Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Kingfish on June 07, 2011, 01:08:01 pm
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http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=24176&page=7
just in case i need to do some iphone time killing reading between sets..
good read by the way.
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Hah, nice thread, I keep on reading.
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almost done reading...
thread had good potential until darqui messed it up by telling GOMAD peoples his twig weight. its downhill after that. :uhhhfacepalm:
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almost done reading...
thread had good potential until darqui messed it up by telling GOMAD peoples his twig weight. its downhill after that. :uhhhfacepalm:
lmao yup, that sank it..
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Read it this morning. Fucked my schedule. Was 2 hours late for training. Ha. Good read.
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honeybadger = adarqui?
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honeybadger = adarqui?
AND reverse hypertrophy
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Reverse hypertrophy is adarq
i think lance is honeybadger
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HAHHHA GOMAD GOGGLES FOR THE WIN!!!
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Damn I missed some good trolling
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"Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+. Show us your data, and show us the video of the jump test method you use."
- Mark Rippetoe
LOLLLLLLLLLL ok so if you have a 30" SVJ already you can only increase it by 6" LMFAO.. that's only a 20% increase in vert...
mind you, I've went from a 27" RVJ to now a 38" RVJ over a period of 4 years. Mark Rippetoe has ZERO knowledge when it comes to vert training. What a tool.
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My opinion is that half-squats are never a legitimate exercise for any purpose under any circumstances.
Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+.
I do not think partial squats are SPP. I think they are an ineffective way to train anything, because their mechanics are sufficiently different from normal human movement patterns that they are actually counterproductive.
You can't create "elite" jumping numbers (36"+) with any kind of squat if elite jumping genetics are not already there
And what the hell does bodyfat have to do with this as a training goal?
My rule of thumb in these matters is ABOUT 25% improvement in untrained vs trained SVJ, with emphasis on the S. I didn't make the goddamn percentages up -- they are the consensus of every high-level S&C coach I've talked to about this, every high-level athlete that has trained the SVJ for performance, and my own personal experience.
Half squats are used -- and their use rationalized in this way -- by coaches that do not know how to teach the full squat successfully, that have never disciplined themselves to learn and use the full squat personally, and that run typical shitty collegiate S&C programs that get by because their recruiters put enough genetics on the team that it looks like half-squats and Hammer Strength actually work.
- Mark Fucking Rippetoe
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Lakers, you are not reading appropriately - SVJ is not the same as RVJ.
I also think that people are not trying very hard to understand his position and where he is coming from. People just get into these discussions without an open mind and then get upset, like you are, that he is not accepting the idea that some athletes make solid increases in their SVJ without some form of prove. And he is rightfully so asking for it since those gains (let's say 30%, which is a number that has been used in previous discussions), despite the perception on forums such as this, are pretty rare. You could even look at the logs in THIS forum and on TVS and count the guys that increased their standing jumps more than 30%. There are people who did that, but if you think they are more than a small percentage, your perception of it is clouded.
You also have to understand that athletes on a board like this are a somewhat "special" population in itself. For Rip the SVJ is merely a diagnostic tool. People here treat it as their training goal. Those are two different worlds clashing together.
Those things should be discussed, but IMO this thread got quickly out of hand because opinionated people from both sides did not try very hard to understand the other side and could not get their heads wrapped around what was the actual difference in opinion. It's a pity that this is the case though.
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Lakers, you are not reading appropriately - SVJ is not the same as RVJ.
I also think that people are not trying very hard to understand his position and where he is coming from. People just get into these discussions without an open mind and then get upset, like you are, that he is not accepting the idea that some athletes make solid increases in their SVJ without some form of prove. And he is rightfully so asking for it since those gains (let's say 30%, which is a number that has been used in previous discussions), despite the perception on forums such as this, are pretty rare. You could even look at the logs in THIS forum and on TVS and count the guys that increased their standing jumps more than 30%. There are people who did that, but if you think they are more than a small percentage, your perception of it is clouded.
You also have to understand that athletes on a board like this are a somewhat "special" population in itself. For Rip the SVJ is merely a diagnostic tool. People here treat it as their training goal. Those are two different worlds clashing together.
Those things should be discussed, but IMO this thread got quickly out of hand because opinionated people from both sides did not try very hard to understand the other side and could not get their heads wrapped around what was the actual difference in opinion. It's a pity that this is the case though.
i agree with that though i would say more of the stiff neckedness was on rips side
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Lakers, you are not reading appropriately - SVJ is not the same as RVJ.
I also think that people are not trying very hard to understand his position and where he is coming from. People just get into these discussions without an open mind and then get upset, like you are, that he is not accepting the idea that some athletes make solid increases in their SVJ without some form of prove. And he is rightfully so asking for it since those gains (let's say 30%, which is a number that has been used in previous discussions), despite the perception on forums such as this, are pretty rare. You could even look at the logs in THIS forum and on TVS and count the guys that increased their standing jumps more than 30%. There are people who did that, but if you think they are more than a small percentage, your perception of it is clouded.
You also have to understand that athletes on a board like this are a somewhat "special" population in itself. For Rip the SVJ is merely a diagnostic tool. People here treat it as their training goal. Those are two different worlds clashing together.
Those things should be discussed, but IMO this thread got quickly out of hand because opinionated people from both sides did not try very hard to understand the other side and could not get their heads wrapped around what was the actual difference in opinion. It's a pity that this is the case though.
i agree with that though i would say more of the stiff neckedness was on rips side
x2
I agree with steven-miller views on being open minded , differencing a general athlete from a VJ-trainee , seeing the big pic with SVJ possible progress etc.
But rippetoe is less openmided in this case for sure , those statements are provoking arrogant.
Just 2 cents from someone ( not an athlete , not even close ) who took his SVJ from ~20'' to ~30,5'' ( just a bit above 50% improvement ) squatting mostly above parallel.
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I think my SVJ stayed for a while at ~20 inches before starting to squat etc and now it's 30 inches with a lower than 2x squat. You can't say I won't ever be able to get ~35 or so if my squat would improve to 2x+, so that's a bunch of bullshit.
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i think one of the main issues with SVJ is, on these forums, most people simply don't care about it.. it's a skill just like anything else.. sure it'll go up a little as your RVJ goes up considerably, but without directly training it, you can't ever expect to make huge gains in that movement.. most people on here/TVS are "basketball natured", so jumping from a dead start doesn't excite them or make any sense for the world of dunking.. on the other hand, people who do focus on svj, such as vag/tychver/steven-miller/arowe/... etc, do make considerable gains in it.
I personally hate SVJ'n, so even though it's gone up a bit, it's not something I care about.. For example, 3 years ago I measured my highest SVJ on vertec of 124" when my running touch was only 128", I was SVJ'n every workout.. Once I got bored with SVJ, it went down to 120-121" while my RVJ kept increasing to vertec 132.5" touch.
I think you'll find people more interested in SVJ on "strength & bodybuilding forums". One of the reasons, I noticed, is that alot of those people always want to be "better at something" than people who are crazy athletic. For example, if you say lebron james has 44" RVJ, they'll say, "but what is his SVJ".. If you tell them lebron half squats 2.5xBW, they will laugh and say, "but what does he deep squat".. If you tell them an elite athlete's bodyweight is 160 lb, they will laugh and tell them to gomad, etc.. that's not everyone, but it's a large percentage from what i see.. "ATG" squatting, SVJ, GOMAD, & excessive bodyweight become some kind of cult ego booster to alot of those people. I respect people whatever their goals are, doesn't infringe on my training one bit so why would I care.. Rippetoe on the other hand seems to be pretty inflammatory, he allows some really weak replies through & somehow thinks they are funny, that's always a bad sign.. If someone is sticking up for me and acting like a complete a$$ in the process, i'd tell them to relax... lmao..
pc
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I am not saying that he is right and that it never happens. I say people in these forums expect others with different backgrounds and different experiences to accept their views without questioning them despite the fact that most people are full of shit. Is Rip stubborn about these matters? Of course he is! Is there a certain truth to his side of the argument? Absolutely - IMO. Has he asked for data everytime this topic came up? Yes he did, you can go and check for yourselves. It is not that he sits in his ivory tower immune to every contradictory information. But so far there have not been many people come to him and say "Hey Rip, I trained dozens of people to jump higher from a standstill, here is the data." In fact, no one has. Btw., *I* would like to see such data as well and I say that as someone who has made pretty decent gains in his SVJ and has documented that shit very thouroughly. But I am not readily making conclusions based on myself and a handfull of other people on a special internet forum dedicated largely to that exact goal.
@Raptor: I would love to see you get your squat to 2x+ and jump those 35", document it and give that data to Rip. But you have to do it first, you know...
@adarqui: I agree with a large percentage of what you just wrote. Not accepting that someone excels in some discipline because all that matters to you is what you excel in is just plain stupid. However, the reason Rip is talking about SVJ exclusively is not because he cares particularly much about that number, but because he realizes that it is a completely different thing from a RVJ as is a half squat and a full squat. Comparing both with each other is not getting us anywhere. Btw., I do care about my drop-step vertical also :-).
Peace
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To be fair to Rippetoe, he couldve closed that thread much earlier once he realized he wasnt up against the normal "trolls" hes used to, and it did seem that he started to open his mind a little bit, and take everything in towards the end. He blatantly changed his original position about halfway through, and to me thats at least a sign he was actually reading the information and not discounting everything he wasnt familiar with.
When Steven asked him about his experiment, he said "keep in mind that anything will work for 6 weeks", and when talking about improving an already great svj, thats just complete horseshit. In fact, MOST things wont work, you have to really be on the ball to get improvements at that point.
The thread was actually beneficial to some people, even though a lot of the flame battles clog up a good thread, and thats not just their fault admittedly. I honestly think that as much detail as he pays to things like anthropometry, etc., if it was actually his JOB to improve athletic performance, he would have different views on other training tools. But most of what he does is not related to speed/jumping, so his point of view is understandable.
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I wonder what's Kelly's point of view on the matter. After all, he's the one who kind of trains people for increasing the SVJ, since that will mean also an increase in the RVJ. For him personally, I think he went from ~20 inches to 35+ just by pretty much increasing his strength.
As for me, I think, just as for everybody else, the SVJ increases as the squat increases. Probably just as simple as that. But I'm a better SVJ jumper than the regular Joe, it kind of comes naturally to me.
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I wonder what's Kelly's point of view on the matter. After all, he's the one who kind of trains people for increasing the SVJ, since that will mean also an increase in the RVJ. For him personally, I think he went from ~20 inches to 35+ just by pretty much increasing his strength.
As for me, I think, just as for everybody else, the SVJ increases as the squat increases. Probably just as simple as that. But I'm a better SVJ jumper than the regular Joe, it kind of comes naturally to me.
Kelly says 23 to 42. Take noob gains into consideration and it was probably a legit 30 to 42.
Rippetoe can't tell the difference between 18% bodyfat and 35%. His opinion on anything besides getting stronger is invalid.
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JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?
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i think one of the main issues with SVJ is, on these forums, most people simply don't care about it.. it's a skill just like anything else.. sure it'll go up a little as your RVJ goes up considerably, but without directly training it, you can't ever expect to make huge gains in that movement.. most people on here/TVS are "basketball natured", so jumping from a dead start doesn't excite them or make any sense for the world of dunking.. on the other hand, people who do focus on svj, such as vag/tychver/steven-miller/arowe/... etc, do make considerable gains in it.
I personally hate SVJ'n, so even though it's gone up a bit, it's not something I care about.. For example, 3 years ago I measured my highest SVJ on vertec of 124" when my running touch was only 128", I was SVJ'n every workout.. Once I got bored with SVJ, it went down to 120-121" while my RVJ kept increasing to vertec 132.5" touch.
I think you'll find people more interested in SVJ on "strength & bodybuilding forums". One of the reasons, I noticed, is that alot of those people always want to be "better at something" than people who are crazy athletic. For example, if you say lebron james has 44" RVJ, they'll say, "but what is his SVJ".. If you tell them lebron half squats 2.5xBW, they will laugh and say, "but what does he deep squat".. If you tell them an elite athlete's bodyweight is 160 lb, they will laugh and tell them to gomad, etc.. that's not everyone, but it's a large percentage from what i see.. "ATG" squatting, SVJ, GOMAD, & excessive bodyweight become some kind of cult ego booster to alot of those people. I respect people whatever their goals are, doesn't infringe on my training one bit so why would I care.. Rippetoe on the other hand seems to be pretty inflammatory, he allows some really weak replies through & somehow thinks they are funny, that's always a bad sign.. If someone is sticking up for me and acting like a complete a$$ in the process, i'd tell them to relax... lmao..
pc
Excuse my lack of knowledge, but I don't understand how you're RVJ could have kept increasing, while your SVJ decreased? How do you "focus on improving SVJ"? Is it just a matter of getting in max effort SVJ sessions?
I always thought both SVJ and RVJ would go up simultaneously unless you're strictly doing reactive work only.
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JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?
Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.
brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president
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JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?
Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.
brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president
I did not imply that you should not criticize Rip. I asked in which field your views have validity?
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JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?
Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.
brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president
I did not imply that you should not criticize Rip. I asked in which field your views have validity?
What views? I didn't give an opinion in this thread.
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JC, in which areas does your opinion have validity?
Which opinion? My views on training have no affect on Rippetoe's views about bodyfat percentage.
brb not being able to criticize obama because I'm not a president
I did not imply that you should not criticize Rip. I asked in which field your views have validity?
What views? I didn't give an opinion in this thread.
JC, are you trolling me or are you actually incapable of understanding such a simple question? I shall paraphrase it again for you:
I want to know in which areas (or fields, or disciplines, etc.) your opinion, regardless if it was voiced anywhere or not, has validity. In other words, where do you have the necessary expertise to voice a valid opinion? On which topics, in which areas of knowledge, etc.
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ummm
Jumping: Increased my own jump a pretty decent amount
Aesthetics Training: I think I've had a decent transformation
Basketball: Played it all my life
Girls: Been able to get them all my life without much effort
Supplements: Done a decent amount of research
Steroids: Done a decent amount of research
VJ: Followed her career since zoey 101
Bodybuilding ("sport"): I know a lot of the top bodybuilders
Bodybuilding (training): Done a decent amount of research, have 2 brothers who are big by most standards
Scammers: Seen so many of them and they all have the same traits.
Drugs: Don't know much about them, but have experimented.
New Jersey: Lived there most of my life
Florida: Lived there for a little bit of my life
Rap Music: Been listening to it for my entire life
Seeing what any of this has to do with this topic: I suck at this
Being Good Looking: Being Good Looking
Winning Internet Debates: Check around this forum
Realizing Mark Rippetoe is an idiot: Seeing his claim of putting 25 pounds of muscle on a kid in 1 month, claimed he was 18% bodyfat when he was around 35%.
Realizing Everyone on Rippetoe's forum is a nuthugger: Looking at the amount of posts Steven-Miller has on there
Is that sufficient for you?
And yes I think SS is a good program and I think rippetoe is a good powerlifting coach
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ummm
Jumping: Increased my own jump a pretty decent amount
Aesthetics Training: I think I've had a decent transformation
Basketball: Played it all my life
Girls: Been able to get them all my life without much effort
Supplements: Done a decent amount of research
Steroids: Done a decent amount of research
VJ: Followed her career since zoey 101
Bodybuilding ("sport"): I know a lot of the top bodybuilders
Bodybuilding (training): Done a decent amount of research, have 2 brothers who are big by most standards
Scammers: Seen so many of them and they all have the same traits.
Drugs: Don't know much about them, but have experimented.
New Jersey: Lived there most of my life
Florida: Lived there for a little bit of my life
Rap Music: Been listening to it for my entire life
Seeing what any of this has to do with this topic: I suck at this
Being Good Looking: Being Good Looking
Winning Internet Debates: Check around this forum
Realizing Mark Rippetoe is an idiot: Seeing his claim of putting 25 pounds of muscle on a kid in 1 month, claimed he was 18% bodyfat when he was around 35%.
Realizing Everyone on Rippetoe's forum is a nuthugger: Looking at the amount of posts Steven-Miller has on there
Is that sufficient for you?
And yes I think SS is a good program and I think rippetoe is a good powerlifting coach
JC, i like you :highfive:
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Is that sufficient for you?
Thank you for answering my question. It is very enlightening that those are the areas you have the most expertise in and on which basis that is as well.
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I don't get one thing: what is this thread really about? I mean, the half squat is a SPP strength exercise in athletics (track&field and other sports). It also can be used as GPP for people that get enough glute and general muscle stimulation with the half squat and that don't perform full squats well due to structural factors/flexibility factors/injuries/don't care about the full squat.
If the half squat does it's thing as a strength increase exercise then what's the beef?
Also, as a SPP exercise, it trains the reversal strength in the same exact point where a guy would want to reverse the eccentric into concentric. That will never happen with full squats. It's such an important factor in doing half squats instead of full squats.
Now you could come in and say "yeah but you could do full squats + depth jumps and get the best of both worlds."
Well yeah, you can, if you ignore the shocks in the joints that the depth jumps would generate. Those over time will take their toll. With half squats you can overload that eccentric, coupling and concentric phases without having to get these shocks.
So I think you don't have to be a genius to understand this and you don't need any more than these few phrases^^^ here to sum it up. There's no need for such a big discussion.
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I wonder what's Kelly's point of view on the matter. After all, he's the one who kind of trains people for increasing the SVJ, since that will mean also an increase in the RVJ. For him personally, I think he went from ~20 inches to 35+ just by pretty much increasing his strength.
As for me, I think, just as for everybody else, the SVJ increases as the squat increases. Probably just as simple as that. But I'm a better SVJ jumper than the regular Joe, it kind of comes naturally to me.
I didn't read that thread so I'm not 100% sure what all the debate is about, but I can guess. I see the point of both sides. If people ask I'll tell them a 30% increase on a relatively untrained jump is typically attainable over time. That's 6 inches on a 20 inch jump and 9 inches on a 30. There will be outliers who get more or less then that but I think most people can reasonably expect that with proper training over a period of time. I also tell people my increases were way outside the norm and should not be expected. I happened to get interested in jumping at a time when I was physically least suited for it and was extremely gangly and awkward and had really even yet to hit puberty but there was a lot of dormant potential there and as I matured that potential became magnified. Having said that, a guy like Vag is proof of what a mature individual can accomplish on a SVJ when the focus is on that and the training is geared towards it. Also I think someone mentioned there's a big difference in results when using the VJ as an indicator and not the main focus of training.
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I've started with a 20" something svj at 15 yo, only to reach 36" at 20yo. So almost doubled my svj while more than doubling my squat so... :uhhhfacepalm:
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Any athlete that has a legit TRAINED 36-38" SVJ started out with a 30-32+.
Let me ask you people this:
What does "started out" mean? It's not a definable thing. What does starting out mean? That when I was 1 year old I could jump 32? That when I started to grow I could jump 32? That when I got past teenage I was jumping 32? That I can jump 32 without doing any training whatsoever? What about playing sports? Doesn't that affect my SVJ? What if I squat for bodybuilding purposes for 5 years already? What if I don't squat at all? What if I'm a powerlifter or Olympic lifter that doesn't train for a SVJ?
And so on and so forth. What does "started out" mean? This is stupid beyond anything I can think of.
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either way that whole thread ended up just being the biggest troll of the century
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN6FWPb43ks
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The only stupid thing is people still not understanding the difference between VJ as diagnostic tool and training for it specifically (despite the fact that it was brought up several times now) and that Rippetoe's primary experience is with the former. And obviously you cannot come and claim to have doubled your SVJ when your pre test measure is as 15 year old and your post test measure is as adult 5 years later (because of drastic biological changes not attributed to training).
I think that Kelly brought a very good perspective into this debate, namely that of a coach with the experience to say what constitutes the typical improvement, within a time frame people are typically willing to commit to such a goal. Statements and predictions of what is maximally possible are always doomed to be proven wrong and most, like Rippetoe in this case, might drastically underestimate what is possible because of their much larger exposure to the typical. Yet people here might perceive that cases like vag and kingfish are completely normal, but obviously that is not the case either.
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Wait, wasn't you the one who said I could increase my squat liniarily for a long period of time just doing 3x5? Like I have your monster body and adaptability? I mean, you were the one who took the exception (yourself) and apply that to everybody, saying everybody can increase their squat each workout until they reach ~2x (you didn't say 2x, but a much higher squat than what I currently have). If it were that easy we would all have 2x squats.
I'm saying this because you say the same stuff of "exceptions" about SVJ, but don't think the same thing when it comes to squatting.
If you're able to increase your squat like that you're probably able to increase your SVJ a lot like that too.
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Wait, wasn't you the one who said I could increase my squat liniarily for a long period of time just doing 3x5? Like I have your monster body and adaptability? I mean, you were the one who took the exception (yourself) and apply that to everybody, saying everybody can increase their squat each workout until they reach ~2x (you didn't say 2x, but a much higher squat than what I currently have). If it were that easy we would all have 2x squats.
I'm saying this because you say the same stuff of "exceptions" about SVJ, but don't think the same thing when it comes to squatting.
If you're able to increase your squat like that you're probably able to increase your SVJ a lot like that too.
Yes, that was me and it is likely true. Having the physical capacity to do something and actually doing it (which means having motivational aspects in check as well, not getting injured, do what is necessary etc.) are different things however.
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If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.
By the way - just threw down a dunk at the 2.96 rim off standing VJ again - in the past (~2 years ago) I could barely touch the bottom of the rim off SVJ if anything, so that's a ~8 inch gain just by that.
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If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.
Well man, what can I say? I guess you are right then, I have been wrong all the time and you will never have a 2x bw squat ever, regardless of what you do.
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If that were true I'd have a 2x squat since 3 years ago. If it was as simple as putting a bar on your back and doing your workout and your squat will increase liniarly.
Well man, what can I say? I guess you are right then, I have been wrong all the time and you will never have a 2x bw squat ever, regardless of what you do.
Duh, finally. Thank you.
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I am not saying that he is right and that it never happens. I say people in these forums expect others with different backgrounds and different experiences to accept their views without questioning them despite the fact that most people are full of shit. Is Rip stubborn about these matters? Of course he is! Is there a certain truth to his side of the argument? Absolutely - IMO. Has he asked for data everytime this topic came up? Yes he did, you can go and check for yourselves. It is not that he sits in his ivory tower immune to every contradictory information. But so far there have not been many people come to him and say "Hey Rip, I trained dozens of people to jump higher from a standstill, here is the data." In fact, no one has. Btw., *I* would like to see such data as well and I say that as someone who has made pretty decent gains in his SVJ and has documented that shit very thouroughly. But I am not readily making conclusions based on myself and a handfull of other people on a special internet forum dedicated largely to that exact goal.
Didn't see this before, but how is there a certain truth to his argument? If one person proved him wrong, there is 0 truth to his argument. He's never trained anyone to jump high because that isn't their goal. Ok. He shouldn't be making the claims he did then.
And of course people will be butthurt here about that, because most people on here are training to jump higher. Being told they can't do it is heartbreaking, especially when they actually can do it but Rippetoe is ignorant.
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Didn't see this before, but how is there a certain truth to his argument? If one person proved him wrong, there is 0 truth to his argument. He's never trained anyone to jump high because that isn't their goal. Ok. He shouldn't be making the claims he did then.
When we are talking in absolute terms you are right, he would be proven wrong by anyone who increased their SVJ by more than X %, something he claimed to be impossible. But if people would see beyond that number and grasp the actual thought behind it, there would not be as much controversy about that topic. The thought being that in reality most people fail to increase their SVJs by more than a small margin. When Kelly, who hardly anyone here would not see as an expert in the matter, comes here and says that the typical improvement he tells his clients about is 30% in a reasonable time frame, what does that tell you? It tells ME that certain people who have an interest in increasing their jump and are motivated enough about it to do some research and actually contact Kelly Bagget to ask for advice or even pay for his services, are untypical to improve their SVJs by much more than 30%, despite the fact that they are a preselected group of athletes to begin with and are provided with solid training information as well.
Can we conclude from that, that X% is the maximum of possible improvement? Of course not and even one black swan is enough to prove that statement bullshit. But what can be said is that X% might be typical, what most of the time happens in a certain population with a specific training goal. In Rip's population >X% happens less often than maybe in Lance's population and that probably has a number of reasons, one of which you have mentioned yourself. But the general idea behind giving such a number to a trainee that is starting out is to give him a realistic expectation to work with and not tell him that he is likely to increase his SVJ by 50% because one person on adarq.org has done so.
The biggest issue with those statements of Rip were phrases like "impossible", "every", etc. I can understand that people have a problem with that, especially when it concerns themselves. The discussion would be more fruitful however if people would stop pointing the finger at Rip for making a claim that was doomed to be proven wrong by someone from the beginning and instead concentrate on what was, I believe, actually meant by it. Namely what is typical, what generally happens etc.
Now, questions like "In which populations is that the case?", "What are predictors for success above the average?", "What might be the effect of treating the SVJ as diagnostic tool vs. as athletic skill to be practiced?" etc. are actually meaningful topics that could have been debated if it wasn't for the stubbornness on both sides to prove the other side wrong.
I sincerely hope that there will be a meaningful debate about the half-squat and its value as SPP exercise, about possible and typical SVJ improvements etc. once we have made our case study.
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Hm, so let's see:
If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?
If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?
So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.
See how idiotic this gets?
If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?
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Hm, so let's see:
If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?
If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?
So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.
See how idiotic this gets?
If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?
Estimations like that are never accurate at the extremes. You would not measure the height of the Eiffel Tower or the size of a brain cell with a ruler either. It can measure distances, but it is not meant to do so at extremely long or short ones. The same reason applies here. Unless the population you derived your rule of thumb from had sufficiently many athletes with SVJs <10 and >49, your rule of thumb will not apply to those people.
Now, you MIGHT have a point here, but only if you can propose a better model than the percentage based one. Go ahead.
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I don't think there is a model. The only model I can see is that the closer you are to an elite value the harder it will be to improve (just like in anything else in life).
So if you have a 20 inch SVJ it would be easier than if you'd have a 35 inch SVJ. BUT - again - there are so many factors that govern this... if the athlete has sports experience, if the athlete lifted before, his structure, his CNS, his sleep, his nutrition, his endocrine system and so on and so forth.
Therefore I think it's stupid to launch numbers around. I can't understand why one would be limited in his training until he gets to a really good squat number to begin with. And even then he might get a higher VJ by reducing bodyfat or improving his explosiveness or even traditional "plyo" power (even though we talk about SVJ here).
In the end you're going only to be limited by your structure and some CNS characteristics in your SVJ, if you take care of all the other factors. The problem is - very few people do all this.
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So your argument is that making estimations in life where the dependent variable is influenced by lots of factors is "stupid" and "launching numbers around"?
So I guess then that predicting the weather is stupid, predicting stock values is stupid, predicting demographic development is stupid, analyzing the intellectual potential of a child is stupid, etc.
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So your argument is that making estimations in life where the dependent variable is influenced by lots of factors is "stupid" and "launching numbers around"?
So I guess then that predicting the weather is stupid, predicting stock values is stupid, predicting demographic development is stupid, analyzing the intellectual potential of a child is stupid, etc.
What, you don't have an answer for what I said and you came up with this? :ninja:
GETTING BACK TO SQUATTING AND SVJ, what I said holds true. If anything, it's probably easier to increase the SVJ than it is to increase the running VJ if your RVJ technique is already at a high level for your particular structure because the SVJ responds better to strength work and strength is a more alterable quality than reactive stuff.
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So your argument is that making estimations in life where the dependent variable is influenced by lots of factors is "stupid" and "launching numbers around"?
So I guess then that predicting the weather is stupid, predicting stock values is stupid, predicting demographic development is stupid, analyzing the intellectual potential of a child is stupid, etc.
What, you don't have an answer for what I said and you came up with this? :ninja:
I thought I addressed the main point of your post, namely that having a model for something and making estimations with it was "stupid". I do not agree with that, because I have use for estimations. If you don't, that's fine.
What else should I comment on?
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How much have you increased your squat and SVJ with training? And starting from what squat and what SVJ?
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So far:
Squat: 132 lbs x 5 to 435 lbs x 5
SVJ: ~27" to 36"
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Now, you MIGHT have a point here, but only if you can propose a better model than the percentage based one. Go ahead.
I'll try.
Possible inches you can gain =
[ (70-SVJ) * 0.9 *SVJ ] / 3.2[ SVJ - 3 ]
I'm being kinda serious here. i did a few examples and it looks kinda accurate. SVJ = starting SVJ at 17 years old with no prior jump or weightlifting.
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On how many people is this based on and how did you come up with the formula?
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So far:
Squat: 132 lbs x 5 to 435 lbs x 5
SVJ: ~27" to 36"
I got mine from ~20 inches to 30 while taking my squat from 80kgx5 (90 1RM) at 67 kg bodyweight to 120kgx5 (135 1RM) at 82 kg bodyweight. So as you can see that's a 10 inch increase in SVJ and I'm still under 2x in terms of squatting strength. Once and if I ever get to 2.5x I should have ~38-40.
So it's all a matter of strength, strength application and structure as the most important factors (if we're to ignore the factors I talked about in my previous post). So basically it depends IF you can increase your strength as far as a 2x-2.5x squat to reach your genetic limit more or less.
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So far:
Squat: 132 lbs x 5 to 435 lbs x 5
SVJ: ~27" to 36"
I got mine from ~20 inches to 30 while taking my squat from 80kgx5 (90 1RM) at 67 kg bodyweight to 120kgx5 (135 1RM) at 82 kg bodyweight. So as you can see that's a 10 inch increase in SVJ and I'm still under 2x in terms of squatting strength. Once and if I ever get to 2.5x I should have ~38-40.
So it's all a matter of strength, strength application and structure as the most important factors (if we're to ignore the factors I talked about in my previous post). So basically it depends IF you can increase your strength as far as a 2x-2.5x squat to reach your genetic limit more or less.
I do not agree with that and I also cannot see how this is related to the debate at all.
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Hm, so let's see:
If I have a 9 inch vertical jump, I can expect to get to 12 (+30%) but that's pretty much it? And the more I can SVJ the more I gain, right?
If I have a standing 50 inch vertical jump, getting to 66 inch (+30%) would not be impossible, right?
So if I suck having a 9 inch vert I actually have a much lower ceiling of growth than if I were to jump 50 because 30% of a small number is less than 30% of a higher number.
See how idiotic this gets?
If you take a guy who has a 0.7 bodyweight squat and jumps 16 inches and get him to 2.5x, would you expect him to get 30% more on his SVJ OR would you expect him to possibly double that or more?
Estimations like that are never accurate at the extremes. You would not measure the height of the Eiffel Tower or the size of a brain cell with a ruler either. It can measure distances, but it is not meant to do so at extremely long or short ones. The same reason applies here. Unless the population you derived your rule of thumb from had sufficiently many athletes with SVJs <10 and >49, your rule of thumb will not apply to those people.
Now, you MIGHT have a point here, but only if you can propose a better model than the percentage based one. Go ahead.
Let's just say the average person has a 20 inch vertical jump (person, not athlete). That might even be a little high, but do you honestly think that person can't get to a 26-27 inch jump? Hell, they could get that with Air Alert. Now if you're saying after noob gains, it is impossible to increase a vertical jump more than 30%, then I might agree with you.
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Let's just say the average person has a 20 inch vertical jump (person, not athlete). That might even be a little high, but do you honestly think that person can't get to a 26-27 inch jump? Hell, they could get that with Air Alert. Now if you're saying after noob gains, it is impossible to increase a vertical jump more than 30%, then I might agree with you.
26" is exactly what the 30% rule of thumb would predict to happen. And that is not the number *I* found in real life, Rip said so at some point (there were other numbers thrown around as well though) and Kelly agreed with that. I don't have any experience with that, so I don't have an opinion of what constitutes a typical improvement (please everyone note the difference between a typical and a maximal improvement).
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I don't think there's such a thing as a "typical" improvement, unless typical means "the guy reaches ~2.5x squat", since that's the squat value were more strength usually won't transfer too good to explosiveness. If you take a guy from a 0.7x squat and get him to 1.5x squat and he improves by 6 inches and stops his squat improvement to 1.5x instead of continuing to get it up to ~2.5, then how can you say that that's his near max ceiling of improvement?
So in reality you could say "your limit in terms of strength to SVJ improvement is probably a 2.5x squat" instead of throwing a number of inches or a % of the original SVJ around.
So if a guy has a 2.5x squat and jumps 26 inches, besides that he must be humongously unexplosive (and he should train that), then yes you could say that maybe the structure is very bad for jumping and therefore he doesn't have much ceiling to improvement.
But if you take formerly weak people, regardless of structure, with say a 1x untrained squat and get them to 2.5x, wouldn't you expect them to improve a lot? The only factor at that point becomes if they ARE ABLE to get to that ~2.5x number.
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The major confounding variable is most people that train for VJ start at an early enough age where they still do a lot of growing and physical maturity over time and, assuming an active enough lifestyle, just the general maturation process tends to contribute to gains up until about the age of ~26.
A 26 year old athlete may have very little in common with his own self at 15 yrs of age.
If you were talking about mature adults who initiate training Rips comments are much more likely to be accurate or even on the high end. A 26 year old who begins training doesn't have the same potential for improvement as a 15 yr old because he's already physically developed. Having said that, I have one 37 year old client who didn't start training until he was in his 30's and still managed to put 10 + inches on his SVJ. The guy has some very unique physical traits though his results would definitely be outlier in nature.
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Very unique physical traits? Wait, what?
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I started at 27 and have more than doubled my SVJ. Although to be fair I was almost intentionally de-training SVJ type qualities by running long distance (20km plus) and being weak as fark (no strength training).
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I started at 27 and have more than doubled my SVJ. Although to be fair I was almost intentionally de-training SVJ type qualities by running long distance (20km plus) and being weak as fark (no strength training).
When I first read it I was like "oh man, this guy has a 54 inch vert!".
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Are the folks here the source of that SS thread? If so, very good to meet you.
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Are the folks here the source of that SS thread? If so, very good to meet you.
possibly, haha.
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I started at 27 and have more than doubled my SVJ. Although to be fair I was almost intentionally de-training SVJ type qualities by running long distance (20km plus) and being weak as fark (no strength training).
When I first read it I was like "oh man, this guy has a 54 inch vert!".
lmao!