Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: mvp805 on April 04, 2011, 07:40:21 pm
-
I use to do plyo days separate from strength training days
I read, that many say if you were to do both on the same day, to do plyos first before strength
What about complex training?
That would be strength first then plyos after, and many do complex training. Squat / depth jumps
Why is complex training ok, but not do 3 sets of squats first, then 3 sets of plyos after?
-
I did complex training. I used MSEM + jump squats, 3 rep squats + sprints, MSEM + depth jumps etc.
-
Don't get two things confused (and Raptor's post did not exactly help here). There is strength training and there is the usage of techniques that are supposed to be stimulating your nervous system (STIM) so that power output can increase.
Doing 3 sets of squats with high intensity as well as volume (say >3 reps) and doing plyos after is a terrible idea. Doing plyos first would be better. Doing 5 heavy squat singles and continue with jumps or something similar is possible. Whether this would actually potentiate your explosive movements in the same session I tend to doubt, but it is at least not terribly stupid (like the first example) and it might work for a certain population of athletes. The latter is what you call complex training.
-
I like Barry Ross's principal.
• Deadlift or Squat every session, 2-3 sets of 2-5 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, TIMED
• Plyometrics at the end of each set, within 1 minute of set completion
• The focus is on delivering maximum strength in minimum time.
• Usually depth jumps from varying heights but occasionally used stand triple jump or long jump, generally 6 jumps or less.
-
I like Barry Ross's principal.
• Deadlift or Squat every session, 2-3 sets of 2-5 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, TIMED
• Plyometrics at the end of each set, within 1 minute of set completion
• The focus is on delivering maximum strength in minimum time.
• Usually depth jumps from varying heights but occasionally used stand triple jump or long jump, generally 6 jumps or less.
eek, there's a time and place for that stuff, but every session? sounds like a great way to screw yourself up.. depth jumps themselves are risky, but after heavy lifting -> very risky, if the muscles are fatigued at all, you can greatly increase the risk of injury to the joint surface & tendons.. if someone is going to depth jump/bound after lifting, they better have a ton of experience and be in excellent shape/100% healthy/well versed in those exercises.
Don't get two things confused (and Raptor's post did not exactly help here). There is strength training and there is the usage of techniques that are supposed to be stimulating your nervous system (STIM) so that power output can increase.
Doing 3 sets of squats with high intensity as well as volume (say >3 reps) and doing plyos after is a terrible idea. Doing plyos first would be better. Doing 5 heavy squat singles and continue with jumps or something similar is possible. Whether this would actually potentiate your explosive movements in the same session I tend to doubt, but it is at least not terribly stupid (like the first example) and it might work for a certain population of athletes. The latter is what you call complex training.
x2
plyos before strength training is fine, because one of the key concepts of true plyo/explosive work is to not train through fatigue + use optimal rest intervals between sets (complete recovery).. i've never had a problem with incorporating plyo/reactive/explosive work prior to squatting, with myself or people i've trained, in fact it usually helps the lifts that follow.
as for complex training, you really have to know what you're doing before you go that route.. for beginners and less experienced intermediate's, it's a horrible idea.. for advanced athletes it can be used effectively.. look at the verkhoshansky blog in performance blog section to see what some true complex training looks like.. search that blog article/notes for "Complex Method" or "Stim Method" etc.
if you at all lack the preparedness to perform ballistic/explosive work following heavy lifting, consider tendonitis an issue that will occur very shortly after incorporating that style of training.
so if you do plyo/ballistic/explosive work before lifting, just make sure you recovery optimally between sets, and don't train until your legs are jello, quantity over quality, then transition right into your heavy resistance training.
pc
-
I agree with adarqui and co. Do plyos before strength as a rule.
If you have to do them after strength don't do them after ME strength lifts that are slow or grinding for over 3 reps. Your cns is trashed by that kind of lifting. Plyos after strength works ok for me only if I was moving the bar fast and explosively for low reps.
-
eek, there's a time and place for that stuff, but every session? sounds like a great way to screw yourself up.. depth jumps themselves are risky, but after heavy lifting -> very risky, if the muscles are fatigued at all, you can greatly increase the risk of injury to the joint surface & tendons.. if someone is going to depth jump/bound after lifting, they better have a ton of experience and be in excellent shape/100% healthy/well versed in those exercises.
I have used Ross's method for quite sometime (injury free), only I have changed it up a little. Instead of depth jumps I use the burnouts plyo from the Air alert program after each set of deads.
What you may find (I find it all the time) is that your super explosive performing the burnouts after each set of deads as opposed to prior, hence maximum strength (deadlifting)/minimum time (burnouts).
I perform depth jumps in a different workout.
-
eek, there's a time and place for that stuff, but every session? sounds like a great way to screw yourself up.. depth jumps themselves are risky, but after heavy lifting -> very risky, if the muscles are fatigued at all, you can greatly increase the risk of injury to the joint surface & tendons.. if someone is going to depth jump/bound after lifting, they better have a ton of experience and be in excellent shape/100% healthy/well versed in those exercises.
I have used Ross's method for quite sometime (injury free), only I have changed it up a little. Instead of depth jumps I use the burnouts plyo from the Air alert program after each set of deads.
What you may find (I find it all the time) is that your super explosive performing the burnouts after each set of deads as opposed to prior, hence maximum strength (deadlifting)/minimum time (burnouts).
burnouts aren't even close to the intensity that depth jumps/bounds are though.. big difference.. true plyos after lifting can be very dangerous, really need to know what you're doing.. to peform burnouts/submax reactive drills after lifting is much less risky, but that's not even close to the intensity of real max effort plyo work.
-
The Barry Ross system for training is minimalist to the extreme and has a few interesting points to it. I think when I read the book he talked about never doing more than 10 total reps of the deadlift per session and also to drop the bar after each rep (no eccentric) to reduce muscle soreness. He also talked about doing zero warm up sets and just getting straight into the heavy lifting which I thought was a bit dangerous.
Back to the topic at hand whether or not you do strength work after plyos or before will depend on a bunch of factors including the focus of your current training block, and also the intensity and volume of each. Both of the last two things are easily adjusted to make the program more suitable and safe in achieving the desired goal.
-
On the topic of strenght before plyo, PAP, or complex training, your mileage may vary. There has been an obsession in the research community the last few years for all things post activation potentiation and complex. Every loading parameter and exercise you could think of has been utilized, all with varying degrees of effectiveness. The general conclusion poring over most of the research is out of any particular group of people only about 50% of people will respond favorably to MOST exercises and parameters set up in this fashion. There are a few parameters tested where only 15 or 20% of pepole will respond, but they tend to do so VERY well. But anyway, the most common strength parameter that worked for MOST people was an ~85% squat for 3-5 reps, rest 3 minutes then do VJ. A loaded dynamic warmup followed by some loaded jumps (10% bodyweight) worked extremely well. Jump squats, cleans, etc. were also variably effective. There is no universal magic bullet though. Best thing to do is experiment and see what happens.
Personally I hate complex training with strength lifts although I do like it for some strength speed lifts..jumps squat complexed with regular jump or hang snatch complexed with a plyo. For strenght lifts the only time I'd use it is in a corrective sense where you're trying to get a particular muscle firing better. I think this is one area where shorter Isos may have some utility as they can temporarily increase neural drive to a working muscle without doing much else as far as accumulation of metabolic waste. For example, do a set of Iso glute and hip flexor contractions before sprints.
-
I think overdoing on the isos can mess up your proprioceptive awareness if you do them before dynamic things (like playing your sports).
That's also static stretching shouldn't really be done. I for one, whenever I do static stretching, I'm not actually relaxing but staying very stiff and contracted to be able to maintain that position. If I were to relax my body would move/limbs move/lose the stretch. So that's basically an iso that messes up with your proprioceptive awareness.
-
Moscow bench press champion Alexey Moiseyev refers to this static/dynamic method as ‘a powerlifter’s secret weapon’ and promises, “Application of a combination of dynamic exercises with isometrics will enable you to reach maximal results in your lifts.”
-
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/complex.htm < About complex training
-
Moscow bench press champion Alexey Moiseyev refers to this static/dynamic method as ‘a powerlifter’s secret weapon’ and promises, “Application of a combination of dynamic exercises with isometrics will enable you to reach maximal results in your lifts.”
the keyword is "combo".. most people who get obsessed with isos start utilizing them entirely, because "regular lifts promote deceleration" and all of that retarded bullshit.
-
the keyword is "combo".. most people who get obsessed with isos start utilizing them entirely, because "regular lifts promote deceleration" and all of that retarded bullshit.
4 sho.
All this ISO stuff I have been barking on about has to include so form of dynamic work. Isometric work, in and of itself, will not transfer well to dynamic work. You need to 'teach' the body to utilize the new isometric strength dynamically.
Soviet research, dating back to the sixties of the 20th century, points out that isometric training coming before dynamic work may increase its effectiveness by up to 20%. This is called the "immediate after effect" of isometric training. Use of isometric holding exercises and dynamic repetitions are the way forward. When the reverse sequence of training was tested (dynamic work preceding isometric work), results actually deteriorated. According to Mel Siff's "Supertraining", the after effect occurs immediately after the preliminary isometric tension. Strength continues to increase and peaks between the 10th to 20th minute.
-
The static dynamic method applied literally is more for weighted lifts: For example, before a maximum bench press unrack a 120% 1rm load and hold it at lockout for a few seconds. Before a maximum hang clean or snatch take a heavy weight and do a set of shrugs. I always had my best snatch and cleans doing that by a wide margin, but it doesn't work for everyone. It'll work for squats too but you gotta be careful because the weight on the full range set will feel extremely light and there's a natural tendency to lose tightness.
For dynamic bodyweight movements I'd use isolation exercises with relatively light weight for very short periods just to get certain muscle groups fired up better. For sprints something like lightly loaded reverse hyper hold for 7-10 seconds or iso extension iso hold followed by a set of short sprints a few minutes later. Same for bodweight hip flexor holds.
-
What about a side plank? I always do that when I warm up for dunks... kind of stay in a "star" pose laterally (with the non-working arm and leg elevated) for about 20 seconds and I can feel my glutes come alive after that.
-
The static dynamic method applied literally is more for weighted lifts: For example, before a maximum bench press unrack a 120% 1rm load and hold it at lockout for a few seconds. Before a maximum hang clean or snatch take a heavy weight and do a set of shrugs. I always had my best snatch and cleans doing that by a wide margin, but it doesn't work for everyone. It'll work for squats too but you gotta be careful because the weight on the full range set will feel extremely light and there's a natural tendency to lose tightness.
For dynamic bodyweight movements I'd use isolation exercises with relatively light weight for very short periods just to get certain muscle groups fired up better. For sprints something like lightly loaded reverse hyper hold for 7-10 seconds or iso extension iso hold followed by a set of short sprints a few minutes later. Same for bodweight hip flexor holds.
ya i like half squat before sprints too.. always feel really good when i squat before sprinting.. it really shows in my current routine, since i'm doing multiple sessions per day usually.. if first session is squat, and then second session is sprint + squat, sprints feel so much better in that second session because of the stim i carry from the first.
if i had a back ext i'd definitely utilize iso-extension more, as a session before sprinting/jumping.. also, i actually love how i feel when i high rep squat in an early session and jump/sprint at night.. the only trick to that is, i can't really rest much between reps during the high rep squat, i just have to bang them out real quick, fatigue, and end the session.. if i stay strict with that, jumping feels great later that night.
the only thing to make my quads sore in the last ~6 months have been this 225 x 45 pin squat set i did, quads got WRECKED.. love it, they won't get wrecked like that again, but that's a good sign for quad-nation.
What about a side plank? I always do that when I warm up for dunks... kind of stay in a "star" pose laterally (with the non-working arm and leg elevated) for about 20 seconds and I can feel my glutes come alive after that.
single leg side plank? those are damn tough for glute-med/tfl.. i used to be able to do them so easy, havn't done them in a long time, last time i tried, really sucked at them, but that was a while ago.
prone rev hyper (bodyweight) makes me feel real good when jumping too.. and i'm liking these leg-extension TKE's too.. it's helped to get my VMO firing properly, very fast.. i had a major firing issue over the last few weeks, but after 2-3 tke-iso sessions, contracting maximally, seems to be firing almost normal.
pC
-
What about a side plank? I always do that when I warm up for dunks... kind of stay in a "star" pose laterally (with the non-working arm and leg elevated) for about 20 seconds and I can feel my glutes come alive after that.
single leg side plank? those are damn tough for glute-med/tfl.. i used to be able to do them so easy, havn't done them in a long time, last time i tried, really sucked at them, but that was a while ago.
prone rev hyper (bodyweight) makes me feel real good when jumping too.. and i'm liking these leg-extension TKE's too.. it's helped to get my VMO firing properly, very fast.. i had a major firing issue over the last few weeks, but after 2-3 tke-iso sessions, contracting maximally, seems to be firing almost normal.
pC
Yeah the single leg side planks. I'm pretty good at them, I think I MIGHT be able to hold one for one minute. I usually hold it for 30 s and it's pretty hard.
How do you do iso tkes?
-
What about a side plank? I always do that when I warm up for dunks... kind of stay in a "star" pose laterally (with the non-working arm and leg elevated) for about 20 seconds and I can feel my glutes come alive after that.
single leg side plank? those are damn tough for glute-med/tfl.. i used to be able to do them so easy, havn't done them in a long time, last time i tried, really sucked at them, but that was a while ago.
prone rev hyper (bodyweight) makes me feel real good when jumping too.. and i'm liking these leg-extension TKE's too.. it's helped to get my VMO firing properly, very fast.. i had a major firing issue over the last few weeks, but after 2-3 tke-iso sessions, contracting maximally, seems to be firing almost normal.
pC
Yeah the single leg side planks. I'm pretty good at them, I think I MIGHT be able to hold one for one minute. I usually hold it for 30 s and it's pretty hard.
cool ya, that's a great exercise
How do you do iso tkes?
just sit on a bed, lean back, put my hands on the bed, and extend my knees very hard.. really focus on firing vmo, hold it for time.. try to minimize any relaxing of the muscle etc.. try to go around 1-3 minutes, ~3 sets or so.. then go walk around, should feel really good.. just got to be careful with it though, even though it gets vmo firing better, it can put some stress on ham tendons or the knee in general.. so far i've felt great from it though.
pc
-
Haha, I just did one set of ~1:30 minutes... it really feels... I don't know... it feels like I can squat 200 kg. I mean, sudden strength. I should do this stuff, especially as I never get my VMOs to fire no matter what I do.
Maybe I should try this stuff in the gym using the leg extensions machine and the lowest possible weight (5 kg or whatever).
PS. As I get tired, I can feel the VMO is half of my left quad, but for the right quad, I feel like the VMO is 1/10 of the quad mass.
Man that right VMO sucks like you can't believe... so small and weird, no wonder my right knee has problems.
-
Haha, I just did one set of ~1:30 minutes... it really feels... I don't know... it feels like I can squat 200 kg. I mean, sudden strength. I should do this stuff, especially as I never get my VMOs to fire no matter what I do.
yup, it'll help.. and ya legs feel amazing after doing it.
Maybe I should try this stuff in the gym using the leg extensions machine and the lowest possible weight (5 kg or whatever).
nah, if you use leg extension in gym, rep out last 15 deg of extension.. so, put it on like 20-30 lb at first, and, go down slow, then extend COMPLETELY, working on firing vmo really hard.. rep it out for 20-30 reps.
if you do the weightless one, just hold it for time and focus on firing the vmo while in complete extension.
PS. As I get tired, I can feel the VMO is half of my left quad, but for the right quad, I feel like the VMO is 1/10 of the quad mass.
Man that right VMO sucks like you can't believe... so small and weird, no wonder my right knee has problems.
yup............. same thing for leonel, his weaker knee had underdeveloped vmo.. tke's are pretty important, vmo really protects the knee from so many patella issues.
glad you liked the exercise, incorporate it now, and stay consistent with it.
pC!
-
Well yeah, you better believe I will! Any more ideas on how to develop the VMO without putting too much strain on the knee itself? Because probably 1/4 squats are great for that, but, you know, they kind of put pressure on the knee. Except maybe if I go high rep with a low weight. Say 1/4 high bar squats with 50 kg.
-
That's more of a hip flexor iso
-
Well yeah, you better believe I will! Any more ideas on how to develop the VMO without putting too much strain on the knee itself? Because probably 1/4 squats are great for that, but, you know, they kind of put pressure on the knee. Except maybe if I go high rep with a low weight. Say 1/4 high bar squats with 50 kg.
well, 1/4th squats could actually shut down the vmo, when the weight gets real heavy.. if VL takes over to extend, you'll have problems.. and most people aren't completely locking out their knees with such heavy weight on their backs.. so sure it could develop the vmo, but, firing issues can occur, that's why tke's are so important.
as for developing vmo, high rep half squatting nails mine.. sure you could develop it just the same deep etc.. but high reps really gets my vmo's sore at times, nothing else really does.. for developing vmo hypertrophy wise, same principle applies, progressive overload with full or half squats.. the more load you add to the bar over time, the more it'll grow
i love leg extension tke repouts and this non-loaded tke iso for time, for activation issues.. it'll cause some growth initially, but more importantly, it'll get vmo stronger/firing better, if that happens, jumps/squat etc should improve, which will increase potential for mass gain.
pC
Do iso tkes do anything for the quadriceps tendon?, or is it just for the VMO muscle?.
Also, is this how you perform them adarqui?.
(http://www.alkavadlo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Untitled-0-00-37-22.jpg)
nah that would tire out quads/illiopsoas/abs more before tiring out vmo.. for what im talking about, just picture a leg extension, without any machine, so sitting down on a bed, extending knees close to maximally, and maintaining that for time.
peace
-
nah that would tire out quads/illiopsoas/abs more before tiring out vmo.. for what im talking about, just picture a leg extension, without any machine, so sitting down on a bed, extending knees close to maximally, and maintaining that for time.
It's just that you said: sit on a bed, lean back, put my hands on the bed, and extend my knees very hard.
When you talk about leaning back, are you talking about laying down on the bed?. or just sat in an upright seating position?.
-
nah that would tire out quads/illiopsoas/abs more before tiring out vmo.. for what im talking about, just picture a leg extension, without any machine, so sitting down on a bed, extending knees close to maximally, and maintaining that for time.
It's just that you said: sit on a bed, lean back, put my hands on the bed, and extend my knees very hard.
When you talk about leaning back, are you talking about laying down on the bed?. or just sat in an upright seating position?.
right, leaning back but still sitting up.. just a slight lean backwards with hands bracing on bed.. too much lean forward seems to hit my hip flexors too hard.
pc
-
as for the tke unloaded iso 'on bed', i do them sitting up also, like im doing right now as i forum.. so ya, whatever, lock em out "maximally" for time :F
-
as for the tke unloaded iso 'on bed', i do them sitting up also, like im doing right now as i forum.. so ya, whatever, lock em out "maximally" for time :F
What about progressive overload?, such as ankle weights?.
Any benefit?, or detrimental?.
-
as for the tke unloaded iso 'on bed', i do them sitting up also, like im doing right now as i forum.. so ya, whatever, lock em out "maximally" for time :F
What about progressive overload?, such as ankle weights?.
Any benefit?, or detrimental?.
if you were going to overload the leg-ext-tke-iso, i'd do it in a leg extension eventually.. ankle weights could be a small build up. no-extra weight works fine though in terms of 'activation/firing patterns'.. like i said earlier, i personally would rep out with leg ext tke, and stay unloaded for the leg ext tke ISO.. that's personal preference AND how I think it should be done.. if you are going to add load to the leg ext tke ISO, i'd make sure you do the same for some kind of hip extension iso (iso extension stim style, or prone rev hyper etc)
pc
-
if you were going to overload the leg-ext-tke-iso, i'd do it in a leg extension eventually.. ankle weights could be a small build up. no-extra weight works fine though in terms of 'activation/firing patterns'.. like i said earlier, i personally would rep out with leg ext tke, and stay unloaded for the leg ext tke ISO.. that's personal preference AND how I think it should be done.. if you are going to add load to the leg ext tke ISO, i'd make sure you do the same for some kind of hip extension iso (iso extension stim style, or prone rev hyper etc)
On the leg ext tke ISO w/ load, What difference is there between stopping at 45° degrees (knees bent), as opposed to going to lockout (90° degree's).
Any?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaCFA86DqCY
-
The static dynamic method applied literally is more for weighted lifts: For example, before a maximum bench press unrack a 120% 1rm load and hold it at lockout for a few seconds. Before a maximum hang clean or snatch take a heavy weight and do a set of shrugs. I always had my best snatch and cleans doing that by a wide margin, but it doesn't work for everyone. It'll work for squats too but you gotta be careful because the weight on the full range set will feel extremely light and there's a natural tendency to lose tightness.
For dynamic bodyweight movements I'd use isolation exercises with relatively light weight for very short periods just to get certain muscle groups fired up better. For sprints something like lightly loaded reverse hyper hold for 7-10 seconds or iso extension iso hold followed by a set of short sprints a few minutes later. Same for bodweight hip flexor holds.
I got my hang clean up 45 lbs doing something very similar in college, I used a high pull from the hang with 50lbs of chains added, (have to hang the chains attached to collar so there is loading/deload throughout the whole rom and not by small chains). I would do a set of 3 with the chains, rest 2 minutes, then take the chains off and hit pr after pr for a good period of time. Ive noticed that this potentiation method works extremely well with more dynamic lifts, where the body has a limited amount of time to produce force. Jump squats with band tension, then removing the band and repeating the set almost always gives a pr for everyone on the the tendo for height and speed.
-
The static dynamic method applied literally is more for weighted lifts: For example, before a maximum bench press unrack a 120% 1rm load and hold it at lockout for a few seconds. Before a maximum hang clean or snatch take a heavy weight and do a set of shrugs. I always had my best snatch and cleans doing that by a wide margin, but it doesn't work for everyone. It'll work for squats too but you gotta be careful because the weight on the full range set will feel extremely light and there's a natural tendency to lose tightness.
For dynamic bodyweight movements I'd use isolation exercises with relatively light weight for very short periods just to get certain muscle groups fired up better. For sprints something like lightly loaded reverse hyper hold for 7-10 seconds or iso extension iso hold followed by a set of short sprints a few minutes later. Same for bodweight hip flexor holds.
I got my hang clean up 45 lbs doing something very similar in college, I used a high pull from the hang with 50lbs of chains added, (have to hang the chains attached to collar so there is loading/deload throughout the whole rom and not by small chains). I would do a set of 3 with the chains, rest 2 minutes, then take the chains off and hit pr after pr for a good period of time. Ive noticed that this potentiation method works extremely well with more dynamic lifts, where the body has a limited amount of time to produce force. Jump squats with band tension, then removing the band and repeating the set almost always gives a pr for everyone on the the tendo for height and speed.
I will remember that snippet of information very well and try it when I need it. My powerclean could need 45 lbs for sure :)