Author Topic: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.  (Read 26422 times)

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adarqui

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Don't forget whose article this is. Charles Poliquin has trained many Olympic medalists, including a gold medalist sprinter and a gold medalist long jumper.

Still though, he claims that biomechanists estimated the numbers he's providing (40% for glutes, 25% for hamstrings, 5% for quads, 5% for calves, the shoulder girdle 15%, and dunno where the other 10% went). I'd like to see these studies, but the closest thing I can find to this would be that the hip extensors contribute more to a horizontal jump than a vertical jump.

"5% quads" makes me cringe, doesn't matter how many olympic athletes he's trained.. ;/

lamp

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charles poliquin is notorious for over-exaggerating and even making up facts.
However, there is a lot of good stuff buried within the trash...you just have to have enough knowledge to be able to pick and choose for yourself

Is he a legendary coach?  Yes

Should you believe everything he writes?  No

$ick3nin.vend3tta

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it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.

There was an interesting test I once read & it corresponds to guys I mentioned who lift light (Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc). Two groups were divided to perform squats. One group trained at a slow rate, and the other at a fast rate. The fast group took 2 seconds to perform each repetition, 1 second down and 1 second up. The slow group took 3x as long. Both groups were tested in their before and after abilities for broad jumping and the strength of the individual muscles of the legs. The fast group increased their power output in their hips and ankles more so than the slow group, and more significant was the improvement in fast group's broad jumping performance. The slower group did gain more overall strength, but the increase in power output was higher overall in the fast group.

Guys like Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc train primarily for power NOT mass or incredible strength.

What I'm trying to say is, would you better off going 1 second down and 1 second up (increased power output at the hips) as opposed to going "semi" heavy/heavy (more strength incremental based) lifts to increase your VJ?. So going to heavy seems to decrease your power output when squatting.

It's like when you want to increase the speed of your punches by throwing out weight plates. You have to use a weight that offers resistance but at the same time the speed factor is majorly important. You can't go too heavy because you bury the speed element (power).



« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 09:29:19 am by $ick3nin.vend3tta »

Raptor

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Well firstly, when you build strength (mass, not power) you're still trying to go as fast as possible. Secondly, more mass/pure strength without power increases is just a matter of potential. You increase your potential by increasing your maximal strength. Then you can tweak the gained strength to become more powerful. That's pretty much the basis of cycles anyway.

Nightfly

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Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F

Epic post

Nightfly

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yup, sorry, misunderstood your initial comment.

ya it pisses me off that these guys like t-dub/YH etc are 'content'... so much potential naturally, i'd love to see them push their limits to the extreme.


This would happen if they would do that... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZG6-1WaxhY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZG6-1WaxhY</a>

BMully

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shit since quads are only 5% why the fuck do I train them? they are just weighing me down...


Raptor

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Yeah. CUT THEM OFF!

BMully

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Yeah. CUT THEM OFF!

That's what I was thinking....didn't want to really say it though.

I stopped reading that article after the quads comment, so I don't know what it says is important to jumping.


Raptor

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I remember DeFranco saying the best jumpers had the best hamstrings in his tests, and the best (quickest) drop down and jump up (shortest amortization phase).

I was like, "what do hamstrings have to do with that?". The quads improve the amortization phase by decelerating the knees going forward and preventing the knees from collapsing.

I remember Kelly telling me, years ago, that my leg collapse in the plant is actually, by what he can guess, more a matter of hamstring strength than quad. I was, again, like wtf?

Dreyth

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lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.
I'm LAKERS from The Vertical Summit

Raptor

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Well yeah because you're going to need the quads for amortization and the glutes for hip extension. So...

adarqui

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it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.

There was an interesting test I once read & it corresponds to guys I mentioned who lift light (Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc). Two groups were divided to perform squats. One group trained at a slow rate, and the other at a fast rate. The fast group took 2 seconds to perform each repetition, 1 second down and 1 second up. The slow group took 3x as long. Both groups were tested in their before and after abilities for broad jumping and the strength of the individual muscles of the legs. The fast group increased their power output in their hips and ankles more so than the slow group, and more significant was the improvement in fast group's broad jumping performance. The slower group did gain more overall strength, but the increase in power output was higher overall in the fast group.

Guys like Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc train primarily for power NOT mass or incredible strength.

What I'm trying to say is, would you better off going 1 second down and 1 second up (increased power output at the hips) as opposed to going "semi" heavy/heavy (more strength incremental based) lifts to increase your VJ?. So going to heavy seems to decrease your power output when squatting.

It's like when you want to increase the speed of your punches by throwing out weight plates. You have to use a weight that offers resistance but at the same time the speed factor is majorly important. You can't go too heavy because you bury the speed element (power).





right of course, speed is important BUT, slower less athletic individuals won't be able to make long term gains if they restrict their lifts to 1 sec down + 1 sec up.. very powerful individuals naturally, will be able to make long term progress using that rep tempo, they already have that ability to display force quickly.. weaker individuals have "slower rate abilities" naturally, which isn't something you can improve very easily.. instead, weaker individuals want to maximize their strength which will allow for more force to be produced at their "natural rate of MU recruitment".. sure that rate will improve over time slightly by focusing on speed of each lift (but not worrying about 1s down + 1s up), incorporating reactive work, incorporating sprints, and incorporating jumps etc, but it's not going to improve dramatically.

for example, look at how I plant during my RVJ's, and how golden child/t-dub plants during their RVJ's.. the difference in plant speed/force production is amazing, and I actually have a pretty fast plant right now, it has improved over the years, but nothing close to an elite level jumper.. my body needs slightly more time on the ground to produce force, or i'm not going to get up good at all.. if i were to focus completely on minimizing GCT, I would not be able to put out maximal force development for my specific "rate abilities"..  this is why depth jumps are properly taught by: "focusing on achieving max height", because if you focus on "the fastest GCT", some individuals will make MORE GAINS than others, ie, the naturally more powerful athletes will achieve better gains than the weaker/slow athletes... but if you cue them properly, they both will make very similar gains, because the force production adaptations achieved will be specific to each athletes rate of force production abilities.. some people need to stay on the ground a little longer, it's just how they are wired.

i'm always trying to improve my speed under the bar, for example I could hit 315 x 5 and then 335 x 1, 315 x 5 being nice speed, 335 being a 7 second grinder... i'm not someone who can achieve REALLY FAST absolute 1rm's, for example, compared to someone who is a "freak oly lifter".. a freak oly lifter will get a true 1RM squat done in <2s, my true 1RM's are done in 5+ seconds... over time I will improve the speed of my 1RM's, but NOT BY A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT...... though not considerable, it is extremely significant.. for example, if it takes me 5s to perform a true 1RM squat, and after 1 year it now takes 4.7s to achieve a true 1RM squat, those are significant gains in speed for my specific abilities.

if you look at the MSEM blog (maximal strength effort method), we preach speed bigtime on this site.. not restricted to 1s down+1s up though.. really heavy lifting (MSEM) done for singles and MAX SPEED (whatever that max speed may be specific to your abilities), with strict & proper form... that is more effective imo, than restricting to a really fast rep scheme... let's not forget that workup sets should be done with speed also, so you're getting speed work there too, and can definitely move the submaximal weights much faster than when you start hitting 80% through 100% max

also, reactive work, reactive/explosive lifts, can definitely help to improve true 1RM rep speed.

pC


edit: in the end, you have to look at what is going to get you the most progress, and that is usually utilizing intensity ranges around 80-95%, so if I progress faster in those intensity ranges, regardless of the rep speed, improving my 1RM by ~100 lb for example, will allow me to improve greatly the speed of my 1RM minus 100 lb, so very significant adaptations in speed have occurred.

adarqui

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lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.

x2, i don't even think i have hamstrings..

:D

quadnation4lyfe.