Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Sean0013 on February 10, 2011, 06:37:42 pm
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Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?
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Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?
Depends very much on your build -> Chris Hickson vs tychver for example...
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In my experience, the deadlift does pretty much nothing for my jump. I learned from trial and error, and as my squat goes up, my jump directly correlates with it. So I just dropped deadlifting altogether and added an extra day of squatting per week, and my gains accelerated. I squat deep, however, so don't think I'm getting zero p-chain work. In fact, my glutes have been naturally huge since I was a kid, and they continue to grow with my quads. My hamstrings, however, are REALLY little lacking, so I'll add GHR's in the future... Squat Mon/Fri and GHR Wed. Something like that.
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I don't understand. The squat works the posterior chain hard as well. Unless you're talking about a partial squat.
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I get this question a lot The deadlift can be a nice exercise but not everyone is suited for it. The problem is the carryover is very technique dependent. It's possible to deadlift a lot of weight with nary any lower body involvement whatsoever. Hell I had a guy I used to train that could deadlift 500 at 160 and his legs were actually quite weak. The squat is more difficult to screw up. Generally speaking the better the deadlifter the less lower body involvement, as good deadlifters are built in a way they barely have to bend their knees at all to reach the bar. Not to mention most people have less than optimal deadlift technique to begin with. You can have less than optimal squat technique but you're still gonna get a pretty good lower body stimulus.
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Hi Kelly,
I followed one of your programs for explosiveness last summer and into last fall, and when i did squat and deadlifts at a very high frequency, i progressed much much faster on deadlifts. At that time you told me it had something to do with my build. I do have long legs (especially thighs bones) and it makes squat extremely hard to progress without having to lean forward too much. In comparison, with the deadlift, i'm easily able to hit the hamstrings hard and i never had problems of using back at all, even to this day, the deadlift still makes my posterior chain sore for days on.
Recently, i trained with a friend who has a different build and he had trouble not using his back to deadlift. It was an easy thing to acertain as he was not sore WHATSOEVER in his legs in the following days.
So would you think that some people, especially those with long thigh bones/torso, might progress MORE mainly from deadlift as their main exercise over squat? Especially unilateral jumpers? I feel like the deadlifting motion (Hip extension) closely mimicks the angle during a SLRVJ and for me personally, has led to good improvements in that particular jumping technique.
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Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?
The problems with the deadlift, specifically using it as your main lift to supplement vertical jump training, is a.) it starts from a dead stop, there is no reversal or amortization phase as there is in the squat b.) like Kelly said, the technique and individual levers and structures make it very easy for lifters to turn it into a low back dominant lift, or lift with very limited rom. c.) the limited quad activity (specifically bad in the case of 2 leg jumps).
Some people do well with deadlifts, and you can use a touch and go technique or starting at the top and stopping at mid shin technique to get around the dead stop, but depending on your structure you may still have several other issues with your technique being as beneficial as a squat to your jumping. I have always found that squats supplemented with rdl have been much better for this cause, trap bar deadlift is another good option with the extra quad involvement but we do them without stopping on the floor if vertical jumping is the goal.
Any type of lift that limits the quad activity (box squat or squat with very little forward knee travel, deadlift, etc.) is not going to be nearly as beneficial as as one with more balanced quad and pchain emphasis imo, specifically for 2 leg jumps. The squat is just a nice balance of the two when performed correctly for an athlete, and deadlifts or deadlift variations can supplement that really well.
Btw, if youre squatting deep enough, it is highly likely that your deadlift will go up along with your squat, if you only deadlift it is not as likely that your squat will go up in the same fashion.
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Btw, if youre squatting deep enough, it is highly likely that your deadlift will go up along with your squat, if you only deadlift it is not as likely that your squat will go up in the same fashion.
Definitely, since a "good" deadlift is like a 1/4 squat, so it doesn't have as much (if any) carryover to a full squat as a full squat does to a deadlift.
The point is - could a deadlift and deadlift alone be used to gain muscle/strength (forget about jump specificity and all that, just pure muscle)?
Because, if it can, then you can just deadlift to gain muscle and do plyos to tweak and tune that muscle to act explosively.
For example, if you were to do depth jumps followed by deadlifts, then you'd get quad and calf stimuli by depth jumping, and also much more specificity than a squat for jumps, and deadlifts for the posterior chain as muscle growth stimuli.
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Btw, if youre squatting deep enough, it is highly likely that your deadlift will go up along with your squat, if you only deadlift it is not as likely that your squat will go up in the same fashion.
Definitely, since a "good" deadlift is like a 1/4 squat, so it doesn't have as much (if any) carryover to a full squat as a full squat does to a deadlift.
The point is - could a deadlift and deadlift alone be used to gain muscle/strength (forget about jump specificity and all that, just pure muscle)?
yes, it may build more muscle in areas less specific to vertical jumping though, and leave other important muscle groups out. But a deadlift can build muscle, yes.
Because, if it can, then you can just deadlift to gain muscle and do plyos to tweak and tune that muscle to act explosively.
For example, if you were to do depth jumps followed by deadlifts, then you'd get quad and calf stimuli by depth jumping, and also much more specificity than a squat for jumps, and deadlifts for the posterior chain as muscle growth stimuli.
That might work for some, the question was about deadlift VS SQUATS though, specifcally for jumping, and squatting is going to in most cases be a much more efficient tool for the task at hand. You can hammer in a nail with a screw driver if you want to, a hammer is going to be a more efficient choice for most thought.
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Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?
I just looked back at this and missed the ratio part, sorry Sean. The deadlift will nearly always be higher than the squat, you can find rare instances of athletes squatting more but it is the exception, and in many of those cases the reason being the squats were above parallel.
Geared lifting is different, the squat suit helps the squat much more than the erector shirts and deadlift suits help the deadlift, so you will tend to see higher squat vs. dead ratios in gear in those cases. The ratio between athletes lifting raw will vary greatly due to structure, many times someone who has a very gifted structure for deadlifting will have a disadvantageous structure for squatting. There is just so much variance between individual structures that its impossible to give an exact ratio of squat to deadlift strength.
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Btw, if youre squatting deep enough, it is highly likely that your deadlift will go up along with your squat, if you only deadlift it is not as likely that your squat will go up in the same fashion.
So if we had to choose one squatting would be the one?
Also what is your thoughts about squatting 3x/wk vs 2x/wk for beginners (160 lb DL) that also spend a lot of time on sport specific work (about 2 hours a day on basketball)
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Btw, if youre squatting deep enough, it is highly likely that your deadlift will go up along with your squat, if you only deadlift it is not as likely that your squat will go up in the same fashion.
So if we had to choose one squatting would be the one?
yes.
Also what is your thoughts about squatting 3x/wk vs 2x/wk for beginners (160 lb DL) that also spend a lot of time on sport specific work (about 2 hours a day on basketball)
2 x per week should be plenty in your case.
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Hey lance I was wondering if you could collaborate with me to make a customized program.
(Beware though, I have an idea of what I want.)
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Hey lance I was wondering if you could collaborate with me to make a customized program.
(Beware though, I have an idea of what I want.)
Best thing to do is keep an accurate journal, I dont have the time to make people programs anymore but I look through the journals and we can help/add/subtract things in there to keep you going down the right path.
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My doc said don't do deadlifts cuz my couzin blowed his back out doing them....now he's in a wheelchair.......he was taking cleatine too with deadlifts and the doc said his kidneys are almost blowed out too from it.....plus it made his temper really bad and he wanted to kick everybody's ass and creatin made him put some other guy in the hospital cuz he went off playin a pickup game..
now he has blowed out kidneys and blowed out back and he's only 16
dont' do deadlifts and cleatine braa11!!
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My doc said don't do deadlifts cuz my couzin blowed his back out doing them....now he's in a wheelchair.......he was taking cleatine too with deadlifts and the doc said his kidneys are almost blowed out too from it.....plus it made his temper really bad and he wanted to kick everybody's ass and creatin made him put some other guy in the hospital cuz he went off playin a pickup game..
now he has blowed out kidneys and blowed out back and he's only 16
dont' do deadlifts and cleatine braa11!!
Nice job hacking Kelly's account. ;D
ANYWAY - I know a guy who had a displaced kidney due to some 80 inch depth drops. Really, no kidding.
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My doc said don't do deadlifts cuz my couzin blowed his back out doing them....now he's in a wheelchair.......he was taking cleatine too with deadlifts and the doc said his kidneys are almost blowed out too from it.....plus it made his temper really bad and he wanted to kick everybody's ass and creatin made him put some other guy in the hospital cuz he went off playin a pickup game..
now he has blowed out kidneys and blowed out back and he's only 16
dont' do deadlifts and cleatine braa11!!
rofl!@! dead srs, about a month ago had a pm that asked, " I want to take creatine but I heard it will negatively affect penile growth." :uhhhfacepalm:
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hahaha..I believe you I wasn't making those things up I posted I've actually heard those exact comments. Another thing is most people will eventually experience back pain at one time or another and if they've ever done deadlifts in their life (no matter how long previous) they will then turn around and blame their pain on deadlifts, when in reality it's much more likely on account of their posture, excessive sitting in front of a computer, etc
I followed one of your programs for explosiveness last summer and into last fall, and when i did squat and deadlifts at a very high frequency, i progressed much much faster on deadlifts. At that time you told me it had something to do with my build. I do have long legs (especially thighs bones) and it makes squat extremely hard to progress without having to lean forward too much. In comparison, with the deadlift, i'm easily able to hit the hamstrings hard and i never had problems of using back at all, even to this day, the deadlift still makes my posterior chain sore for days on.
Recently, i trained with a friend who has a different build and he had trouble not using his back to deadlift. It was an easy thing to acertain as he was not sore WHATSOEVER in his legs in the following days.
So would you think that some people, especially those with long thigh bones/torso, might progress MORE mainly from deadlift as their main exercise over squat? Especially unilateral jumpers? I feel like the deadlifting motion (Hip extension) closely mimicks the angle during a SLRVJ and for me personally, has led to good improvements in that particular jumping technique.
Extremely tall or long legged people will often have trouble with the squat and for them the deadlift can be a suitable replacement. There are a lot of college basketball strength coaches that use deadlift variations in place of squats. Personally I'd rather use a bulgarian squat for these people but the dead can be a viable option, and, as you experienced, some people respond really well to it. For people that aren't suited for it (typical short armed stocky guys) it tends to beat them up pretty good.
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Kelly, what do you think about my DJs + deadlifts idea? DJs should take care of the quads+calves and deadlifts of the posterior chain. And yes, I'm aware of TUT and CNS differences between this and using squats, but still...
Obviously it depends on what you're aiming for (strength, mass etc), although these things depend on other factors as well (food, rest times etc) but as a general idea, do you think depth jumps + deadlifts can be a valid replacement for squats?
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It's been done before. That's basically Barry Ross's program. A few plyos and deadlifts that's it. You can get results from it. Anything you do that causes your legs to work against progressive tension can illicit some gains. Hell you can get results from doing a leg press or squatflex too if your training age and level of progression vs your untrained state are low enough.
But for my money a squat variant is a better bang for the buck for most as it's inherently less back and more legs.
Squat variant + jump squat/hang snatch + depth jump/calf raise + reverse hyper/hip thrust= Best IMO
But the more you try to make something perfect and 100% optimal that more you're apt to screw yourself up more adding exercises and jacking with sets, reps, frequency etc. so a lot of people would be better off doing something simple like you propose as it inherently eliminates a lot of things they'd screw up doing the "perfect" program....:)
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I think you can do deadlifts with bar drops at the top while in-season, since they're going to be 100% concentric and will not create too much soreness. And since you're in-season you're going to have a lot of plyo so it's going to be plyo+deads.
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My doc said don't do deadlifts cuz my couzin blowed his back out doing them....now he's in a wheelchair.......he was taking cleatine too with deadlifts and the doc said his kidneys are almost blowed out too from it.....plus it made his temper really bad and he wanted to kick everybody's ass and creatin made him put some other guy in the hospital cuz he went off playin a pickup game..
now he has blowed out kidneys and blowed out back and he's only 16
dont' do deadlifts and cleatine braa11!!
rofl!@! dead srs, about a month ago had a pm that asked, " I want to take creatine but I heard it will negatively affect penile growth." :uhhhfacepalm:
ppl think creatine is fucking steroids at school..They really think it works the same way in the football lockerroom.
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My doc said don't do deadlifts cuz my couzin blowed his back out doing them....now he's in a wheelchair.......he was taking cleatine too with deadlifts and the doc said his kidneys are almost blowed out too from it.....plus it made his temper really bad and he wanted to kick everybody's ass and creatin made him put some other guy in the hospital cuz he went off playin a pickup game..
now he has blowed out kidneys and blowed out back and he's only 16
dont' do deadlifts and cleatine braa11!!
cuz my couzin blowed
stopped reading and strong cleatine
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This study looked at eight different muscle sites calf, two quadriceps, two hamstrings, glutes, lower back and abs. Seven weightlifters took part in the study and where randomly assigned to either perform an Olympic squat (full squat high bar position) or conventional deadlift first (3 reps of their 6 repetition maximum (R.M). After a five minute rest they performed the protocol on the other exercise.
EMG data was collected during each exercise for all eight of the selected muscle groups.
What follows are graphs showing the magnitude in activation (using the root mean squared technique) comparing both exercises.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v520/MarcKeys/EMGGNandBF.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v520/MarcKeys/EMGresultsSTandVM.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v520/MarcKeys/EMGResultsVLandGM.jpg)
Results.
The deadlift showed a markedly greater level of activation in 5 out of the 8 muscles sampled. The deadlift also showed greater levels of activation in the VM which is counter-intuitive to say the least.
Conversely the squat showed higher levels of activation in the ST muscle which is also somewhat surprising since variations of the deadlift (namely stiff legged deadlifts have been shown to have up to 2x higher levels of activation in all hamstring musculature.
These garphs are a better barometer of total EMG data and not a good indicator of the timing of motor unit firing.
If you look at the GN the reason it comes out with a much larger RMS value is due to a prolonged time under tension and since the level of activation in both exercises is almost identical.
As far as lower back and abs are concerned the deadlift blew away the squat in the lowerback and edged it out in the abs department. Prior EMG studies have shown that squats and deadlift are superior to conventional abs exercises and instability training for the activation of the mid-section musculature.
Cliff notes
Deadlift superior in five out of eight muscles studied.
Calf muscles show higher levels of activation in the squat due to a higher time under tension.
Squat shows higher levels of activation in one quad and one hamstring studied and vice versa for the deadlift.
Deadlift shows far greater levels of activation in the glutes (3-4x plus).
Deadlifts show higher levels of activation in the midsection.
Result Deadlift via KO in round 1.
(http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~power/franco.jpg)
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Unforunately all that study shows is that they either used incorrect mechanics in the squat or didn't wire the EMG the glutes up right >:( Most other studies are showing at least equal and normally higher EMG activity in GM compared to BF during olympic squats.
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Unforunately all that study shows is that they either used incorrect mechanics in the squat or didn't wire the EMG the glutes up right >:( Most other studies are showing at least equal and normally higher EMG activity in GM compared to BF during olympic squats.
Original link: http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/showthread.php?t=39820
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To me, the shocking news is the vastus medialis results. Doesn't make any sense.
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Unforunately all that study shows is that they either used incorrect mechanics in the squat or didn't wire the EMG the glutes up right >:( Most other studies are showing at least equal and normally higher EMG activity in GM compared to BF during olympic squats.
Original link: http://www.upstandingfuckingcitizens.com/showthread.php?t=39820
http://edulife.com.br/dados%5CArtigos%5CEducacao%20Fisica%5CMuscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20Condicionamento%20Fisico%5CThe%20Effect%20of%20Back%20Squat%20Depth%20on%20the%20EMG.pdf (http://edulife.com.br/dados%5CArtigos%5CEducacao%20Fisica%5CMuscula%C3%A7%C3%A3o%20e%20Condicionamento%20Fisico%5CThe%20Effect%20of%20Back%20Squat%20Depth%20on%20the%20EMG.pdf)
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I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?
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I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?
The glutes are significantly active in jumping. EMG study on depth jumps:
http://w4.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1137/1025
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I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?
it's not that the "glutes are not really activated unless you go deep", it's more of: "the quads become more inactive the deeper you go below 130 deg knee angle"..
so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job.. so the glutes become the primary muscle group for getting you "out of the hole" since the quads have very little ability to produce force at those angles..
the idea behind glutes, depth, half squatting and jumping, is that you teach the glutes (and even hams) to fire more at a depth ABOVE parallel, which is more specific to jumping.. by half squatting, you cause these adaptations to occur, which of course allows for more transfer to standing jumps and especially running jumps..
if you go "deep" all of the time while squatting, your body will learn to recruit the glutes maximally at depth, but you're not maximally stressing the quads AND you're not teaching the body to "fire everything" at half squat depth (jumping plant depth).. when you half squat, everything just turns on when you hit that depth, it becomes a reflex.. the heavier you go, the stronger you get, the more glute & ham you will recruit at above parallel depths, and of course your quads will be a shitload stronger.
that's my ideology (broscience) on half squatting.
peace
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I've always wondered why are the glutes so important if they're not really activated unless you go very deep. I mean for jumping. If when you do a 1/4 squat you use mostly quads, and in a VJ you go into a 1/4 squat, shouldn't the recruitment be very similar (meaning - shouldn't the quads count very much and the glutes very little)?
The glutes are significantly active in jumping. EMG study on depth jumps:
http://w4.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/viewFile/1137/1025
ya exactly, just as they are extremely significant in sprinting..
the confusion exists because people take a heavy-slow barbell movement and compare it to a ballistic movement.. the glutes are activated at ANY depth in a ballistic movement involving hip extension.
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Why would there be differences? I understand than in a running VJ there are forward vectors of movement that determine different loads on different muscles than in a simple, stationary squat, but other than that? Maybe the fact that in a squat you stop at the top and not fully extend and leave the ground as in a jump, hence the hip extension (or hyperextension) part doesn't occur.
And yeah, I know what you say Andrew. You're basically choosing the same point in squat to go up as a VJ would have (at least for you). So basically it's repeating the same ROM, with the coupling phase in the squat occuring at the same depth as it would occur in the VJ (functional training).
But then you say "so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job"
If that's true, then maybe we need to focus more on the quads so that they ARE able to to their job, so you bend less in a jump, spend less time on the ground, and all the positive influence these things have on a VJ. If that's true, then you're always going to be limited by the quads, since you don't need the glutes as much if any when you barely bend to 1/4 when you jump.
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Why would there be differences? I understand than in a running VJ there are forward vectors of movement that determine different loads on different muscles than in a simple, stationary squat, but other than that? Maybe the fact that in a squat you stop at the top and not fully extend and leave the ground as in a jump, hence the hip extension (or hyperextension) part doesn't occur.
And yeah, I know what you say Andrew. You're basically choosing the same point in squat to go up as a VJ would have (at least for you). So basically it's repeating the same ROM, with the coupling phase in the squat occuring at the same depth as it would occur in the VJ (functional training).
But then you say "so going deep is more of the quads not being able to do their job, which, at that depth, is of course not there job, it's the glutes job"
If that's true, then maybe we need to focus more on the quads so that they ARE able to to their job, so you bend less in a jump, spend less time on the ground, and all the positive influence these things have on a VJ. If that's true, then you're always going to be limited by the quads, since you don't need the glutes as much if any when you barely bend to 1/4 when you jump.
well alot of people call my "half squats" quarter squats.... so....
I do almost-quarters off pins, they kill my glutes/hams/quads, so ya, quarters are fine.. i've done them free-style also, again, same thing, everything gets murdered.. i believe in a variety of depths, so, i use anything from half to 'almost quarter' now.. i'd like to hit near 385 off pin 7 tonight for exampld, and 325 or so off pin 6.. those would be my ideal numbers for tonight if i don't dunk and feel good.. the bottom line is that we, as jumpers, need to get FREAKY strong above parallel, any depth above parallel needs to just be psychotic-strong, 3+xBW goals etc..
if you ONLY 1/4th squat, it'll be pretty damn heavy, that's why i'd use more half squatting.. at some point, back safety becomes an issue, so, as you progress, sure, you can keep increasing your quarters, but to only do quarters would be alot more wear and tear on the knees (patella tendons) and spinal column.
pc
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Yeah definitely. It's probably a good thing to limit your above parallel squats to later on, after you get a good strength base with full squats if you can do full squats safely though, since the more ROM and TUT, and less weight (for safety reasons) is a much better choice for beginners in my opinion. But once you have decent strength (1.5x+, maybe even 1.75x+) then you might get functional benefits from doing half squats or whatever depth you feel it's in the same ROM as your jumps, using the same stance as in a jump in terms of space between the feet etc.
If I wasn't weird enough already, I feel like I can full squat more easily 120 kg right now than I can half squat the same weight, because I reactively load and release better at that depth than at half squat depth. When I half squat 120 I feel my knees/quads overload, and the coupling phase is much slower than at full squat depth.
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Yeah definitely. It's probably a good thing to limit your above parallel squats to later on, after you get a good strength base with full squats if you can do full squats safely though, since the more ROM and TUT, and less weight (for safety reasons) is a much better choice for beginners in my opinion. But once you have decent strength (1.5x+, maybe even 1.75x+) then you might get functional benefits from doing half squats or whatever depth you feel it's in the same ROM as your jumps, using the same stance as in a jump in terms of space between the feet etc.
depends on the build, deep squatting is anything but safe for me personally.. so your comment becomes "stick with half squats until you're ~2xbw or so, then start incorporating quarters etc".. so ya same thing basically, but deep ruins my hips and bugs my back more.. i feel very uncomfortable going below parallel even in oly shoes.. i'm lanky, long legs, short torso, the extreme opposite of an oly lifter, so.. most of us here are like that, most people interested in jumping are like that, almost all basketball players are like that.
If I wasn't weird enough already, I feel like I can full squat more easily 120 kg right now than I can half squat the same weight, because I reactively load and release better at that depth than at half squat depth. When I half squat 120 I feel my knees/quads overload, and the coupling phase is much slower than at full squat depth.
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.
pc
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Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?
Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?
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adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.
You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.
Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory :) )
I like the broscience!
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Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?
Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?
Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum
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Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?
Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?
Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum
So you basically say that since that the glute stretch at the bottom, and it's SSC effect (reactive effect) on the power induced for that particular squat is better than the quad stretch and it's SSC effect that you receive when you do say parallel squats or half squats?
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Why do people put so much emphasis on the squat. Isn't the p-chain just as important for jumping as quads? Also what do you guys think is the dl to squat ratio athletes should be aiming for (specifically aiming this at Lance and Adarqui!)?
sure the p-chain is important, but nothing is more important than the quads regarding VERTICAL displacement of the body.. quads/glutes/calfs in that order imo.
i'm speaking on experience coaching myself and others in person, so when it comes to vert, my personal belief is that squats destroy deadlifts.. deadlifting is well below squats in terms of dynamic correspondence/transfer.. deadlifts usually incorporate far more low back/hamstring activity than is needed.. deadlifts lack a strong eccentric stimulus unless you are going "too light", but then that eccentric stimulus becomes weak and is focused entirely on p-chain imo.
as for dl to squat ratio, there isn't one.. their are so many different builds, many of which makes you a greater deadlifter compared to squat, many of which also make you a horrible deadlifter compared to squat.. combine that with the fact that squat depth changes based on build also (in my line of teaching), and you have a clusterfu*k.. for example, basketball players usually have long arms, short torso, long legs, so, basketball players should actually be able to deadlift (semi sumo, sumo) far more than they can DEEP squat.
all i know is everyone needs a 3xBW half squat for speed, that's all i know... :) :wowthatwasnutswtf:
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adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.
they can.. sure.. but half/quarter squatting with speed would provide more of a maximal AND explosive strength stimulus.. oly lifts by themselves, for example, will decrease your 'explosive strength deficit', ie, give you more power based on your maximal strength levels.. you're only going to snatch/clean based on your front squat ceiling..
half squats (and possibly quarter squats), that focus on speed on each rep (no matter the rep range), will lead to more maximal AND explosive strength gains, hypertrophy (due to TUT), etc.
that's one of the many reasons I don't NEED to oly... my main reason for not oly'n however, is due to form/technique/lack of interest... so, due to the fact that i don't really incorporate any "traditional" explosive strength exercises (oly's), I have to make up for it with reactive work, sprints/jumps, and speed (even w/ heavy singles) during my squatting.
You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.
you DEEP squat though.. big diff.. i might have typo'd with what you're saying, but i said, people should incorporate HALF squats before moving on to quarters.. not parallel before moving on to half..
Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory :) )
based on our discussion, why the hell would "only full squats help sprinting" ??????????? im so confused by that....
bottom line, half and possibly quarter improves athletic performance (vert/speed) far greater than ATG.. the end..
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
I like the broscience!
pc
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Yeah that's why I said "if you can do full squats safely", because it pretty much depends on structure. By the way, do you feel like you improved on your "bounce (rebound)" at a half squat depth, or is a bounce in there at all?
Why do you think a rebounds is easier at full vs. at half? (meaning - to what do you attribute the existance of rebound anyway)?
Rebound is definitely easier with full squat. Rebound has 3 parts (that I'm aware of)
1. muscle stretch reflex
2. hamstrings/calves contact (and possibly stomach on upper thighs)
3. bar momentum
So you basically say that since that the glute stretch at the bottom, and it's SSC effect (reactive effect) on the power induced for that particular squat is better than the quad stretch and it's SSC effect that you receive when you do say parallel squats or half squats?
more muscle stretch with full squat
no physical bounce from tissues approximating with half squat
and easier to harness some bounce from the bar's recoil (not sure if recoil is the correct word, but you get my point)
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adarq, I thought olympic lifts such as the power clean, power snatch, hang clean.... were supposed to get that strength and power transition that you get from half/quatter squatting.
they can.. sure.. but half/quarter squatting with speed would provide more of a maximal AND explosive strength stimulus.. oly lifts by themselves, for example, will decrease your 'explosive strength deficit', ie, give you more power based on your maximal strength levels.. you're only going to snatch/clean based on your front squat ceiling..
half squats (and possibly quarter squats), that focus on speed on each rep (no matter the rep range), will lead to more maximal AND explosive strength gains, hypertrophy (due to TUT), etc.
that's one of the many reasons I don't NEED to oly... my main reason for not oly'n however, is due to form/technique/lack of interest... so, due to the fact that i don't really incorporate any "traditional" explosive strength exercises (oly's), I have to make up for it with reactive work, sprints/jumps, and speed (even w/ heavy singles) during my squatting.
You stated that you must first strengthen your gultes with parallel squats THEN move on to half squats...That sounds interesting to me, I will hopefully get 2.2xBW someday and maybe incorporate these half squats into the mix.
you DEEP squat though.. big diff.. i might have typo'd with what you're saying, but i said, people should incorporate HALF squats before moving on to quarters.. not parallel before moving on to half..
Another point i was curious about, do half squats only help jumping? In my mind I get the idea that only full squats will help sprinting(which I do to refresh your memory :) )
based on our discussion, why the hell would "only full squats help sprinting" ??????????? im so confused by that....
bottom line, half and possibly quarter improves athletic performance (vert/speed) far greater than ATG.. the end..
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
I like the broscience!
pc
then wtf am i going to do with all this atg squats!?!?!?!?!?
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you've personally insulted me and my half squatting on the live chat, many times, there's probably no hope for you, you're already "ATG brainwashed" by "adam linkenauger" who actually half/quarter squatted his "455".. lmao
but let's stay on topic..
the entire performance industry is brainwashed and brainwashes everyone with bullshit info every single day.
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All the high jumpers I know half squat. I've never ever seen them full squat for as long as I've gone to the track. Now I don't know if they built their strength over time with full squats and then went with half squats for specialization/specificity, but even those that are weak half squat. Probably because of structure.
They all use high bar though and narrow stance.
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when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
Ben Johnson's PR's in the weightroom.
Squat: 2x6x600 lbs.
Bench: 2x450 lbs.
Deadlift: 500 lbs in 1984 (but never included it after that).
Clean: His clean was very poor technically, so kept away from it.
At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.
Ben's brother was a powerlifter.
His starts were just insane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k
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[At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.
From what I heard Ben was running at close to 200lbs in 88.
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i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.
pc
as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.
i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D
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From what I heard Ben was running at close to 200lbs in 88.
According to the Charlie Francis forum, Ben's BW was 173lbs in Seoul.
Ah whatever, the guy could rip.
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i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.
pc
as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.
i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D
Well these are good news. It was expected but it's good to hear them from someone else. There probably is such a thing as "preferred coupling phase depth".
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when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
Ben Johnson's 600 was not off a box and it was for 8, charlie said he wouldn't let him go below that in reps because of risk
the box thing is a common misconception which stems from the video online of ben squatting 400ish to a high-ish box.
That came much later in Ben's career when he was training with someone else.
Charlie himself said this and said that Ben was not squatting to a box.
the squats were slightly above parallel according to Charlie
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All the high jumpers I know half squat. I've never ever seen them full squat for as long as I've gone to the track. Now I don't know if they built their strength over time with full squats and then went with half squats for specialization/specificity, but even those that are weak half squat. Probably because of structure.
They all use high bar though and narrow stance.
yup, remember that "vili" guy, dunker, his protege, young high jumper.. he squatted deep, but it was rather astonishing given his leverages, looked really perfect.. but he also has the kid doing crazy heavy quarters.. so ya it does happen rarely, but the keyword is rarely.
one thing this forum does a good job at is sifting through the garbage of "train exactly like an olympic lifter regardless of your build", ie, we don't just say everyone should be ATG'n regardless of structure.. but people on here need to be really pushing the weights up.
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
Ben Johnson's PR's in the weightroom.
Squat: 2x6x600 lbs.
Bench: 2x450 lbs.
Deadlift: 500 lbs in 1984 (but never included it after that).
Clean: His clean was very poor technically, so kept away from it.
At a bodyweight of 173 lbs.
Ben's brother was a powerlifter.
His starts were just insane.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCh5QswxQ6k
ya those stats are incredible..
would have loved to see those lifts, shame on people for not video taping.. harry AA FTW.
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.
pc
as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.
i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D
right remember I told you that? I don't think about transitioning anymore, I just do.. I get to a point where my body immediately starts trying to reverse the bar without me even needing to think about it, then i explode.
i'm pretty sure kingfish has said the same thing, or similar.. you don't get "rebound" in a half squat, sure you have leverage advantage, but you don't get any rebound.. that's a very important and beneficial aspect of half squatting.. it's a raw transition with very little "rebound effect" from the glutes/hams, ie, that big stretch going down or hitting glutes near calfs and just rebounding up.. so ya it makes sense, people who talk shit on half, who go deep, often find half squatting pretty challenging and then they act all surprised.
pc
as i progress with more volume and intensity in my explosive partials.. i find it that you will eventually create your own rebound point and improve on it more and more.. either by using heavier weight or more reps. i felt like was bouncing off something with 225 1/2s and its definetely not from hams/calves contact. muscles start to feel different.
i prefer waveloaded..im only on my 10th workout so theres more progress to be made. ;D
it's like when we do VJ's, RVJ's, etc.. we don't really think about depth, sure at times we do when we're trying to force a certain depth.. but the majority of our jumping happens completely out of our control due to the velocities at hand.. everything is "preprogrammed", so allowing yourself to "squat that way" should be alot more beneficial to jumping imo.. teaching the body to "go deep" vs "teaching it to reverse hard slightly above parallel" seem to be no question in my opinion, i'm going with specificity.... ie teaching the body to reverse at spots more specific to svj/rvj AND recruit more mu's etc at those points.
why override those natural mechanisms is my point.. embrace them and enhance them.
when you read stuff like, "ben johnson squatted 600 for 8 reps", realize it was ABOVE PARALLEL OFF A BOX................... roided but one of the fastest people to ever grace this planet, he never went deep, and charlie francis didn't give a shit.
Ben Johnson's 600 was not off a box and it was for 8, charlie said he wouldn't let him go below that in reps because of risk
the box thing is a common misconception which stems from the video online of ben squatting 400ish to a high-ish box.
That came much later in Ben's career when he was training with someone else.
Charlie himself said this and said that Ben was not squatting to a box.
the squats were slightly above parallel according to Charlie
Well these are good news. It was expected but it's good to hear them from someone else. There probably is such a thing as "preferred coupling phase depth".
[/quote]
ya there's alot of confusion over the issue, lance even pasted something from charlie's FAq/q&A saying ben went below parallel or something.. so there's lots of conflicting reports.. I've read mostly the above parallel accounts and those are what I believe, any lower and i'm chalking it up to exaggeration/embellishing the accomplishment.
the ~500 lb box squat later on in his career was really sloppy, brutal, and scary:
video link in this thread: http://www.adarq.org/forum/400m-sprinting/ben-johnson/
peace
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As far as squat depth is concerned, how about something like
3 X 3-5 A2G followed by 2 X 3 quarter squats.
I have been thinking about changing my A2G only squat sessions into above but haven't gotten around to it.
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As far as squat depth is concerned, how about something like
3 X 3-5 A2G followed by 2 X 3 quarter squats.
I have been thinking about changing my A2G only squat sessions into above but haven't gotten around to it.
sure man, i tell people who are "obsessed" with A2G to dabble in half squat in a few ways:
1. work up sets going ATG, then transition into half, work sets half
2. separate days, ATG on one day, half on another
3. work up using halfs, come back down and finish off with some deeper sets (a few lighter reacclimation lifts prior to the deeper sets)
your idea may be good, it'd work better than 3 x 3-5 A2G followed by 2 x 3 HALF, the quarters won't be as effected as the halfs would be from 3 sets of 3-5 really ball busting sets.. just make sure you work up properly after the atg sets and don't go crazy on quarter's for a while.. give yourself 2 weeks or so just to get accustomed to them, they should feel pretty weird for someone who is used to going atg, it'll feel weird reversing at that depth.
but ya make sure you are prepared for quarters, breathing has to be right (staying tight) and yo uhave to phase them in gradually..
peace
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Even oly lifters quarter squat sometimes. We do explosive 1/4 front squats for the jerk. Normally called jerk drives.
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recent quote on cf about maurice green
Many of today's top sprinters do not have a heavy emphasis on weightlifting when compared to someone like Ben Johnson or Maurice Greene for that matter (Doc Kreis - when he was still the strength coach at UCLA - told me that he saw Mo doing relatively easy full squats - butt rock bottom - with 405lbs for reps). Why is that?
so maurice was an atger
and the fastest man over 60m ever
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Regardless of whether you're doing half or full squats, at least people are actually realizing the importance of getting the lifts up. Squat, half squat, split squat...Anything is better than nothing.
Six years ago this debate would have been about whether strength training was even effective. Ask Raptor and dudes like him that were around on those boards way back when arguing about whether to do air alert or squats.
When I was in high school there were still quite a bit of belief that weights did nothing but make you slow - I was one of them. As a Jr. (1990) I went to a T&F presentation at Texas A&M, a pretty good program, and all they talked about was box jumps& plyos. So I thought I would do box jumps and plyos but I would make them even better. If box jumps and plyos were good, then box jumps and plyos done with strength shoes AND ankle weights would work even better. :) Not! Fortunately, I finally decided I didn't give a shit if weights made me slow or not and started lifting.
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Regardless of whether you're doing half or full squats, at least people are actually realizing the importance of getting the lifts up. Squat, half squat, split squat...Anything is better than nothing.
Six years ago this debate would have been about whether strength training was even effective. Ask Raptor and dudes like him that were around on those boards way back when arguing about whether to do air alert or squats.
When I was in high school there were still quite a bit of belief that weights did nothing but make you slow - I was one of them. As a Jr. (1990) I went to a T&F presentation at Texas A&M, a pretty good program, and all they talked about was box jumps& plyos. So I thought I would do box jumps and plyos but I would make them even better. If box jumps and plyos were good, then box jumps and plyos done with strength shoes AND ankle weights would work even better. :) Not! Fortunately, I finally decided I didn't give a shit if weights made me slow or not and started lifting.
Everyone wants to be JACK3D brah 8)