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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on February 23, 2011, 05:57:04 pm

Title: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on February 23, 2011, 05:57:04 pm
Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump.
February 15, 2006.


Controversial?.

Original Link: http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/posteriorchain.php


In the early eighties, I was commissioned by a few National Sports Governing Bodies to write up strength training chapters for their technical certification programs, having to research background materials for the volleyball and basketball federations, I came to understand the importance of training the posterior chain to maximize strength gains as they clearly transfer over to the vertical jump. The muscles which are recruited most for the vertical jump are the glutes and hamstrings which contribute each relatively 40 & 25% of the force output. Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

Training for a maximal vertical jump requires a solid base of strength work in evidently the right muscles. The posterior chain strength preparation exercises will give a foundation for the power exercises which I will outline in an upcoming article. The strength preparation exercises are outlined in table 1.

Table 1:
The top seven posterior chain exercises for the vertical jump (Poliquin ©, 1998)
________________________________________________
1. Snatch deadlifts on podium
2. Romanian Deadlifts
3. Seated Good Mornings
4. Standing Bent Knee Good Mornings
5. Reverse Hypers
6. Glute-Hamstroc Raises
7. Pull-throughs

To make matters clear, a technical description for each exercise is listed below.

1. SNATCH DEADLIFT ON PODIUM
Introduction
It is one of my favorite ""pressed for time exercises"". That is, I will prescribe this exercise if the time to reach the training goal is somewhat limited. In other words, it is a ""most bang for your buck"" exercise. This exercise is excellent to improve the strength of the whole posterior chain and the vastus medialis muscle groups. Trainees who do it for the time experience incredible levels of delayed onset muscle soreness when doing this exercise. It is not uncommon for trainees to experience tremors after pushing the limit on this exercise.
When used with the correct loading parameters for hypertrophy, it is particularly useful for athletes who need to increase their overall bodyweight in record time. For additional overload, chains or bands can be added to the bar.

Starting Position Set-Up
Stand facing a barbell placed on the floor. Step up on the 4 inch platform that is set under the bar. A Trap Bar can be substituted for the barbell as a source of variety. Squat down and grab the bar with a snatch, that is 4 to 6 inches wider on each side than your shoulders. For sets calling for 3 or more repetitions, you may want to use straps to prevent the isometric strength-endurance of your gripping muscles to be the limiting factor in overloading the posterior chain and your quadriceps.

Ascent
Driving with legs first, raise the bar off the floor under control. The angle of your back to the floor should remain constant until the bar has reached at least mid-shin level. Make sure to keep a slight arch in the lower back throughout the movement. The bar should brush the body at all times. The elbows should be turned outward and remain locked throughout the movement.

Descent
Reverse the process of the ascent making sure that the chest is held high throughout the descent.
Be sure that you keep that lower back arched.
Throughout the ascent the athlete exhales.

Watch For's
1. There should be no kyphosis at any point during the movement.
2. The bar should be glued to the body at all times particularly in the start position where you should ensure that the bar makes contact with the shins.
3. Do not raise the hips prematurely, as it will shift the emphasis to the glutes and away from the hamstrings.

2. ROMANIAN DEADLIFTS PROPERLY
When to do Romanian Deadlifts
I was first introduced to Romanian deadlifts by former Romanian weightlifting star Dragomir Cioroslan as he was at the time just appointed U.S. national weightlifting coach. Dragomir went on to coach World Championship silver medalist Wes Barnett.

Of course, this exercise was around before it was popularized by Dragomir. It use to have names like Keystone Cop deadlifts, but the point is that it was somewhat forgotten, and the weightlifting performances of athletes like Nicu Vlad drew attention to its effectiveness.

Besides prescribing it to strengthen the posterior chain, I like use this exercise to improve its dynamic flexibility. In that case, I instruct the athlete to decelerate in the last few inches of the eccentric range and to concentrate on improving the range.

For this posterior chain exercise, contrary to lets say the seated good morning, I use a variety of loading parameter combinations. However, I don't see the use of going lower than 3 repetitions per set. It is one of those exercises where form can easily be lost, that is why I want a minimum of 3 repetitions per set. Also, I prefer to always use at least 3 seconds for the eccentric phase of this lift. It is of paramount importance to control the load on this exercise.

Between sets, I recommend you stretch the hip flexors, as they tend to tighten up in most individual's, as they tend to over cerebralize the exercise especially when first learning it.

Starting Position Set-Up
The grip on the bar should be pronated and just slightly wider than shoulder width.
Bend the knees about 25 degrees to relieve pressure on the ilio-tibial band.
If you are going to do more than 3 reps per set, I suggest you use a pair of quality straps like the ones made by Schiek.

Descent
Go down until you are about to lose your lordotic curve.
The glutes should shoot backwards during the descent to compensate for the shift in center of gravity.
Most trainees will not be able to go lower than mid-shins without losing their lordotic curve in the eccentric range. However, I have seen exceptional athletes like World Cup medal winner, alpine skier Cary Mullen, need to it on a bench so that the barbell plates would not hit the ground.

Ascent
Lift the trunk to the starting position, maintaining an arched lower back, shoulders retracted, and chest up.

Watch For's
1. Do not round the upper back to initiate the movement.
2. Trainee should hold breath in on the eccentric portion of the exercise to help maintain good posture. Exhale on the concentric phase.

Safety Concerns
1. Do not hyperextended the cervical spine at any point.
2. Do not allow to bend the knees more than the angle set in the start-up position.

3. SEATED GOOD MORNINGS PROPERLY
I was introduced to this exercise twenty years ago by former Canadian national weightlifting coach Pierre Roy, who himself had learned it from talking shop with his Polish colleagues.

I like it for athletes who have yet to be exposed to intensive lower back work. In other words, I am more likely to prescribe it to a beginner than to an Olympian. Even though at times, it might the proper choice of exercise for that elite athlete.

Every time I show this exercise to someone, I always make sure to warn them that they will get very sore hamstrings the next few days. Invariably after doing a few sets, I get this classic response ""Coach, this does not work the hamstrings, I only feel it in the lower back"". To which, I invariably answer ""lets talk about it tomorrow"". It never fails. I always get an apology the next day that sounds like this ""Coach, this is the last time I am doubting you, I couldn't even sit on the john without wincing in pain, please forgive me"".

Since I use this exercise mainly in general preparatory phases, I tend to use slower tempos such as 3030 and higher repetitions (8 to 12) when I prescribe it. Therefore I use it mainly for anatomical adaptations. In this exercise, I am concerned with creating intra-muscular tension by forbidding the use of momentum. Of course, when I use such slow tempos, I rarely exceed 6 repetitions per set.

Starting Position Set-Up
Stand facing a barbell placed on a pair of squat racks or a power rack. In this exercise, I prefer to use the Tribar Olympic bar, as the unique shape of the bar prevents it from rolling.
Duck under the bar and place it on the meaty area of the traps.
The grip on the bar should be as wide as possible, preferably collar to collar.
Back up and sit down on an exercise bench.

Descent
Keeping a lordotic curve lower the upper body until the lower ribs make contact with the adductors. Very important to keep your eyes looking forward throughout the movement. Inhale and hold breath in for the eccentric phase.

Ascent
Reverse the motion keeping your lower back tight and your torso up. Exhale on the concentric.

4. STANDING GOOD MORNINGS
It is one of the best hamstrings builders I know. It works the hamstrings in its hip extension mode, therefore it has a lot of carry-over to sports. This week, I had an intern from Wales who was doing the Westside Barbell version of the good morning, which also another great exercise, particular for speed-skaters. At the end of his workout, I showed him how to do this variation, he could not believe how sore he got in the hamstrings over the following days. Standing good mornings also strengthen the posterior fibers of the adductor magnus, thus helping to prevent groin pulls.

It was a staple of the training regimens of most Soviet athletes. In North America, it is rarely done. Or in some colleges, it is their interpretation of a full squat& I like prescribing it as a foundation exercise before starting a squat cycle. Particularly if the athlete has been diagnosed as having a weak lower back. If I prescribe the standing good morning for a given cycle, I will center the other leg exercises around the variations of step-up and the split squat exercises. When trying to drive the good morning poundages upwards, you should not try to increase the loads on squats concurrently. This will overtrain the lower back and lead you nowhere.

Starting Position Set-Up
Stand facing a barbell placed on a pair of squat racks or a power rack. In this exercise as-well, I prefer to use the Tribar Olympic bar to prevent rolling of the bar.
Duck under the bar and place it on the meaty area of the traps.
The grip on the bar should be as wide as possible, preferably collar to collar.
Bend the knees about 25 degrees to relieve pressure on the ilio-tibial band.

Descent
Keeping a lordotic curve lower the upper body until you feel your weight being the on the metatarsal joints. For some trainees that may mean the top of the trunk is 4 inches above the horizontal line, while for another trainee, it may mean 2 inches below the parallel line.

Ascent
Lift the trunk while keep the knee joint angle constant.

Watch For's
1. Do not bend the knees more than the figure recommend in the start-up position as you do the movement. This would defeat the purpose by engaging the knee extensors too much.

Safety Concerns
1. Do not hyperextended the cervical spine at any point.

5. REVERSE HYPERS
The vast majority of the www.charlespoliquin.net members are interested in gaining large amounts of muscle mass and functional strength. This is best accomplished by concentrating the bulk of the work on legs and lower back training. One machine that can target very effectively those muscles is the Reverse Hyper Machine. I first got to try out the Reverse Hyper Machine. a few years ago while coaching our Bobsleigh team in Innsbrück Austria. After coaching my athletes, I stayed at the gym to do my workout. The gym being busy, I had to share the equipment with some of the local powerlifters who held a few National titles. These Austrian powerlifters swore by its efficiency at improving their deadlift and squat performances. Both athletes claimed it made a difference between 35 kg (77 lbs) to 50 kg (110 lbs) on each of their squats and deadlfits. Even though, I had seen its advertisement in back issues of Powerlifting USA, I had never paid any direct attention to it, until I tried the machine. Since the Austrian athletes did not sell the machine, I was intrigued, jumped on the machine and pumped away. The movement felt quite right, the glutes, hamstrings, and erector spinae were being trashed by the machine. After my workout, I went to inquire about it with the gym owner/powerlifting coach.

This device is the brain-child of Westside Barbell Club owner and powerlifting coach extraordinaire Louie Simmons. This exercise has contributed to the building of many World Records in the deadlift and squat. Louie uses it as a staple in deadlift training. To gain more insight on the possibilities of this training, I made the trip to Columbus Ohio to speak to Louie about the machine.

The reverse Hyper machine will allow one to work the posterior chain in a synchronized manner. Your back extensions would target the same muscle group but not in the same recruitment pattern. Another disadvantage of the back extensions is the dizziness associated with their performance.

Starting Position Set-Up
Stand facing the reverse hypers unit.
Step in one leg at a time into the ankle strap provided, back up until your Achilles tendons make contact with the material of the strap or pad.
From this position, jump face down on the supporting surface and reach out to grasp the handles with a shoulder width pronated grip.

Ascent
Thrust the legs backwards together by extending the hips forcefully.

Descent
Lower the legs under control following the prescribed tempo of execution.

Watch For's
1. Do not arch the lower back to initiate the movement.

6. GLUTE HAMSTROC RAISES PROPERLY
Former Soviet athletes, particularly their track and weightlifting stars such as David Rigert, have always been known in athletic circles to have erector spinae development parallel to Arnold Schwarzeneggers biceps development. One of their secrets to huge erector spinae development had to be the Glute Hamstroc Raise. It was originally done in the Soviet Union with no more equipment than a set of of Swedish bars and pommel horse with a few mats thrown over it. In North America, we are fortunate to have more comfortable and easily adjustable Glute-Hamstroc raises benches. The best ones on the market are the ones made by Atlantis and Powerlift.

The design of the glute-ham bench allows an athlete to strengthen the erectors especially in the middle range of the movement which, in most sports, is where the body is exposed to high forces. Another plus for the glute-ham raise is that it is one of the most important exercises for preventing back and knee injuries, especially the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL). The spine is exposed to great compressive forces in many sports, I have found that athletes who are weak in the hamstrings, glutes and lower back not only are more likely to injure their lower back, but are especially prone to tearing the ACL. Because the glute-ham exercise increases muscle mass and strength in the back, glutes and hamstrings, those athletes who include this exercise in their program are better able to withstand the compressive loads on the spine and those that occur with sports such as football and Alpine skiing.

I would advise only after having a base of good morning work, at least six weeks of it. As in for example, 3 weeks of seated good mornings followed by 3 weeks of standing good mornings.

Ready Position
Lie facedown on a back extension bench and place your ankles under the ankle pads. Adjust your hips on the hip pad so that when you bend forward your back is perpendicular to the floor, but not rounded.

Action
Keeping your head in alignment with your spine and retracting your chin, lift your torso until your back is parallel to the floor. Continue the movement at this point by bending the knees (and pushing the balls of your feet against the footplate, if available) until your torso is almost perpendicular to the floor. Reverse the technique to return to the start.

Breathing
Hold your breath, raise your torso, then exhale halfway down or at the finish.

Tips
When the exercise becomes easier, hold a weight plate across your chest to increase the resistance. When this becomes easy place a barbell across your upper back, holding the bar as you would when performing a squat. Do not, however, place weight plates on your head as this could result in injury.

7. PULL-THROUGHS ARCHED-BACK
This exercise is another Louie Simmons movement. It is an outstanding exercise for developing explosive starts by focusing on the hips and lower back from a dead stop.

Ready Position
Stand facing away from the sled, holding one handle per hand. The athlete should straddle the straps. Bend forward at the waist until the trunk is parallel to the ground keeping a slight arch in the lower back. When the nylon strap is pulled tight, the elbows should be at a position even with the inside of the knees.

Action
From this position, forcefully stand upright by firing the hips though to full extension. Do not use the biceps and/or deltoids as primary movers here. The hands should remain in very close contact to the front of the body at the end of the concentric movement. If the hands are far away, it implies that the delts and/or biceps have been used too much and too early.

Note: Make sure someone is standing between the athlete and the sled to decelerate it as it comes near the ankles, particularly during warm-ups. Once the training weight has been selected correctly, this should not be a problem, and the sled will stop short of the ankles at the end of the pull-through."

Back 
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on February 23, 2011, 05:57:54 pm
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 23, 2011, 06:20:23 pm
Yeah that's silly. Saying they only contribute 5% makes me not believe a word of anything else from that article.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: lamp on February 23, 2011, 08:04:20 pm
well other than the 5% thing which obviously isn't true the stuff looks pretty good.

those 6 exercises are all tremendous in building athleticism and jumping ability
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: mj on February 23, 2011, 09:54:57 pm
agreed. I remember my 1st time doing snatch grip deads on a podium. They're hard as sh!t.

I did 4 x5, then 3's till failure (form), 2's same, singles same. I nealry blacked out twice and then got a mad euphoric rush 20 mins post workout. I was wandering around the house laughing at the dog  :wowthatwasnutswtf:

Apart from the quad stuff that advice is fairly solid.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 24, 2011, 04:51:30 am
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 24, 2011, 05:11:53 am
listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

Quote from: Raptor
Yeah that's silly. Saying they only contribute 5% makes me not believe a word of anything else from that article.

By the way - although the quads only contribute 5%, the hamstrings actually contribute 5 times more, 25%, according to that article.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 24, 2011, 05:15:18 am
listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

Quote from: Raptor
Yeah that's silly. Saying they only contribute 5% makes me not believe a word of anything else from that article.

By the way - although the quads only contribute 5%, the hamstrings actually contribute 5 times more, 25%, according to that article.

hamstring curl ur way to jordan-like hops, hamstringFlex.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 24, 2011, 07:57:55 am
You know, I was thinking: if you bend at the knee a lot, like you do adarqui, you take a lot of hamstring AND calf tension out of your legs, at least in the amortization phase. Hamstrings because the knees go forward and calves because the calves (gastrocs) are active when the knee is extended. When the knee is flexed, the soleus is actually doing job. The gastrocs probably exert power in the end (at the triple extension finish basically) when the knee is straight.

Now obviously the calves also amortizate your way towards the half squat position where the soleus si more active, so yeah, they still do jobs at both ends of the amortization phase.

The point was that I think the soleus is more important to deeper jumpers than those who jump with less knee bend, if that's important at all. Less knee bend means more tension in the hamstrings as well, so you need more hamstring strength in a one-leg jump.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on February 24, 2011, 09:02:59 am


here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT).

adarqui, Watching some of your youtube vids of you squatting, do you regard yourself as performing them heavy (2-3 seconds down and 2-3 seconds up?....  or explosively (1 second down and 1 second up)?.

For increasing jumping ability, what do you reckon is the best approach, heavy or explosive when squatting?.

I read stuff like Tyson Gay not doing anymore than 225lbs (102kg’s) ATG squats, Bruce Lee never squatting any more than 110kg's, just performing them light/ as fast as possible.

Your thoughts?.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 24, 2011, 03:52:37 pm
That doesn't make sense unless you're a genetic freak that already has high natural strength levels.

That's like saying "T-Dub doesn't squat, yet he jumps so high". Well yeah, of course he is, he's a guy with great structure for jumping and high natural strength levels, so he only invests time in jumping and gets better and better at that. He doesn't need to waste time training for strength.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 24, 2011, 05:27:53 pm


here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT).

adarqui, Watching some of your youtube vids of you squatting, do you regard yourself as performing them heavy (2-3 seconds down and 2-3 seconds up?....  or explosively (1 second down and 1 second up)?.

well, i have to be careful of my lower back/hamstring tendon, so generally, i go moderate speed down (2-3sec) then i explode up during the transition until completion, as fast as possible.. which is pretty slow looking but i still go max speed.

i'm not capable of those 1 sec down 1 sec up heavy lifts, i'm just not 'fast twitch enough'.. i'm very slow naturally so, you can see it in my lifting.. but lately my speed has been improving a bit on the descent on my free-half squats so that's a good sign.. ideally i'd want to squat down fast up fast with heavy weight, but safety/health first soo..


Quote
For increasing jumping ability, what do you reckon is the best approach, heavy or explosive when squatting?.

it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.



Quote
I read stuff like Tyson Gay not doing anymore than 225lbs (102kg’s) ATG squats, Bruce Lee never squatting any more than 110kg's, just performing them light/ as fast as possible.

Your thoughts?.

people with great genetics can get away with stuff like that.. they are capable of alot more if they were motivated to do so.. if you can jump 50, you can put up a shitload on squat (half, deep, whatever is comfortable) relative to your bodyweight if you trained it.. it's impossible not to do so, the power is there.. the motivation/not being afraid under the bar mentality has to be there though too.

so those guys don't need to push themselves under the bar like most of us WEAKER individuals do.. weaker people need to improve to the ability of moving insane weight very fast, that's the only way we will approach elite level performance.. that combined with all of the other factors.. but we really need to get FREAKY strong.

so ya, i'm not on the lift lighter/more explosive boat, that's for sure.. if that style of lifting allows you to put up huge weights, then sure, but if it doesn't, it's a waste.

peace man








That doesn't make sense unless you're a genetic freak that already has high natural strength levels.

That's like saying "T-Dub doesn't squat, yet he jumps so high". Well yeah, of course he is, he's a guy with great structure for jumping and high natural strength levels, so he only invests time in jumping and gets better and better at that. He doesn't need to waste time training for strength.

that's where you & everyone is incorrect.. if t-dub strength trained properly, he'd be capable of alot more.. bottom line, he is able to push his limits naturally, great genetics, but he is capable of more.. the only way he would be able to achieve his absolute peak potential would be to utilize progressive resistance training and take advantage of stim concepts.

people who are "content" with their elite level athletic abilities don't achieve much more than what we see them do in high school... people with average/somewhat good athletic abilities can reach pretty close to elite level ability, because they aren't content.. if elite level athletes were ashamed of their jumping/sprinting ability, they would have more drive to use advanced s&c methods to push their limits to the peak.. this of course has it's risks, just like it has it's risks with us, but bottom line, if you're content, you're not reaching maximum potential.

put t-dub under a bar and hypertrophy his prime movers for jumping, increase his strength under the bar, take advantage of PAP/stim/more advanced reactive work, and we might see a 60 instead of a ~53..

peace
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 24, 2011, 05:56:26 pm
Oh yeah, absolutely. What I was aiming at was the fact that "to dunk" he doesn't need to strength train. So he pretty much dunks all day long because he can do it naturally.

But of course, if he were to think "man, I need to get higher than this" then the same rules pretty much apply for him as for anybody else.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 24, 2011, 06:13:27 pm
Oh yeah, absolutely. What I was aiming at was the fact that "to dunk" he doesn't need to strength train. So he pretty much dunks all day long because he can do it naturally.

But of course, if he were to think "man, I need to get higher than this" then the same rules pretty much apply for him as for anybody else.

yup, sorry, misunderstood your initial comment.

ya it pisses me off that these guys like t-dub/YH etc are 'content'... so much potential naturally, i'd love to see them push their limits to the extreme.









You know, I was thinking: if you bend at the knee a lot, like you do adarqui, you take a lot of hamstring AND calf tension out of your legs, at least in the amortization phase. Hamstrings because the knees go forward and calves because the calves (gastrocs) are active when the knee is extended. When the knee is flexed, the soleus is actually doing job. The gastrocs probably exert power in the end (at the triple extension finish basically) when the knee is straight.

Now obviously the calves also amortizate your way towards the half squat position where the soleus si more active, so yeah, they still do jobs at both ends of the amortization phase.

The point was that I think the soleus is more important to deeper jumpers than those who jump with less knee bend, if that's important at all. Less knee bend means more tension in the hamstrings as well, so you need more hamstring strength in a one-leg jump.

it's possible, i know for a fact i really "stress the calfs" when doing my half squats (knees shifting forward) and during my plants for my RVJ's.. it seems mostly like gastroc though, I do know very well how soleus soreness feels because of my long 'endurance training history' , it feels much different..

eddie is a good example of weak hamstrings and an insane SLRVJ.. i'm a good example of weak hamstrings and considerable DLRVJ progress.. hamstrings just aren't that important for vertical displacement i don't care what anyone says.. sure you want them to get strong just like everything else, but to focus on them exclusively is pointless imo..

eddie couldn't even come close to lowering himself on the GHR machine or PMGHR machine, his hamstrings would give out and cramp.. yet he's jumping legit 42.5" on vertec SLRVJ and higher outdoors with full runup.. one thing that was extremely strong, for him, was his glutes, quads, and calfs..... calfs especially.. he could half squat well over 2xBW and calf raise 225 x 20 like it was nothing.. I can't even do that.

quadnation/calfnation/glutenation for life.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: JoelJ on February 24, 2011, 10:01:58 pm
Don't forget whose article this is. Charles Poliquin has trained many Olympic medalists, including a gold medalist sprinter and a gold medalist long jumper.

Still though, he claims that biomechanists estimated the numbers he's providing (40% for glutes, 25% for hamstrings, 5% for quads, 5% for calves, the shoulder girdle 15%, and dunno where the other 10% went). I'd like to see these studies, but the closest thing I can find to this would be that the hip extensors contribute more to a horizontal jump than a vertical jump.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 24, 2011, 10:32:10 pm
Don't forget whose article this is. Charles Poliquin has trained many Olympic medalists, including a gold medalist sprinter and a gold medalist long jumper.

Still though, he claims that biomechanists estimated the numbers he's providing (40% for glutes, 25% for hamstrings, 5% for quads, 5% for calves, the shoulder girdle 15%, and dunno where the other 10% went). I'd like to see these studies, but the closest thing I can find to this would be that the hip extensors contribute more to a horizontal jump than a vertical jump.

"5% quads" makes me cringe, doesn't matter how many olympic athletes he's trained.. ;/
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: lamp on February 24, 2011, 10:59:29 pm
charles poliquin is notorious for over-exaggerating and even making up facts.
However, there is a lot of good stuff buried within the trash...you just have to have enough knowledge to be able to pick and choose for yourself

Is he a legendary coach?  Yes

Should you believe everything he writes?  No
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on February 25, 2011, 09:23:26 am
it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.

There was an interesting test I once read & it corresponds to guys I mentioned who lift light (Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc). Two groups were divided to perform squats. One group trained at a slow rate, and the other at a fast rate. The fast group took 2 seconds to perform each repetition, 1 second down and 1 second up. The slow group took 3x as long. Both groups were tested in their before and after abilities for broad jumping and the strength of the individual muscles of the legs. The fast group increased their power output in their hips and ankles more so than the slow group, and more significant was the improvement in fast group's broad jumping performance. The slower group did gain more overall strength, but the increase in power output was higher overall in the fast group.

Guys like Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc train primarily for power NOT mass or incredible strength.

What I'm trying to say is, would you better off going 1 second down and 1 second up (increased power output at the hips) as opposed to going "semi" heavy/heavy (more strength incremental based) lifts to increase your VJ?. So going to heavy seems to decrease your power output when squatting.

It's like when you want to increase the speed of your punches by throwing out weight plates. You have to use a weight that offers resistance but at the same time the speed factor is majorly important. You can't go too heavy because you bury the speed element (power).



Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 25, 2011, 09:46:34 am
Well firstly, when you build strength (mass, not power) you're still trying to go as fast as possible. Secondly, more mass/pure strength without power increases is just a matter of potential. You increase your potential by increasing your maximal strength. Then you can tweak the gained strength to become more powerful. That's pretty much the basis of cycles anyway.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Nightfly on February 25, 2011, 06:32:43 pm
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F

Epic post
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Nightfly on February 25, 2011, 06:54:26 pm


yup, sorry, misunderstood your initial comment.

ya it pisses me off that these guys like t-dub/YH etc are 'content'... so much potential naturally, i'd love to see them push their limits to the extreme.


This would happen if they would do that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZG6-1WaxhY
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: BMully on February 25, 2011, 09:02:18 pm
shit since quads are only 5% why the fuck do I train them? they are just weighing me down...

Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 25, 2011, 09:06:50 pm
Yeah. CUT THEM OFF!
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: BMully on February 25, 2011, 09:10:14 pm
Yeah. CUT THEM OFF!

That's what I was thinking....didn't want to really say it though.

I stopped reading that article after the quads comment, so I don't know what it says is important to jumping.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: BMully on February 25, 2011, 09:15:49 pm
The top seven posterior chain exercises for the vertical jump (Poliquin ©, 1998)
________________________________________________
1. Snatch deadlifts on podium
2. Romanian Deadlifts
3. Seated Good Mornings
4. Standing Bent Knee Good Mornings
5. Reverse Hypers
6. Glute-Hamstroc Raises
7. Pull-throughs



Hmmm....... Maybe you should think about an updated version of information to take as a source.

So if we all had super strong hamstrings..and weak quads..we could jump?  

this might be me thinking, but I don't think we could do that without pulling a muslce

Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 25, 2011, 09:35:38 pm
I remember DeFranco saying the best jumpers had the best hamstrings in his tests, and the best (quickest) drop down and jump up (shortest amortization phase).

I was like, "what do hamstrings have to do with that?". The quads improve the amortization phase by decelerating the knees going forward and preventing the knees from collapsing.

I remember Kelly telling me, years ago, that my leg collapse in the plant is actually, by what he can guess, more a matter of hamstring strength than quad. I was, again, like wtf?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Dreyth on February 25, 2011, 09:37:55 pm
lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 25, 2011, 09:42:09 pm
Well yeah because you're going to need the quads for amortization and the glutes for hip extension. So...
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 25, 2011, 10:59:52 pm
it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.

There was an interesting test I once read & it corresponds to guys I mentioned who lift light (Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc). Two groups were divided to perform squats. One group trained at a slow rate, and the other at a fast rate. The fast group took 2 seconds to perform each repetition, 1 second down and 1 second up. The slow group took 3x as long. Both groups were tested in their before and after abilities for broad jumping and the strength of the individual muscles of the legs. The fast group increased their power output in their hips and ankles more so than the slow group, and more significant was the improvement in fast group's broad jumping performance. The slower group did gain more overall strength, but the increase in power output was higher overall in the fast group.

Guys like Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc train primarily for power NOT mass or incredible strength.

What I'm trying to say is, would you better off going 1 second down and 1 second up (increased power output at the hips) as opposed to going "semi" heavy/heavy (more strength incremental based) lifts to increase your VJ?. So going to heavy seems to decrease your power output when squatting.

It's like when you want to increase the speed of your punches by throwing out weight plates. You have to use a weight that offers resistance but at the same time the speed factor is majorly important. You can't go too heavy because you bury the speed element (power).





right of course, speed is important BUT, slower less athletic individuals won't be able to make long term gains if they restrict their lifts to 1 sec down + 1 sec up.. very powerful individuals naturally, will be able to make long term progress using that rep tempo, they already have that ability to display force quickly.. weaker individuals have "slower rate abilities" naturally, which isn't something you can improve very easily.. instead, weaker individuals want to maximize their strength which will allow for more force to be produced at their "natural rate of MU recruitment".. sure that rate will improve over time slightly by focusing on speed of each lift (but not worrying about 1s down + 1s up), incorporating reactive work, incorporating sprints, and incorporating jumps etc, but it's not going to improve dramatically.

for example, look at how I plant during my RVJ's, and how golden child/t-dub plants during their RVJ's.. the difference in plant speed/force production is amazing, and I actually have a pretty fast plant right now, it has improved over the years, but nothing close to an elite level jumper.. my body needs slightly more time on the ground to produce force, or i'm not going to get up good at all.. if i were to focus completely on minimizing GCT, I would not be able to put out maximal force development for my specific "rate abilities"..  this is why depth jumps are properly taught by: "focusing on achieving max height", because if you focus on "the fastest GCT", some individuals will make MORE GAINS than others, ie, the naturally more powerful athletes will achieve better gains than the weaker/slow athletes... but if you cue them properly, they both will make very similar gains, because the force production adaptations achieved will be specific to each athletes rate of force production abilities.. some people need to stay on the ground a little longer, it's just how they are wired.

i'm always trying to improve my speed under the bar, for example I could hit 315 x 5 and then 335 x 1, 315 x 5 being nice speed, 335 being a 7 second grinder... i'm not someone who can achieve REALLY FAST absolute 1rm's, for example, compared to someone who is a "freak oly lifter".. a freak oly lifter will get a true 1RM squat done in <2s, my true 1RM's are done in 5+ seconds... over time I will improve the speed of my 1RM's, but NOT BY A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT...... though not considerable, it is extremely significant.. for example, if it takes me 5s to perform a true 1RM squat, and after 1 year it now takes 4.7s to achieve a true 1RM squat, those are significant gains in speed for my specific abilities.

if you look at the MSEM blog (maximal strength effort method), we preach speed bigtime on this site.. not restricted to 1s down+1s up though.. really heavy lifting (MSEM) done for singles and MAX SPEED (whatever that max speed may be specific to your abilities), with strict & proper form... that is more effective imo, than restricting to a really fast rep scheme... let's not forget that workup sets should be done with speed also, so you're getting speed work there too, and can definitely move the submaximal weights much faster than when you start hitting 80% through 100% max

also, reactive work, reactive/explosive lifts, can definitely help to improve true 1RM rep speed.

pC


edit: in the end, you have to look at what is going to get you the most progress, and that is usually utilizing intensity ranges around 80-95%, so if I progress faster in those intensity ranges, regardless of the rep speed, improving my 1RM by ~100 lb for example, will allow me to improve greatly the speed of my 1RM minus 100 lb, so very significant adaptations in speed have occurred.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 25, 2011, 11:03:19 pm
lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.

x2, i don't even think i have hamstrings..

:D

quadnation4lyfe.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 26, 2011, 09:31:59 am
You also have to think like this:

How you can jump faster: with your bodyweight or with additional weight on you, like a weight vest or a barbell? So basically, improving your strength will make your bodyweight be a lower % of your max 1RM, and a lower percentage is easier to move/jump. Period.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: LBSS on February 27, 2011, 10:08:10 pm
it depends on the athlete, but, in general, most people need "heavy explosive", since most people are weak.. always "as explosive as possible" with heavy weights.. max acceleration is a must, the descent can be controlled, but the transition from ecc to con has to be explosive as possible, accelerating all the way through to the top.. that's how you improve explosive strength to a greater degree than just lifting slow.

There was an interesting test I once read & it corresponds to guys I mentioned who lift light (Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc). Two groups were divided to perform squats. One group trained at a slow rate, and the other at a fast rate. The fast group took 2 seconds to perform each repetition, 1 second down and 1 second up. The slow group took 3x as long. Both groups were tested in their before and after abilities for broad jumping and the strength of the individual muscles of the legs. The fast group increased their power output in their hips and ankles more so than the slow group, and more significant was the improvement in fast group's broad jumping performance. The slower group did gain more overall strength, but the increase in power output was higher overall in the fast group.

Guys like Bruce Lee, Tyson Gay, Usain Bolt etc train primarily for power NOT mass or incredible strength.

What I'm trying to say is, would you better off going 1 second down and 1 second up (increased power output at the hips) as opposed to going "semi" heavy/heavy (more strength incremental based) lifts to increase your VJ?. So going to heavy seems to decrease your power output when squatting.

It's like when you want to increase the speed of your punches by throwing out weight plates. You have to use a weight that offers resistance but at the same time the speed factor is majorly important. You can't go too heavy because you bury the speed element (power).





Was the study done with the same amount of weight between groups? Because all other things being equal, I think the idea is that you should lift the weight as explosively as possible. If your squat 1RM is 400 lbs, then 385 is gonna go up slow and 225 is gonna go up fast. But both have their uses.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: JayC on February 28, 2011, 08:44:37 am
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F

You sure about number 18? Sports sciene had an episode on this "myth"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDFelcPAe2s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDFelcPAe2s)
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on February 28, 2011, 09:31:13 am
I've always said nr 18 is true for a simple reason: if you watch wildlife, a male without a partner will always be aggressive and nervous - he just HAS to have a mate (or simply put - fuck someone/something). It's just the way life ensures it's cyclic nature/perpetuation. So basically, the longer you go without sex the more frustrated you are and the more rate coding benefits/CNS power you get.

It's like an energy boost. Your body/brain/whatever "needs" to have/find a partner and is willing to fight with another male to do it, so you become more aggressive. It definitely depends from person to person, some people will probably have to wait a longer period until they get into that teritorry.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: horton on February 28, 2011, 07:24:14 pm
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F

haha at #23. but i like this list man. Overall message = dont be a bitch, work hard and go get it
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: swatts on February 28, 2011, 07:31:25 pm
You cant really say they dont/do contribute a certain percentage until you define the type of vertical jump that is being performed....

Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 28, 2011, 07:53:02 pm
Quote
Contrary to popular belief the quads only contribute 5% or less to the vertical jump.

I find this hard to believe.

Kelly bagget says that a 2 footed vertical jump is a quad dominant activity.

quads 5% of VJ LMFAO


where the hell is jack cascio when you need him.. same shit.

listen, i won't read anything anyone has to say on the matter of jumping if they believe quads are "5%" of vertical jump.

lmao @ 5% im still laughing.




here's my top exercises for vert:

1. improve squat (deep, half, pin, front, whatever) to 2.5-3.5xBW (the deeper you go, the closer you can be to "2.5x", the higher you go, the more you need to be 3-3.5x... sounds heavy dont it? STFU AND GET IT)
2. low bodyfat
3. jump alot (3-4x/week max)
4. incorporate reactive/rebounding exercises
5. maintain/improve fitness, never get out of shape
6. short maximal sprints
7. shitloads of caffeine on peaking days
8. improve calf strength under tension (calf raises)
9. extra glute/ham work (reverse hyper, glute bridges, 45deg hyper, lunges)
10. improve general upperbody strength, especially being able to perform various pullups very explosively
11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.
12. journal properly so you really know if you're progressing or not
13. get enough sleep prior to your jumping days (has to be enough in terms of not accumulating a sleep debt..)
14. incorporate level-7 techniques if needed lmzao.
15. learn how to harness pap/stim from heavy lifting to achieve better jump sessions 2 days later (after 1 day of rest)
16. eat properly the day before jumping, lots of good carbs/protein, for example, 10 bananas + small meals + some protein each meal. need full glycogen reserves but also don't want to be bogged down come jump day
17. don't eat TOO much on the day of jumping, eat light, keep food portions smaller to avoid carb/satiety fatigue... bottom line, you want to be hungry, you want to be pissed, you want to murder gravity, you can't be content.
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
19. don't be a passive pussy when jumping/training, if you have a bad jump/set, fuck it, attack, it's life or death you don't quit like a pussy and let yourself be ravaged by a pack of hungry 9.8m/s^2's.
20. allow all of the above to make you more 'animalistic', we have become some sort of society drained spinoff human organism not capable of simply attacking the objective as if it were the only thing that matters at that moment for survival..
21. think about jumping when you are lifting weights, mind muscle link, you want that increased neural drive come jump time, so 'build a bridge between jumping and maximal heavy lifting'
22. warm up properly, it's important, progress gradually for 15-20 minutes until you're ready to START max jumping
23. michael jordan
24. think less, work harder
25. stop thinking the quads are unimportant
26. stop thinking the calfs are unimportant
27. start thinking the glutes are important
28. stop worrying about "instant inches techniques changes", this aint a high jump meet
29. never quit & i'll be 29 on august 16 2011.

ok there's my list..

peace ;F

You sure about number 18? Sports sciene had an episode on this "myth"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDFelcPAe2s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDFelcPAe2s)

sport science is a really shitty show, but, beyond that, they didn't study before/after "VERT", they studied a winging punch, big difference.

an important factor to this "myth" is how people feel.. if someone tells me "i cant have sex before the fight or i feel weaker", then i'm not going to try in the least to persuade them otherwise.. it'll have a negative impact regardless of how it measures up physiologically..




I've always said nr 18 is true for a simple reason: if you watch wildlife, a male without a partner will always be aggressive and nervous - he just HAS to have a mate (or simply put - fuck someone/something). It's just the way life ensures it's cyclic nature/perpetuation. So basically, the longer you go without sex the more frustrated you are and the more rate coding benefits/CNS power you get.

It's like an energy boost. Your body/brain/whatever "needs" to have/find a partner and is willing to fight with another male to do it, so you become more aggressive. It definitely depends from person to person, some people will probably have to wait a longer period until they get into that teritorry.

excellent post..

a good example of this is, after lions mate the male will plop down and goto sleep.

the same can be said about food.. food & sex, or lack there of, make animals really pissed off.. after my dog humps my aunt's leg, he wants to relax. lmao... if you are really starving you will do pretty much anything to eat, murder no longer becomes an issue.

historically, humans didn't have "porn" for self arousal, so, it wasn't as easy to "become content" as it is now days.. the last thing you want is to feel "content" or some form of achievement prior to going out and trying to display maximal power/force.. achievement comes AFTER.. after the "kill is made", after strength/power is displayed maximally.. then it's time to be content.

to add to this excellent post by raptor, just look at this simple concept: "what happens generally, to men/women who get married?" ???? they get content.. overall, in life, they slack in terms of exercise & aggressiveness.. the persuit of a mate is no longer an issue, no longer to "ruffle ones feathers" to impress potential mates.. no need to display dominant traits when you have a partner for life.

mike tyson is psychotic but he's also a genius, he is basically an animal who can speak, he is that primal.. he speaks about alot of this in his own unique way.. it's worth listening to if you come across it, because in his prime, he was the most alpha human to ever step foot on this planet in terms of hand 2 hand combat.

peace





edit: when people ask me who my fav s&c coaches are, I say: "verkhoshansky, zatsiorsky, brooks kubik, and the animal kingdom".. we can learn alot from predators.. to become the most powerful athletes given our human potential, we have to truly become human (not our current mostly untapped content species) which at it's very nature is an incredible predator.. natural athletes can tap into this more than less gifted individuals, but the end result is all the same.. to completely display our true abilities without inhibition voluntarily (not involuntarily using fight or flight life or death situations).
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on February 28, 2011, 07:59:06 pm
You cant really say they dont/do contribute a certain percentage until you define the type of vertical jump that is being performed....



if it's vertical, quads contribute greatly.. the more horizontal the jump becomes, hamstring/glute contribution increases even further as the quad contribution decreases.. it is simply - that simple.

vertical jump -> broad jump -> long jump -> top speed sprinting
quad dominant                                             quad protective
ham protective                                             ham (+glute) dominant
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: swatts on February 28, 2011, 08:20:56 pm
I was eluding to the variation in contribution during CM vs non CM jumping. 
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on March 01, 2011, 07:58:14 am
That's absolutely correct adarqui.

It's interesting some vegetarians keep on talking about how we're supposed to be vegs, yet we have canines.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Nightfly on March 01, 2011, 11:25:28 am

to add to this excellent post by raptor, just look at this simple concept: "what happens generally, to men/women who get married?" ???? they get content.. overall, in life, they slack in terms of exercise & aggressiveness.. the persuit of a mate is no longer an issue, no longer to "ruffle ones feathers" to impress potential mates.. no need to display dominant traits when you have a partner for life.


^^ That's really great. That's why i'm never happy, never content, whenever i have something i only want something more, i end up depressed some times but looking at the big picture, i'm always "hungry", always in need to prove what i have, what i achievede and only need to achieve even more so i can brag even more about it. I don't know what's better, being happy or being a beast, but i know for me and probably for you beast is better. Your post really motivates me.  :headbang:
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on March 01, 2011, 11:27:47 am
Well yeah, it's the way we're made to be competitive and just go on and on in our evolution...
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 01, 2011, 03:05:13 pm
That's absolutely correct adarqui.

It's interesting some vegetarians keep on talking about how we're supposed to be vegs, yet we have canines.

canines are for lettuce bro! lmao

another good point






to add to this excellent post by raptor, just look at this simple concept: "what happens generally, to men/women who get married?" ???? they get content.. overall, in life, they slack in terms of exercise & aggressiveness.. the persuit of a mate is no longer an issue, no longer to "ruffle ones feathers" to impress potential mates.. no need to display dominant traits when you have a partner for life.


^^ That's really great. That's why i'm never happy, never content, whenever i have something i only want something more, i end up depressed some times but looking at the big picture, i'm always "hungry", always in need to prove what i have, what i achievede and only need to achieve even more so i can brag even more about it. I don't know what's better, being happy or being a beast, but i know for me and probably for you beast is better. Your post really motivates me.  :headbang:

i'm the same, i usually get "down on myself" AFTER PR's.. i'll be happy about PR then get pissed/depressed because I want more PR's.. just have to play the mind game at that point and stay on track.

i think it's just how we're wired.. when you're driven, you just can't be "completely happy" no matter how much progress you make.. you make progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, make more progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, make more progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, make more progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, make more progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, make more progress (PR), you get happy, then you stagnate, you get mad/depressed slightly, then you get more angry, ............ :)

so ya I think it's how a "driven individual" is wired.. just think about it, if you didn't get depressed while making all of this progress, you probably wouldn't have made all of that progress in the first place.. you would have been content making layups... so it's a cycle of reward/anger/need for more reward that keeps us hungry.

our drug of choice is PR'n vert/performance, so, just like any drug the effectiveness wears off over time and you need more of it.. we need to keep PR'n or we go through withdrawl :D

peace
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: ssr7 on March 02, 2011, 04:44:27 pm
Quote
18. don't masturbate or have sex prior to jumping/training, always after.
very true...i still lol'd
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: hennas87 on March 03, 2011, 05:10:01 am
lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.

x2, i don't even think i have hamstrings..

:D

quadnation4lyfe.


does this mean that I am wasting my time doing deadlifts and romanian deadlifts to try and increase my vertical jump?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 03, 2011, 10:55:29 am
lmao i have zero hamstrings and all quads/glutes and its due to squatting and not deadlifting, and my svj and rvj (both 1 foot and 2 feet) have massively improved since I dropped deadlifting.

x2, i don't even think i have hamstrings..

:D

quadnation4lyfe.


does this mean that I am wasting my time doing deadlifts and romanian deadlifts to try and increase my vertical jump?

nope.. getting every muscle group generally strong is beneficial.

deadlifting has carry over to squat, it will hit your glutes, hams, and erectors very hard, also it gives you nice traps.. rdl's are good assistance for general hamstring strength.

hamstring strength is important for protecting the knee during extension, also they are very important in sprinting.

peace
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: hennas87 on March 03, 2011, 01:00:00 pm
word.

I'm also trying to work up to being able to do the natural glute ham raise after seeing the video you posted on the motivational thread, you managed to do it yet adarq?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 03, 2011, 01:36:23 pm
word.

I'm also trying to work up to being able to do the natural glute ham raise after seeing the video you posted on the motivational thread,

nice :) how much progress have you made?


Quote
you managed to do it yet adarq?

nope I got lazy with pmghr's.. I suck at them & it hits my hamstring tendons a bit too hard, so I just hit 45 degree hyper hard, now that I have access to one..




for anyone else that is wondering what he's talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsXpTzXT-Uo

:)
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: hennas87 on March 03, 2011, 03:49:02 pm
I haven't had too much of an oppurtunity to try them.

the best way I have to do them is on a lat pulldown machine using the seat backwards and upsidedown to the normal way of using it  8)

from a dead start I don't get very far but with a tiny push from my arms I can do them. definitely makes them a lot easier but I figure this is bound to help progress the dead start ones.
you can bet that I'll video it when I do it  ;D

I really do feel it in my hamstrings after I've done it, pretty hardcore exercise and one that I've never seen anyone do in any gym i've been to.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: D4 on March 03, 2011, 06:06:03 pm

11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.


Would doing explosive dumbbell swings upwards consistently for a few weeks actually give a significant increase in vertical (1-2 inches)?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 03, 2011, 08:39:47 pm

11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.


Would doing explosive dumbbell swings upwards consistently for a few weeks actually give a significant increase in vertical (1-2 inches)?

i'd have hands locked, ie, two hands on one dumbell or using a plate to swing.. if you don't have very powerful shoulders already, then yes it can help and give a few inches, who is to say how long though.. but arm swing is a very important part of any type of jumping, so by really getting those shoulders powerful, itll definitely have some carry over.. doing things like plate swings, double arm db swings, and snatches can all be very beneficial, though snatch variations are much more hip driven, that's why something like a plate swing can provide even more benefit for arm swing "from the bottom"..

really keeps those arms locked out and try to derive most of the power from the shoulders, i need to vid one day how i do it, i sit into it, arms locked grabbing the plate, and really try to swing up using ONLY shoulder power, but of course I use a little bit of hip also.

i would avoid db swings with one in each hand though, can get a little risky for the shoulders.

peace
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: D4 on March 04, 2011, 02:04:38 am

11. some sort of explosive arm swing exercise, could be hip dominant or not, ie plate swings, db swings, hang snatch, etc.


Would doing explosive dumbbell swings upwards consistently for a few weeks actually give a significant increase in vertical (1-2 inches)?

i'd have hands locked, ie, two hands on one dumbell or using a plate to swing.. if you don't have very powerful shoulders already, then yes it can help and give a few inches, who is to say how long though.. but arm swing is a very important part of any type of jumping, so by really getting those shoulders powerful, itll definitely have some carry over.. doing things like plate swings, double arm db swings, and snatches can all be very beneficial, though snatch variations are much more hip driven, that's why something like a plate swing can provide even more benefit for arm swing "from the bottom"..

really keeps those arms locked out and try to derive most of the power from the shoulders, i need to vid one day how i do it, i sit into it, arms locked grabbing the plate, and really try to swing up using ONLY shoulder power, but of course I use a little bit of hip also.

i would avoid db swings with one in each hand though, can get a little risky for the shoulders.

peace

When doing these dumbbell swings with 2 hands, am I supposed to use heavy dumbbells to the point where I end up kinda lifting it pretty slow, or am I supposed to get the heaviest that I can still swing upwards explosively and fast?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: hennas87 on March 05, 2011, 04:36:47 am
I would have thought that you should use the heaviest weight you can that you can still be explosive with and progress from there.
perhaps try heavier weights in exercises which aren't as risky such as military press to get your shoulders stronger.

Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 05, 2011, 04:55:05 am
I would have thought that you should use the heaviest weight you can that you can still be explosive with and progress from there.
perhaps try heavier weights in exercises which aren't as risky such as military press to get your shoulders stronger.



ya exactly.. if you're lifting so heavy that it becomes slow, no way you'll be able to "stiff arm it", it'll become some kind of press.

but yup you got it right on every statement in there ^^

peace
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: D4 on March 05, 2011, 05:13:17 pm
I would have thought that you should use the heaviest weight you can that you can still be explosive with and progress from there.
perhaps try heavier weights in exercises which aren't as risky such as military press to get your shoulders stronger.



ya exactly.. if you're lifting so heavy that it becomes slow, no way you'll be able to "stiff arm it", it'll become some kind of press.

but yup you got it right on every statement in there ^^

peace

Okay so, I've never tried this workout before.  I looked around online and I guess it works out your hams, glutes, hips, low back, and shoulders?  If I wanna directly target shoulders for powerful upperbody swings when doing VJ's, should I reduce hip extension and just emphasize more of the swing with primarily my shoulders?  If I do this will my low back still get worked?

Cause I wanna use this workout as a shoulder workout (primarily to carryover to a VJ) AND to strengthen my lower back as well, but not really hips, glutes, hams.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: bball2020 on March 05, 2011, 06:56:30 pm
arent dumbbell swings more of a hip movement rather than a shoulder movement?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on March 05, 2011, 07:17:28 pm
Yes they are, at least those done correctly.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 05, 2011, 07:26:58 pm
arent dumbbell swings more of a hip movement rather than a shoulder movement?

I perform mine a little like these.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1S7ndk1wM


The only difference is, I don't go as heavy & my knees remain locked.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: D4 on March 05, 2011, 07:33:40 pm
arent dumbbell swings more of a hip movement rather than a shoulder movement?

I perform mine a little like these.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY1S7ndk1wM


The only difference is, I don't go as heavy & my knees remain locked.

So you do it with a primary shoulder target?  Does that still target your coree?
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 06, 2011, 07:38:09 pm
So you do it with a primary shoulder target?  Does that still target your coree?

I'm a mainly a sprinter not a jumper, so I do them lighter/explosively as possible mainly for my deltoids, no bouncing about.

They will definitely target your core though. Before your legs/arms contract, your inner core contracts first.

If you go heavy, try performing them by exhaling everything out your lungs contracting everything in your core, then stick your tongue to the roof of your mouth, then perform them with your knees locked, holding your breath the whole time, it will ravage your core. It's pretty extreme.










Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: adarqui on March 07, 2011, 01:26:41 am
arent dumbbell swings more of a hip movement rather than a shoulder movement?

pause completely at the bottom, keep arms fully locked out, and try to initiate all movement through the shoulders..... you'll use the hips but if you do it that way you'll get alot more shoulder.. if you go too heavy itll become hip movement primarily.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: Raptor on March 07, 2011, 07:10:52 am
I could always do KB swings well, hip initiated, because the arms are being kept straight and the KB is going foward. I could never understand how can you do power cleans or snatches, where the arm bends, without involving the arms.
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: bball2020 on March 07, 2011, 01:11:34 pm
hmm never did them like that

Another great but under used exercise for improving lower/upper body in terms of vertical jump power- overhead med ball throws, almost same thing as swings except your letting go for distance or height
Title: Re: Posterior Chain Strength Preparation for the Vertical Jump by Charles Poliquin?.
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 07, 2011, 01:24:55 pm
Another great but under used exercise for improving lower/upper body in terms of vertical jump power- overhead med ball throws, almost same thing as swings except your letting go for distance or height.

Yeah, they are a good exercise, triple extension.