Author Topic: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat  (Read 6946 times)

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steven-miller

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Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« on: May 17, 2010, 12:26:00 pm »
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Hey there,

what do you guys think about these exercises for vertical jump training purposes? I remember reading Kelly Baggets opinion about the jump squat being an easy to learn alternative for the olympic lifts and there derivates. But what would be the best solution, if technique wasn't the problem? I believe that learning powercleans for example is very much possible even without a coach. I think it is not an easy exercise and the powercleans will probably not turn out perfect. But they don't have to be to be an effective training tool. Also one could argue, that more weight can safely be used in the powerclean than in the jump squat. At least I would not necessarily like to jump with my powerclean PR weight on the back.

So what do you guys think?

Edit: What about speed squats? Haven't read about those in a while....
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 12:28:06 pm by steven-miller »

adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 01:34:02 pm »
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Hey there,

what do you guys think about these exercises for vertical jump training purposes? I remember reading Kelly Baggets opinion about the jump squat being an easy to learn alternative for the olympic lifts and there derivates. But what would be the best solution, if technique wasn't the problem? I believe that learning powercleans for example is very much possible even without a coach. I think it is not an easy exercise and the powercleans will probably not turn out perfect. But they don't have to be to be an effective training tool. Also one could argue, that more weight can safely be used in the powerclean than in the jump squat. At least I would not necessarily like to jump with my powerclean PR weight on the back.

So what do you guys think?

Edit: What about speed squats? Haven't read about those in a while....

I don't think it's an either or type of thing, because for sure, properly done olympic lifts can be VERY beneficial. If you have good technique and good coaching (either by ones self or by an actual coach), then sure I'm all for them. I'm personally more for REA squat/jump squat/clean pulls etc, but that's because i'm not an OL coach nor can i really prescribe them over the internet with confidence.

Olympic liters do make use of jump squats, depth jumps, and clean pulls, so REA squats would be another lift they could incorporate. Athletes that do not olympic lift should definitely safely make use of a few or all of these lifts: jump squats, depth jumps, REA squats, clean pulls.

People just shouldn't neglect lifts that really target explosive strength, some form of maintenance always has to be there, which is intensified during certain phases of training. All to often people neglect these lifts then incorporate them only during those phases, which is wrong imo, because your experience with those explosive lifts has not been properly progressed and maintained.

Jump squats, DJ's, REA squats, and clean pulls are ALL very good activation/PAP exercises prior to squatting/heavy lifting, so even if one doesn't believe they help improve anything physiologically (which i disagree with), then they at least wake up the CNS & have a stimulatory effect on squatting etc via post-activation-potentiation.




As for speed squats, not the biggest fan, but, they would be a progression prior to doing REA squats/jump squats in someone who is not familiar with those kinds of lifts. So, their purpose for me is to use to prepare the body for REA/jump squatting. REA squats have the 'small altitude drop' with very ballistic transition from eccentric to isometric to concentric, jump squats have a less ballistic transition because there is no ADA, but, they have full triple extension without deceleration at the top. So both of those lifts complement each other pretty good.

peace man nice Q!

zgin

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 03:21:49 pm »
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i'd ditch jump squats because they are painful, boring, and nobody likes doing them. You dont pick up things as well when u dont enjoy/ dread them
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steven-miller

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 04:31:44 pm »
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People just shouldn't neglect lifts that really target explosive strength, some form of maintenance always has to be there, which is intensified during certain phases of training. All to often people neglect these lifts then incorporate them only during those phases, which is wrong imo, because your experience with those explosive lifts has not been properly progressed and maintained.

Agreed! Most power exercises also won't stress the body too much so they can easily be integrated in any strength program for example without hurting gains at all.

As for speed squats, not the biggest fan, but, they would be a progression prior to doing REA squats/jump squats in someone who is not familiar with those kinds of lifts. So, their purpose for me is to use to prepare the body for REA/jump squatting. REA squats have the 'small altitude drop' with very ballistic transition from eccentric to isometric to concentric, jump squats have a less ballistic transition because there is no ADA, but, they have full triple extension without deceleration at the top. So both of those lifts complement each other pretty good.


What do you dislike about speed squats and what is ADA? ^^

adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2010, 04:37:41 am »
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People just shouldn't neglect lifts that really target explosive strength, some form of maintenance always has to be there, which is intensified during certain phases of training. All to often people neglect these lifts then incorporate them only during those phases, which is wrong imo, because your experience with those explosive lifts has not been properly progressed and maintained.

Agreed! Most power exercises also won't stress the body too much so they can easily be integrated in any strength program for example without hurting gains at all.

well it depends on the intensity of course, for example, 18 inch depth drops from 2-3x5 don't create an insane amount of fatigue/"damage" in a conditioned athlete, they do however really wake up the calfs and give you some extra pop. Now make that 30-42", depending on the athlete's capabilities, and you have alot of cns fatigue/actual myofibral damage/fasciae damage etc.

for people who hold off on explosive stuff and put it into a block, i think they should be doing some kind of maintenance in the preceding block, and ramping up the intensity as they get closer to their explosive block.. too often they just jump right in during the explosive block, or ramp up then.. dno just alot of wasted time if you ask me, easy to maintain efficiency on a few exercises.

word!

Quote
As for speed squats, not the biggest fan, but, they would be a progression prior to doing REA squats/jump squats in someone who is not familiar with those kinds of lifts. So, their purpose for me is to use to prepare the body for REA/jump squatting. REA squats have the 'small altitude drop' with very ballistic transition from eccentric to isometric to concentric, jump squats have a less ballistic transition because there is no ADA, but, they have full triple extension without deceleration at the top. So both of those lifts complement each other pretty good.


What do you dislike about speed squats and what is ADA? ^^

ADA = altitude drop

on an REA squat, there's some level of free fall, it could be 1/4th, 1/2, deep, etc, depending on your ability/preference.. so basically that drop acts like a 'shock', causing greater motor unit activity than would be experienced had you just lowered fast.

i don't like speed squat because i think REA squat/jump squat/clean pull (or jumping clean pull) do a better job.. all three of those are ballistic in nature yet still overloaded. With a speed squat there's just too much deceleration going on as you reach lockout, that's why i dont like it.. that deceleration is fine during a very heavy squat, as it's way different than VJ.. speed squat also lacks the qualities of REA squat (the ada), jump squat /clean pull (the full acceleration).

peace man!

Natho

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2010, 04:45:57 am »
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i'd ditch jump squats because they are painful, boring, and nobody likes doing them. You dont pick up things as well when u dont enjoy/ dread them

I agree, they are very painful, when i add them in training i would always be pissed off if there the nest exercise (wrong attitude) They take so much energy out of you......but has anyone thought that becuase fast twitch fibres fatige alot quicker then other fibres, is this why jumpsquats are so fatiging (are jumpsquats good at developing FTMF?)
Current highest touch = 11'4" (37"-38")
Squat = 140kg x5
             160KgX1
Weight = 97kg
Height = 6'3"
Reach = 8'2"-8'3"

adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2010, 04:48:42 am »
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i'd ditch jump squats because they are painful, boring, and nobody likes doing them. You dont pick up things as well when u dont enjoy/ dread them

I agree, they are very painful, when i add them in training i would always be pissed off if there the nest exercise (wrong attitude) They take so much energy out of you......but has anyone thought that becuase fast twitch fibres fatige alot quicker then other fibres, is this why jumpsquats are so fatiging (are jumpsquats good at developing FTMF?)

i reset between each rep, and if you start out at 25% 1RM and progress slowly towards 35-40% 1RM, they should feel fine..

ya well they are a good exercise at recruiting FT MU's for sure, they enhance the explosive strength characteristics of the muscle/nervous system.

cya

Natho

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2010, 05:09:59 am »
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i reset between each rep, and if you start out at 25% 1RM and progress slowly towards 35-40% 1RM, they should feel fine..

ya well they are a good exercise at recruiting FT MU's for sure, they enhance the explosive strength characteristics of the muscle/nervous system.

cya

yeah resetting sounds good though i still love rythmic....ever tries rythmic darqman?
Current highest touch = 11'4" (37"-38")
Squat = 140kg x5
             160KgX1
Weight = 97kg
Height = 6'3"
Reach = 8'2"-8'3"

adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 05:38:29 am »
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i reset between each rep, and if you start out at 25% 1RM and progress slowly towards 35-40% 1RM, they should feel fine..

ya well they are a good exercise at recruiting FT MU's for sure, they enhance the explosive strength characteristics of the muscle/nervous system.

cya

yeah resetting sounds good though i still love rythmic....ever tries rythmic darqman?

ya, i liked rhythmic but i kept it even lighter, around 20% or so.. for the heavier stuff i liked resetting..

one rhythmic hopping exercise i liked is stiff leg hops (or pogos), it can be overloaded with a 20 lb vest or 20 lb bar etc.. it works very well without weight, and are best done jumping backwards stiff legged (you end up staying in place), but here's a vid of barbell pogo's linear:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9xKO0UBeNQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9xKO0UBeNQ</a>

i don't think i ever uploaded the rhythmic jump squats i did.. didn't do them too long, but i did like them (light).

gn im off to sleep!

steven-miller

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 01:22:01 pm »
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ADA = altitude drop

on an REA squat, there's some level of free fall, it could be 1/4th, 1/2, deep, etc, depending on your ability/preference.. so basically that drop acts like a 'shock', causing greater motor unit activity than would be experienced had you just lowered fast.

But you would have to land after a jump squat, too, no?

adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 01:23:37 pm »
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ADA = altitude drop

on an REA squat, there's some level of free fall, it could be 1/4th, 1/2, deep, etc, depending on your ability/preference.. so basically that drop acts like a 'shock', causing greater motor unit activity than would be experienced had you just lowered fast.

But you would have to land after a jump squat, too, no?

ya of course, but that isn't a focal point of the exercise, but ya you definitely get an ADA there.. with REA, the emphasis is on transition from that landing as explosively as possible.

but yea you're right.

AlexV

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 08:41:28 pm »
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ADA = altitude drop

on an REA squat, there's some level of free fall, it could be 1/4th, 1/2, deep, etc, depending on your ability/preference.. so basically that drop acts like a 'shock', causing greater motor unit activity than would be experienced had you just lowered fast.

But you would have to land after a jump squat, too, no?

I was just thinking this.  Multiple response jump squats (rhythmic) have tons of ADA involved.  The resetting is what kills the REA transition.
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adarqui

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Re: Powerclean vs. Powersnatch vs. Jump Squat
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 12:01:27 am »
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ADA = altitude drop

on an REA squat, there's some level of free fall, it could be 1/4th, 1/2, deep, etc, depending on your ability/preference.. so basically that drop acts like a 'shock', causing greater motor unit activity than would be experienced had you just lowered fast.

But you would have to land after a jump squat, too, no?

I was just thinking this.  Multiple response jump squats (rhythmic) have tons of ADA involved.  The resetting is what kills the REA transition.

ya, but I always prescribe them single response so that's what I was referring too, should have made it more clear.

cya