your case you could be better off doing dumbbell or even barbell BSSs - they have always got my glutes SO sore... basically the best exercise for me in terms of glute development (the dumbbell BSS). You can do them after the squats.
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Yea, same when I did BSS for a while and got glute action on them. Perhaps I should re-instate the exercise.
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ya ^ those + these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJsH3BK3TQY
or you could just keep getting stronger like you are and practice the movement you want to be fast at. ;D
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Not yet, maybe some day. My motor patterns for the quick lifts are all wrong, i learnt them badly and it will take too much effort to get them correct. Wish I had never attempted them so I could have learn it properly from the get go :(