Author Topic: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?  (Read 14788 times)

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steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2012, 09:20:03 pm »
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Quote
MON: Gym - heavy legs (mainly quads, glutes)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Squats 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- BSS 3x8
- Calf raise 3x20
- Hip thrust 3x10
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them

TUES: Track
- ME sprints 3-6x30-50m
- DL bounds 3x8
- LRLR bounds very submax 5x8-10 (i am so bad at these that i literally can't go ME)
- low-volume interval sprints

WED: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch

THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- power snatches x10-15, doubles or singles
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- Jump squats 2x3
- Depth jumps 4x4
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them

FRI: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (DLRVJ, SLRVJ, SVJ)

SAT: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch

SUN: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (more effort than Fri)


I personally think that this is very light on strength work for your situation. I don't know how long you want to do this and how you plan to progress, but IMO you lack raw strength. For example, I love power snatches for athletes, but I am not even sure you have any business training them right now. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am sure they will be a great addition to your training a couple weeks/months out, but right now there is too little strength to express through this movement. You will increase them at first, but probably get stuck after a couple of work-outs. You will also not benefit as much as others because they are probably too light and you might not be efficient enough right now for them to represent a significant training stress in themselves. There is a lot of redundancy in there as well that I do not really like for novices.

My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2012, 03:00:21 am »
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@lancests re: jonesy video: ohhhhhhhh, i get it. thank you.

@steven-miller

thanks for your thoughts. i mean that genuinely, despite what you will read in the next sentence. this might just be the pride talking, but please go fuck yourself for calling me a novice. to be fair, i'm still quite a novice at reactive-type things. or, if not a novice, still bad at them.

squats and basic jumps are what i've been doing for two years. improvement of at most 4.5 inches on DLRVJ in that time despite a 50 pound increase in squat and no change in BW. i know my squat still ain't great and -- before you point it out because god knows you'll want to -- i know 50 pounds is not great as far as 2-year improvements go. but i squat 2x bw. it's "enough" for now. i could always be stronger, but i think what's holding me back is more the inefficiency and lack of power.

the point is, i need to try something else.

also, if i get back home and the intro block i planned sees me making continuous gains, i'm not going to switch to this just because. i'll stick with the squats and jumps, jumps and squats. simplicity is a good principle for training. but this plan is also simple, just has a bigger focus on jumping and sprinting and a lower focus on strength. and if i don't make improvements on it, i'll stop.

on the other hand, you're probably right about there not being enough strength work. perhaps i should squat on the second strength day, as well, perhaps in place of the depth jumps. and you might be right about power snatches being inefficient and very light for me right now. still, they're light enough to also not be draining and it can't hurt to keep learning the movement. so thursday could be:

THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- power snatches x10-15, doubles or singles
- Jump squats 2x3
- squat 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them

anyone else on that tweak?
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2012, 10:08:43 am »
+1
I guess I asked for the "go fuck yourself" although I do not use the term "novice" as a negative term at all and not in regards to jumping/reactivity/explosiveness anyways. What I refer to with that is just your potential to improve, which is A LOT LOT higher than for example mine in regards to general strength. And general strength is such an easy thing to develop and it is long lasting and useful in every athletic endeavor. And despite that, you left yours underdeveloped and refer to a lack of weight increase as if it mattered. Had you eaten like an athlete and pushed your squat you would probably be throwing around 400 by now. Would your approach jump be a lot higher? Maybe not, maybe only 2 inches, but that is something right? And your SVJ would certainly not be 26". When I see your video I see an athlete that jumps quite high DESPITE his obvious lack of muscle mass and strength. Both can be fixed easily for you, but that would require the realization that this is the case in the first place.

Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 10:10:46 am by steven-miller »

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2012, 01:00:20 pm »
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I guess I asked for the "go fuck yourself"

you did.



Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.


this is true, too. so what would you suggest? "squats plus jumps plus one explosive exercise" does not help because that's what i've been doing, in some for another. so what do you suggest? what is characteristic of a "more aggressive approach" than what i've been doing? keep in mind that i have little flexibility in my work hours and no choice about taking these periodic trips to places like pakistan and afghanistan, during which i inevitably regress.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 01:14:04 pm by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Kingfish

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 01:53:04 pm »
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My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.

i'm not very consistent on the explosive lift cycles (i do barbell jump squats occasionally more as a form of squat deloading) and IMO - you can do without them, and still be able to transfer your strength made from the heavy compounds into your jumps just by jumping.



5'10" | 210lbs | 39 yrs
reach - 7'8" (92") |paused full squat - 545x1| standing VJ - 40"|

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Daily Squats Day 1 - Aug 30, 2011 and still going.

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2012, 03:35:24 pm »
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I think the only thing holding people back from using "just jumping" as a good plyometric workout (and 100% specific to what they actually want to increase) is jumping while not completely recovered.

That's why IMO people need to pay more attention to recovery/programming to actually benefit from the squat + jump equation.

steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2012, 07:03:38 pm »
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Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.

this is true, too. so what would you suggest? "squats plus jumps plus one explosive exercise" does not help because that's what i've been doing, in some for another. so what do you suggest? what is characteristic of a "more aggressive approach" than what i've been doing? keep in mind that i have little flexibility in my work hours and no choice about taking these periodic trips to places like pakistan and afghanistan, during which i inevitably regress.

If all you did was pushing your strength in the squat and jumping, how is it, that it took 2 years for a 50 lbs increase? And how is it that you consider a 4+ inch improvement in DLRVJ "not working" regarding such a small strength increase? My outlook is that your strength training, inefficient as it may have been, was successful in that it lead to a greatly higher jump. Therefore I think you should continue focusing on strength and this time do so in a way that maximizes your gains. "A more aggressive approach" makes you forget about keeping your bodyweight down and focus instead on getting some muscle on your body with which it can move itself around more explosively. Programming wise nothing is needed except the really basic things I named earlier. Hell, I am really generous with the variety, kingfish would have you squat every day and drop anything else ;-).

My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.

i'm not very consistent on the explosive lift cycles (i do barbell jump squats occasionally more as a form of squat deloading) and IMO - you can do without them, and still be able to transfer your strength made from the heavy compounds into your jumps just by jumping.

I agree fully, you can do without them if you do your jumping. But I insist that including powercleans or powersnatches makes it a lot easier to overcome an explosive strength deficit and I find it a better training method to do this with their help since PRs in the quick lifts are programmable with some reliability and PRs in jumping are not.

I think the only thing holding people back from using "just jumping" as a good plyometric workout (and 100% specific to what they actually want to increase) is jumping while not completely recovered.

That's why IMO people need to pay more attention to recovery/programming to actually benefit from the squat + jump equation.

What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 07:05:29 pm by steven-miller »

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2012, 07:49:28 pm »
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What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?

I think we don't keep enough of an eye on fatigue accumulation during the workout and during a phase (or cycle). We also have this tendency/obsession to go to failure when lifting.

IMO, if more emphasis would be put on bar speed instead of actual failure, we'd have better recovery (due to stopping before failure (stopping when the bar speed slows down)), better specificity (faster movements in say the squat) and more time to perform jumps at a higher intensity (and therefore adapting to that kind of strong neural signals when jumping).

So there's a bunch of stuff that could be improved if our focus would be on bar speed and recovery vs. going on a ton of volume and training to failure overall when lifting, and then being so tired when jumping. It doesn't make any sense. Lifting should be suplimentary to jumping and not the other way around.

steven-miller

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2012, 08:04:19 pm »
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What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?

I think we don't keep enough of an eye on fatigue accumulation during the workout and during a phase (or cycle). We also have this tendency/obsession to go to failure when lifting.

IMO, if more emphasis would be put on bar speed instead of actual failure, we'd have better recovery (due to stopping before failure (stopping when the bar speed slows down)), better specificity (faster movements in say the squat) and more time to perform jumps at a higher intensity (and therefore adapting to that kind of strong neural signals when jumping).

So there's a bunch of stuff that could be improved if our focus would be on bar speed and recovery vs. going on a ton of volume and training to failure overall when lifting, and then being so tired when jumping. It doesn't make any sense. Lifting should be suplimentary to jumping and not the other way around.

I agree that going to failure as regular part of a program is not necessary to make progress for most trainees. But your suggestion leaves open how much fatigue is okay and when we should stop. I think that your suggestion would lead to people stopping to squat as soon as it gets "hard", which, as I know from plenty of observation, leads to absolutely nowhere.

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2012, 08:09:05 pm »
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Yeah I know. It probably works best the most advanced you are (where advanced = experienced).

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 09:52:13 am »
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STEVEN-MILLER IS VERY CONVINCING. SOMEONE CONTRADICT HIM OR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW HIS ADVICE.

also, i lost five pounds on my trip so now is probably as good a time as any to eat a lot and see what happens.
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

T0ddday

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2012, 03:05:42 am »
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STEVEN-MILLER IS VERY CONVINCING. SOMEONE CONTRADICT HIM OR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW HIS ADVICE.

also, i lost five pounds on my trip so now is probably as good a time as any to eat a lot and see what happens.

Sorry, I have been out of town and haven't gotten back to the thread.  I'll do my best to contradict Steven... 

You said you care only about being able to dunk.  That's your singular goal.  You also have listed your double leg vertical and approach jump... but you do a lot of bounding it seems, are you a really efficient single leg jumper?  If your single leg running vertical jump is close to giving you the ability to dunk then you can probably reach your goal with minimal squatting if any at all.  We have added 4-5 inches to semi-experienced high jumpers' running single leg jump with next to zero weightlifting.

Steven's advice is good if you want to get overall stronger, make yourself more athletic and powerful overall for a long time, and get a good strength surplus which will help you in most sports involving power.  However... if your goal is to dunk in the minimum amount of time... it might not be your best bet provided you are a good single leg jumper. 

If that's the goal you are going to need to do a lot of work on the track and on your bounding.  I personally would drop the single leg deer bounding (LRLRLR) you posted on the video for now.  It's not a super necessary skill for you (and your not expressing much strength in it) unless you are interested in triple jumping.  Your best bet is to get a good coach, drill your overhead shot throws, drill your single leg bounding (LLL, RRR), practice your pop-ups, run-throughs, standing single legs, 3-steps, etc.  Basically, getting better at single leg jumping is going to involve you getting a bit faster and also acquiring the skill to take off while running a little closer to top speed.   

Additionally you are going to have to start putting in a lot of work dunking a basketball off one leg.  Dunking is always a skill.  But dunking "skill" when jumping from a standing vertical might be worth 2 inches of jumping height, while it's huge when jumping off one leg.   

LBSS

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2012, 01:52:13 pm »
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thank you, t0ddddddday. a coach is unlikely because i can't afford one, and also to be honest because i wouldn't even know where to start looking for a decent track coach. i know an excellent strength/gymnastics coach (this guy: http://www.beastskills.com/) and a good oly lifting coach. both are friends. but no one who knows jack about sprinting or jumping. which is why this forum is great.

getting better at single-leg jumping is a secondary goal to being able to dunk. i'd be perfectly happy with a dunk off two feet, off a lob. that would count in my own judgment of myself, which at the end of the day is what i care about. and i'm much closer to that in any case. my guess, though, is that getting better at SL jumping would help the DLRVJ.

so, you'd recommend something like what i'd posted before, but with overhead shot throws, single leg bounding, pop-ups, run-throughs, standing single legs, 3-steps, etc.? i don't know what the bold ones are. tweaked program is below, with changes in bold where i remembered to do it. thursday is per the updated version i did after steven reminded me that i should squat more often. i made good gains about 6-8 months ago on multiple MSEM sessions per week.

MON: Gym - heavy legs (mainly quads, glutes)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Squats 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- BSS 3x8
- Calf raise 3x20
- Hip thrust 3x10
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them

TUES: Track
- ME sprints 3-6x30-50m
- DL bounds 4x8
- LLL RRR bounds submax 4-6x8-10
- low-volume interval sprints

WED: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch

THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- SLRVJ drills (standing single leg, 3-step submax)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Jump squats 2x3
- squat 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- calf raise 3 x 20
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them

FRI: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (DLRVJ, SLRVJ, SVJ)

SAT: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch

SUN: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (more effort than Fri)
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

- Avishek

https://www.savannahstate.edu/cost/nrotc/documents/Inform2010-thearmstrongworkout_Enclosure15_5-2-10.pdf

black lives matter

Raptor

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2012, 02:14:21 pm »
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Why don't you give Joel Smith's program a try. I did it in the past and was jumping ~36-38 off one leg then.

http://jumpcoach.blogspot.ro/2008/12/merry-christmas.html

T0ddday

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Re: stole acole14's program and adapted it for myself - thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2012, 01:29:15 am »
+1


Gymnastics is a great sport.  I spent a summer training gymnastics athletes awhile back (even learned this cool trick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saN9GvUaiFs ), and I was actually surprised by what I thought was rather poor sprinting and jumping performance.  I had figured that their ridiculous strength to bodyweight ratios would have them jumping higher and running faster but I guess it was a lesson in specificity.  

That's unfortunate about the jumps coach.  Do you live in the USA?  The nice thing (for trainees, not athletes!) about track and field is that there really isn't a bunch of money in the sport and as such all but the very elite have to make a living after track... so it's often easy to find a really superb coach in many colleges and track clubs.  I do live in one of the best cities in the country for track and field, but I imagine if you live in a major city you might be able to find a track club who either has or could hook you up with a jumps coach.  Here in LA I see Mike Powell training athletes twice a week at UCLA.  Of course, he charges something 400.00 per session... but it's not much to pay for the best long jumper in the history of the world ( I imagine michael jordan would cost a bit more).  

As far as your program... The focus on SL jumping is basically how I would respond if someone about 5'10 or taller came to me and said I need to dunk a basketball as soon as humanely possible.  Of course my background is mostly training track athletes who have pretty decent movement efficiency already... but if that WAS the case I would focus almost strictly on single leg jumping and would not have the athlete squatting or gaining weight like Steven recommended.  

However if you goals are slightly more long term and general (sounds like they are because you say you want to dunk off two feet) then I would agree more strongly with Stevens recommendation that it's in your best interest to become overall MUCH stronger even if you gain a bit of bodyweight in the process.  As far as the template you have written out... You might be a really detail oriented person and able to follow that to a tee (but I sure couldn't and most athletes couldn't...) but I would recommend something much much much simpler which focuses a much more on progress-measurable compound lifts and measurable jumps.   Basically I would keep the non measurable stuff to part of the warmup or include it in a circuit toward the end of your training, unless it's specifically intended to bring up an obvious issue.

I don't want to beat up your template too much but I would recommend something like this, develop a measurable jumping/running/track workout where you do dynamic warmup/strides before bounding and bounding before sprinting.  For example:

*** Track Workout ***

1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).

- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -

1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)
 
- Running -

1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)

** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)

**** Weights/Gym Workout ****

1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat.   Work up to a challenging but not max single.  Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc.  This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference:  Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more.  Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's really all you need.  Try to do the track/bound workout 2x per week and then weights 2x week.  If you have more time then you can add another day of weights or add 1-2 more days of track tempo (ie 6-8 x 150 or 200m at 75%) if you need it for fat loss. You can arrange it however you want such as Monday: Track Workout, Tues: Weights, W: Track tempo, R: Track workout (AM), Weights (PM).  Friday rest, Sat: Weights (AM) Track Tempo (PM).

The goal for a template like this is for you to make progress.  In 8 weeks make you goal to add 10-15 pounds to your powerclean 20-30 to your squat and a couple inches or feet to all your measured jumps.

Sorry to write such a long post, sorta didn't realize how much I would change it till I got started...  It's not that your template is that poor, but I just favor an athlete program in the important measurable quantities he needs to improve (and gets to work at these multiple times per week), and use the axillarys to either bring up weakness/rehab or as part of a circuit.   You will notice that I actually put double leg jumping after squatting.  Surprisingly, standing jumping after squatting can actually help, but single leg jumping and bounding should be done before.  I also took things out of your program such as 3x8 hip thrusts once per week and 3x8 BSS once per week.  I personally, dont think you can really measure progress doing things like 3x8 BSS once per week.  If there is a really necessary reason why you do the hip thrusts (ie you have serious problems with glute activation, then put them back in as part of the warmup or circuit or do them daily for a while).  

Good luck!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 01:34:37 am by T0ddday »