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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: ruso15 on March 04, 2012, 04:51:58 pm
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So my front squat is around 140 kgs (308 lb), my snatch is 62 kilograms(135lb), but my standing vertical is 28 inches.
acording to coolcolj's calculator my strengh doesnt correlates with my jump
So whats wrong? what can i do?
Does everybody's numbers correlates with coolcolj's calculator predictions?
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Have you been practicing your jumps?
could you post a video of some of your jumps?
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ccj's calculator is not that accurate. It just gives you a general area where your VJ should be.
Every individual is different , your body leverages , bodyfat % , coordination and jumping efficiency are not included in that calculator.
Here's what kellyb says about it:
The basic idea is that for a given squat and bodyweight you SHOULD be able to jump a given height AS LONG AS your movement efficiency in the jump is up to par. If your current squat gives you a vertical jump forecast that is above your actual current jump height you know you need to work on transferring your squat strength into jump explosiveness better, thus you need more actual jump training and perhaps more explosive oriented training. If your VJ is even, or above, the forecasted VJ, you know your jumping efficiency is good, you're transferring your strength into explosiveness well, and should continue driving up your squat.
Note: The calculator works best if you're between 5'6 and 6'0 tall. Shorter folks tend to require slightly heavier squats for a given VJ and taller folks tend to require slightly less.
This calculator is not any scientific miracle , the formula is VJ = 16,75*( squat/bodyweight ). I don't know if that 16,75 is a ratio that worked accurately for ccj or if it is an average of some kind of study.
What i do know is that if you have a detailed log , go back to your data, see what VJ you had for each squat/bw ratio at times and find your own ratio so you can have your own personal calculator.
pc
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Have you been practicing your jumps?
this is the most important thing. i squat over 2xbw but my standing vertical is hilariously bad because i literally never practice it.
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So my front squat is around 140 kgs (308 lb), my snatch is 62 kilograms(135lb), but my standing vertical is 28 inches.
acording to coolcolj's calculator my strengh doesnt correlates with my jump
So whats wrong? what can i do?
Does everybody's numbers correlates with coolcolj's calculator predictions?
One cannot meaningfully or otherwise determine a correlation between two characteristics of one person with only a single measurement of those characteristics. In order to determine whether a correlation exists or not one would have to compare multiple, varying data points of each characteristic.
Your snatch seems rather low for that front squat. How long have you been training it?
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i havent trained my snatch pretty much. i prefer the jump squat right now im working with paused jump squats and depth jumps from 20 incn box.
i should also add my achilles injury, but after surgery im totally recovered from that, only thing is my right calf its a litle bit weaker.
maybe thats the problem lack of calf strength.
i will upload videos of my jump soon...
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i havent trained my snatch pretty much. i prefer the jump squat right now im working with paused jump squats and depth jumps from 20 incn box.
If what you prefer isnt working for you, try doing what you dont prefer.
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all right then i should add a video of my snatch so i can get some technicall asistance
couse my jump has been like this with a weaker squat there must be something i should do to get a few inches without increasing strength
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also add a video of some jumps!
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all right then i should add a video of my snatch so i can get some technicall asistance
couse my jump has been like this with a weaker squat there must be something i should do to get a few inches without increasing strength
Yes, good idea on the video. The thing with using the power snatch is that it will help get more HIP extension into the jumping movement, the jump squats dont do this. That could be something lacking or it might not be, but it definitely wont hurt to try it and see.
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(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_va_RDQhQ7A8/Su2SkF2eboI/AAAAAAAAAIA/KKl3Y9cL4gA/s400/20_01.JPG)
You are too far to the right. (edit: you are the heavy resistance trained line). Jump squats <50%, cleans, and depth jumps/pogos/broadjumps for 3 weeks. Deload for 1wk if necessary. Full ROM deep jump squats with 60-80% to maintain strength in all ROM, box squats, and continued depth jumps for another 3 weeks after a deload. You'll go up a few inches.
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I disagree with the analysis above. A few points:
1)While indeed an individual with lower limit strength may jump higher because of exactly what is shown ( the explosive trained one is stronger at the 0.2 seconds that a VJ takes place ) , we do NOT know ruso's curve.
2)This figure it evidently ( and imo deliberately ) wrong because the heavy resistance trained person's limit strength is ~20% bigger than the untrained one's and ~10% bigger than the explosive trained. Redraw the heavy resistance trained curve so that the peak strength is 2-3 times higher than the untrained force and put the explosive trained curve somewhere in the middle. Even at 0.2seconds the heavy resistance trained force will be higher than both others.
3)I hate that myth/obsession with ballistic training. Heavy resistance training is always made look like it's all about squatting power-lifting style with 8 seconds grinders, that is not the case. The truth is that lifting heavy for low reps while maintaining jumping efficiency will never fail. I don't bash explosive work , i implement it too , but it's just a helping tool , not the solution.
4) kingfish!!!
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This^^^
And
5) Raptor :-X
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You are too far to the right. (edit: you are the heavy resistance trained line). Jump squats <50%, cleans, and depth jumps/pogos/broadjumps for 3 weeks. Deload for 1wk if necessary. Full ROM deep jump squats with 60-80% to maintain strength in all ROM, box squats, and continued depth jumps for another 3 weeks after a deload. You'll go up a few inches.
asstarded, do not do this.
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Yeah, use 1RM for jump squats. :highfive:
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You are too far to the right. (edit: you are the heavy resistance trained line). Jump squats <50%, cleans, and depth jumps/pogos/broadjumps for 3 weeks. Deload for 1wk if necessary. Full ROM deep jump squats with 60-80% to maintain strength in all ROM, box squats, and continued depth jumps for another 3 weeks after a deload. You'll go up a few inches.
asstarded, do not do this.
LOL i thought nothing was wrong... til i realized he was talking about jump squats
also,
atg jump squats :ninja:
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Barbell Avishek drops - you drop from 40 inches with a 1RM loaded barbell on your back, go full (none of this sissy "quick jumping" depth jumps - go full OR ELSE) and jump up. It really loads up the legs nicely.
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Barbell Avishek drops - you drop from 40 inches with a 1RM loaded barbell on your back, go full (none of this sissy "quick jumping" depth jumps - go full OR ELSE) and jump up. It really loads up the legs nicely.
Dude why the fuck do you make so many of these pointless empty posts. You're not funny and think you're smarter than most of the people on this forum. You know everything about training for jumping, have 5000 posts, yet cant dunk a regulation hoop with a normal sized ball. I'd bet 100 dollars you've never been laid in your pathetic life.
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Can't dunk on ten feet?
;)
No need to get laid, I have plenty of porn. Heck, it never says no to my double clicking.
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So you can dunk now? Can you post the link? Props if this is true, but still, you make countless unneeded posts that make it seem like you have no life other than on internet forums
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You are too far to the right. (edit: you are the heavy resistance trained line). Jump squats <50%, cleans, and depth jumps/pogos/broadjumps for 3 weeks. Deload for 1wk if necessary. Full ROM deep jump squats with 60-80% to maintain strength in all ROM, box squats, and continued depth jumps for another 3 weeks after a deload. You'll go up a few inches.
asstarded, do not do this.
One can only recommend such silliness if one has never squatted with heavy weights which means that 80% means sub 100 kg. Pathetic.
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I disagree with the analysis above. A few points:
1)While indeed an individual with lower limit strength may jump higher because of exactly what is shown ( the explosive trained one is stronger at the 0.2 seconds that a VJ takes place ) , we do NOT know ruso's curve.
2)This figure it evidently ( and imo deliberately ) wrong because the heavy resistance trained person's limit strength is ~20% bigger than the untrained one's and ~10% bigger than the explosive trained. Redraw the heavy resistance trained curve so that the peak strength is 2-3 times higher than the untrained force and put the explosive trained curve somewhere in the middle. Even at 0.2seconds the heavy resistance trained force will be higher than both others.
3)I hate that myth/obsession with ballistic training. Heavy resistance training is always made look like it's all about squatting power-lifting style with 8 seconds grinders, that is not the case. The truth is that lifting heavy for low reps while maintaining jumping efficiency will never fail. I don't bash explosive work , i implement it too , but it's just a helping tool , not the solution.
4) kingfish!!!
Yes. Explosive heavy squats + jumps is the simplest and most effective training for the standing jump... that and a solid diet... u cant really mess that up.
just remember that on the full squat.. you explode with all you got at the beginning of the concentric.. and let that momentum carry you to the lockout.. if u hand to grind.. you're using too much weight.. if you're sub 2BW.. you need to eat more cows.
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you need to eat more cows.
Unless:
1) You live in India
2) You hate cow meat
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Yes. Explosive heavy squats + jumps is the simplest and most effective training for the standing jump... that and a solid diet... u cant really mess that up.
just remember that on the full squat.. you explode with all you got at the beginning of the concentric.. and let that momentum carry you to the lockout.. if u hand to grind.. you're using too much weight.. if you're sub 2BW.. you need to eat more cows.
you think training with doubles or triples on the front squat would do the trick?
couse my back squat kinda sucks, i cant go on full rom
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also i have always trained with full front squats and i feel they go hard on my glutes as well as my quads.
dont feel much ham activity do
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also i have always trained with full front squats and i feel they go hard on my glutes as well as my quads.
dont feel much ham activity do
should supplement that with some RDL's. I've neglected my hams for years and now I'm hit with tendonitis. Sucks not jumping for over a month.
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you think training with doubles or triples on the front squat would do the trick?
couse my back squat kinda sucks, i cant go on full rom
no. front squats taxes the upperbody too much to make it an efficient leg mass builder IMO. your torso stabilizing muscles will be giving out way before you even get your legs some decent resistance.
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I disagree with the analysis above. A few points:
2)This figure it evidently ( and imo deliberately ) wrong because the heavy resistance trained person's limit strength is ~20% bigger than the untrained one's and ~10% bigger than the explosive trained. Redraw the heavy resistance trained curve so that the peak strength is 2-3 times higher than the untrained force and put the explosive trained curve somewhere in the middle. Even at 0.2seconds the heavy resistance trained force will be higher than both others.
4) kingfish!!!
Can you elaborate on point two? It sounds to me like you're trying to move the heavy resistance training curve to the left. This is exactly what some jumps/ballistic training will do; they shift the heavy resistance trained athlete to an "explosive-ballistic trained" athlete, with the newfound ability to produce more force in smaller time frames.
I won't say any names here but there are so many examples of individuals who lift heavy, yet cannot produce force quickly, i.e. many strong people, who are slow and don't jump high at all, and don't see improvements despite getting stronger. All I recommended were some exercises that shift the curve to the left, which Kingfish also recommended, and pretty much everyone else who provided training advice.
About kingfish, is there any evidence that he is producing more relative power than ballistically-trained individuals in 0.2s? All the videos I've seen are standing vertical jumps, which are very impressive, but also much longer in duration than 0.2s. So I'm afraid, kingfish is not your answer to this problem. Kingfish only provides us clues about SVJ, but not other measures of power. His curve therefore will look similar to the heavy strength trained athlete's. I'd be interested in seeing Kingfish drop the daily squats, and focus on some deep jump squats suing 2-3 plates.
About heavy deep squat jumps, it's really not that hard. And I recommend it as a transition into real ballistic training, since jumping straight into cleans and jump squats and sprints is very awkward when your RFD is far to the right and your CNS is used to slower movements. It's very good. The nay sayers don't really have any half-witted rationale for their arguments against deep jump squats. It's very good.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTFt6TAUXPk
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AbumKKN59Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g25_xqnHNLg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxzOvfuUNP8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1O7gsFvhQk
So i think that with this and some other data i will start my log
Thanks for the feedback!!!, i invite you to go retarded overanalasing my videos hehe
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Also, Ruso15, not sure if u posted it already, but could you list:
height
weight
age
reach (not wingspan)
max squat
max dead
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Can you elaborate on point two? It sounds to me like you're trying to move the heavy resistance training curve to the left. This is exactly what some jumps/ballistic training will do; they shift the heavy resistance trained athlete to an "explosive-ballistic trained" athlete, with the newfound ability to produce more force in smaller time frames.
I am not trying to shift the heavy resistance to the left , i am trying to shift it UPWARDS. What you've shown is a figure of 2 people with 20% difference in 1RM , it should be 100% or 200%. If you don't get what i mean , back to maths 101 or don't post mathematical figures again.
I won't say any names here but there are so many examples of individuals who lift heavy, yet cannot produce force quickly, i.e. many strong people, who are slow and don't jump high at all, and don't see improvements despite getting stronger. All I recommended were some exercises that shift the curve to the left, which Kingfish also recommended, and pretty much everyone else who provided training advice.
Say names. Who is strong and injury-free but can't jump? Everyone in here trains pushing 1RM and everyone PRs in jumps , all the time.
About kingfish, is there any evidence that he is producing more relative power than ballistically-trained individuals in 0.2s? All the videos I've seen are standing vertical jumps, which are very impressive, but also much longer in duration than 0.2s. So I'm afraid, kingfish is not your answer to this problem. Kingfish only provides us clues about SVJ, but not other measures of power. His curve therefore will look similar to the heavy strength trained athlete's. I'd be interested in seeing Kingfish drop the daily squats, and focus on some deep jump squats suing 2-3 plates.
LMAO , you can't be that retarded and believe any word of that shit-tastic paragraph. Come on , admit it , you're just trolling me and i fell for it!
About heavy deep squat jumps, it's really not that hard. And I recommend it as a transition into real ballistic training, since jumping straight into cleans and jump squats and sprints is very awkward when your RFD is far to the right and your CNS is used to slower movements. It's very good. The nay sayers don't really have any half-witted rationale for their arguments against deep jump squats. It's very good.
LOL , see previous paragraph reply.
PS:
I don't have anything personal with you. I respect your training and dedication and i wish all you do works for you.
You act like a training guru that discovered all the super secret gimmicks to xplosive vertz inchez , i am fine with that too , it's even funny.
But when you come out prescribing programs and advising people that just came here for help and may fall for your shit , that's outrageous and even dangerous. STOP IT!!!
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Age 22
Reach 230cm (7 feet 6.5 inches) on shoes
Heigth 178 (5 feet 10 inches)
Weight 76-77 (167-170lbs) somethimes 165
Max front squat 310 only lift i have maxed at the moment
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You should use a much wider grip on the barbell when doing snatches. As wide as needed for the bar to sit in the hip crease when standing up.
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@ruso: You should definitely squat, especially when you are bad at it. Front-squats are not an adequate substitute since a lot of muscle mass is just left out with it. The weakness of that muscle mass is demonstrated by your poor squat performance. I am at the same spot you are at with my deadlift. I have a weak lower back and it prevents me from improving because I always prioritized the movement I was best at (squat). Sooner or later this costs you a lot of training time to correct that. So better start now.
You could work quite a bit on your hang-snatch technique as well (a snatch or powersnatch starts on the floor). You can certainly perform it as you are and benefit, but you might hit a wall sooner than necessary. I recommend you to start with that video: http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/the_power_snatch. Work yourself up to at least 30 kilos more than you are doing now and I assume that this would help your jumping quite [edit]a bit [/edit].
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Can you elaborate on point two? It sounds to me like you're trying to move the heavy resistance training curve to the left. This is exactly what some jumps/ballistic training will do; they shift the heavy resistance trained athlete to an "explosive-ballistic trained" athlete, with the newfound ability to produce more force in smaller time frames.
I am not trying to shift the heavy resistance to the left , i am trying to shift it UPWARDS. What you've shown is a figure of 2 people with 20% difference in 1RM , it should be 100% or 200%. If you don't get what i mean , back to maths 101 or don't post mathematical figures again.
You're trying to shift the whole line upwards? Ok that is one strategy. Also there is not a 20% difference in 1RM. Unless you measured it with a ruler and calculated the exact difference you are pulling that out of your ass.
What I am suggesting is shifting the area under the curve around 0.1-0.2seconds (or whatever time frame is defined as being "quick") upward. But not the whole thing. Your strategy can work too, but I don't see any objection to to what i'm saying. Since that is most common and what is most recommended and is probably a better way because you can't just hope to see the whole curve just go up. Yeha being strong is fun, but when it's time for competition, you may be better off going on an explosive phase.
Also from explosive training, you may decrease your 1RM in the short term, but since the 1RM does not take place in the time frame of interest (0.2s for instance), it is irrelevant (ok i'll state it less storngly so you don't think I think I'm a guru.. it MAY BE IRRELEVANT).
This is what I base my suggestions off of. Therefore, you can transiently decrease your 1RM but jump higher, by increasing force production in the desired time frame. But yeah this is what I think, and I don't have 100 case studies to back it up. Maybe one day I will.
However all of this is based on training theory so it is practical and makes sense. Zatsiorsky for instance, and the graph I presented.
In the past month, my squat 1RM decreased by around 40lbs from going on a bounding/explosive phase (I did 265 below parallel, but probbaly cannot do 225 now). However my 10/20m sprints, bounds, and vertical jump, and broad jump have all seen PRs.
My box squat has decreased too. I would however need to perform more rigorous research and testing for conclusive results.
My deads are weaker (sorta.. not that much). Front squat is weaker, but was way stronger too just 3 weeks ago when I did 225x3x2.
Say names. Who is strong and injury-free but can't jump? Everyone in here trains pushing 1RM and everyone PRs in jumps , all the time.
The author of this post. But no other names, not necessary not going there. This is of course my sense from reading journals. But if you reallllly want, let's look at all the active journals, all the people pursuing strength, and look at the number of PRs IN MEASURE OF SPEED UNDER 0.3S, or any other criteria, or all criteria, such as measures of speed between 0.05-0.15s - sprinting, 0.15-0.25s - depth jumps 0.25-0.4 - SVJs in the time frame in which they have been pursuing strength? Do you want me to go there? I can next weekend cuz I have spring break. This is the only real way to know.
A meta-analysis of the active training journals.
You act like a training guru that discovered all the super secret gimmicks to xplosive vertz inchez
No need to judge how I think/act. My philosophy is that I know nothing actually. So I don't believe anything you say, or hold any strong opinions. However, I state them strongly, to stimulate discussion. This is fact. It may offend you, and it is a form of manipulation, but I don't say things that I believe are wrong. For example I won't firmly state, "perform depth drops with 135lbs from 24'' for 2 weeks)"
You cannot analyze the way I think effectively using only my posts on a forum. You'd have to have a in-person verbal debate with me on this issue to really understand how I think.
But yeah, as always, if you'd actually like to provide any rationale discussion apart from things like
LMAO , you can't be that retarded and believe any word of that shit-tastic paragraph. Come on , admit it , you're just trolling me and i fell for it!
and statements like this which deviate from the discussion:
I don't have anything personal with you.
(great, I dont care, me neither, I only like discussing ideas).
or things like
LOL
which promote the amygdala response I have cited numerous times. Here is a layman's guide to this response: http://www.psychologytoday.com/files/attachments/51483/handling-the-hijack.pdf
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In regards to ruso.
He doesn't look slow at all. He looks hip dominant however. Snacthces are hip dominant. I suggest jump squats. (open to debate of course as always).
Also do you realize you are looking at the ground while depth jumping?
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Jump squats with 80% of 1RM, right?
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Lmfao did avishek just reply to his own quote?
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The 80% 1RM jump squats are basically the same thing as speed squats with the optino to jump at the end. So we can call them speed squats.
I was talking about jup squats in 1/2 squat in particular.
Does everyone agree that he is hip dominant?
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Steven miller: i suck at back squats becouse the lack of ROM, but im sure i can at back squat at least what i front squat, and i dont like low bar powerlifting style couse i never know if depth its ok, half squats could be a option but they tend to put much presion on lower back and mixed with volleyball practice its kinda hard to keep up.
Anyway im working up on ROM in order to start back squating in a few weeks. Couse i do agree i should be training with back squats
Other fact is that i started doing some romanian deadlifts and when i tested my jumps they were lower than usual
Maybe you are right maybe the imbalance between hams and quads is the wrong thing.
Couse im sure that my quads and my glutes have been working during my front squat cycle
Also i dont know if you took into acount the imbalance between right calf left calf (left that should be dominant is weaker)
As well as im working on improving room i will keep pushing power training. its been going on for two weeks so two more should be ok
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In the past month, my squat 1RM decreased by around 40lbs from going on a bounding/explosive phase (I did 265 below parallel, but probbaly cannot do 225 now). However my 10/20m sprints, bounds, and vertical jump, and broad jump have all seen PRs.
You probably just lost neural strength in the squat and not so much muscle strength.
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@ruso:
Plan seems legit , keep pushing your lifts fixing any form issues you have and jump regularly and everything will fall in place.
@avishek:
I am not interested in an internet war. No comments about judging/amygdala etc.
About my curves analysis , you saying that i pulled the 1RM 20% difference from my ass shows you don't even have a clue of what those curves show and how to read them. I stand to what i said , maths 101.
About kingfish , he is a perfect example of how 1RM training improves RFD too, resulting superior jumping. You contradicted that by saying his VJ is 'longer in duration' and it doesn't provide us power information. That is a vastly retarded argument, VJ-training-wise. It points to me that you lack basic understanding of the vertical jump mechanics and physics.
PS : Noone in here , noone that comprehends the vertical jump training concept underestimates the importance of explosive movements. Still , those should be used to make you express higher percentages of your limit strength ( 1RM ) in the short time window that a jump occurs. Training only RFD will make your limit strength decrease ( or not increase ).
Ever increasing 1RM while maintaining explosiveness and jumping ability/coordination is the only way to go.
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In the past month, my squat 1RM decreased by around 40lbs from going on a bounding/explosive phase (I did 265 below parallel, but probbaly cannot do 225 now). However my 10/20m sprints, bounds, and vertical jump, and broad jump have all seen PRs.
You probably just lost neural strength in the squat and not so much muscle strength.
Yes this is very possible. Which is why i used the word "transient" loss in 1RM may not be bad because it is somewhat arbitrary.
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@avishek:
I am not interested in an internet war. No comments about judging/amygdala etc.
RIght then don't judge the way I act. Not that I mind, but of course if it's incorrect i will reply. That's not starting a war, that's called an intelligent debate.
About my curves analysis , you saying that i pulled the 1RM 20% difference from my ass shows you don't even have a clue of what those curves show and how to read them. I stand to what i said , maths 101.
RIght the y axis is not labeled so I was asking you how you figured it was a 20% difference.
Measuring by simple ruler method, the 1RM for heavy resistance trained is 35/16'' and for explosive-ballistic trained 30/16''. This results in a ratio of 7/6, which means the 1RM for the heavy strength group is 16.666%higher.
About kingfish , he is a perfect example of how 1RM training improves RFD too, resulting superior jumping. You contradicted that by saying his VJ is 'longer in duration' and it doesn't provide us power information. That is a vastly retarded argument, VJ-training-wise. It points to me that you lack basic understanding of the vertical jump mechanics and physics.
We need to be more technical. KINGFISH is not an example of anything. KINGFISH'S athletic achievements, are. And the only one I've seen that is related to the force/time graph, is his vertical jump.
Yes, his RFD improves. But you need to be exact. His rate of force development IN A CERTAIN TIME FRAME, such as the time it takes him to perform a vertical jump, of course improves, thus, he jumps higher. Obvious. But what I argued, is that the time it takes Kingfish to perform a standing vertical jump, is much greater than 0.2s, therefore, his force/time curve looks more like heavy strength trained athlete (as time increases, force increases), but this is not to say he is weak at 0.2s. I'm just saying if he were to train ump squats, I think he could shift his curve to the left and become mroe explosive in movements where force application is no greater than 0.2 s, such as sprinting.
There is no doubt you want the whole curve to be very high. But it needs to be highest at the relevant time frame. Thus heavy lifting in the absence of faster liftings prevents that. Heavy lifting together with faster lifting, does help accomplish it, but more slowly than with no heavy lifts at all imo, because the different motor patterns compete.
Still , those should be used to make you express higher percentages of your limit strength ( 1RM ) in the short time window that a jump occurs. Training only RFD will make your limit strength decrease ( or not increase ).
Ever increasing 1RM while maintaining explosiveness and jumping ability/coordination is the only way to go.
Ok, well thank you for pulling another load of bs from your ass. You just reiterated by ENTIRE ARGUMENT. I proposed a 6 WEEK PHASE for ruso, which is not at all complicated. I didn't tell him to do only RFD work for the rest of his life. Furthermore, RFD work doesn't have to decrease 1RM either. We already know that heavy (80%+) and moderate resistance lifting (50-60%1RM) result in the same increases in strength. But if it does, it will be a temporary decrease resulting from neural changes.
Ever increasing 1RM while maintaining explosiveness and jumping ability/coordination is the only way to go.
THIS, is why we disagree. And this is defintiely not the only way to go imo. Infact it's bad. As I just mentioned, and as dreyth pointed out, decreases in 1RM from going on a RFD phase without heavy lifting can decrease 1RM neurally, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH MUSCULAR STRENGTH. You can relearn that strength within a short time frame as long as you CUT OUT the faster lifts.
The benefits of dropping slow lifts, is to erase a slow motor pattern. Since this is not a problem for ruso, it doesn't matter anyway. But for an extremely slow strength trained jumper, every workout of slow heavy lifting reinforces a slow movement. Dropping these slow movements for a few weeks, shaves off a reinforced motor pattern, and allows an athlete to express his or herself in a faster time frame. THis is why I think it's beneficial to go just 2-4 weeks without any of it.
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Ok , those are better arguments. Besides the caps and ass references! :P
The 16% 1RM works for my argument though , the less the 1RM difference shown in that graph the more the heavy resistance curve is deliverately 'shortened' and hinders higher strength's benefits.
About kingfish , i mentioned him as an example of someone that dramaticaly increased his VJ pushing limit strength. I was comparing him to himself too , when he was weaker. He chose to shift his curve upwards and won. Now that he is strong maybe shifting the curve left would be more benefitial. If you can shift your curve up AND left ,then you win more , noone will disagree on that.
Ruso is not that strong though , he squats ~300, imo getting stronger is a better choice for him.
About the last part , i totally agree about slow lifts and their neural adaptations. But you argue with me as if i favoured slow lifts, i never said anything about slow lifts. If you feel like it , go back to the 1st page and see my repy to you where i say i hate how heavy strength training is considered powerlifting grinders. You jsut confirmed that stereotype i think...
I think our different ways of seeing vert training meet at Verkoshansky's MSEM method.
Maybe it would be a good idea for ruso too...
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Ok , those are better arguments. Besides the caps and ass references! :P
They are the same arguments. What is better is your understanding of it.
The 16% 1RM works for my argument though , the less the 1RM difference shown in that graph the more the heavy resistance curve is deliverately 'shortened' and hinders higher strength's benefits.
How is it "deliberately" shortened? What is deliberately shortening it? And by shortening you are talking about the 0.2s timeframe right? Because in that case, the curve is being "shortened" due to a program dominated by heavy resistance training.
About kingfish , i mentioned him as an example of someone that dramaticaly increased his VJ pushing limit strength.
Yes I knew that.
He chose to shift his curve upwards and won.
Right what I am saying is he achieved one goal, in the time frame of around 0.4s ish.
If you can shift your curve up AND left ,then you win more , noone will disagree on that.
Right,
1. Up and left relative to a specific time frame. If you look at the graph again, the curve is shifted left, but not up overall, in that 1RM is clearly less in the explosive-ballistic trained group, however at 0.2s, it is greater up, so up+ left happened in the graph (actually it didn't because they didn't tae the heavy resistance trained group and put them on the explosiveballistic trained program.. but for our purposes that is a better way of lookig at it since that is what we are trying to prescribe).
Ruso is not that strong though , he squats ~300, imo getting stronger is a better choice for him.
Front squat though. But more importantly, he said he has seen no change in his vertical jump. That's more important than the overall number.
But you argue with me as if i favoured slow lifts, i never said anything about slow lifts. If you feel like it , go back to the 1st page and see my repy to you where i say i hate how heavy strength training is considered powerlifting grinders. You jsut confirmed that stereotype i think...
All heavy lifts are slow lifts. Period. If it's greater than 0.2ms, it's slow. If your goal is to increase power in 0.4s, training at 0.5s is slow. That's not necessarily bad, and the difference between 0.5 and 0.4 is marginal, but with lifting, we are talking more like 4.0 and 50 seconds per repeition, and time undertension, which is just on another level of "slow."
I think our different ways of seeing vert training meet at Verkoshansky's MSEM method.
Maybe it would be a good idea for ruso too...
maybe, I remember the details of that method except it invovles too much exercise (5d/wk right?). I dont have time for that.
Ruso however doesn't look slow in his videos. I am not sure our arguments are even relevant anymore, i.e., it's not abotu strength or speed anymore, it's about his form. He is using his glutes and hips to jump. He needs to use his quads. However in his depth jump, it looks more balanced. So Don't know what to say about that, keep doing depth jumps.
But more clearly in the svj, he's not using those 300+lbs front squat strength because he is jumping using a similar movement pattern as his power snatch. Look at 1:34 on page 2 of his latest video. That's not a vertical jump, that's a bend-your-hips-back-and-jump. This might be better for a BROAD JUMP.
IN FACT RUSO... WHAT IS YOUR BROAD JUMP?
Also back angle tells us a lot about hip involvement.
Jump squats though imo are a good idea still because that will force him to use his quads when jumping and help transfer that latent front squat strength to strength in a 1/2 squat position. So..
Keep front squats
But do jump squats too. That's it nothing else. Do them in 1/2 half position. and 1/4 position, and below parallel.
And try to SVJ more slowly using quads.
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All heavy lifts are slow lifts. Period.
Ok , that's where i exit this thread , cheers!
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All heavy lifts are slow lifts. Period.
Ok , that's where i exit this thread , cheers!
avishek, the'yre slow lifts, but that does NOT mean they cannot have a smililar effect to explosive lifts buddy.
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All heavy lifts are slow lifts. Period.
Ok , that's where i exit this thread , cheers!
avishek, the'yre slow lifts, but that does NOT mean they cannot have a smililar effect to explosive lifts buddy.
I didn't say they couldn't. In fact I said they can make you more explosive. But in isolation they make you slow.
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I didn't say they couldn't. In fact I said they can make you more explosive. But in isolation they make you slow.
Could you elaborate?
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I didn't say they couldn't. In fact I said they can make you more explosive. But in isolation they make you slow.
Could you elaborate?
I didn't elaborate yet?
IN the context of a complete program, of course heavy lifting will make you faster and more explosive and bring your RFD up between 0.05-0.3ish s or whichever time frame you need it to be.
But considering that heavy lifts take a lot longer than 0.05-0.3s, they want to shift your RFD to the right, making you stronger only in time frames that are greater than that which is relevant to sport. Therefore, in isolation, one might become stronger in 0.7s, but not at 0.08s, where ground contacts typically last in sprinting for instance.
But sport is variable. I'm not saying that if a particular movement has a duration of 0.2s, heavy lifting will make it worse. I'm just pointing out that heavy lifting will slow down the movement. If the movement, such as a SVJ, improves, it does so probably because the duration increased. My personal experience, and what I've seen in videos, has lead me to this conclusion. Using Kingfish as an example, his SVJ takes a while and the amortization is very deep, because the dominant motor pattern in his brain is that of a deep below parallel paused squat. If he drops this for 2 weeks, his jump is going to change.
I accept that I could be completely wrong, just for the record. I've been experiencing this, and thinking about it since 5/2011 when I became more mindful of my training. Heavy lifts improved strength, but I would tend to drop faster stuff, and therefore I would become a lot slower. Just sprints/bounding/light explosive lifting would not imrpove SVJ, but did improve RVJ and sprints. Heavy lifting always makes sprints slower in terms of stride frequency, and ground contact too probably.
Doing both at the same time was usually impossible because these motor patterns I'm starting to believe are competing in the brain. Just like concurrent endurance/strength training, I've started to think that concurrent short duration explosive stuff and long duration heavy lifting competes for space in the brain. This is my hypothesis. And this is why in my own program, I taper down heavy lifting (or any lifting that takes longer than.. 0.5s), or taper down bounding, to focus on either RFD or strength alone.
Other reasons why a triple/long/high jumper might not want to do too much heavy lifting is that jumps and plyos hypertrophy the tendons and bones much more than lifting. As I have mentioned before, on a sprints/bounding/lightweight sofa lifting program for 8 weeks over the summer, my RVJ off of both plants went up 6-8 inches (28ish to 35ish entire hand over the 9'10 rim) I was weak as shit. So there is a lot more to it than strength imo and force is not just a product of muscular contraction (or even recruitment of motor units).
But I admit I need to just sit down and read more and find studies to back this up. I feel like this stuff isn't chemistry where you cannot base it off your instincts. But this type of science can be invented, just like philosphy, especially because it relies on feel, or kinesthetic learning. So my personal experience will be very important.