Author Topic: Squat vs Deadlift.  (Read 16636 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14552
  • Respect: +2469
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2011, 03:50:18 am »
0
All the high jumpers I know half squat. I've never ever seen them full squat for as long as I've gone to the track. Now I don't know if they built their strength over time with full squats and then went with half squats for specialization/specificity, but even those that are weak half squat. Probably because of structure.

They all use high bar though and narrow stance.

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2011, 05:42:40 pm »
0
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.


Ben Johnson's PR's in the weightroom.

Squat: 2x6x600 lbs.
Bench: 2x450 lbs.
Deadlift: 500 lbs in 1984 (but never included it after that).
Clean: His clean was very poor technically, so kept away from it.

At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.

Ben's brother was a powerlifter.


His starts were just insane.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k</a>
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 05:45:12 pm by $ick3nin.vend3tta »

tychver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2011, 05:55:03 pm »
0
[At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.

From what I heard Ben was running at close to 200lbs in 88.

Kingfish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2154
  • Respect: +1491
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2011, 06:03:07 pm »
0
Quote from: ADARQUI
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.

pc

as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.

i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D
5'10" | 210lbs | 39 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 545x1| standing VJ - 40"|

absolute unit

Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

$ick3nin.vend3tta

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 333
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2011, 06:10:00 pm »
0
From what I heard Ben was running at close to 200lbs in 88.

According to the Charlie Francis forum, Ben's BW was 173lbs in Seoul.

Ah whatever, the guy could rip.

Raptor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14552
  • Respect: +2469
    • Yahoo Instant Messenger - raptorescu
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2011, 06:22:37 pm »
0
Quote from: ADARQUI
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.

pc

as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.

i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D


Well these are good news. It was expected but it's good to hear them from someone else. There probably is such a thing as "preferred coupling phase depth".

lamp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +30
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2011, 07:24:59 pm »
0
Quote
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.

Ben Johnson's 600 was not off a box and it was for 8, charlie said he wouldn't let him go below that in reps because of risk


the box thing is a common misconception which stems from the video online of ben squatting 400ish to a high-ish box.

That came much later in Ben's career when he was training with someone else.

Charlie himself said this and said that Ben was not squatting to a box.

the squats were slightly above parallel according to Charlie
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 07:26:52 pm by lamp »

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9110
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2011, 04:29:14 am »
0
All the high jumpers I know half squat. I've never ever seen them full squat for as long as I've gone to the track. Now I don't know if they built their strength over time with full squats and then went with half squats for specialization/specificity, but even those that are weak half squat. Probably because of structure.

They all use high bar though and narrow stance.

yup, remember that "vili" guy, dunker, his protege, young high jumper.. he squatted deep, but it was rather astonishing given his leverages, looked really perfect.. but he also has the kid doing crazy heavy quarters.. so ya it does happen rarely, but the keyword is rarely.

one thing this forum does a good job at is sifting through the garbage of "train exactly like an olympic lifter regardless of your build", ie, we don't just say everyone should be ATG'n regardless of structure.. but people on here need to be really pushing the weights up.







when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.


Ben Johnson's PR's in the weightroom.

Squat: 2x6x600 lbs.
Bench: 2x450 lbs.
Deadlift: 500 lbs in 1984 (but never included it after that).
Clean: His clean was very poor technically, so kept away from it.

At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.

Ben's brother was a powerlifter.


His starts were just insane.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k</a>

ya those stats are incredible..

would have loved to see those lifts, shame on people for not video taping.. harry AA FTW.










Quote from: ADARQUI
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.

pc

as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.

i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D


right remember I told you that? I don't think about transitioning anymore, I just do.. I get to a point where my body immediately starts trying to reverse the bar without me even needing to think about it, then i explode.











Quote from: ADARQUI
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.

pc

as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.

i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D


it's like when we do VJ's, RVJ's, etc.. we don't really think about depth, sure at times we do when we're trying to force a certain depth.. but the majority of our jumping happens completely out of our control due to the velocities at hand.. everything is "preprogrammed", so allowing yourself to "squat that way" should be alot more beneficial to jumping imo.. teaching the body to "go deep" vs "teaching it to reverse hard slightly above parallel" seem to be no question in my opinion, i'm going with specificity.... ie teaching the body to reverse at spots more specific to svj/rvj AND recruit more mu's etc at those points.

why override those natural mechanisms is my point.. embrace them and enhance them.








Quote
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.

Ben Johnson's 600 was not off a box and it was for 8, charlie said he wouldn't let him go below that in reps because of risk


the box thing is a common misconception which stems from the video online of ben squatting 400ish to a high-ish box.

That came much later in Ben's career when he was training with someone else.

Charlie himself said this and said that Ben was not squatting to a box.

the squats were slightly above parallel according to Charlie
Well these are good news. It was expected but it's good to hear them from someone else. There probably is such a thing as "preferred coupling phase depth".
[/quote]

ya there's alot of confusion over the issue, lance even pasted something from charlie's FAq/q&A saying ben went below parallel or something.. so there's lots of conflicting reports.. I've read mostly the above parallel accounts and those are what I believe, any lower and i'm chalking it up to exaggeration/embellishing the accomplishment.

the ~500 lb box squat later on in his career was really sloppy, brutal, and scary:

video link in this thread: http://www.adarq.org/forum/400m-sprinting/ben-johnson/


peace

Megatron

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2011, 05:08:50 am »
0
As far as squat depth is concerned, how about something like

3 X 3-5 A2G followed by 2 X 3 quarter squats.

I have been thinking about changing my A2G only squat sessions into above but haven't gotten around to it.

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 34034
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +9110
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2011, 05:24:21 am »
0
As far as squat depth is concerned, how about something like

3 X 3-5 A2G followed by 2 X 3 quarter squats.

I have been thinking about changing my A2G only squat sessions into above but haven't gotten around to it.

sure man, i tell people who are "obsessed" with A2G to dabble in half squat in a few ways:

1. work up sets going ATG, then transition into half, work sets half
2. separate days, ATG on one day, half on another
3. work up using halfs, come back down and finish off with some deeper sets (a few lighter reacclimation lifts prior to the deeper sets)

your idea may be good, it'd work better than 3 x 3-5 A2G followed by 2 x 3 HALF, the quarters won't be as effected as the halfs would be from 3 sets of 3-5 really ball busting sets.. just make sure you work up properly after the atg sets and don't go crazy on quarter's for a while.. give yourself 2 weeks or so just to get accustomed to them, they should feel pretty weird for someone who is used to going atg, it'll feel weird reversing at that depth.

but ya make sure you are prepared for quarters, breathing has to be right (staying tight) and yo uhave to phase them in gradually..

peace

tychver

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2011, 03:39:10 pm »
0
Even oly lifters quarter squat sometimes. We do explosive 1/4 front squats for the jerk. Normally called jerk drives.

lamp

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Respect: +30
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2011, 12:41:24 pm »
0
recent quote on cf about maurice green

Quote
Many of today's top sprinters do not have a heavy emphasis on weightlifting when compared to someone like Ben Johnson or Maurice Greene for that matter (Doc Kreis - when he was still the strength coach at UCLA - told me that he saw Mo doing relatively easy full squats - butt rock bottom - with 405lbs for reps). Why is that?


so maurice was an atger

and the fastest man over 60m ever

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2011, 02:49:49 pm »
0
Regardless of whether you're doing half or full squats, at least people are actually realizing the importance of getting the lifts up.  Squat, half squat, split squat...Anything is better than nothing.

Six years ago this debate would have been about whether strength training was even effective. Ask Raptor and dudes like him that were around on those boards way back when arguing about whether to do air alert or squats.

When I was in high school there were still quite a bit of belief that weights did nothing but make you slow - I was one of them. As a Jr. (1990) I went to a T&F presentation at Texas A&M, a pretty good program, and all they talked about was box jumps&  plyos.  So I thought I would do box jumps and plyos but I would make them even better.  If box jumps and plyos were good, then box jumps and plyos done with strength shoes AND ankle weights would work even better. :) Not! Fortunately, I finally decided I didn't give a shit if weights made me slow or not and started lifting. 


DamienZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 991
  • Yeah dude!
  • Respect: +47
    • View Profile
Re: Squat vs Deadlift.
« Reply #58 on: February 26, 2011, 04:33:28 pm »
0
Regardless of whether you're doing half or full squats, at least people are actually realizing the importance of getting the lifts up.  Squat, half squat, split squat...Anything is better than nothing.

Six years ago this debate would have been about whether strength training was even effective. Ask Raptor and dudes like him that were around on those boards way back when arguing about whether to do air alert or squats.

When I was in high school there were still quite a bit of belief that weights did nothing but make you slow - I was one of them. As a Jr. (1990) I went to a T&F presentation at Texas A&M, a pretty good program, and all they talked about was box jumps&  plyos.  So I thought I would do box jumps and plyos but I would make them even better.  If box jumps and plyos were good, then box jumps and plyos done with strength shoes AND ankle weights would work even better. :) Not! Fortunately, I finally decided I didn't give a shit if weights made me slow or not and started lifting



Everyone wants to be JACK3D brah 8)