Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Raptor on October 12, 2010, 05:56:02 pm
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OK, I'm probably going to start going to the gym starting with the next week, trying to improve first hypertrophy, then kindly switch into strength work, then more power (~February) and then some plyo work (March) and then just enjoy the results.
Right know the knee is pretty much in the same shape as it was ~9 months ago, but I guess it will allow me to do low bar squats. The problem is - my wrists, elbows and shoulders hurt incredibly and if they do get in that condition, they recover very, very slowly, which means I could possibly be sidetracked for a few weeks before I can squat again.
My plan is something like this:
Workout A1: Squat increase + Straight leg one-leg RDL + Leg curls + Shoulders
Workout B1: BSS + Bench press + Pullups
Workout A2: Squat + Backward lunge + Leg curls + Shoulders
Workout B2: Power Clean + Incline bench press + Chinups
The program will be Wednesday - Friday - Sunday, with the increase in poundages occuring on Wednesday. Odd weeks will be A1 - B1 - A2, even weeks will be A1 - B2 - A2.
In terms of reps involved in the squat, I want to start with 3x8 in the squat for A1 and then use the same weight for A2, but this time go for 4x10. Then increase the weight by 2.5 kg for every A1 workout. For the bench press, I'd do the same but going 3x10 and 4x15. I want some bodybuilding type of training for some time for my upperbody (chest and shoulders).
Anyway, my plan is to go with this and work on stuff, maybe do a few cycles at these rep ranges, and then go with 4x5 and 3x8 instead of the 3x8 and 4x10 for the squat, while for the bench press I'd go with 3x8 and 4x10 from the former 3x10 and 4x15.
For the assistance exercises I'll probably do 2x8. I might play with the rest periods as well, just to make some different adaptations. It's nothing set in stone, but this is the general idea.
In the off days I could do some ab work, med ball core work and ab wheel rollouts as well. Maybe some KB swings if they don't hurt my knees.
If you have any suggestions please shoot...
My goals are to get a 2x squat at least a projected one if not a real one by end of February 2011, if no injuries happen. I'll also take some protein supplements, probably a high % of protein with a low % of carbs, trying to increase muscle mass and take fat off in the spring (that's a very important part that I have ignored in the past). So basically my goal is to squat ~170 projected at a bodyweight of ~85 kg, and then decrease bodyfat and stabilize at ~75 kg (I have plenty of bodyfat right now to lose and with an even greater % if weight gain is desired, a 10 kg loss of fat doesn't seem that dramatic).
I'd probably lose some strength but I feel it's for a good cause.
So, like I said, any ideas would be great. I'd love to jump off two feet but I feel like I can gain a lot in my one-leg jumping as well, thus the focus should be on posterior chain strength.
I have included both hip extension and knee flexion exercises (leg curls) for my hamstrings, with the GHR being out of the discussion.
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Regarding the A2 work-out and those 4 x 10 squats - what would be the purpose of that work-out? 3 x 8 with weekly increases could work well for you though. But that is a lot of volume already for max strength gains. Instead of doing the 4 x 10 squats I would do a high intensity day with more weight than on A1 but lower reps, maybe 3s and increase A2 along with A1. You could utilize the MSEM method on that day two, would be pretty much the same purpose. I would do that as long as it works. B1 could work well as recovery day if you don't go really crazy on the BSS and if you are adapted to the movement. Powercleans would work for now, too, but will later be more difficult to incorporate as recovery. But right now I don't think it will be problematic for you.
Upper body looks good besides that I like overhead press + bench press more than incline bench press + bench press because it (the press) is generally a good movement which involves the whole body more opposed to the incline and is also a little less similar to the bench press. Goals are looking very good to me! With that volume you might be surprised at the end that you did not get that fat after all. So 75 might not even be necessary, but you can evaluate that for yourself once you are there.
Good luck with it!
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You bring up some good points, and thanks for reading all that stuff that I wrote (if you indeed read it all :P).
In terms of the rep range, I kind of want to go crazy on the reps per set for a while and also keeping the weight low. The reason for that is to allow my arms to adapt (since if I go very heavy my elbows get tendinitis or whatever from the low bar position and I'm out). So in that time I'll work on flexibility as well while keeping the weight on the bar "low" (think 80-100 kg).
Then, after I finish a few cycles of 3x8 and 4x10, I'll go with 4x5 and 3x8, so more weight and intensity, less volume. Kind of like transitioning into strength from hypertrophy. And then it's probably going to be pure strength.
Hopefully my health will allow me to do this.
Oh and yeah, I'll do bench press and overhead press, makes more sense. And it's going to be interesting in terms of recovery... I guess I just have to deal with that as I progress, and make whatever adjustments I see fit.
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will check this out tmw, forgot to read it ! its in my todo list tab tho ;)
pc
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What? You FORGOT?
What could be more important than this??? TAKE YOUR WORDS BACK OR ELSE!
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@Raptor: I had the same thing for a while with the low-bar squats, I even logged it way back in my journal. Although I had decent technique my elbows did hurt doing heavy weights. The same happened to some people on Mark Rippetoe's board. Adjusting the grip width has helped in all those cases as far as I know - including myself. I have had problems for weeks with this and taking a slightly wider grip made a small but noticeable difference until the pain subsided completely after a few work-outs. I have never had any elbow problems with squats again after that, even when going max. So you might want to give that a try!
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Yes but I can smash my palms in the supports if I somehow forgot where they are or if I cramp and need to get the bar on the supports immediately. I will try, in the meantime I need to work with shoulder dislocations and stretches, and use a lower weight. Eventually, I could put my palms higher and not really keep them on the bar but a bit over it.
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I'm going to the gym this Sunday to start the "thing"... hopefully I can do well.
I'll start with a 80 kg bar this first workout.
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As I felt so bad the last time I went to the gym, and spent a lot of time in the gym, I'm thinking of going more often and keeping the sessions shorter.
I might also try this: http://www.adarq.org/forum/performance-training-blog/the-ratio-technique/
I think I can organize stuff so that I do like 3 workouts of hypertrophy oriented squats (say, 3x8), then go with 3x5 and then go with MSEM and reset the cycle.
I want to write here my program in this fashion, since I really want to go this way with more frequency, better intensity, go home. After I'm done eating I'll start writing.
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OK, so I want to go with this now:
Sunday: Squat + One-leg RDL++Leg curls (++ = superset)
Monday: Bench press + Triceps pulldowns + Chinups
Tuesday: Power clean/Jump squat (low volumes) + BSS + Cable pulls
Wednesday: Overhead press + Lateral++Front shoulder raises + Pullups
Thursday: Squat + Lunge++Leg curls
Friday and Saturday rest. I'll do ab work and calf work everyday.
I'll also go with adarqui's http://www.adarq.org/forum/performance-training-blog/the-ratio-technique/ because it sounds very very nice. I'll use it for the squat and for the bench press.
So basically my first squat cycle will be:
80x3x8/82.5x3x8/85x3x8/95x3x5/105x2x3 MSEM and then continue from 85 kg
For the bench press it will be:
40x3x8/42.5x3x8/45x3x8/50x3x5/55x2x3 MSEM and then continue from 45 kg
If you have and further ideas I thank you in advance and await your input.
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I think what you write might be time efficient - for a late intermediate to advanced lifter. You are far from that and you should not over complicate things. There is really no need for this kind of complex programming where you have a hypertrophy stage, a strength stage and a maximum intensity stage. That would typically be useful for an advanced guy, who might want to gradually decrease volume but increase intensity, but certainly not for you. You should just worry about getting your 5 rm up and you will experience lots of hypertrophy and lots of maximal strength gains in a shorter period of time than what you are shooting for now.
That's my take on it.
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Well I'm definitely going to have a very high % of work towards the hypertrophy side, but as a short stim/recovery, one week in 4 is going to be a strength & stim & recovery week, only to return to hypertrophy again.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, changes the stimuli a bit, gives a moment to recover better and off we go with hypertrophy again.
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Well I'm definitely going to have a very high % of work towards the hypertrophy side, but as a short stim/recovery, one week in 4 is going to be a strength & stim & recovery week, only to return to hypertrophy again.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, changes the stimuli a bit, gives a moment to recover better and off we go with hypertrophy again.
It's not wrong, it's just not time efficient and it also neglects the fact that plenty of hypertrophy is going to occur in lower rep ranges than 8s, too and that one can recover faster with less volume and still have enough hypertrophy to get stronger...
If you like your setup as it is, go for it. It might work. I just don't like that it is unnecessary complicated for the simple goal of getting stronger (and getting stronger is your goal, not hypertrophy, right?).
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FWIW, I agree with steven-miller. Of course, it's a bit of pot calling the kettle black as my tendency is also to overcomplicate things. But it's always easier to tell someone else the right thing to do and in this case, I think you're probably better off with a simpler scheme. Why not just do Starting Strength or something, plus assistance for calves, arms and core? Or stronglifts 5x5? If you're eating right, you should grow plenty and gain a lot of strength on that.
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So you guys are suggesting sets of 5 instead of sets of 8?
I'll consider that. I'll work for a while with the what I have planned for now, and observing what is going on, I might adjust it. I have like 4-5 months of strength training planned if no injuries occur, so that's plenty of time to change stuff it I need to.
Do you really think a 3x5 is enough stimuli for good hypertrophy to occur (if the food intake is right)? I'm more into hypertrophy than strength as my target right now, I want to switch to a more strength-focused rep range later (4-6).
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So you guys are suggesting sets of 5 instead of sets of 8?
I'll consider that. I'll work for a while with the what I have planned for now, and observing what is going on, I might adjust it. I have like 4-5 months of strength training planned if no injuries occur, so that's plenty of time to change stuff it I need to.
Do you really think a 3x5 is enough stimuli for good hypertrophy to occur (if the food intake is right)? I'm more into hypertrophy than strength as my target right now, I want to switch to a more strength-focused rep range later (4-6).
See, that type of periodization is what I don't understand for someone with your levels of strength. It is unnecessary complicated for a beginner- intermediate, especially in face of the fact that hypertrophy and strength go hand in hand. I never in my whole training life did more than 5 reps as a work set and I have thigh circumferences somewhat over 24". Regardless of hypertrophy or strength as a primary goal - mid to long term you are better off with 5s at this point in time. You can use higher volume for hypertrophy once you manage appreciable weights IMO. That is if you are into bodybuilding now.
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Yeah but your genetic is much better than mine in terms of strength gains. You increase your squat by 100 lbs in 2 days and say it's "normal stuff". So probably, regardless what you'd do, you'd still gain much faster than me.
I don't know, 3x5 sound like way too low of a volume, only 15 reps, for someone that doesn't play or do anything else in this period of time except lifting. 5x5 could be pretty good though.
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You do what you want to do. But regarding my progress being something extraordinary - It certainly is not. Several months ago I started a thread on startingstrength.com asking for those who finished SS the way it is supposed to be done (utilizing 3 x 5 for squats, eating enough etc.) to post their final numbers. If you look at the answers in that thread and exclude those who got injured for some reasons (or have been injured already when they started the program using it as "rehab") you are getting a pretty consistent picture of guys finishing the linear progression typically between 300 lbs and > 400 lbs for sets of 5.
Rippetoe himself says that 325 lbs for 3 x 5 after 6 months is typical for a young male that started as a complete novice, meaning that lay-offs, small injuries, resets, canceled work-outs due to other obligations are already calculated in. So under optimal conditions more is possible. I finished at 402 lbs x 5 x 3 - a little higher than Rippetoe's norm - but if you take into account the correct reference population (male, 5'10, early 20s, competitive athlete in a non-weightlifting sport) this is probably rather usual. In that thread I talked about there were several guys who got a lot stronger than me purely on 3 x 5 squats 3 times per week. Here is the link: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=17900
Again, you do what you like to do and 5 x 5 will probably work fine if you do that once a week and squat at least another time during the week with a different volume and intensity (lower volume for sure, but I am not sure what intensity would work best in your scenario). But that approach is not as efficient and I doubt that you will get more hypertrophy this way. That is because hypertrophy follows strength and you will get stronger faster with 3 x 5 until you are not a novice anymore. Period.
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Yeah but your genetic is much better than mine in terms of strength gains. You increase your squat by 100 lbs in 2 days and say it's "normal stuff". So probably, regardless what you'd do, you'd still gain much faster than me.
I don't know, 3x5 sound like way too low of a volume, only 15 reps, for someone that doesn't play or do anything else in this period of time except lifting. 5x5 could be pretty good though.
3x5 is not too low a volume to start out with for the major exercises. If you're eating enough calories and getting enough protein, you'll grow on that for sure. But again, what I think we're both saying is that you don't need to think so hard. Pick a rep range (3x5 or 5x5 or 3x8 or whatever you want) and a couple of major exercises and just progress on those. For example:
Workout A
squat 3x5
dead lift 1x5
bench 3x5
row 3x8
weighted crunch 3x15
Workout B
power clean 3x5
squat 3x5
BSS 3x10/each
overhead press 3x5
chin up 3x8
hanging leg raise 3x15
ABABABABABABABABABABABABABABABABAB until you stop progressing. If you want to do some assistance (e.g. calves or arms), just throw on a couple sets of 12 reps at the end, or even one set of 15. If you want to keep doing some jumps/sprints/plyos, throw them in after your warm up and before the lifts, but keep volume and relative intensity low (no depth jumps).
EDIT: Added power cleans.
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He will need the powercleans...
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Well in that layout, the squats are followed by deadlifts and the powercleans are followed by squats AND BSS. That's not good in my eyes at all.
Back when I was doing a modified starting strength I was using this:
squat + bench + reverse lunge + pullups/chinups A1
BSS + deadlift/powerclean + overhead press + pullups/chinups B1/B2
squat + incline + one-leg RDL + pullups/chinups A2
The thing is - I kind of want to go to the gym 5 days a week... keep the workouts short and intense. I also want to use 3x8 primarily at this point in time, and then maybe after a month or so of 3x8 go to 5 rep range schemes. But as of now I'm using 3x8 for the squat and 4x10 for the bench. It builds mental strength and confidence and when I switch back to lower reps I can go better with lower reps. The point of the potentiation&rest week is exactly that. I don't feel I'm overcomplicating anything at all.
I'm also not going to give up on 1-leg RDLs because I love them and they work my glutes so so well, and an unilateral lift is absolutely needed (I want to do unilateral stuff) in each of my squat sessions.
So right now I'm going with squat 3x8 + unilateral hip dominated exercise++leg curls (supersetted with leg curls) and an upperbody lift (usually back stuff and/or shoulders since I have 5 year old girl shoulder strength).
So:
Squat + One-leg RDL++leg curls A1
Squat + Lunge++leg curls A2
For upperbody:
Bench + Triceps pulldowns/dips + back stuff&shoulders B1 and B2 (2x a week bench press)
Optional 5th workout (C):
Jumpsquat/powerclean + BSS + overhead press
So a week is: A1 - B1 - rest - A2 - B2 - C - rest
Again, this only for a month or so. After this I'll probably go more conservative and go with more of a starting strength approach like the one I layed out at the top of this post.
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will check this out tmw, forgot to read it ! its in my todo list tab tho ;)
pc
Um... right...