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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: DamienZ on December 03, 2010, 09:40:28 am

Title: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: DamienZ on December 03, 2010, 09:40:28 am
Quote
OMPARISON OF POWER PRODUCTION IN THE HANG CLEAN VS. JUMP SHRUG AT DIFFERENT RELATIVE INTENSITIES

Although the hang power clean (HC) is utilized in many strength-power training programs, it is an exercise that requires high skill. In addition, regular supervision is often required to assure proper lifting technique is being performed. Many variations and lead-up exercises are used to teach the HC. One exercise used to progressively teach the HC is the jump shrug (JS), an exercise similar to the HC but without the catch phase. For individuals training to improve lower-body power for sports other than competitive weightlifting, one can propose to utilize the JS since it is easier to learn, while providing similar lower-body power production and training stimulus as the HC. However, a comparison of these 2 exercises has not been performed in order to make this claim. PURPOSE: To compare the kinematic and kinetic profiles of the HC and JS at 40, 60 and 80% of one rep max (1RM) of the HC. METHODS: 18 college-age athletes (16 mem, 2 women; age, 21.8 ? 1.9 yrs; height, 178. 1 ? 6.2 cm; weight, 89.0 ? 13.9 kg; 1RM HC, 92.2 ? 15.7 kg) volunteered for the study. All subjects had used the HC regularly in their training for a minimum of 1 yr. On day 1, 1RM HC testing was performed. Within 2-7 days later, motion analysis and force platform testing on the HC and JS was performed at 40, 60, and 80% of HC 1RM. Exercises were performed in a counter balanced order but the relative intensities were always in the order 40, 60, and 80% within each exercise. All testing was completed on a single day. Peak force, peak velocity (center of mass of the body + bar mass), and peak power produced for each lift at each of the relative intensities were compared. Peak joint angular velocities at the ankle, knee, and hip were also compared.

RESULTS: Repeated measures ANOVA revealed that performance measures were significantly higher during the JS compared to the HC for peak force, peak velocity, and peak power. Analysis at the ankle, knee, and hip joints also showed peak joint angular velocities for JS to be significantly higher than HC in all 3 joints. When comparing the relative intensities, peak velocity and peak power were higher at 40 and 60%, than 80% 1RM with no difference between 40 and 60% 1RM. CONCLUSION: Performing the JS at intensities between 40 and 60% 1RM of the HC creates higher loading and joint angular velocities for developing power compared to using the HC at similar intensities.

PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS: The JS is a simple task to master as compared to the HC and is typically a lead-up exercise used to teach the HC. According to our results the use of the JS in weekly programming may create a greater training stimulus for developing overall power than using the HC alone. In addition, teaching or supervising the performance of the HC may be limited by time or ratios of coaches to athletes. When athletes are not training for competitive weightlifting, where the catch of the HC is important to learn, consider performing the JS as part of the explosive training program. Funding for this project was received in a grant from the Graduate Student Research, Service and Education Leadership Grant Program at the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LBSS on December 03, 2010, 09:57:36 am
Huh. Where did you find the study?
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: DamienZ on December 03, 2010, 10:06:46 am
I read it some time ago and just remembered it.
http://training.fitness.com/weight-training/jump-shrug-vs-power-clean-research-28204.html (http://training.fitness.com/weight-training/jump-shrug-vs-power-clean-research-28204.html)

i read it elsewhere, but i cant find it again...
Title: Things to take note of
Post by: steven-miller on December 04, 2010, 08:18:58 am
I see several problems with this research regarding the practical implications. What did the study reveal? Power output was higher in the jump shrug for very low weights than it was with the same low weights when the powerclean was performed. The question that has to be asked in this context is whether your training should consist of powercleaning with 60% of your max in the first place? Well, I don't think so. I wonder what the results would have been at 80%, 90% and 95% of 1rm.

Now why are those findings not very surprising.... It's not that you can't produce a lot of power with 60% of your 1rm in the powerclean, it's just that you don't have to with this light of a weight. Increasing power in the pull also means having to work more in the catch phase. Of course as an athlete experienced with that exercise you are aware of that fact and you won't see a need to pull harder than you have to. Again, try the same with 95% of your max and some lifters with decent technique and you will probably see how the jump shrug will hardly be an as effective exercise, especially if you also consider scalability. I will say it again and again until people will start to comprehend what that means. If you cannot scale progress in an exercise, you will not know when to use more weight and if you are unaware of your potential progress in one exercise, you cannot possibly relate its execution to performance gains on the field. In other words, if you have been doing jump shrugs with the same weight for 8 weeks and happen to jump higher, you cannot possibly suggest that this exercise has been the cause. If you would use a hang snatch and increased your work weights and observed that you jump higher after progress in that exercise has been made, it would make a lot more sense to attribute that progress to that part of your training.
Now why is that important? It is important because we have to learn to differentiate between what makes effective training and what does not for ourselves.

And we have to do so because exercise science apparently cannot.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LanceSTS on December 04, 2010, 01:12:40 pm
  It doesnt look like the study took into account the shock benefits provided by strong eccentric overload during the catch phase of the clean, not provided by the jump shrug either.  Jumping a weight to a certain height, then pulling the body under it at very high speeds, is a big eccentric overload at those joint angles similar to jumping.  You dont get this with jump shrugs.  

  Also, of course you can create higher numbers with the jump shrug on the concentric than you can on a light clean, you have to gauge the amount of power you put into the bar on the clean or the bar comes up too high to catch properly.  It would be interesting if they tried the same power output experiment on the concentric portion of a power snatch vs a jump shrug as well.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Raptor on December 04, 2010, 01:17:01 pm
I for one feel the snatch as a much more natural body movement than a clean.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: steven-miller on December 05, 2010, 07:04:33 am
Why is that? You won't tell the story with your long forearms now, will you?  ;D
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Raptor on December 06, 2010, 05:55:09 am
It just is much more natural... I have no idea exactly why, but...

I feel it's a more "complete" extension. In the clean I feel getting the bar to the chest instead of "throwing the bar over the head" is a "partial movement", like you have to stop from the extension. I know that's not the case, but that's how I feel about it.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Kellyb on December 07, 2010, 01:15:19 pm
Have you been doing the snatch lately Raptor?
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Raptor on December 07, 2010, 04:01:27 pm
Yes I am... nothing fancy, I'm using 30 kg for the moment... but it's great in terms of movement, so natural. I'm still kind of afraid to use more weight (maybe it's not such a good idea afterall until my form is great) - but I definitely do them better form wise than cleans. In the clean, I can NEVER EVER keep the elbows forward... if I get one elbow forward like I'm supposed to, the other one must be perpendicular to the floor. It can't go forward ONE BIT no matter what you do. Weird stuff to say the least, I have no idea what this means in terms of flexibility (what muscle is inflexible).

So I either do the catch with the elbows perpendicular to the floor and all the weight being amortized by the hands/elbows (since the bar is catched on the chest and not on the deltoids) or I don't do the catch at all... I don't know. I haven't found anybody to answer that question about the inflexibility (or maybe I should widen the grip but that doesn't correct it either).

Anyway, the snatch feels so much more "athletic" if you will.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 08, 2011, 11:40:47 am
If I was ever trying to develop my VJ, Jump shrug would be high priority for sure.







Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Username on March 09, 2011, 10:15:19 am
This abstract is not from a published study. Furthermore, there are glaring flaws within the methodology. I would advise that people read Cormie's research from 2007 and 2008.


Quote
OMPARISON OF POWER PRODUCTION IN THE HANG CLEAN VS. JUMP SHRUG AT DIFFERENT RELATIVE INTENSITIES

Although the hang power clean (HC) is utilized in many strength-power training programs, it is an exercise that requires high skill. In addition, regular supervision is often required to assure proper lifting technique is being performed. Many variations and lead-up exercises are used to teach the HC. One exercise used to progressively teach the HC is the jump shrug (JS), an exercise similar to the HC but without the catch phase. For individuals training to improve lower-body power for sports other than competitive weightlifting, one can propose to utilize the JS since it is easier to learn, while providing similar lower-body power production and training stimulus as the HC. However, a comparison of these 2 exercises has not been performed in order to make this claim.


 PURPOSE: To compare the kinematic and kinetic profiles of the HC and JS at 40, 60 and 80% of one rep max (1RM) of the HC. METHODS: 18 college-age athletes (16 mem, 2 women; age, 21.8 ? 1.9 yrs; height, 178. 1 ? 6.2 cm; weight, 89.0 ? 13.9 kg; 1RM HC, 92.2 ? 15.7 kg) volunteered for the study. All subjects had used the HC regularly in their training for a minimum of 1 yr. On day 1, 1RM HC testing was performed. Within 2-7 days later, motion analysis and force platform testing on the HC and JS was performed at 40, 60, and 80% of HC 1RM. Exercises were performed in a counter balanced order but the relative intensities were always in the order 40, 60, and 80% within each exercise. All testing was completed on a single day. Peak force, peak velocity (center of mass of the body + bar mass), and peak power produced for each lift at each of the relative intensities were compared. Peak joint angular velocities at the ankle, knee, and hip were also compared.

RESULTS: Repeated measures ANOVA revealed that performance measures were significantly higher during the JS compared to the HC for peak force, peak velocity, and peak power. Analysis at the ankle, knee, and hip joints also showed peak joint angular velocities for JS to be significantly higher than HC in all 3 joints. When comparing the relative intensities, peak velocity and peak power were higher at 40 and 60%, than 80% 1RM with no difference between 40 and 60% 1RM. CONCLUSION: Performing the JS at intensities between 40 and 60% 1RM of the HC creates higher loading and joint angular velocities for developing power compared to using the HC at similar intensities.

PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS: The JS is a simple task to master as compared to the HC and is typically a lead-up exercise used to teach the HC. According to our results the use of the JS in weekly programming may create a greater training stimulus for developing overall power than using the HC alone. In addition, teaching or supervising the performance of the HC may be limited by time or ratios of coaches to athletes. When athletes are not training for competitive weightlifting, where the catch of the HC is important to learn, consider performing the JS as part of the explosive training program. Funding for this project was received in a grant from the Graduate Student Research, Service and Education Leadership Grant Program at the University of Wisconsin-La Crosse.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 09, 2011, 10:44:41 am
Just pulled up a couple of vids.

What are the best way to perform these?. Partial from hang or full ROM?.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExPjWaUbzWY



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLQZWwS21q0
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: Username on March 09, 2011, 01:43:11 pm
PPO is still in press so I won't discuss that,  but mid thigh produces sig greater values for both VGRF and RFD (Comfort, Allen & Graham-Smith, 2011).
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LanceSTS on March 09, 2011, 04:03:04 pm
PPO is still in press so I won't discuss that,  but mid thigh produces sig greater values for both VGRF and RFD (Comfort, Allen & Graham-Smith, 2011).


  I agree with this.  Most athletes will inherently end up in a bad power position when trying to go from the floor, and all of the benefits to athletes seeking power improvement in their sport are coming from that position, the pull from the floor is a part of the sport of olympic weightlifting so obviously for that specific goal things are different. 

  There are also unique benefits of the catch phase of the snatch and clean not present in the jump shrug, which not only provide solid feedback to the lifter when progress in power was made due to a set "marker" they must reach to complete the lift, but the shock benefits of catching and stopping the bar in a quarter squat position are very beneficial as well imo.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: vag on March 10, 2011, 04:33:22 am
Lance , do you recommend this depth for the squat after catching , something higher ( like half or quarter squat ) or whatever comes/feels natural?

edit : exrx.net won't allow the gif embeding so i'll use a pic:
(http://www.glasgowschoolofsportbellahoustonacademy.co.uk/Images/SupportServicesImages/Power%20Clean%20Techniques.JPG)
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 10, 2011, 07:56:47 am
Comparisons of Peak Ground Reaction Force and Rate of Force Development During Variations of the Power Clean.

Original Link: http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/publishahead/Comparisons_of_Peak_Ground_Reaction_Force_and_Rate.98991.aspx


Quote
Abstract.

Comfort, P, Allen, M, and Graham-Smith, P. Comparisons of peak ground reaction force and rate of force development during variations of the power clean. J Strength Cond Res 24(x): 000-000, 2010-The aim of this investigation was to determine the differences in vertical ground reaction forces and rate of force development (RFD) during variations of the power clean. Elite rugby league players (n = 11; age 21 +/- 1.63 years; height 181.56 +/- 2.61 cm; body mass 93.65 +/- 6.84 kg) performed 1 set of 3 repetitions of the power clean, hang-power clean, midthigh power clean, or midthigh clean pull, using 60% of 1-repetition maximum power clean, in a randomized order, while standing on a force platform. Differences in peak vertical ground reaction forces (Fz) and instantaneous RFD between lifts were analyzed via 1-way analysis of variance and Bonferroni post hoc analysis. Statistical analysis revealed a significantly (p < 0.001) greater peak Fz during the midthigh power clean (2,801.7 +/- 195.4 N) and the midthigh clean pull (2,880.2 +/- 236.2 N) compared to both the power clean (2,306.24 +/- 240.47 N) and the hang-power clean (2,442.9 +/- 293.2 N). The midthigh power clean (14,655.8 +/- 4,535.1 N[middle dot]s-1) and the midthigh clean pull (15,320.6 +/- 3,533.3 N[middle dot]s-1) also demonstrated significantly (p < 0.001) greater instantaneous RFD when compared to both the power clean (8,839.7 +/- 2,940.4 N[middle dot]s-1) and the hang-power clean (9,768.9 +/- 4,012.4 N[middle dot]s-1). From the findings of this study, when training to maximize peak Fz and RFD the midthigh power clean and midthigh clean pull appear to be the most advantageous variations of the power clean to perform.

(C) 2011 National Strength and Conditioning Association.

Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LanceSTS on March 10, 2011, 10:10:43 am
Lance , do you recommend this depth for the squat after catching , something higher ( like half or quarter squat ) or whatever comes/feels natural?

edit : exrx.net won't allow the gif embeding so i'll use a pic:
(http://www.glasgowschoolofsportbellahoustonacademy.co.uk/Images/SupportServicesImages/Power%20Clean%20Techniques.JPG)


Yea Vag, I 100% believe half or quarter squat catch is going to be more beneficial for most athletes.  The height that you catch and reverse the weight is much more specific to that point in the range of motion for jumping, as well as the focus on extremely powerful triple extension to get the height needed to catch the bar at a higher depth.  When doing the full lifts there is much more focus on getting under the bar quickly and many athletes trying to implement these lifts will end up cutting the second pull (triple extension) short, in order to start getting under the bar more quickly at a full depth. 
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LBSS on March 10, 2011, 12:18:26 pm
Lance , do you recommend this depth for the squat after catching , something higher ( like half or quarter squat ) or whatever comes/feels natural?

edit : exrx.net won't allow the gif embeding so i'll use a pic:
(http://www.glasgowschoolofsportbellahoustonacademy.co.uk/Images/SupportServicesImages/Power%20Clean%20Techniques.JPG)


Yea Vag, I 100% believe half or quarter squat catch is going to be more beneficial for most athletes.  The height that you catch and reverse the weight is much more specific to that point in the range of motion for jumping, as well as the focus on extremely powerful triple extension to get the height needed to catch the bar at a higher depth.  When doing the full lifts there is much more focus on getting under the bar quickly and many athletes trying to implement these lifts will end up cutting the second pull (triple extension) short, in order to start getting under the bar more quickly at a full depth. 

Not to mention, is hard as fuck to learn the full, competition-style version. If nothing else, the level of mobility/stability you need in your hips, core and shoulders to handle competitive weights is pretty incredible and probably not specifically necessary for anyone but a competitive lifter. As has already been discussed ad nauseum on this site, you don't need to be able to do an honest ATG squat to be a great athlete. But you do to be an elite oly lifter.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: vag on March 10, 2011, 01:35:14 pm
Thanks Lance & LBSS, i agree with both.
I asked because I experimented a little with them and it felt much more natural & power oriented to stay in a half/quarter depth. Going ATG ruins the triple extension. It also significantly reduces the amount of weight one could use.
Great exercise , gonna fit it in my schedules for sure!
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: LanceSTS on March 10, 2011, 01:37:34 pm
Lance , do you recommend this depth for the squat after catching , something higher ( like half or quarter squat ) or whatever comes/feels natural?

edit : exrx.net won't allow the gif embeding so i'll use a pic:
(http://www.glasgowschoolofsportbellahoustonacademy.co.uk/Images/SupportServicesImages/Power%20Clean%20Techniques.JPG)


Yea Vag, I 100% believe half or quarter squat catch is going to be more beneficial for most athletes.  The height that you catch and reverse the weight is much more specific to that point in the range of motion for jumping, as well as the focus on extremely powerful triple extension to get the height needed to catch the bar at a higher depth.  When doing the full lifts there is much more focus on getting under the bar quickly and many athletes trying to implement these lifts will end up cutting the second pull (triple extension) short, in order to start getting under the bar more quickly at a full depth.  

Not to mention, is hard as fuck to learn the full, competition-style version. If nothing else, the level of mobility/stability you need in your hips, core and shoulders to handle competitive weights is pretty incredible and probably not specifically necessary for anyone but a competitive lifter. As has already been discussed ad nauseum on this site, you don't need to be able to do an honest ATG squat to be a great athlete. But you do to be an elite oly lifter.

Thats exactly right, as an athlete, especially focused specifically on improving jumping, you need to be able to create insane forces and stabilize insane forces at a very specific range of motion.  Alot is said about "well your power clean is limited by your squat so just squat more" which is bullshit in reality, your FULL clean is limited by your FRONT SQUAT, which is a world away from a quarter squat range of motion, and then you have to factor in the speed factor.  Some of the most explosive athletes I have tested could hang clean more than they could full squat and their hang snatch was miles and miles away from what their overhead squat would be.  Of course athletes need to constantly progress their squat higher and higher, but there are definite benefits to getting stronger at a speed and range of motion more specific to the task you are trying to improve.  
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 16, 2011, 10:49:13 am
I think I have just found the king of all posterior chain exercises to end all.

Snatch Grip-Pulls.  :headbang:

Get the hips low enough and the chest up. These are major.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQhsNeMEZeQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcTAY5eL1Y
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: DamienZ on March 16, 2011, 11:01:03 am
you could do it without the snatch grip by standing on a box
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 24, 2011, 11:01:29 am
Variation.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqPs6G0IuY
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on April 13, 2011, 09:50:58 pm
A useful video for those interested in the Olympic lifts, training for sport, and resistance training in general. The video is in Russian but has some great exercises and training means and methods. It requires the Silverlight application so make sure you have it if you can't see the video.


Original Link: http://tv.sportedu.ru/video/metodika-sovershenstvovaniya-tekhnicheskogo-masterstva-tyazheloatletov?p=sl
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: tychver on April 13, 2011, 10:21:07 pm
I think I have just found the king of all posterior chain exercises to end all.

Snatch Grip-Pulls.  :headbang:

Get the hips low enough and the chest up. These are major.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQhsNeMEZeQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqcTAY5eL1Y

For explosive posterior chain strength as a non weightlifter you're much better doing squats, RDLs and power snatches from the hang.

Major flexibility and technique issues with doing heavy pulls from the floor.
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: tychver on April 13, 2011, 10:24:51 pm
Variation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqPs6G0IuY

That's some pretty bad clean technique really :|
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: DamienZ on April 14, 2011, 06:35:43 am
Variation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqPs6G0IuY

That's some pretty bad clean technique really :|

haha, how she just "negative bicepscurls" the bar down is a joke! If she tried a reasonable weight she would fail so much
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: ccameron on April 14, 2011, 08:32:10 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HqPs6G0IuY

I've seen these before it is more of a drill for getting aggressively under the bar than it is a tool for sports performance. I'd consider it strictly a technique drill.


Generally pretty useless anyway since the best way to get confident and quick underneath the bar is to drill heavy %s of the lifts repeatedly once your form is decent. I highly doubt this kid learnt how to get under the bar by doing those with 30kgs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X07opRChfqA
Title: Re: Power pull vs power clean
Post by: tychver on April 14, 2011, 07:11:46 pm
I've seen these before it is more of a drill for getting aggressively under the bar than it is a tool for sports performance. I'd consider it strictly a technique drill.


Generally pretty useless anyway since the best way to get confident and quick underneath the bar is to drill heavy %s of the lifts repeatedly once your form is decent. I highly doubt this kid learnt how to get under the bar by doing those with 30kgs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X07opRChfqA

Clean from the high hang or from dead hang are good technique exercises yeah. Not the way she does it though.

And yeah, speed under the bar is generally buit with hours and hours of practice with heavy lifts constantly trying to improve.