Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: TKXII on December 18, 2011, 12:47:42 am
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Full title: THe right and wrong way to squat: most people reading this squat the wrong way.
I'm going to make this really short, but after a few responses I'll get more detailed.
Almost everyone I see in the gym does the useless type of squat for athleticism: you can call it the toe-to-heel squat. Weak glutes, laziness, ego and resultant desire to stack more plates on the bar, tight adductors/hipflexors, are all potential contributors to this calamity plaguing athletes every hour of the day.
When I teach people how to squat (as the bona fide personal trainer I am), most people will initially descend on toes and ascend shifting to heels, performing this evil toe-to-heel squat. As a result, I came up with (as plenty of other moderately intelligent men and women have), of teaching a heel-to-toe squat. Descend, focusing on heels, ascend, rising on toes. Works wonders.
It's important to understand the importance of this because many people who get interested in jumping higher subsequently become interested in weight lifting, and many waste their time due to incorrect form, and then lose interest in vertical jump and cease to see any gains so instead just focus on strength training. I've seen plenty of 'impressive' squat videos on this forum that are unfortunately toe-to-heel evil squats; and the athletes squatting this way usually have a poor vertical jump because this type of squatting won't transfer as well to VJ.
Here is a toe to heel squat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTk7azSIAXQ
at 00:11, she is on her toes, at 00:12, she shifts her weight back onto her entire foot, and then shifts back to toe.
Concomitant with toe-heel mechanics are the positions of the knee and hip joints; the knee and hip tend to move in directions that they would not during athletic events in a vertical (coronal), or horizontal (sagittal) planes.
Compare the way her hips and knees move in relation to her box jumping:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0hgELLBI08
In weight lifting, since the planes are slightly more restricted, the knees of toe-to-heel (to be called toe squatters from now on) push back tremendously. Notice in the squat video, that while her knees move back, her hips also move back. THis would be good if the athlete wanted to improve her ability to jump backwards.
It's easier to lift more weight this way though for sure and that's why people do it.
Here is another example of toe squatting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLnUDaxMmnU
The video I was looking for though was when frank yang literally jumped backwards after a max squat, throwing the bar in front of him... That wouldn't be possible if he were heel squatting, and transferring the forces to the toes, and extending more at the hip, because HE would be moving forwards slightly with the bar. Toe squatters move backwards, and this creates a nice levrage to lift more weight up. THe clearest evidence is in the knees, they come forward, and move back exaggeratedly as I mentioned earlier. Of course the knees do that in a vertical jump as well because that is how knee extension works in the coronal plane, but not as much. And NOBODY vertical jumps descending on their toes and ascending on their heels or some part of the foot behind the toes.
Of coruse frank could jump high, but I am confident he'd be able to jump higher if he could squat the same numbers with the form I recommend... the same form everyone recommends in fact. It's natural to transfer weight forward whether it's walking, running, or jumping. I've taken videos of my deadlifts and noticed I fail to get back on my heels during the eccentric wth 70% of greater of 1rm. It's weakness.
The challenge then arises: who can jump the highest, with the weakest squat? (assuming you weren't naturally jumping freakishly high, also assuming the squat is the heel-to-toe correct squat of course). Those wth strong squat who cannot jump high are probably doing toe to heel squats.
Lastly, you'll immediately feel a difference in recruited musculature after doing it correctly.
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I have not read that much rubbish in quite a while on this forum. The fact that you seem to train people makes me really sad. I really do not know what to say about this since so much stuff was already covered here and elsewhere about related topics. For example why it is fucking stupid to try to mimic a jump when back squatting. Also note how every squat you posted was done with inappropriate shoes. And that you did not post video of a squat that you thought was correct. Or how the first video is not even a squat in the first place. It is also fascinating that you dichotomize squats in "right" and "wrong" and continue to refer to two types of "squats", that not even many people do or propose and which are, btw., both wrong.
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If you want to be credible post links. Having strong opinions and being angry can make your argument sound smart but it's a pretty naive strategy. Post some rational flow of ideas than trying to lambast ideas that go against your own.
1. About the first video not being a true squat, it doesn't matter. It's still transmitting forces toe-to-heel and therefore isn't the best, and actually it is a squat variation that couldn't be more clear.
2. Far more appropriate than wearing timberlands.. you don't need the best type of shoes to squat heel-to-toe, just correct form.
3. Dn't know what you're last point is about "dichotomizing" squat variations that don't exist. I clearly posted the video. if you don't want to accept anything whatsoever then you're not contributing shit.
4. On performing a back squat like a jump being stupid: post the link. Also I did not say you have to perform it exactly like a jump since that's not possible. What I said was don't descend on the toes like Frank Yang and the girl in the video did (i.e. don't descend with your heels elevating). That's nothing new.
5. I've watched your squat video but can't see the feet. Your hips move back as well during the first 1/2 of the concentric showing that you are probbly pushing back a little bit. You also don't have a good SVJ despite having a decent squat ratio. But your squat was better than Frank Yangs and is more specific because it's more heel-to-toe. Maybe I need a better way to describe these two types of squats.
6. Another toe-to-heel squat 05:40ish, and 08:47 -most prominent with the right foot at the first time, and you can see the hips traveling backwards in the front squat at 8:47 onwards and the heels elevating and the athlete shifting weight to the inside of the feet.You are saying that that type of squatting is better for vertical jump than trying to go heel-to-toe and that therefore it's stupid to squat as if you were going to jump? I mean some people with weak glutes and muscular imbalances in and around the hip will certainly jump off the inside of their feet creating a valgus knee angle. But thta should be corrected b/c it's due to weakness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_lV2xZ048
7. Ok here's a correct squat. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE A FULL BACK FUCKING SQUAT. WHAT MATTERS ARE THE LEVER ARMS, AND FORCE VECTORS I.E. WHERE THE FORCES ARE COMING FROM AND WHAT DIRECTION THEY'RE GIONG IN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G84VT4U5gvQ
hips go down and back on descent. hips go up and forward on ascension. It's possible to back squat without your hips having to move backwards ont he ascension.
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I don't try to be credible or even to have a discussion with you. There is nothing to be gained by talking to people whose misinformation starts with the most basic things and who expect you to spoon fed everything to them.
The sole intention of my last post was to inform you that, in my opinion, you posted rubbish - again.
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I am very curious to know how/why steven miller's 35'' SVJ is 'not good' and how his 420x5 ATG squat is 'decent'.
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises.
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises.
I do, trust me. I take into consideration and all that, but IN MY OPINION, BASED ON HIS STRENGTH NUMBERS, you'd expect a higher SVJ. I'm not "laughing at" whatsoever. 35 is no joke.
If diminutive 5'5 O-lifters jump 40+, you'd expect a taller guy with better leverage to do better at 420x5 squat, even if that weaker than what O-lifters squat.
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You'd expect a guy with a 420x5 squat to jump higher than 35 SVJ. Just my opinion.
First, a TRUE 35 svj at his bw of ~200 lbs is not something to laugh at, you dont take into consideration the length of his levers, his bw, fiber distribution, etc. etc., so thats a very dumb statement. Figure up your squat to bw ratio, and your TRUE svj, then compare it to his ratio. Maybe he "only" jumps 35 because he doesnt squat on his toes though, hed be flying the rest of high flyers who over analyze and butcher the living fuck out of general strength exercises.
I do, trust me. I take into consideration and all that, but IN MY OPINION, BASED ON HIS STRENGTH NUMBERS, you'd expect a higher SVJ. I'm not "laughing at" whatsoever. 35 is no joke.
If diminutive 5'5 O-lifters jump 40+, you'd expect a taller guy with better leverage to do better at 420x5 squat, even if that weaker than what O-lifters squat.
since their SQUAT is the reason for their vj ........... the dudes JUMP heavy weights overhead and through space all day long, but that damn squat is all thats making the jumps high.
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
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to make this "best squat-style" for SVJ, id say learn to front squat and use the closest movement pattern on a high bar back squat. simple. done.
my best front squat recently in less than 8 weeks of doing them is in the mid-high 300s.. and im not failing from lack of quads.. my wrist gives out while i try to push the bar / prevent the bar from falling out of my deltoids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGSq-YOYOmw
if you don't have the flexibility for a clean grip.. the best harness i recently saw the trainers in my gym is using looks like a 8-10" rod with extended hooks at both ends to grip the bar (2 harness, 1 for each hand). you will front squat with your wrist a good 6-8" above your deltoids, almost at ear level. this harness also makes low bar squatting alot easier on the wrist since you can grip a low bar with wrists almost at high bar wide
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
x 2 bro, i dont get these morons not learning from an experienced elite guru such as yourself. you have brought us the avishek drops that dont need to be absorbed, the jumping round backed powercleans and snatches, and amazing running deadlifts and smash the swiss ball off balance pistols.
why someone wouldnt follow your advice is beyond individuals such as myself, you have proven that you are insanely strong and athletic, i mean i dont know too many people on the earth lifting those massive poundages with that type form other than the master himself, diesel weasel. nor people who can actually fly like yourself and grab a basketball rim. I mean come on guys, how can u not take this dude serious, just look at the wealth of knowledge he exhibits in his videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV6LC9LMl_o
beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMZH74q3sjo
POWER.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBB75dYZqjU
ELITE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwNWpttORgY
GENIUS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4vg1VnFaHI
NO WORDS FOR THE ELITENESS OF THIS
i mean come the fuck on guys, stop arguing about random shit and listen to this guy please hes a FUCKING GENIUS.
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No Avishek drops video, no point taken ^^^
Sorry.
EDIT: Actually there are "some" drops but not 10 feet +. That sucks.
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
lol
If you get relatively stronger in any kind of squat (after neural gains), your jump is going to go up. Doesn't matter if it's optimal
A 35 inch jump is higher than most players in the NFL (take into account inflation). I'm sure a lot of them are strong enough to squat 2xBW. I'm not sure what you are basing your numbers on. You're too distracted by e-stats to know how people actually jump. Thank people like Rip for that.
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"Must use legs to push effectively with pecs" Interesting.
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Nobody is focusing on the argument, how intelligent we are.
I made a revision to my argument; if you are squatting significantly below parallel, then it is good for thehips to go back, but above parallel, it is not since the quads become more involved.
And actually here is a more recent training video of mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_yOYQ1358c
My DL max has gone up around 100lbs in less than 2.5mos. I hit 425 a couple weeks ago pretty easily. Going for 3xbw.
Yes kingfish I like front squats, it's hard to lean forward but the same thing does apply. Your pelvis really should not be moving backwards once above parallel. Squatting to just below or exactly at parallel is definitely better for power development in the long run imo since the amortization is challenging the correct musculature in the correct way. In atg squats the amortization and muscle involvement is way different. I notice how atg or below parallel is almost easier than just parallel, or half-squats with the same weight, adarq talked about that before.
Edit: I'd like to congratulate Kingfish actually, good job. Squat form is heel-to-toe and you can see the difference in his knees, they don't move so much in the horizontal plane compared to the toe-to-heel squats, and the hips move forward above parallel. That's what I'm talking about. It feels better and works better.
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It's interesting how people start debating about other random shit in a debate after realizing they can't make any valid points.
I don't think anyone can disagree (and that's why no one has made any comments on it), that descending with elevated heels, and ascending with the hips pushing backwards, and the heels depressed, is better than squatting heel-to-toe as a mental cue, or has any relevance to vertical jump, sprinting, or any athletic movement involving plantar flexion, knee and hip extension.
This is really not overanalyzed. It's common sense. Actually, kinesthetic sense. Don't think about it.. feel about it. It doesn't make sense to squat this way. It's the lazy way to squat and happens under fatigue.
Lastly, steven has a good VJ after watching the video closely. I thought it was only 30 at first but looks like it could be 35. But yes for having over a 2xbw squat, it could be way better. His reason would be slow RFD, because I looked at his form and it is not bad at all, there is a tiny amount of hip movement backwards but not much comapared to these other videos. Frank Yang had a very good VJ, but squatted toe-to-heel (but trained very explosively) so the point is thus, you can develop strong quads by squatting incorrectly toe-to-heel, but you can get stronger in a more specific fashion heel-to-toe. Not incredibly huge of a deal, but enough worth posting about.
lol
If you get relatively stronger in any kind of squat (after neural gains), your jump is going to go up. Doesn't matter if it's optimal
A 35 inch jump is higher than most players in the NFL (take into account inflation). I'm sure a lot of them are strong enough to squat 2xBW. I'm not sure what you are basing your numbers on. You're too distracted by e-stats to know how people actually jump. Thank people like Rip for that.
I agree 35 is good, and yes it is higher than most NFL players. If I had statistics to look at people training for vertical jump and their squat numbers that would definitely be helpful because I can't be sure that his VJ could be way higher from his squat. Point taken.
I guess I was basing it off of my experience. But my levers are different than his. I think my svj is around 34, and my max squat squat is at 225ish. I can barely get 225 up and from submax calculators its around 230. I weigh slightly under 160 so my ratio sucks but I jump well standing for someone who has not trained the squat till this year.
One other reason many people have high squats but bad vertical jumps is because they go too deep I'd say. As I mentioned in a previous comment, you don't train the muscles as they are used in a vertical so that is not optimal. I don't know exactly why but going slightly below parallel has some advantage to abruptly changing directions at or slightly above parallel. It may be due to pushing the hips back which is not easy above parallel.
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why are you all wasting your time with this?
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1. So that we do not have to play with imaginary numbers here: My best SVJ is 36", achieved several times. My best full squat was 441 lbs (200 kg) for 5.
2. We are discussing the ideas of someone whose best squat is 225 lbs - about as much as I powersnatch. There is nothing wrong with squatting that much, most people, obviously, have been there at some point in time. But most people would also ask for advice at this stage instead of giving it and pointing out form errors of much stronger people.
3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something".
4. I don't know why my squat technique has been a point of discussion here, but I recognize that there have always been problems with my squat technique and never have I claimed to have textbook form. I will continue improving on that once I am back to squatting. What Avishek points out regarding my form errors is partially correct but probably more by chance than by correct observation.
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why are you all wasting your time with this?
OMG, I just watched those videos. It's far worse than I thought. You are right. I am out of here.
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Avishek, how about posting a video of you doing your "correct" squat form, so that we can better understand your stance. thanks.
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why are you all wasting your time with this?
Normally I let that shit go but I dont want new members that come to this forum to see a thread like this, where things are stated as fact, rather than a beginners opinion, and follow blindly, end up getting hurt. If he had said, "In my opinion, you should squat on your ....." then that would be fine.
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Yes kingfish I like front squats, it's hard to lean forward but the same thing does apply. Your pelvis really should not be moving backwards once above parallel. Squatting to just below or exactly at parallel is definitely better for power development in the long run imo since the amortization is challenging the correct musculature in the correct way. In atg squats the amortization and muscle involvement is way different. I notice how atg or below parallel is almost easier than just parallel, or half-squats with the same weight, adarq talked about that before.
Edit: I'd like to congratulate Kingfish actually, good job. Squat form is heel-to-toe and you can see the difference in his knees, they don't move so much in the horizontal plane compared to the toe-to-heel squats, and the hips move forward above parallel. That's what I'm talking about. It feels better and works better.
i do not shift the load (toe/heel) in my squats. that is very unsafe and can really get somebody injured.
i focus on keeping the load distributed evenly with a little bias to the front 2/3s. i have size 12 shoes. everybody's form will be different. i also have a good amount of dorsi flexion ROM at the bottom.
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I was watching the deadlift video and thinking Avishek is finally doing something normal.... Then he starts trying to lift the bar with one arm hahaha
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why are you all wasting your time with this?
Normally I let that shit go but I dont want new members that come to this forum to see a thread like this, where things are stated as fact, rather than a beginners opinion, and follow blindly, end up getting hurt. If he had said, "In my opinion, you should squat on your ....." then that would be fine.
fair enough.
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I do not state anything as fact at least I do not try to. I'm open to the idea that everything I think is wrong like a true philospher. But still, nobody has commented on descending on the toes, after I posted several videos of this type of squatting and steven insists that it does not exist and therefore my argument is flawed because I didn't take into consideration that this has been discussed before. Post some fucking links jesus christ.
My max squat is only 225 because I just started to train it in order to be normal. I did not want to train it the past 3 years. of my training.
I can post a video of myself squatting soon, but Kingfishes is spot on so check that one out on page 1. Again, a clear difference is in the way the knees track. Just watch how little his knees actually move horizontally compared to frank yang's squat.
Also again steven, I said you had good form. I have nothing against your form actually, I can't see your feet perfectly though.
Kingfish - I recommend squatting heels bottom, toe at the top, not toe bottom heel top as you might have said I recommended and it's not unsafe at all with a moderate weight. This is just to teach people not to descend on the toes as they would prefer.
"3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something". "
-THis is very true, but false at the same time. Taking into recognition all this past research is not a prerequisite for having a good argument, sound methods and logic are. My argument certainly does not take into recognition anything, I have no references, as I mentioned, I am using my common/kinesthetic sense and experience to analyze this and in reality i'm looking for feedback and an intelligent discussion which has not been made yet because nobody has the good will to just lay out some research and post some links. Instead people would rather be closed minded and brainless, except Lance who asked me to post my form. Steve, if you think you have all this wealth of fucking knowledge the correct thing to do is to just post it and it takes care of itself. The fact that you are commenting on my squat numbers and level of expertise shows you are lost as fuck and don't know how to rebut my argument off the top of your head. So basically, this is not biochemistry, or quantum physics, you don't need much of a brain to figure out this shit and I don't need to post references or have read every book on the subject to say something that makes sense.
LANCE: You think someone is going to increase their chances of injury from squatting heel-to-toe rather than toe-to-heel as they would probably do naturally? As the individuals in the videos I posted squat? What's worse for your knees? Answer is pretty obvious. THis argument is so fucking simple I do not understand why people don't get it.
And see? No one has even commented on my argument. Instead you pussy faggots post my old videos which do not represent my current training and ignore the main argument because you have no control over your amygdalas since you are all teenagers.
The one armed deadlifts are for grip strength undoubtable. It's more of a hold than a lift.
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Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.
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Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.
Let's see how much YOU can squat with PROPER heel to toe transition! :pissed:
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Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.
Despite having a poor squat, I can jump standing higher than most people with better squat ratios. That's important. So instead of striving for higher numbers, making the squat the most specific/powerful is more important. And my true max is really 230. Lol that still sucks I know. Not to mention that power and force training are totally different and having a heavy squat does not mean you are the most powerful with a 50%1RM jump squat or even BW.
My Max deadlift is 2.7x BW above 425 at this point. So that's good. That might slightly improve my SVJ as well so who knows. I think I can hit the three in less than a month.
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I do not state anything as fact at least I do not try to. I'm open to the idea that everything I think is wrong like a true philospher. But still, nobody has commented on descending on the toes, after I posted several videos of this type of squatting and steven insists that it does not exist and therefore my argument is flawed because I didn't take into consideration that this has been discussed before. Post some fucking links jesus christ.
My max squat is only 225 because I just started to train it in order to be normal. I did not want to train it the past 3 years. of my training.
I can post a video of myself squatting soon, but Kingfishes is spot on so check that one out on page 1. Again, a clear difference is in the way the knees track. Just watch how little his knees actually move horizontally compared to frank yang's squat.
Also again steven, I said you had good form. I have nothing against your form actually, I can't see your feet perfectly though.
Kingfish - I recommend squatting heels bottom, toe at the top, not toe bottom heel top as you might have said I recommended and it's not unsafe at all with a moderate weight. This is just to teach people not to descend on the toes as they would prefer.
"3. The main problem with Avishek's actual argument is that it takes no recognition of thoughts previously spelled out by experienced coaches and experts. One can certainly name several of those figures, many of which will voice different opinions. Avishek however does not take notice of anyone who has thought through a lot of things and has provided conclusive lines of thought regarding optimal back squat technique for performance training. Instead he constructs, due to his limited experience and knowledge, some dichotomy that is really not there (toe-to-heal and heal-to-toe) and tries to underpin it with an incomplete "analysis" of "something". "
-THis is very true, but false at the same time. Taking into recognition all this past research is not a prerequisite for having a good argument, sound methods and logic are. My argument certainly does not take into recognition anything, I have no references, as I mentioned, I am using my common/kinesthetic sense and experience to analyze this and in reality i'm looking for feedback and an intelligent discussion which has not been made yet because nobody has the good will to just lay out some research and post some links. Instead people would rather be closed minded and brainless, except Lance who asked me to post my form. Steve, if you think you have all this wealth of fucking knowledge the correct thing to do is to just post it and it takes care of itself. The fact that you are commenting on my squat numbers and level of expertise shows you are lost as fuck and don't know how to rebut my argument off the top of your head. So basically, this is not biochemistry, or quantum physics, you don't need much of a brain to figure out this shit and I don't need to post references or have read every book on the subject to say something that makes sense.
LANCE: You think someone is going to increase their chances of injury from squatting heel-to-toe rather than toe-to-heel as they would probably do naturally? As the individuals in the videos I posted squat? What's worse for your knees? Answer is pretty obvious. THis argument is so fucking simple I do not understand why people don't get it.
And see? No one has even commented on my argument. Instead you pussy faggots post my old videos which do not represent my current training and ignore the main argument because you have no control over your amygdalas since you are all teenagers.
The one armed deadlifts are for grip strength undoubtable. It's more of a hold than a lift.
TLDR
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Actually, my max squat to just below parallel is higher than 225. 225 is referring to atg, completely paused at the bottom.
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I don't know what's your fetish with specificity. Even if it were like you're saying, a full squat is more about building muscle than a specificity exercise for jumping. You have, well, jumping to teach jumping. Plyos, jumps squats, etc etc etc.
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Really? Build muscle? I didn't know that. Cuz you can just build muscle with leg extensions. ANd I don't know either, I'm jst a perfectionist so I have this fetish I know. Lol it sued to be worse though way worse.
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Nobody cares about your argument because your max squat is 225.
Despite having a poor squat, I can jump standing higher than most people with better squat ratios. That's important. So instead of striving for higher numbers, making the squat the most specific/powerful is more important. And my true max is really 230. Lol that still sucks I know. Not to mention that power and force training are totally different and having a heavy squat does not mean you are the most powerful with a 50%1RM jump squat or even BW.
My Max deadlift is 2.7x BW above 425 at this point. So that's good. That might slightly improve my SVJ as well so who knows. I think I can hit the three in less than a month.
But you said you didn't squat until recently, but you were able to jump high before, meaning the "proper" squats have nothing to do with your jump
/thread
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But you said you didn't squat until recently, but you were able to jump high before, meaning the "proper" squats have nothing to do with your jump
/thread
This.
Also about me being unable to critique your points... There are actually just too many things wrong with your analysis and I don't have time nor motivation to explain this exercise to you. I recommend that you read Starting Strength by Rippetoe for 60+ pages on just squat technique for one point of view. Just an example of a conclusive line of thought - something that you have not provided in the slightest.
To get you started: Why don't you explain to me what happens with high weights when balance is off the mid-foot and onto heels or toes. Your experience does not apply here since you have never in your life squatted a heavy weight. But maybe your amazing thinking skills can help you out.
Btw., the plural of amygdala is amygdalae and you don't seem to understand the purpose of this structure.
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What about high bar quad driven squats vs low bar hip driven squats for athleticism (read - for specificity). Some say high bar is better since there's more emphasis on quads and the quads are more important in terms of jumping and athleticism in general since they can decelerate you, help a ton with the amortization phase in a jump, help you stop on a dime, help will all kinds of movements. Sure Rippetoe comes in saying that if you can already front squat, why waste time with another quad oriented squat like the high bar squat and not go with low bar hip oriented.
Does anybody buy into any of that?
Should a guy that can't/don't want to front squat go with a high bar squat to prevent the quad from "being ignored" as there'll be less emphasis with a low bar squat on quad development/focus/tension etc etc?
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Despite just recently squatting and starting out with almost a 30''svj, my SVJ has gone up 4'' with about 40+lbs increase in squat. Once I get to 315 with this style I can comment again. THis has to do with specificity of the squat.
Interesting point about the amygdalae. And I very well do understand their purpose and deal with it in every single debate I am in since most people cannot think rationally under stress. But still steven you are not providing a rebuttal, you are playing the "go do your own research you fool" card. If you provide the adequate rebuttal with say a few quotes or so it would take care of the argument itself. I don't have too much interest in rippetoe, nor do I need to learn to squat properly. I'm trainig for vertical jumping and speed, not to squat more weight. I only mildly appreciate his amygdala-infused inspirational quotes people base their training on. Surely the 'proper' way to squat may be to go back on your heels, but not for athletic enhancement.
You don't have to do a calf-raise at the top of the squat in order to squat heel-to-toe. What's most important is that you don't go backwards on your heels. The point is that in a jump, you accelerate constantly (technically speaking you always accelerate due to gravity.. and it's always downwards..) If you do that in the squat, it could help you jump higher than going back on the heels. I'll post a video of myself soon making this distinction next time as soon as I get the chance to with weights. I suppose this is very similar to the argument, should you try to jump squat every rep you squat? Imo.. it would be better. It's not possible to jump squat with too much weight, but aiming to accelerate the bar upwards may be better. And a side effect of that is.. you're on your forefoot not on heels at the top.
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You squat 225, your argument is invalid. No rebuttal is necessary
/thead
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Avishek, I reckon next time you should try a less blunt approach when you have something to discuss. I THINK that I understand what you're saying about the 'toe-heel' movement while squatting and its dissimilarity to an athlete's jumping action, but your point has really become lost with your "me against the forum" attitude.
If beginners are actually reading this topic to know the right and wrong way to move your feet while squatting, Kingfish has it right:
i do not shift the load (toe/heel) in my squats. that is very unsafe and can really get somebody injured.
i focus on keeping the load distributed evenly with a little bias to the front 2/3s. i have size 12 shoes. everybody's form will be different. i also have a good amount of dorsi flexion ROM at the bottom.
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@Raptor: Dropping names and "quoting" things those people never said makes you look foolish.
@Avishek: At this point it is apparent that you do not want to learn but just to rant. If you are not interested that's fine, but don't state your noob opinions as anything they are not (dito for amygdalae btw., you have no fucking clue what you are talking about).
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Despite just recently squatting and starting out with almost a 30''svj, my SVJ has gone up 4'' with about 40+lbs increase in squat. Once I get to 315 with this style I can comment again. THis has to do with specificity of the squat.
If u did the 'wrong' squat would you jump higher , lower , or the same?
Says who? Based on what research?
Surely the 'proper' way to squat may be to go back on your heels, but not for athletic enhancement.
Says who? Based on what research?
If you do that in the squat, it could help you jump higher than going back on the heels.
Says who? Based on what research?
I don't have too much interest in rippetoe, nor do I need to learn to squat properly. I'm trainig for vertical jumping and speed, not to squat more weight.
/thread
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Just drop a plate on your toe and if you do it right and actually fracture something, you can use it as a way to keep the weight (or tension or life force or whatever you wanna call it) on your heel rather than toes. Worked for me. I fractured mine last friday and I was squatting heel-to-toe (or the other way around? the OPs classification is not very clear) this monday. Hope this helps the newbies reading this thread.
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Just drop a plate on your toe and if you do it right and actually fracture something, you can use it as a way to keep the weight (or tension or life force or whatever you wanna call it) on your heel rather than toes. Worked for me. I fractured mine last friday and I was squatting heel-to-toe (or the other way around? the OPs classification is not very clear) this monday. Hope this helps the newbies reading this thread.
hahahahaha, only worthwhile post in this entire thread. +1,000
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THe real argument is - should you try to jump with the weight as if you're jumping in a squat. The toe-to-heel terminology is a bit confusing.
I don't have research whoever asked me for that. I'm merely stating and sharing my opinion. As I mentioned, it would be fun to see research on this, all I have is empirical evidence so far. Furthermore, I did not mean to state it all as fact. But hey if someone really would like to provide research to readily refute this, go ahead I'm all eyes and ears. Has not come forth as of yet
Steven - learn so spell ditto correctly. I'm sorry I offended you you take things like a little bitch does.
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THe real argument is - should you try to jump with the weight as if you're jumping in a squat. The toe-to-heel terminology is a bit confusing.
I don't have research whoever asked me for that. I'm merely stating and sharing my opinion. As I mentioned, it would be fun to see research on this, all I have is empirical evidence so far. Furthermore, I did not mean to state it all as fact. But hey if someone really would like to provide research to readily refute this, go ahead I'm all eyes and ears. Has not come forth as of yet
Steven - learn so spell ditto correctly. I'm sorry I offended you you take things like a little bitch does.
strong, strong use of the word "empirical."
perhaps learn to spell "do" correctly when correcting others' spelling.
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THe real argument is - should you try to jump with the weight as if you're jumping in a squat. The toe-to-heel terminology is a bit confusing.
I don't have research whoever asked me for that. I'm merely stating and sharing my opinion. As I mentioned, it would be fun to see research on this, all I have is empirical evidence so far. Furthermore, I did not mean to state it all as fact. But hey if someone really would like to provide research to readily refute this, go ahead I'm all eyes and ears. Has not come forth as of yet
Steven - learn so spell ditto correctly. I'm sorry I offended you you take things like a little bitch does.
Strong use of a conjunction.
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That's it mister, you're on a TIME OUT!
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(http://gifs.gifbin.com/072011/1310121676_angry_wrestler.gif)
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THe real argument is - should you try to jump with the weight as if you're jumping in a squat. The toe-to-heel terminology is a bit confusing.
I don't have research whoever asked me for that. I'm merely stating and sharing my opinion. As I mentioned, it would be fun to see research on this, all I have is empirical evidence so far. Furthermore, I did not mean to state it all as fact. But hey if someone really would like to provide research to readily refute this, go ahead I'm all eyes and ears. Has not come forth as of yet
Steven - learn so spell ditto correctly. I'm sorry I offended you you take things like a little bitch does.
strong, strong use of the word "empirical."
perhaps learn to spell "do" correctly when correcting others' spelling.
Perhaps, learn to capitalize letters in the beginning of a sentence.
"Empirical research is a way of gaining knowledge by means of direct and indirect observation or experience" - observational evidence may be the most appropriate term.
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Perhaps learn how to use commas.
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I was watching the deadlift video and thinking Avishek is finally doing something normal.... Then he starts trying to lift the bar with one arm hahaha
not a deadlift video, he is merely picking something up off the ground.
Yes there is a difference, his form is shit and being a personal trainer that's pretty laughable, especially his earlier videos.
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Perhaps learn how to use commas.
I always had a problem with commas bro.
Eric: have you ever done a stiff-legged deadlift with your feet close together? Yeah I agree my older videos are funny in many ways.
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yes I have but we all know thats not what you are trying to do, your form just sucks so bad it turns into that
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yes I have but we all know thats not what you are trying to do, your form just sucks so bad it turns into that
True. I guess i invented this exercise all on my own! Woopie!