Author Topic: RVJ on the fast break  (Read 1866 times)

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Coges

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RVJ on the fast break
« on: August 30, 2015, 08:20:53 pm »
+1
Instead of hijacking Maxent's log I thought I'd post this here. I'm in a similar situation to Maxent in that I've never dunked in a game on a fast break. I've tried quite a few times but have found that it's that last couple of steps that are problematic after such a long run up. I can seemingly get much higher off 2-4 steps but normally there's so much traffic in that situation that dunking is not an option (unfortunately I don't quite have Chris's VJ yet).

Any ideas on how to train the RVJ in this manner? Is it as simple as doing half and full court lay-ups and attempting a dunk at the end?

Also, reading through some old Todday material he cited hamstring strength and the inability to transfer force behind knee collapse (if I interpreted this correctly). I know this refers to bounding but I would imagine RSLVJ would be a similar issue.

Quote
Tons of guys have problems with the buckling of the leg when beginning bounding or bounding at max intensity, its usually caused by the hamstrings not being strong/powerful enough to transfer the force up to the hips

Again, is this as simple as training the pos chain more to prevent this from occurring or are there better methods?
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ChrisM

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 09:08:08 pm »
+1
Half court drills will definitely help (helps conditioning too!). When I can jump again I'll check but I *think* that just maybe I drop a tad bitnout of a dead sprint to maybe 85% speed before a ME RVJ off 2 feet in a fastbreal situation.

To be 100% honest with you I think everyone does. Ive noticed the elite NBA 2 foot guys (VC, Gerald Green, etc) cut their speed slighlty then appear to re-accelerate into their plant.
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Coges

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 10:08:53 pm »
0
Thx mate. I do need the conditioning too.

Yeah I normally go off 1 on the fast break but am working both SL and DL at the moment. I'll start doing some half court drills as I have only ever really done them from the 3pt line.

I'm always more likely to go off 1 but I'm so cautious going into the plant as I don't want the knee to collapse. Especially in a game situation where scores matter.

Yeah just having a look and I see that pretty much everyone slows just a bit.
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Merrick

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 11:17:44 pm »
+1
Yeah like you both said, most people slow down slightly so that they can set up their optimal 3-5 steps they would normally do in practice...

And the hamstring thing can be a factor for the single leg jump, but i doubt it for the DLRVJ.  I would say just really practice running half and full court, slightly slowing down to set up your 2-4 steps you are accustomed to .  Do it enough and it will eventually be 1 smooth motion like the NBA guys

Coges

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 01:22:44 am »
0
Cheers thanks mate. I'm 95% SL jumper so this should help me. It's weird though. I find that if I do a full or half court lay-up and just do it naturally I get some decent height but when I try and put that extra 10% in I have issues.

It's going to feel like I'm 15 again and doing full court lay-ups for days. I remember when playing rep ball in my teens as a team we would have to make 100 full court lay-ups in a row. Inevitably we'd get to 70 or 80 and someone would miss. Happened in the 90's once too which was a bitch. Ah...the good old days. 
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maxent

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 03:58:22 am »
0
It's weird though. I find that if I do a full or half court lay-up and just do it naturally I get some decent height but when I try and put that extra 10% in I have issues.

^that's a great observation. if i think of a layup to end a fast break, i'll invariably go off one (though im a better DL jumper by far) and i'll still get good height. But with a dunk i just feel so alien approaching with any kind of speed that it feels nothing like a dunk attempt ought to. Im not even saying it's mental, obviously the physical situation is very different in a 2-3 step dunk attempt vs a fast break one. I'd like to do some tests and figure out how to break the fast break dunk into trainable pieces and work at it. This friday hopefully, i'll have a court to myself and can take video. If there is anything i should be experimenting with/testing let me know.
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Raptor

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 05:48:37 am »
+1
You need to take it step by step. If you need a lot of power to dunk it, you will stiffen up. So you need to take it gradually and see where (at what point of "tension" or speed) you start stiffening up. Usually people start muscling the movement and "pushing" like in a standing vertical jump instead of being reactive, because they're not reactive enough when trying to jump maximally (in translation - they start trying to use muscle power instead of a fluid movement to achieve the desired height needed for a dunk).

Back in the day when I was light and weak I could usually dunk just from a long run-up only. 10 steps or so, at very high speeds. Meaning, almost no actual voluntary muscle power at all, just using the speed that I have accumulated during the run-up and just converting it to vertical "speed".

But as I got stronger my run-up did transition into a acceleration-type approach, where yes, I have to decelerate and "make my steps". More muscle, less reactivity.

Coges

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 08:30:45 am »
0
It's weird though. I find that if I do a full or half court lay-up and just do it naturally I get some decent height but when I try and put that extra 10% in I have issues.

^that's a great observation. if i think of a layup to end a fast break, i'll invariably go off one (though im a better DL jumper by far) and i'll still get good height. But with a dunk i just feel so alien approaching with any kind of speed that it feels nothing like a dunk attempt ought to. Im not even saying it's mental, obviously the physical situation is very different in a 2-3 step dunk attempt vs a fast break one. I'd like to do some tests and figure out how to break the fast break dunk into trainable pieces and work at it. This friday hopefully, i'll have a court to myself and can take video. If there is anything i should be experimenting with/testing let me know.

It was your post and this article that got me thinking about it

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/lastlittlebit.html

I believe it is a mental thing. When I know I'm going to attempt a dunk my form changes completely. Less speed, more knee bend (as Raptor says below), more forward lean, upper body tension. The good lay-ups feel effortless. I had a finger roll a few weeks back that I certainly could of dunked but didn't even think about it at the time and got major height.

I like the idea of doing lay-ups and getting comfortable with increasing the speed and height over time. I'm going to head to the courts tomorrow to try out. I think it's just going to be reps and reps of half and full court lay-ups. It kind of seems too simple to be true but if you can get that smooth and gradually increase the height and speed of approach and also sort out the take off zone. I tend to get too close when taking off so that's something to work on too.
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ChrisM

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 01:49:30 pm »
+1
Im going to second/third/fourth the mental aspect, especially for someone like me who is a much better DL jumper. Ive noticed lately (especially last night, tons of youtube vids of SL jumpers and sprinters) how RELAXED they all are and I can see this dur8ng game situations for myself. I can jump damn near 40" off one in a game when its subconscious and Ive always thought it was simply that, subconscious, a reaction to game stimuli. However, I was watching vids and I thought back to my old track coaches saying relaxation is key and it all makes more sense now.

Why cant i jump 40" off 1 in practice? Im too tense, im literally trying to hard. The key is too relax and let your body flow which Ive somehow accomplished in DL form despite having more volume of SL jumps over the years. :/ Hmmm.
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Raptor

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 08:15:24 pm »
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For me, I usually always take off from too far out, and I have to stretch a lot with my hand extended forward instead of extended up. That is a loss of a tremendous amount of height.

Coges

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 09:41:06 pm »
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I went for a shoot around yesterday and attempted to do the half/full court thing. Left knee (jumping leg) was bugging me so I cut that short but my big question is are we ever going to be able to replicate the game environment. Obviously there's far more stimulation going on during a game and that extra excitement no doubt produces better results. Maybe I just need to train and get my VJ to a level to which the full court lay-up dunk is easy with the knowledge that I should/will jump higher during a game.

I definitely think it's still worthwhile pursuing but I have shelved doing it too much till I have resolved my knee issues. 
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Raptor

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 07:24:17 am »
+1
Agreed. No way you reproduce that on an empty court. You basically need to play competitively to get benefits.

maxent

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Re: RVJ on the fast break
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2015, 02:43:29 am »
+2
I got my first fb dunk the other day, didn't mention. It was at training. No was chasing me. I think there was a late, faint foul fall i didn't hear. Still counts?
Making a new strength setpoint of 75/100/150 on OHP/BP/BS.