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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: LBSS on June 13, 2012, 02:36:47 am
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***cross-posted from my journal.***
i've been thinking about what to do when i get back from this trip. there will obviously need to be a couple of weeks to get things back up to a reasonable level -- i hope the drop-off will not be as severe as my last couple of trips. at least i put some decent work in in islamabad haven't lost ten pounds like i did in afghanistan last year. that was bad.
at any rate, i really like acole14's setup so i think i will steal/modify it for myself. once my strength is back up to a reasonable level, i need to increase my focus on speed, power, and reactiveness. strength is okay but i remain slooooow, SVJ is no better than 26" even though my DLRVJ got as high as 34+ max and 32+ consistently for a while in there. and SLRVJ is, as discussed with raptor in the knee collapse thread, a joke. i think improving bounding, leaping and sprinting will give me a boost. literally. also, calf work. without further ado, draft plan for the summer:
note: warm ups will always include glute activation, e.g., lancests wall poses, and submax jumps of various kinds, including SLRVJ's, skips for height, line hops, etc.
transition weeks will be (TF=technical failure, i.e., until it gets worse than normal):
MTW(S/Su)
- DLRVJ/depth jump x TF/4x4
- MR half tuck 3 x TF
- power snatch/drills
- squat 2-3x5-8
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
then once i've got the squat back up to ~2x5x285 again i'll start in on the fun stuff, as follows:
MON: Gym - heavy legs (mainly quads, glutes)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Squats 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- BSS 3x8
- Calf raise 3x20
- Hip thrust 3x10
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
TUES: Track
- ME sprints 3-6x30-50m
- DL bounds 3x8
- LRLR bounds very submax 5x8-10 (i am so bad at these that i literally can't go ME)
- low-volume interval sprints
WED: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- power snatches x10-15, doubles or singles
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- Jump squats 2x3
- Depth jumps 4x4
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
FRI: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (DLRVJ, SLRVJ, SVJ)
SAT: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
SUN: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (more effort than Fri)
once again, all love to acole14 for the template. any thoughts? might try to do tuesdays and fridays in the morning, as those workouts will be shorter and that'll allow more rest before the next pair of workouts, unless people think that's dumb.
i'll follow acole's ON/ON/OFF schedule week-wise, keeping volume the same but dropping load in the third week, unless there is a planned off week that i can't help, in which case i'll go with on weeks until then. for example, going to two out-of-town weddings this summer. so those weekends will be off whether i like it or not. hopefully the combination of booze/rest those bring will lead to big jumps the week after. :highfive:
i really need to get my brother's bike back in action and start using it.
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Hey man, glad you like it! It's worked pretty well for me I think. I agree that doing Tues/Fri earlier in the day is good: in my experience, you need the extra rest to do the Thurs/Sun sessions at a good intensity level. The only hard bit is that it can difficult to transition mentally from Sunday jumps into the next block on Monday, but so long as on Sunday night you have a really good rest/foam roll/cold bath, then it's usually OK.
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I like!
ON-ON-OFF is great , including bounds is great too.
Upper body stuff is missing , don't totally nelglect it , FRI or SAT seem more convenient for a regular upper lifting day , then maybe you can squeeze some RP sets on MON or TUE gym days.
Also , in the less relevant thread, huge props to acole14 for the recent PRs!!!
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Upper body stuff is missing , don't totally nelglect it ,
Yeah. It's not a bad idea to put the upper body lifts on maintenance (reduce volume as much as possible while maintaining bar weight) while you focus on lower body.
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It's weird because right now I'm focusing completely on the upperbody as far as strength goes, and for the legs I just play ball and dunk, and do the occassional swing and pistol. I never thought I'd be doing this.
So yeah, I believe upperbody is important because it gives you a certain "rhythm" when you jump and arm swing, and having powerful upperbody muscles potentiate the leg muscles through irradiation. So don't ignore that!
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Yeah I should have said: I also do wide-grip chins, DB shoulder press, DB flys etc on Mondays/Thursdays (usually 4-5 sets of 6-7 reps for chins and 3x10-12 for other misc upper body exercises, just enough to maintain strength).
I like!
ON-ON-OFF is great , including bounds is great too.
Upper body stuff is missing , don't totally nelglect it , FRI or SAT seem more convenient for a regular upper lifting day , then maybe you can squeeze some RP sets on MON or TUE gym days.
Also , in the less relevant thread, huge props to acole14 for the recent PRs!!!
Thanks Vag! Keep up your good work also.
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Yeah I should have said: I also do wide-grip chins, DB shoulder press, DB flys etc on Mondays/Thursdays (usually 4-5 sets of 6-7 reps for chins and 3x10-12 for other misc upper body exercises, just enough to maintain strength).
I like!
ON-ON-OFF is great , including bounds is great too.
Upper body stuff is missing , don't totally nelglect it , FRI or SAT seem more convenient for a regular upper lifting day , then maybe you can squeeze some RP sets on MON or TUE gym days.
Also , in the less relevant thread, huge props to acole14 for the recent PRs!!!
Thanks Vag! Keep up your good work also.
UB=upper body in the plan. i'll keep doing things moderate volume, moderate rest, in supersets. pull ups, OHP, bench, rows, variations thereof. or maybe i'll do RP. point will be to get work in on upper body but not allow it to become something i focus too much time or energy on.
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Sorry, you may have mentioned it before but what kind of athlete are you? Are you competing in the jumps or sprints or just interested in jumping high vertically?
You claim you are really unreactive, do you have any videos of this unreactivity on display, for example of your bounding attempts?
I ask because you said your approach vertical is 34 inches but your standing vertical is only 26 inches... that doesn't sound like an athlete whose super slow and unreactive!
All, said your template looks good even though I am a little lost on the terminology, but the main point (focusing on the specifics) is something I will always agree with.
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Sorry, you may have mentioned it before but what kind of athlete are you? Are you competing in the jumps or sprints or just interested in jumping high vertically?
You claim you are really unreactive, do you have any videos of this unreactivity on display, for example of your bounding attempts?
I ask because you said your approach vertical is 34 inches but your standing vertical is only 26 inches... that doesn't sound like an athlete whose super slow and unreactive!
All, said your template looks good even though I am a little lost on the terminology, but the main point (focusing on the specifics) is something I will always agree with.
i'm just trying to dunk. once i can i'll get back into competitive sports but for the time being it's just that. whether that's getting back into ultimate (which i stopped playing because i started spraining my ankle at least once a summer and that gets in the way of, well, everything), i don't know. my standing vert would probably be better if i EVER practiced it. i have gotten much, much more efficient at DLRVJ because i've done it more consistently. i'm not completely without reactive ability -- actually, i'd say i'm probably average -- but what athletic ability i have doesn't seem to lend itself to fast-twitch things.
here's a video of a couple jumps from last month. ordinary-ish day, these are around 32. i don't always jump-stop that badly. also, i put one of my first-ever attempts at LRLR bounds on the video, too, although it's almost too embarrassing to post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMgzORu7rek
i will take and post more video when i get home. sprints, SVJ, DL and SL bounds, DLRVJ and SLRVJ.
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I vote your SVJ would got up a few inches with practice. Your jumps look solid and strong but not overly reactive. I feel your pain in the fast-twitch dept. In fact your run up and plant looks damn familiar .
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I vote your SVJ would got up a few inches with practice. Your jumps look solid and strong but not overly reactive. I feel your pain in the fast-twitch dept. In fact your run up and plant looks damn familiar .
you're right about the SVJ. true of SLRVJ, too. as you'll see when i get some video up, they're so ugly that they can't not improve.
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LBSS, if youll work on your approach a little and Id put money on it you would improve some almost instantly. Lead with your TORSO as you start the approach, youre leaning to the rear when youre trying to accelerate.
Simply doing that will help you stay lower and accelerate more into that last step. Watch some of the good dunkers that plant lr like golden child and look at their torso position as they approach, compare and see if it makes a difference for you. At the very least it will help you smooth out that approach and come in lower with more speed and power.
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LBSS, if youll work on your approach a little and Id put money on it you would improve some almost instantly. Lead with your TORSO as you start the approach, youre leaning to the rear when youre trying to accelerate.
Simply doing that will help you stay lower and accelerate more into that last step. Watch some of the good dunkers that plant lr like golden child and look at their torso position as they approach, compare and see if it makes a difference for you. At the very least it will help you smooth out that approach and come in lower with more speed and power.
hm never thought about that before. was trying to find a video of him where they show his whole approach but the internet is too slow here (in dubai). will try it when i get home.
thanks.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyp9KCiULcY
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oh and squats lookin good :ibsquatting:
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MON: Gym - heavy legs (mainly quads, glutes)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Squats 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- BSS 3x8
- Calf raise 3x20
- Hip thrust 3x10
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
TUES: Track
- ME sprints 3-6x30-50m
- DL bounds 3x8
- LRLR bounds very submax 5x8-10 (i am so bad at these that i literally can't go ME)
- low-volume interval sprints
WED: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- power snatches x10-15, doubles or singles
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- Jump squats 2x3
- Depth jumps 4x4
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
FRI: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (DLRVJ, SLRVJ, SVJ)
SAT: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
SUN: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (more effort than Fri)
I personally think that this is very light on strength work for your situation. I don't know how long you want to do this and how you plan to progress, but IMO you lack raw strength. For example, I love power snatches for athletes, but I am not even sure you have any business training them right now. Please do not take this the wrong way, I am sure they will be a great addition to your training a couple weeks/months out, but right now there is too little strength to express through this movement. You will increase them at first, but probably get stuck after a couple of work-outs. You will also not benefit as much as others because they are probably too light and you might not be efficient enough right now for them to represent a significant training stress in themselves. There is a lot of redundancy in there as well that I do not really like for novices.
My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.
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@lancests re: jonesy video: ohhhhhhhh, i get it. thank you.
@steven-miller
thanks for your thoughts. i mean that genuinely, despite what you will read in the next sentence. this might just be the pride talking, but please go fuck yourself for calling me a novice. to be fair, i'm still quite a novice at reactive-type things. or, if not a novice, still bad at them.
squats and basic jumps are what i've been doing for two years. improvement of at most 4.5 inches on DLRVJ in that time despite a 50 pound increase in squat and no change in BW. i know my squat still ain't great and -- before you point it out because god knows you'll want to -- i know 50 pounds is not great as far as 2-year improvements go. but i squat 2x bw. it's "enough" for now. i could always be stronger, but i think what's holding me back is more the inefficiency and lack of power.
the point is, i need to try something else.
also, if i get back home and the intro block i planned sees me making continuous gains, i'm not going to switch to this just because. i'll stick with the squats and jumps, jumps and squats. simplicity is a good principle for training. but this plan is also simple, just has a bigger focus on jumping and sprinting and a lower focus on strength. and if i don't make improvements on it, i'll stop.
on the other hand, you're probably right about there not being enough strength work. perhaps i should squat on the second strength day, as well, perhaps in place of the depth jumps. and you might be right about power snatches being inefficient and very light for me right now. still, they're light enough to also not be draining and it can't hurt to keep learning the movement. so thursday could be:
THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- power snatches x10-15, doubles or singles
- Jump squats 2x3
- squat 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
anyone else on that tweak?
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I guess I asked for the "go fuck yourself" although I do not use the term "novice" as a negative term at all and not in regards to jumping/reactivity/explosiveness anyways. What I refer to with that is just your potential to improve, which is A LOT LOT higher than for example mine in regards to general strength. And general strength is such an easy thing to develop and it is long lasting and useful in every athletic endeavor. And despite that, you left yours underdeveloped and refer to a lack of weight increase as if it mattered. Had you eaten like an athlete and pushed your squat you would probably be throwing around 400 by now. Would your approach jump be a lot higher? Maybe not, maybe only 2 inches, but that is something right? And your SVJ would certainly not be 26". When I see your video I see an athlete that jumps quite high DESPITE his obvious lack of muscle mass and strength. Both can be fixed easily for you, but that would require the realization that this is the case in the first place.
Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.
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I guess I asked for the "go fuck yourself"
you did.
Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.
this is true, too. so what would you suggest? "squats plus jumps plus one explosive exercise" does not help because that's what i've been doing, in some for another. so what do you suggest? what is characteristic of a "more aggressive approach" than what i've been doing? keep in mind that i have little flexibility in my work hours and no choice about taking these periodic trips to places like pakistan and afghanistan, during which i inevitably regress.
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My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.
i'm not very consistent on the explosive lift cycles (i do barbell jump squats occasionally more as a form of squat deloading) and IMO - you can do without them, and still be able to transfer your strength made from the heavy compounds into your jumps just by jumping.
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I think the only thing holding people back from using "just jumping" as a good plyometric workout (and 100% specific to what they actually want to increase) is jumping while not completely recovered.
That's why IMO people need to pay more attention to recovery/programming to actually benefit from the squat + jump equation.
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Btw., a 4.5 increase in DLRVJ for 50 lbs in squat weight is massive. What is holding you back is reluctance to taking a more aggressive approach to training and improvement.
this is true, too. so what would you suggest? "squats plus jumps plus one explosive exercise" does not help because that's what i've been doing, in some for another. so what do you suggest? what is characteristic of a "more aggressive approach" than what i've been doing? keep in mind that i have little flexibility in my work hours and no choice about taking these periodic trips to places like pakistan and afghanistan, during which i inevitably regress.
If all you did was pushing your strength in the squat and jumping, how is it, that it took 2 years for a 50 lbs increase? And how is it that you consider a 4+ inch improvement in DLRVJ "not working" regarding such a small strength increase? My outlook is that your strength training, inefficient as it may have been, was successful in that it lead to a greatly higher jump. Therefore I think you should continue focusing on strength and this time do so in a way that maximizes your gains. "A more aggressive approach" makes you forget about keeping your bodyweight down and focus instead on getting some muscle on your body with which it can move itself around more explosively. Programming wise nothing is needed except the really basic things I named earlier. Hell, I am really generous with the variety, kingfish would have you squat every day and drop anything else ;-).
My advice would be to focus on basic strength work and a form of max effort jumps. Squats, deadlifts and one(!) explosive lift (preferably powerclean) should be that basic strength work and max effort jumps can be done in addition. If you have to, keep the BSS if you are interested in single leg jumps as well. If you squat heavy on Monday, you might do them on Wednesday, so that Friday can be squats again. You have to treat them as a main exercise for them to be of any worth IMO.
i'm not very consistent on the explosive lift cycles (i do barbell jump squats occasionally more as a form of squat deloading) and IMO - you can do without them, and still be able to transfer your strength made from the heavy compounds into your jumps just by jumping.
I agree fully, you can do without them if you do your jumping. But I insist that including powercleans or powersnatches makes it a lot easier to overcome an explosive strength deficit and I find it a better training method to do this with their help since PRs in the quick lifts are programmable with some reliability and PRs in jumping are not.
I think the only thing holding people back from using "just jumping" as a good plyometric workout (and 100% specific to what they actually want to increase) is jumping while not completely recovered.
That's why IMO people need to pay more attention to recovery/programming to actually benefit from the squat + jump equation.
What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?
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What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?
I think we don't keep enough of an eye on fatigue accumulation during the workout and during a phase (or cycle). We also have this tendency/obsession to go to failure when lifting.
IMO, if more emphasis would be put on bar speed instead of actual failure, we'd have better recovery (due to stopping before failure (stopping when the bar speed slows down)), better specificity (faster movements in say the squat) and more time to perform jumps at a higher intensity (and therefore adapting to that kind of strong neural signals when jumping).
So there's a bunch of stuff that could be improved if our focus would be on bar speed and recovery vs. going on a ton of volume and training to failure overall when lifting, and then being so tired when jumping. It doesn't make any sense. Lifting should be suplimentary to jumping and not the other way around.
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What do you suggest people should do to improve their recovery, so that squats + jumps begins to work effectively for everyone?
I think we don't keep enough of an eye on fatigue accumulation during the workout and during a phase (or cycle). We also have this tendency/obsession to go to failure when lifting.
IMO, if more emphasis would be put on bar speed instead of actual failure, we'd have better recovery (due to stopping before failure (stopping when the bar speed slows down)), better specificity (faster movements in say the squat) and more time to perform jumps at a higher intensity (and therefore adapting to that kind of strong neural signals when jumping).
So there's a bunch of stuff that could be improved if our focus would be on bar speed and recovery vs. going on a ton of volume and training to failure overall when lifting, and then being so tired when jumping. It doesn't make any sense. Lifting should be suplimentary to jumping and not the other way around.
I agree that going to failure as regular part of a program is not necessary to make progress for most trainees. But your suggestion leaves open how much fatigue is okay and when we should stop. I think that your suggestion would lead to people stopping to squat as soon as it gets "hard", which, as I know from plenty of observation, leads to absolutely nowhere.
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Yeah I know. It probably works best the most advanced you are (where advanced = experienced).
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STEVEN-MILLER IS VERY CONVINCING. SOMEONE CONTRADICT HIM OR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW HIS ADVICE.
also, i lost five pounds on my trip so now is probably as good a time as any to eat a lot and see what happens.
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STEVEN-MILLER IS VERY CONVINCING. SOMEONE CONTRADICT HIM OR I'M GOING TO FOLLOW HIS ADVICE.
also, i lost five pounds on my trip so now is probably as good a time as any to eat a lot and see what happens.
Sorry, I have been out of town and haven't gotten back to the thread. I'll do my best to contradict Steven...
You said you care only about being able to dunk. That's your singular goal. You also have listed your double leg vertical and approach jump... but you do a lot of bounding it seems, are you a really efficient single leg jumper? If your single leg running vertical jump is close to giving you the ability to dunk then you can probably reach your goal with minimal squatting if any at all. We have added 4-5 inches to semi-experienced high jumpers' running single leg jump with next to zero weightlifting.
Steven's advice is good if you want to get overall stronger, make yourself more athletic and powerful overall for a long time, and get a good strength surplus which will help you in most sports involving power. However... if your goal is to dunk in the minimum amount of time... it might not be your best bet provided you are a good single leg jumper.
If that's the goal you are going to need to do a lot of work on the track and on your bounding. I personally would drop the single leg deer bounding (LRLRLR) you posted on the video for now. It's not a super necessary skill for you (and your not expressing much strength in it) unless you are interested in triple jumping. Your best bet is to get a good coach, drill your overhead shot throws, drill your single leg bounding (LLL, RRR), practice your pop-ups, run-throughs, standing single legs, 3-steps, etc. Basically, getting better at single leg jumping is going to involve you getting a bit faster and also acquiring the skill to take off while running a little closer to top speed.
Additionally you are going to have to start putting in a lot of work dunking a basketball off one leg. Dunking is always a skill. But dunking "skill" when jumping from a standing vertical might be worth 2 inches of jumping height, while it's huge when jumping off one leg.
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thank you, t0ddddddday. a coach is unlikely because i can't afford one, and also to be honest because i wouldn't even know where to start looking for a decent track coach. i know an excellent strength/gymnastics coach (this guy: http://www.beastskills.com/) and a good oly lifting coach. both are friends. but no one who knows jack about sprinting or jumping. which is why this forum is great.
getting better at single-leg jumping is a secondary goal to being able to dunk. i'd be perfectly happy with a dunk off two feet, off a lob. that would count in my own judgment of myself, which at the end of the day is what i care about. and i'm much closer to that in any case. my guess, though, is that getting better at SL jumping would help the DLRVJ.
so, you'd recommend something like what i'd posted before, but with overhead shot throws, single leg bounding, pop-ups, run-throughs, standing single legs, 3-steps, etc.? i don't know what the bold ones are. tweaked program is below, with changes in bold where i remembered to do it. thursday is per the updated version i did after steven reminded me that i should squat more often. i made good gains about 6-8 months ago on multiple MSEM sessions per week.
MON: Gym - heavy legs (mainly quads, glutes)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Squats 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- BSS 3x8
- Calf raise 3x20
- Hip thrust 3x10
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
TUES: Track
- ME sprints 3-6x30-50m
- DL bounds 4x8
- LLL RRR bounds submax 4-6x8-10
- low-volume interval sprints
WED: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
THURS: Gym (explosive exercises/hamstrings)
- SLRVJ drills (standing single leg, 3-step submax)
- DLRVJ x5-15 depending on feeling
- Jump squats 2x3
- squat 3x3 @85% OR 2x3 MSEM @ 90-95%
- RDL/GHR 3x8 (start really light, this is going to murder me at first)
- calf raise 3 x 20
- Core, UB superset/circuit as I've been doing them
FRI: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (DLRVJ, SLRVJ, SVJ)
SAT: Rest OR optional Cardio
- light jump rope/foam roll/stretch
OR
- medium-volume interval sprints/foam roll/stretch
SUN: Jumps
- 6+ of each jump (more effort than Fri)
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Why don't you give Joel Smith's program a try. I did it in the past and was jumping ~36-38 off one leg then.
http://jumpcoach.blogspot.ro/2008/12/merry-christmas.html
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Gymnastics is a great sport. I spent a summer training gymnastics athletes awhile back (even learned this cool trick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saN9GvUaiFs ), and I was actually surprised by what I thought was rather poor sprinting and jumping performance. I had figured that their ridiculous strength to bodyweight ratios would have them jumping higher and running faster but I guess it was a lesson in specificity.
That's unfortunate about the jumps coach. Do you live in the USA? The nice thing (for trainees, not athletes!) about track and field is that there really isn't a bunch of money in the sport and as such all but the very elite have to make a living after track... so it's often easy to find a really superb coach in many colleges and track clubs. I do live in one of the best cities in the country for track and field, but I imagine if you live in a major city you might be able to find a track club who either has or could hook you up with a jumps coach. Here in LA I see Mike Powell training athletes twice a week at UCLA. Of course, he charges something 400.00 per session... but it's not much to pay for the best long jumper in the history of the world ( I imagine michael jordan would cost a bit more).
As far as your program... The focus on SL jumping is basically how I would respond if someone about 5'10 or taller came to me and said I need to dunk a basketball as soon as humanely possible. Of course my background is mostly training track athletes who have pretty decent movement efficiency already... but if that WAS the case I would focus almost strictly on single leg jumping and would not have the athlete squatting or gaining weight like Steven recommended.
However if you goals are slightly more long term and general (sounds like they are because you say you want to dunk off two feet) then I would agree more strongly with Stevens recommendation that it's in your best interest to become overall MUCH stronger even if you gain a bit of bodyweight in the process. As far as the template you have written out... You might be a really detail oriented person and able to follow that to a tee (but I sure couldn't and most athletes couldn't...) but I would recommend something much much much simpler which focuses a much more on progress-measurable compound lifts and measurable jumps. Basically I would keep the non measurable stuff to part of the warmup or include it in a circuit toward the end of your training, unless it's specifically intended to bring up an obvious issue.
I don't want to beat up your template too much but I would recommend something like this, develop a measurable jumping/running/track workout where you do dynamic warmup/strides before bounding and bounding before sprinting. For example:
*** Track Workout ***
1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).
- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -
1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)
- Running -
1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)
** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)
**** Weights/Gym Workout ****
1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat. Work up to a challenging but not max single. Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc. This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference: Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more. Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]
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That's really all you need. Try to do the track/bound workout 2x per week and then weights 2x week. If you have more time then you can add another day of weights or add 1-2 more days of track tempo (ie 6-8 x 150 or 200m at 75%) if you need it for fat loss. You can arrange it however you want such as Monday: Track Workout, Tues: Weights, W: Track tempo, R: Track workout (AM), Weights (PM). Friday rest, Sat: Weights (AM) Track Tempo (PM).
The goal for a template like this is for you to make progress. In 8 weeks make you goal to add 10-15 pounds to your powerclean 20-30 to your squat and a couple inches or feet to all your measured jumps.
Sorry to write such a long post, sorta didn't realize how much I would change it till I got started... It's not that your template is that poor, but I just favor an athlete program in the important measurable quantities he needs to improve (and gets to work at these multiple times per week), and use the axillarys to either bring up weakness/rehab or as part of a circuit. You will notice that I actually put double leg jumping after squatting. Surprisingly, standing jumping after squatting can actually help, but single leg jumping and bounding should be done before. I also took things out of your program such as 3x8 hip thrusts once per week and 3x8 BSS once per week. I personally, dont think you can really measure progress doing things like 3x8 BSS once per week. If there is a really necessary reason why you do the hip thrusts (ie you have serious problems with glute activation, then put them back in as part of the warmup or circuit or do them daily for a while).
Good luck!
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strong post is strong. thanks.
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@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?
The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?
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@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?
The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?
two things:
1. i have a 2x bw squat. i squatted 355 at ~172 pounds. admittedly, it's lower now because i've been traveling and unable to train properly.
2. also because i've been traveling, i'm ramping up squatting carefully. hence the very light weight so far in my last few workouts.
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@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?
The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?
two things:
1. i have a 2x bw squat. i squatted 355 at ~172 pounds. admittedly, it's lower now because i've been traveling and unable to train properly.
2. also because i've been traveling, i'm ramping up squatting carefully. hence the very light weight so far in my last few workouts.
I know that you did have a 2 x bw squat and I do not doubt that you will get to that level again soon. But you are currently not in condition to effectively train with weights that correspond with a 355 single, are you? Therefore your current training weights have to be the starting point of the calculation, otherwise it is going to be false.
All I am really saying is that a reasonable approach should be taken to your strength training. And reasonable IMO means to optimize gains in maximal strength first and as long as it has a measurable impact on the performance variable that you want to improve. And "optimize" implies to create conditions, that allow the maximum possible improvement to happen, bar a few reasonable boundary conditions (explosive movements need to be trained; skill training needs to take place; but both should interfere as little as possible).
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true, true. to be fair to myself, i did not say that i was going to launch right into this program. if you look at the OP, my plan is still to ramp up carefully back to where i was, with basic jumps and squats, and then go from there. hell, i'm still gaining back the weight i lost after three weeks of um, well, diarrhea. so we are in complete agreement about what i should do right now. the question is more what's next. you've made your opinion pretty clear, which i appreciate.
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*** Track Workout ***
1) Dynamic Warmup, Leg swings, Fast leg, Skips, Strides
2) 10 Measured overhead backward shot tosses (16lbs, aim to get better at these every workout, do these on a field where you can measure your throw, more than 13 yards is required, getting close to 15 yards is good, close to 17 is very very good).
- Bounding/ Jumping ( choose about 3 of them and also include the running SL vertical jump and REALLY focus on improvement) -
1) 3-6 standing broad jumps
2) 3-6 Depth broad jumps (should go a lot farther on these)
3) 2-3 4 double leg bounds, 8 DL leg bounds (again measure these, hopefully you 4 DL bound is better than 4X standing broad jump)
4) Measured Single leg bounds** (ie LLLL or RRRR)
5) Measured Standing Triple jumps**
6) Running SL vertical jump (3 step, 6 step)
- Running -
1) 3-4 Full effort measured 60m sprints (Hand time will suffice as long as you have a buddy who can provide somewhat repeatable times)
2) Tempo Work (If necessary for fat loss, skip if you do weights following track work)
** Either do these full intensity and try to progress OR if you don't feel like you have the hang of it (ie you go less than 10 yards, or you don't get a full cycle in each leg or can't coordinate the arm swing... Then include them as part of the warmup and drill the form until you have it)
**** Weights/Gym Workout ****
1) Warmup
2) Powerclean or Powersnatch -> work up to a challenging weight for a couple triples
3) Squat. Work up to a challenging but not max single. Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 with 80% of this.
4) Standing Push Press
5) Deadlifts (Optional)
6) Circuit (Here is where you can do RDLs, Calves, Pullups, etc. This stuff is important but your mindset when you come into the gym should be in order of preference: Squat more, Snatch\clean more, push press more/deadlift more. Thinking about much more than this will cause you to lose focus. )
7) Standing vertical jumps/Running vertical jumps [10 each]
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That's really all you need. Try to do the track/bound workout 2x per week and then weights 2x week. If you have more time then you can add another day of weights or add 1-2 more days of track tempo (ie 6-8 x 150 or 200m at 75%) if you need it for fat loss. You can arrange it however you want such as Monday: Track Workout, Tues: Weights, W: Track tempo, R: Track workout (AM), Weights (PM). Friday rest, Sat: Weights (AM) Track Tempo (PM).
The goal for a template like this is for you to make progress. In 8 weeks make you goal to add 10-15 pounds to your powerclean 20-30 to your squat and a couple inches or feet to all your measured jumps.
That looks like a great program. I might steal it after I've gotten sick of mine! It looks like a lot of volume for someone not experienced in track work though (note: I am not calling LBSS a novice :)).
I'm wondering though why you don't think things like hip thrusts and BSS are important? I have added BSS and have increased weight every week (I was very weak in this to start). I can't see how that isn't measured progress. Especially since LBSS is a DL jumper; also Joel Smith has talked about how good hip thrusts can be (http://justflyperformance.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/real-world-validation-of-hip-thrusts.html). You'd know better than me of course, I just interested for my own training.
@LBSS I definitely have to second what Raptor said on two things:
- Recovery is definitely important for getting in jumps sessions. For me, I think doing the ON-ON-OFF three week cycle has helped me manage the fatigue that Raptor was talking about which stops you jumping at a high intensity level.
- I'd do Joel Smith's 1-legged jump program first before you decide to do Todday's program (which again I think looks great for you).
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Good questions.
@T0dday: I am curious about your thoughts on two things you said.
One is that you would have most athletes (5'10 and taller) perform single leg jumps if the goal was to have them dunk ASAP. This is interesting to me because I believe that this is in contrast to what most would think to be the best method. I do not know, because as a volleyball player I have never performed single leg jumps, but I cannot see the reason why it should be easier to increase the single leg jump compared to double leg jump. Could you elaborate on this?
Sure. As you well know as a volleyball player, both jumps require a good deal of skill, (ie. someone who doesn't jump at all can initially increase their leap very quickly with practice). However, because of the greater approach speed involved in the single leg running jump, most athletes are essentially "least" skilled in this jump. I find if you instruct most non-jumpers (eg. not triple/high/long jumpers) to attempt a maximal long jump, they won't benefit much (if any) from an approach longer than about 5-6 steps, which suggests a lot of room for improvement if they learn to convert a greater amount of their sprint speed into the jump. Of course, this is the horizontal long jump (where takeoff velocities are higher) AND I train primarily with sprinters (who reach much faster speeds as approach length increases than non-sprinters).... but I still believe most decent athletes are underperforming relative to their strength/speed more in the single leg jump than the double leg jump.
Essentially, I think the athlete in question LBSS will have difficulty at this point increasing his takeoff velocity in his double leg jump without getting stronger. While you provide excellent advice on how to get him stronger, the timeline is just not as immediate, he has to get stronger over multiple months, possibly gain a bit of weight, then learn how to express that strength in the double leg jump, etc. The beauty of the single leg jump is most athletes have a large surplus of horizontal velocity in our approach; converting slightly more of it into a running single leg jump can provide a decent increase to a running vertical over a very quick time period. The caveat being that this certainly won't continue to work (to the degree that increasing strength increases DLJ) as he get's more efficient at taking off at higher speeds. Additionally, if he is a seriously basketballer, it might be a little peculiar looking if his dunks require an approach of close to the entire the length of the court and a perfectly timed bounce of the basketball to provide him a dunk.... However, he ONLY asked to dunk, and if he's quite close (within a couple inches) and he's under a time crunch... I think the single leg jump is the best way to get their quickly.
The other thing is me wondering why you gave such a low recommendation for squat progress in the program you posted (30 lbs per 8 weeks). I said earlier that anything less than 100 lbs squat increase in 6 months would be "fooling around". Obviously this depends on level of training advancement quite a bit, but I stand by that in the case of a young, healthy, athletic and underweight person with less than a 2x bw squat. I tend to think that the 100 lbs is in fact a conservative number of what is possible to achieve in that time frame for a novice of said characteristics. In the given case, LBSS squatted 245 lbs x 3 x 8 as his last work-out. I say he could squat 380 lbs x 5, if not more, in half a year if he eats properly. Do you disagree?
As far as your 100 pound estimate, I agree, but I would add that it's hard in general to put an exact number on it as it depends on a lot of factors such as the squat style (ie high-bar/low-bar) and the build/strength-capacity of the athlete (ie a 6-7 skinny 220 pound athlete squatting 400 will have a harder time reaching 500 than a shorter athlete might have adding 100 pounds), but I would actually argue that this estimation is pretty similar to mine! I came up with my number from the argument that an athlete with the characteristics you describe should be able to add approximately 5 pounds most weeks if they have proper nutrition and recovery (8x5 = 40, [ 30 to be safe ]). So 30 pounds per 8 weeks after 26 weeks ( 6 months ) would come out to about 100 pounds, or your conservative estimate.
As far as LBSS in general, 380x5 in 6-months sounds doable but I don't know if I would would use it as a low-end goal for him. Especially because he is not a professional athlete (real world responsibilities tend to slow us down from goals which assume 6-months of really consistent training, he has already mentioned he has to travel often to far parts of the globe for work). Additionally, I think rep weight goals are also more difficult to predict that heavy singles. Assuming 245x8 equates to a training max of 315 then I think 405x1 is a reasonable training max for him to shoot for over your 6 month period, provided consistent training and good nutrition.
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That looks like a great program. I might steal it after I've gotten sick of mine! It looks like a lot of volume for someone not experienced in track work though (note: I am not calling LBSS a novice :)).
Thanks a lot. Don't forget that the program advises you only to do 3-4 of the bounding sessions. The program is actually adopted from an offseason workout for sprinters! All the running except the 60m sprints should extensive tempo and should actually function primarily as recovery (although it might take a bit of getting used to if you don't have any track background).
I'm wondering though why you don't think things like hip thrusts and BSS are important? I have added BSS and have increased weight every week (I was very weak in this to start). I can't see how that isn't measured progress. Especially since LBSS is a DL jumper; also Joel Smith has talked about how good hip thrusts can be (http://justflyperformance.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/real-world-validation-of-hip-thrusts.html). You'd know better than me of course, I just interested for my own training.
It's not that I don't think hip thrusts, BSS, etc. have a place in training. And it's not that it's completely unmeasurable, but it's just simply less measurable. For example what's your max hip thrust and your max BSS? After doing that max hip-thrust, dont you always feel like you could do one more? I think one point that Steven-Miller does an EXCELLENT job hammering home is that all athletes (especially those who train alone or outside of a structured college-level program) should spend more time working on the most measurable strength increases.
I read over the link you posted and while I am a bit skeptical of some of the gains (slashing a second off multiple 200m college sprinters 200m times is the difference between an average an all-american athlete), the article actually supports my point that hip thrusts do not have the same place in part of a training program as squats.
Hip thrusts are primarily a glute-activation exercise. As the article states, an athlete with poor glute activation can make incredible gains by adding hip thrusts to their program. This gain doesn't necessarily come from adding X amount of pounds to the hip thrust but simply by adding them to the program and increasing weight to keep difficulty moderate. By contrast squats are an overall strength exercise... Adding weight to your squat will pay dividends. Also remember that I include backward overhead shot throws in my training program. These are an EXCELLENT overall strength exercise requires glute and hip activation and provide a very measurable test of ability.
Basically, my recommendation is that you structure your training by focusing primarily on the measurable quantity you are tested on (ie. your 100m sprint if you are a sprinter, long jump, or your vertical jump, etc.).
After that your focus should be on your long term measurable tests of explosive strength (bounding, shot throws, power snatch/clean) and tests of maximal strength (squat variations, deadlift, push press, etc.). You have to approach these lifts with the approach to get stronger and stronger as time passes. Then your assistance movements and specific mobility work should come when needed, but the mindset required to approach these lifts cannot and should not be the same. These might provide actually provide greater bang for your buck (ie 8 weeks of hip thrusts might help more than 8 weeks of squat in the short term, but in the long term the advantage will not be as great). It's not that I think calf raises, hip thrusts, BSS, lunges, etc. are useless... It's just that they should occupy a different mindset as far as programming them into your training and performing them as part of training.
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Yeah I completely agree. Plus the squats target many more muscles so... there ya have it.
However I did hip thrusts in the past and they were pretty good, I'm jumping higher now despite barely squatting 120x3 yesterday so... there has to be something (I also do kettlebell swings which are basically "power" hip thrusts)
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@T0ddday: I just realized that I always wrote your user-name wrong, lol, sorry for that.
Thank you for your detailed response. After reading about your thoughts I think we do not differ that much in many points. Because of lack of experience I cannot assess your idea with the single-leg jump. I agree with your argument, that most athletes will be least experienced and proficient in this jump technique. But I am not sure whether this could not be a dead end for many because less max strength can be utilized in the single-leg jump. However, I would be very interested to see how well this works. I hope LBSS will make it happen.
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The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?
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The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?
The old standby is speed reserve. Basically, that the more speed you have... the faster you can run under control. But, really their is more than one way to skin a cat. All triple jumpers are elastic, but you within the population of triple jumpers you def see those whose strategy is to maintain speed and those whose strategy is to sacrifice speed for a more forceful upward impulse. Here is a quick high-speed camera analysis... it's about long jumping rather than vertical, but it's a good lesson to realize that two of the greatest in the world do things in a very very different fashion:
http://www.arielnet.com/cloud/Publications/Show/adi-pub-01140/long-jump-technique-power-or-speed
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It's not that I don't think hip thrusts, BSS, etc. have a place in training. And it's not that it's completely unmeasurable, but it's just simply less measurable. For example what's your max hip thrust and your max BSS? After doing that max hip-thrust, dont you always feel like you could do one more? I think one point that Steven-Miller does an EXCELLENT job hammering home is that all athletes (especially those who train alone or outside of a structured college-level program) should spend more time working on the most measurable strength increases.
I read over the link you posted and while I am a bit skeptical of some of the gains (slashing a second off multiple 200m college sprinters 200m times is the difference between an average an all-american athlete), the article actually supports my point that hip thrusts do not have the same place in part of a training program as squats.
Hip thrusts are primarily a glute-activation exercise. As the article states, an athlete with poor glute activation can make incredible gains by adding hip thrusts to their program. This gain doesn't necessarily come from adding X amount of pounds to the hip thrust but simply by adding them to the program and increasing weight to keep difficulty moderate. By contrast squats are an overall strength exercise... Adding weight to your squat will pay dividends. Also remember that I include backward overhead shot throws in my training program. These are an EXCELLENT overall strength exercise requires glute and hip activation and provide a very measurable test of ability.
Basically, my recommendation is that you structure your training by focusing primarily on the measurable quantity you are tested on (ie. your 100m sprint if you are a sprinter, long jump, or your vertical jump, etc.).
After that your focus should be on your long term measurable tests of explosive strength (bounding, shot throws, power snatch/clean) and tests of maximal strength (squat variations, deadlift, push press, etc.). You have to approach these lifts with the approach to get stronger and stronger as time passes. Then your assistance movements and specific mobility work should come when needed, but the mindset required to approach these lifts cannot and should not be the same. These might provide actually provide greater bang for your buck (ie 8 weeks of hip thrusts might help more than 8 weeks of squat in the short term, but in the long term the advantage will not be as great). It's not that I think calf raises, hip thrusts, BSS, lunges, etc. are useless... It's just that they should occupy a different mindset as far as programming them into your training and performing them as part of training.
Sure, that all makes sense. I was more meaning that for LBSS specifically (after his initial strength rebuilding), he might benefit from doing them as they might give him some extra power he might have been missing. If he was starting from absolute zero, then of course he should focus on the more measurable compound lifts primarily. But given he wants to dunk ASAP and he has a decent vert already, then perhaps it wouldn't hurt him to not exclude them completely though (and yes, the overhead shot tosses will help in that regard). But yeah I agree on what you're saying.
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In my opinion the way you increase your maximum controllable speed is:
1) Try to jump faster every time
2) Doing high tension consecutive jumps (depth jumps, single leg bounds) so that you get accostumed to that level of overload that your jump leg will have to take in and control in the plant.
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some three step SLRVJ below, so you can get a sense of just how bad my SLRVJ are. interestingly, i used to be infinitely better off my right leg, but now the difference is pretty small. credit that to practicing layups over the past few months. so yes, practice improves things. (T0ddday: i'm not a basketball player so i couldn't care less about dunking in a game.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SnN3hb6KoM
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The question is - how can you increase the maximum controllable speed in the one-leg jump?
The old standby is speed reserve. Basically, that the more speed you have... the faster you can run under control. But, really their is more than one way to skin a cat. All triple jumpers are elastic, but you within the population of triple jumpers you def see those whose strategy is to maintain speed and those whose strategy is to sacrifice speed for a more forceful upward impulse. Here is a quick high-speed camera analysis... it's about long jumping rather than vertical, but it's a good lesson to realize that two of the greatest in the world do things in a very very different fashion:
http://www.arielnet.com/cloud/Publications/Show/adi-pub-01140/long-jump-technique-power-or-speed
It probably has a lot to do with your training background as well. Back when I wasn't strength training at all (and weighed 67 kg) I used to jump at a constant speed with a long approach. Now, at 82 kg and with a strength training background, I use a short approach and an acceleration jump (not at a constant speed).
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Bumping thread because circumstances have changed. My gym closes for good on Friday and so for at least the next month or two I won't have regular access to a basketball rim. Don't think I'll even have space to sprint or do running jumps of any kind.
So, I'm thinking I should do what steven-miller and KF told me to do long ago, which is suck it up and squat a whole lot, with light plyos for movement efficiency and SVJ/light jump squats for power. And eat a lot. The one thing the new gym has that my current one doesn't is a jump mat, so I'll have a reliable way to track SVJ (and multi-jumps, for that matter). Main goals would be: squat 405, SVJ 32. Bodyweight whatever, but presumably >10 pounds heavier than now, mid-180s. Then lose weight while maintaining as much strength as possible.
Workouts something like this:
- warm up
- light plyos x 2-3 exercises (MR half tuck, pogos, line hops, hurdle jumps, short sprints or bounds if possible, etc.)
- SVJ x 8-10 total reps OR jump squat 2 x 3 x 25-30%
- Smolov Base Mesocycle day X
- OHP 2 x 8
- weighted chin ups 2 x 8
- core
- stretch
Thoughts? It might be good for me to have to take my focus away from the court for a bit and focus on strength and power. My current block has gotten me nowhere fast, as far as I can tell. And honestly, I'm a little discouraged by my lack of progress since August. It would be nice to switch to something linear for a while and get my confidence back.
Of course, I will continue to pursue the possibility of using the old gym's court on my own terms with the church.
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Why don't you do something similar to what I'm doing - conjugate periodization?
For your particular case you could work more on your lower leg with plyos and stuff, work with rhythmic jump squats while maintaining your squat (or trying to increase it, but not being the main focus).
I mean you've trained so much strength-wise... you can't lose too much if you give this a shot, especially if you care about your maximal jump which will most likely be a running jump.
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I guess you have to ask yourself: how much of a factor is squatting strength in your jump? I guess DL is more reliant on quadriceps strength, but hams, glutes and calves are all important in producing some force as well as your stabilising muscles for the transfer of speed --> plant. Maybe you need to do more assistance exercises for those parts. Do you do (R/SL)DLs, weighted calf raises or BSS? Maybe you could throw them in.
Also, will squatting heavily and gaining weight really push you towards your goal faster IF your goal is to dunk on a 10' rim and 7'6'' reach? With all due respect to KF and steven-miller (not that he's around any more), I think your strength levels are good, and given that (as I said a few weeks ago), there is such a discrepancy between your boss squat numbers and your SVJ, there is still a lot of potential to be tapped into, and that extends to your running as well (as I said a few weeks ago, if you could improve your explosiveness to the point where your squat/SVJ makes sense, then your running jumps would have to benefit as well).
Don't blur the line between strength numbers and jump height too much, unless you're just intending to SVJ dunk. Then it's very important. I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that the running jump is more dependent on speed utilisation and stability in the plant phase than raw strength. In an ideal world (I know you prob can't do this atm) you could maybe utilise more track work, and more pure jumps sessions just focusing on training your body in the motion of the DLRVJ. I know you did do a lot of DLRVJ practice in the past, but it was always within a mixed workout. Maybe that prevents you from truly giving a max effort jump. I think that's key to making progress, actually getting to your max jump once every 2-3 weeks in a periodisation setup.
Given all that, if you really can't access the proper facilities to do track work and jumps at 10' ring, then squatting + eating hard could be the way to go. I'd consider Raptor's setup though, or just a set-up where the focus is to increase your explosiveness so that your SVJ is around 35'' without too much of a BW change. Something like:
Day 1: Quad/calves - whatever you want to do to strengthen these - squats, calf raises etc. Maybe work up to heavy 1x6 (not too much volume but good for strength work).
One really good day of rest
Day 2: P-chain work - BSSs (for glutes), RDLs, maybe lunges.
Another really good day of rest
Day 3: Explosive work: Light pogos/tucks/depth jumps, then loaded rhythmic jump squats, KB swings (these are badass). Shouldn't fatigue you too much. Get a shitload of rest this night, and eat well.
Day 4: Good warmup, then 10-15 SVJs, record each one, stop when you're dropping off.
Rest, then start again. Keep doing this until your SVJ plateaus, then maybe look to start a block of RVJ/speed work (if possible). I have NO idea if this is an optimal set-up, I'm sure others would change the order or whatever. But something along those lines where your explosiveness/SVJ is the main objective in the short-term rather than packing on more mass/strength.
Sorry for the long post, just got rolling a bit :P.
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I agree with acole , you always neglect p-chain if i am not wrong. Put some RDL/BSS somwehere in there and stick with them , progress until pchain is strong.
Edit: I also agree with raptor on the other thread , you also neglect calves.
About plyos, i really like this kellyb article:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/plyomyths.html
Myth #2 - Plyometric action is a highly trainable quality =======================================================
How much additional force you get from a "plyometric" movement is mostly genetic and unique to you as an individual. True plyometric ability isn't something you can really impact through training to a large extent. In fact, it's likely to get less as you grow as an athlete even as you progress as an athlete. HUH!? Before everybody goes off the deep end with that statement let me explain:
Let's say your standing stationary vertical jump is currently 20 inches and your 3 step countermovement vert is 26 inches
That basically means you're getting 6 additional inches from plyometric action.
What I'm saying is you're unlikely to ever see that difference grow much. It can (and usually does) get smaller, but it rarely grows much, even as your overall performance gets better. The general trend in any developing athlete is to get more proficient at exerting force under smaller windows of opportunity so he finds over time he doesn't need as much wind-up to generate the same amount of power. This is even true for people like high jumpers, who seek to benefit as much as possible from plyometric action.
In sticking with this same hypothetical example, lets say you improve your stationary jump from 20 up to 35 inches. You're still unlikely to find more than a 6 inch difference in your running countermovement jump (41 inches), regardless of what type of training you did to get there. Generally speaking, the longer your limbs and legs (particularly lower legs), the greater you'll benefit from plyometric wind-up. The shorter your legs, the more likely you are to jump just as high or move just as well from a virtual standstill.
Plyos are good and all but i wouldn't use them more than what you typed, low-impact for mobility/efficiency maintenance and injury avoidance.
Even jsut SVJs could be enough but a few extra movements won't hurt for sure.
So yes , i am with KF & steven miller:
Go nuts on squat >>> achieve mid-30's SVJ >>> enjoy bonus effect of high-30's RVJ (dunking).
If i were you i would do just what you typed with some pchain progression and calves work in there too.
Just my 2 cents.
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haha, vag, contradicted yourself a little bit there. you're with acole, and also with kf/steven-miller?
you guys are all right, though, i do neglect supplemental p-chain work for my lower body. so i think maybe it's time to turn that into a focus for a while. smolov doesn't really work with other leg stuff, volume is super high as it is. so that's probably not the right move now. i don't want to cut back on squatting frequency as much as acole suggested, though. here's my compromise (warm ups will include glute activation, light plyos and jumping rope):
day 1
- warm up
- SVJ x 10-15, go for PR's
- squat x5
- hip thrust 3 x 10-15
- calf raise 3 x 20-30
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch
day 2
- warm up
- SVJ x 5-10
- MSEM squat x 6-10
- RDL 3x8-10
- BSS 3x8-10e
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch
day 3
- warm up
- SVJ x 5-10
- depth jump 3 x 4
- KB swing 3 x 10-15
- OHP 2x8
- chin up 2x8
- core
- stretch
day 4
- warm up
- SVJ x 10-15, go for PR's
- bench 3x8-10
- row 3x8-10
- core
- stretch
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I meant that i agree with acole regarding p-chain, not the whole post. Not that it matters anyway...
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I meant that i agree with acole regarding p-chain, not the whole post. Not that it matters anyway...
Are you kidding? Your wish is his command.
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LOL , nice try raptor!
Does not matter anyway = my programming advice was clear so i didn't want to spam the topic anymore talking about if i was contradictive or not. Which i am doing now... i'm out! 8)