Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: adarqui on June 01, 2011, 12:27:15 pm
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ok i know we've talked about this before on here but definitely not using this example.. ok so im standing on a scale stiff legged, and im swinging my arms, swing down hard, weight goes up, swing up hard, weight goes down.. as to be expected of course.. the interesting thing is how far down i could get the scale to register with only modest armswing, standing normally at 153, got it down to 127 with just modest arm swing.
This is one reason I really love plate swings, seems to have alot of transfer to shoulder power specific to vert..
that's not the point of this post though.. i imagine the timing of armswing plays a huge roll in jump height, this might explain why I jumped my highest the other day on dunk attempt #82 than on any other dunk attempt.. when my shoulder power feels great, i jump better of course, but maybe not for the simple reason that i am producing more force through the hip/knee extensors by producing more force through shoulder flexion, but perhaps instead or in combination with the fact that my armswing may take place soon in my plant rather than later.
need some physics/biodynamics gurus to school us on how earlier/later onset of armswing could effect force production.
go!
:F
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some math/physiology dudes at my gym are trying to figure this out as part of a larger project to help measure work done over the course of a workout. they're crosstarded, unfortunately, but otherwise they're both very smart so it should be kind of cool to see what they come up with.
bit of a useless post, this one, but anyway, interesting thread, wot wot, pip pip cheerio, my, what's that over there?!?!
<runs away>
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some math/physiology dudes at my gym are trying to figure this out as part of a larger project to help measure work done over the course of a workout. they're crosstarded, unfortunately, but otherwise they're both very smart so it should be kind of cool to see what they come up with.
nice!!
i imagine biodynamic people could come up with something nice.. i mean, im just thinking about the vectors/forces and it makes some sense that the timing of arm swing could help to maximize the force produced by the legs, if the armswing comes a little earlier in the plant.. if you look at that thread in pics & vids, the one raptor posted, sir isaac is a good example of what i'm talking about.. check that thread out, that's exactly the type of arm swing im talking about..
bit of a useless post, this one, but anyway, interesting thread, wot wot, pip pip cheerio, my, what's that over there?!?!
<runs away>
tootle pip
pc
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I really like this thread because I personally believe the arm swing is such a key part in a succesful jump, and soooo underrated and overlooked.
I have one question though: the shoulders press up weight, while the lats make you pull stuff (like in pullups). Should the lats in reality aid that arm swing instead of the shoulders? When you gather you don't push your arms up or whatever, you rotate and "pull" yourself using the lats in my opinion. Now obviously the shoulder rotate the shoulder joint and so forth, but still.
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I really like this thread because I personally believe the arm swing is such a key part in a succesful jump, and soooo underrated and overlooked.
I have one question though: the shoulders press up weight, while the lats make you pull stuff (like in pullups). Should the lats in reality aid that arm swing instead of the shoulders? When you gather you don't push your arms up or whatever, you rotate and "pull" yourself using the lats in my opinion. Now obviously the shoulder rotate the shoulder joint and so forth, but still.
i'm not sure who it was but i think it was kelly who was saying you use a lot more lat when you plant off two feet with a ball in your hands
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Jumping & sprinting are 'literally' whole body.
Remember all that force has to pass through the core.
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I would assume that the arm swing should be timed in a way that you are overloaded in your eccentric phase but lighter in your concentric phase.
In that case, I would agree with adarqui... early swing time:
arms swing down = more weight while planting
arms swing up = less weight while rising
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For me the difference between jumping with a ball in my hands(one hand arm swing) vs without(two hands arm swings) translates in 3-4 inches.
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You can still jump well with a palmed ball off one leg... if you time your arm swing well the weight of the ball could even help.
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Are you familiar with the spiral winding technique? Rotate your palms in all the way as your arm swings down and up on the way up. Not sure how much of a difference it makes. The arm swing is not max speed so I'm not sure how much difference anything really makes as far as the arms/shoulders themselves go, but getting more muscles involved in the unloading (traps, upper back) does seem to be beneficial. I'm pretty sure if you were to do hang or block cleans or snatches for a while you would notice a difference in your 2 hand jump
Personally I've alway s felt that if a person is uncordinated enough to the point that their arm swing in the sprint or jumps has very obvious flaws then they probably have a ton of more important things to worry about too. Few things are as useless IMO as the coach wwho lines up group sof 12 year olds and has them sitting on their butts rapidly pumping their arms for sprint technical work.
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Are you familiar with the spiral winding technique? Rotate your palms in all the way as your arm swings down and up on the way up. Not sure how much of a difference it makes. The arm swing is not max speed so I'm not sure how much difference anything really makes as far as the arms/shoulders themselves go, but getting more muscles involved in the unloading (traps, upper back) does seem to be beneficial. I'm pretty sure if you were to do hang or block cleans or snatches for a while you would notice a difference in your 2 hand jump
never tried spiraling
Personally I've alway s felt that if a person is uncordinated enough to the point that their arm swing in the sprint or jumps has very obvious flaws then they probably have a ton of more important things to worry about too. Few things are as useless IMO as the coach wwho lines up group sof 12 year olds and has them sitting on their butts rapidly pumping their arms for sprint technical work.
i've actually done that with groups of kids except I never have them do it rapid, that's when the drill goes to complete crap... :) also it becomes sort of a punishment lmao
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I've never exactly understood that thing with the palms. I know it facilitates the extension on the big toe of the leg when you do it, but I don't exactly know how the palms should be oriented. Palms facing in (towards your body/legs) or facing out?
I sometimes twist my arms when I jump off two feet though, to the outside, it seems the twist innervates the body better (same stuff Steve Cotter is talking about when you do pistols - to generate irradiating tension by twisting your palms and pretending you bend an iron or something to innervate the shoulders and triceps which, in turn, return radiating energy in the body as a whole).
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Bolt spirals a lot with his thighs/legs during his starts generating huge amounts of torque through his body.
I don't exactly know how the palms should be oriented. Palms facing in (towards your body/legs) or facing out?
Having the palms facing the body would mean there just being held in neutral & not being spiralled (pronation/supination).
Are you supposed to pronate or supinate?.
Spiralling the arm action which facilitates the extension on the big toe of the leg is very interesting, never heard that one before. Where did you hear that from Raptor & what is the anatomy behind it?.
Thankyou for that.
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need some physics/biodynamics gurus to school us on how earlier/later onset of armswing could effect force production.
It's said that the more forceful and explosive the arm drive, the more forceful and explosive will be the leg drive.
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I think it was somewhere in Kelly's articles about this and how martial artists use it.
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need some physics/biodynamics gurus to school us on how earlier/later onset of armswing could effect force production.
It's said that the more forceful and explosive the arm drive, the more forceful and explosive will be the leg drive.
right of course, but i'm interested in the timing of it.. slightly different topic.
pc
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You know, I was thinking, and maybe the arm swing is what breaks my two-footed jumps - if you happen to lower the arms at the same time as the legs are amortizating the plant, then the force generated by the amortization of the bodyweight + the additional pressure created by the arms "pushing you" into the ground could possibly overload the quads and mess up the jump.
Also, if the arms and upperbody aren't moving more vertically and if the timing is bad, the upperbody will go forward and you will jump forward (will not be able to convert from horizontal movement to vertical movement).
I should film my two-footed jumps from the side and compare them to someone else at the same moment in time and see what I find out.