Author Topic: Need help for my template  (Read 596 times)

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balder

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Need help for my template
« on: October 24, 2017, 02:30:45 am »
+2
Hey guys,

im trying to get my vert up for quite some time now and i just stumbled upon this forum.  I mostly did the templates in the Vertical Jump Bible 1 and but nothing really got my vert up. My max running vertical was 31,5 but its now less than that. Im 5'9 ,165 pounds with a max squat of 320 ATG. Bodyfat is around 12 to 13% i think. More info: Some guy who saw me jump, told me i dont really use my stretch reflex when im doing a running vertical with both legs, so it doesnt look that explosive. But i got a pretty solid first step.
Goal is a 35 inch max vert!

Because nothing really worked i wanted to try the JackM split which you can find in the Vertical Jump Bible.
This is how i planned it
Monday
Upper body
Basketball workout

Tuesday: Off

Wednesday
Lower body:
Ankle Jump 4x8
Paused Jump from sitting on a box 4x5
high depth drop 3x5
4x5 jump squat with 20% of max squat
4x5 squat(havent really decide if i do same weight each set or do soemthing else)
thought about doing some paused explosive squats->maybe 3x5 with 40%
RDL 4x6-8
Optional Calves?

Thursday:
Upper body
Basketball workout

Friday:off/optional basketball workout

Saturday: Gameday(not every weekend)

Sunday: Lower Body:
Tuck Jump 4x8
Three step jumps 4x5
low box Depth jumps 3x5
Jump squat 4x5 with 20%
Bulgarian split squat 4x6-8 same weight
Hip trust 4x6-8
optional calves?

Im hoping for some suggestions!!

Best regards

balder

« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 02:36:19 am by balder »

LBSS

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 05:29:02 am »
+2
welcome. my first and overwhelmingly most important suggestion:

MORE JUMPING. you've got three-step jumps one day a week, and "basketball training" might include max effort jumps for all i know (what does it include?). but you're reasonably strong and lean, and according to some guy you're inefficient. the best way to improve that is through practice.

one of the things that ultimately got me over the hump was the T0ddday method:
1. stand under the rim, jump as high as you can
2. move back and do a one-step approach jump as high as you can
3a. if (2) is the same or lower than (3), repeat (2) until that's no longer the case.
3b. if (2) is higher than (3), move back a little more and do a two-step approach jump.
4a. if two step jumps are the same or lower than one, repeat until they're higher.
4b. if two steps are higher than one, move back and do three steps.
5-?. repeat, adding approach steps until you don't get any more height from added steps. i settled right at a four-step approach for DLRVJ.

the point is to make sure every step you taking is adding power to the jump. no wasted movement.

do that in lieu of some of the supplemental jumps, like ankle hops and tuck jumps. those are fine but not in the same league in terms of importance/effectiveness.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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adarqui

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 07:16:49 am »
+1
sup balder! welcome!

Agree with what LBSS said. In addition, just really think of "jumping hard" as a skill in itself, just like sprinting, running, shooting a basketball, dribbling etc. Jumping in general, but more specifically "hard/high jumping", needs to be fairly frequent: 3x/wk seems to be the minimum amount.

One great thing about watching the "natural jumpers" progress from a young age (like Kilganon, Rivera, Dexton) & then also the maybe "less natural" jumpers but still jump obsessed people (Nico, Celi), is simply realizing how often they jump. People who fall in love with jumping and dunking, put in an impressive amount of jumps per week. Many of them are jumping near 6 days a week.

Then you have the strength (lifting) & specific reactive work (drops,pogos,"plyos") components which can help to accelerate the process. Safely improving your core lifts will give you a great ability to activate more muscle fibers & produce more force in your jump, also usually helps prevent injury. Specific reactive work can add some icing on the cake features, ie the stiff leg pogo hops which can give you more "flick" on triple extension - similar to the flick of the wrist in a jump shot giving you more range/control.

So specifically, Wednesday and Saturday seem like your best days for some really hard jumps. These days also follow a rest day, which usually gives you more power if you're doing alot throughout the week. After a good warmup, i'd try and get in some good jumps (progressively more intense, until you're jumping max) on those days, prior to the rest of your work/workouts. I'd also include some jumps on Sunday before the rest of that workout, just less of a focus on max effort, and more of a focus on getting some relaxed but explosive jumps in. If gameday on Saturday is real important, maybe just move those max effort jumps to Sunday. Bottom line, need to try and figure out what schedule works for you, so you can get in 2-3 hard jump sessions per week initially. Over time, you may need to increase that a bit, but initially 2-3 should do, as long as you're getting in other jump movements throughout the week.

Also, you can always do 1 or 2 step max effort jumps instead of full runups. Those are submaximal on your body so they don't tax you as much, but they still help get that skill work in. So stuff like that can precede other sessions if you feel like you have some jumps in you & want to get some extra work in.

also here's the t0ddday method thread: http://www.adarq.org/strength-power-reactivity-speed-discussion/the-t0ddday-method/

my 2 cents.

peace!

adarqui

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 10:39:04 am »
0
Some guy who saw me jump, told me i dont really use my stretch reflex when im doing a running vertical with both legs, so it doesnt look that explosive.

oh also, be careful listening to people who don't know shit. Not saying this dude isn't correct, but it's a common theme for people who don't know shit, about shit, to give people critique and advice. Makes them feel like they know shit.

furthermore, it's almost impossible not to use your "stretch reflex" in a jump, it's just how counter movement jumps, especially with a runup & plant, work. So..  :ninja:

best thing would be to get video if you don't have some footage already.. even then, can be easy to overanalyze it AND analyze incorrectly.

just avoid the traps, is all i'm saying. they are all over the place.

peace

balder

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 02:38:36 pm »
+1
thanks guys appreciate the help!

you are probably right, that i should more do more "real jumping". it's just that i read in the vjb that too much plyo/jump work is detrimental and with my extra basketball training, which means a lot of running and submaximal jumping->defensive drills, games, shooting drills etc, i thought i should not overdo it.

So if i got you guys right, my template is solid(? ;) ), but i should do more "real jumping" like the toddday method instead of the ankle jumps/tuck jumps and add an extra jumping session. I think about adding it in on friday because even though i dont have a game every weekend, it's most of them.

Questions for the toddays method: how do i know when to stop? it says when you dont get higher from the extra step, but it also says if you dont get higher from the extra step try again. Im a little confused. Also how much rest should i get between jumps?

I probably have alot of videos of me jumping, i will try to upload one tomorrow. Maybe it helps.

Again really appreciate you taking the time to help me. Hopefully i can get over the hump with your help!


fast does lie

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 06:01:05 pm »
+1
"jump hard" is definitely a skill in and of itself.... like long jump and high jump....


Confidence, relaxed yet explosive.....

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zd62MxKXp8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zd62MxKXp8</a>
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 06:04:27 pm by fast does lie »
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fast does lie

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 06:11:29 pm »
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Look at lebron's facial expression on the chase down, no grimace, no fatigue, just confidence, focus..... is he jumping hard? of course....

33yrs | 24in SVJ | >45% BF | 227LB | 5'9 | 7'5 reach | 400lb max squat paused | 5'8 wingspan | 26in RVJ

Coming back from 2 years of inactivity!

Goal: Maintain 385-405lb squat while cutting down to 165 LB

ChrisM

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 07:21:57 pm »
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Welcome! Great advice in here and as a hooper myself I must warn you. Vert training and skill work are not always complimentary. Usually they are not in fact. Skills and drills are more cardio/stamina which is good but no marathon runner is bouncy. Theres a fine line. My suggestion, after every bball workout, just go jump for 15 mins or so. Low rim dunks, ME jumps on a 10ft rim, etc. Go til you see a significant reduction in vert then hang it up for the day. When i do this my vert usually goes up 2-3 inches in a couple weeks vs when i only lift and do plyos in the weight room
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LBSS

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2017, 12:01:44 am »
+1
thanks guys appreciate the help!

you are probably right, that i should more do more "real jumping". it's just that i read in the vjb that too much plyo/jump work is detrimental and with my extra basketball training, which means a lot of running and submaximal jumping->defensive drills, games, shooting drills etc, i thought i should not overdo it.

So if i got you guys right, my template is solid(? ;) ), but i should do more "real jumping" like the toddday method instead of the ankle jumps/tuck jumps and add an extra jumping session. I think about adding it in on friday because even though i dont have a game every weekend, it's most of them.

Questions for the toddays method: how do i know when to stop? it says when you dont get higher from the extra step, but it also says if you dont get higher from the extra step try again. Im a little confused. Also how much rest should i get between jumps?

I probably have alot of videos of me jumping, i will try to upload one tomorrow. Maybe it helps.

Again really appreciate you taking the time to help me. Hopefully i can get over the hump with your help!

videos are definitely useful.

good questions.

the template is solid except, as you said, needs more time for actual jumping at the rim and less supplemental jumping. you can use the basketball training time for max jumps, as well. that can actually be a great time, after you get really good and warm from drills, layups, etc., to do some jumps.

on the T0ddday method, check out the link that adarq shared. there's a different description (clearer than the one i wrote in here, actually). basically you want to practice at the number of steps right beyond the number that gives you the highest jump, until the additional step is adding height. so if you get 33" off a two-step approach but 32" off a three-step approach, it's time to practice the three-step approach until each step is adding power and you're hitting 34"+. then and only then can you add a fourth step. i never went beyond a four-step approach, except when goofing around. fifth step didn't help. YMMV.

with respect to when to stop, IME it's best to jump until you start to lose height consistently. so if you're jumping at around 33" for the day, as soon as you start hitting 31" it's time to call it quits. adarq may disagree, given his experience with much higher volume jumping and having a resurgence late in workouts. but it's also worth noting that even when he was in full jumping mode, with no "cardio" work, he was extremely fit. like, hundreds of DB lunges in a row fit. train hard but listen and be gentle to your body, nothing derails training like an injury.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

handstand + backflip + flag

adarqui

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Re: Need help for my template
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 06:51:57 am »
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thanks guys appreciate the help!

you are probably right, that i should more do more "real jumping". it's just that i read in the vjb that too much plyo/jump work is detrimental and with my extra basketball training, which means a lot of running and submaximal jumping->defensive drills, games, shooting drills etc, i thought i should not overdo it.

So if i got you guys right, my template is solid(? ;) ), but i should do more "real jumping" like the toddday method instead of the ankle jumps/tuck jumps and add an extra jumping session. I think about adding it in on friday because even though i dont have a game every weekend, it's most of them.

Questions for the toddays method: how do i know when to stop? it says when you dont get higher from the extra step, but it also says if you dont get higher from the extra step try again. Im a little confused. Also how much rest should i get between jumps?

I probably have alot of videos of me jumping, i will try to upload one tomorrow. Maybe it helps.

Again really appreciate you taking the time to help me. Hopefully i can get over the hump with your help!

videos are definitely useful.

good questions.

the template is solid except, as you said, needs more time for actual jumping at the rim and less supplemental jumping. you can use the basketball training time for max jumps, as well. that can actually be a great time, after you get really good and warm from drills, layups, etc., to do some jumps.

on the T0ddday method, check out the link that adarq shared. there's a different description (clearer than the one i wrote in here, actually). basically you want to practice at the number of steps right beyond the number that gives you the highest jump, until the additional step is adding height. so if you get 33" off a two-step approach but 32" off a three-step approach, it's time to practice the three-step approach until each step is adding power and you're hitting 34"+. then and only then can you add a fourth step. i never went beyond a four-step approach, except when goofing around. fifth step didn't help. YMMV.

nice example, posted it in teh official t0ddday method thread :highfive:

Quote
with respect to when to stop, IME it's best to jump until you start to lose height consistently. so if you're jumping at around 33" for the day, as soon as you start hitting 31" it's time to call it quits. adarq may disagree, given his experience with much higher volume jumping and having a resurgence late in workouts. but it's also worth noting that even when he was in full jumping mode, with no "cardio" work, he was extremely fit. like, hundreds of DB lunges in a row fit. train hard but listen and be gentle to your body, nothing derails training like an injury.

Ya i'm with you on stopping when vert drops off considerably, for the most part. It's probably good on occasion to try and push past that though - more so when you're jumping "ok" and want to pull some better jumps out. If you're jumping through the roof & you drop off, probably best to call it quits there, body already gave you everything, shutting it down when you drop off makes sense, especially from a safety standpoint. That stuff is more of a "feel" & experience thing though. I'm sure I pushed it in some sessions that I shouldn't have, but I am also sure that some of those sessions did alot of good - realizing that I could somehow pull out some serious jumps after being so fatigued, was great for my confidence.

Also ya, being so light & having such a high work capacity, really helped. I remember dunking/jumping pretty much max, for an entire month, literally every day. That was around the peak of my ability: jumping max seemed to have no noticeable wear and tear on my body or CNS, felt as easy as walking. But it took a long time to get to that.

peace!!




thanks guys appreciate the help!

you are probably right, that i should more do more "real jumping". it's just that i read in the vjb that too much plyo/jump work is detrimental and with my extra basketball training, which means a lot of running and submaximal jumping->defensive drills, games, shooting drills etc, i thought i should not overdo it.

So if i got you guys right, my template is solid(? ;) ), but i should do more "real jumping" like the toddday method instead of the ankle jumps/tuck jumps and add an extra jumping session. I think about adding it in on friday because even though i dont have a game every weekend, it's most of them.

Questions for the toddays method: how do i know when to stop? it says when you dont get higher from the extra step, but it also says if you dont get higher from the extra step try again. Im a little confused. Also how much rest should i get between jumps?

I probably have alot of videos of me jumping, i will try to upload one tomorrow. Maybe it helps.

Again really appreciate you taking the time to help me. Hopefully i can get over the hump with your help!



for rest periods between jumps, I like 60-120 seconds. 60 seconds rest is when you're just being very aggressive and trying to land a dunk, not necessarily caring about hitting peak vert, but just trying to crush something and get a ton of attempts in.

90-120 seconds (more so towards 120) would be what I would naturally do before max jump/dunk attempts.

max jump attempts, especially in combination with a lob or dunk attempt, require some decent recovery. So 120 seconds or so should be adequate.

In addition to all of that, just take breaks when you feel you need them, could be after 5 or 10 jumps for example. I'd have a protein + gatorade mix i'd bring to dunk sessions, and sip it during those breaks. Water is fine, but I felt better with a protein+carb mix.