Author Topic: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement  (Read 5677 times)

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Gary

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Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« on: June 15, 2011, 12:04:17 pm »
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I really got into weightlifting to become more explosive overall, not become a great weightlifter. Turns out I suck for unfixable reasons. I have really long arms: 6'4" wingspan at a little under 5'10". This vastly increases the distance of my second pull (the bar hangs very far away from where it has to come to rest on my shoulders) compared to if my arms were a few inches shorter, and keeps me from getting good bar position close to the hips at the start of that pull.

I've had great success just training jumps themselves to increase explosiveness. I wonder if this explosiveness will be jump specific or if I'll see improvements in my ability to do the classic lifts. I've already noticed that my near-max deadlifts and squats are moving faster. I had become a real "grinder" over the past couple years of raw powerlifting, but that quickly changed as I added inches to my vertical.

Obviously the classic lifts are about 1/3 technique so they require practice. But practicing them without strength or with just strength but no explosive ability is a waste of time, something I can tell you from experience. But at the lower levels I occupy, increases in raw explosive strength ought to carry over, oughtn't they? I plan to test this assumption in a few months after I get my vertical a full 10" higher than it was when I was practicing the classic lifts.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 12:06:03 pm by Gary »
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

LanceSTS

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 01:12:11 pm »
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I really got into weightlifting to become more explosive overall, not become a great weightlifter. Turns out I suck for unfixable reasons. I have really long arms: 6'4" wingspan at a little under 5'10". This vastly increases the distance of my second pull (the bar hangs very far away from where it has to come to rest on my shoulders) compared to if my arms were a few inches shorter, and keeps me from getting good bar position close to the hips at the start of that pull.

One thing you need to do with longer arms is adjust your grip out accordingly, yes it will increase the distance on the first pull, but will end up making your second pull much more explosive.  With your deadlift strength moving your grip out a few inches shouldnt be an issue on the first pull anyhow.

Quote
I've had great success just training jumps themselves to increase explosiveness. I wonder if this explosiveness will be jump specific or if I'll see improvements in my ability to do the classic lifts. I've already noticed that my near-max deadlifts and squats are moving faster. I had become a real "grinder" over the past couple years of raw powerlifting, but that quickly changed as I added inches to my vertical.

 You will see improvements in everything, by increasing explosive strength.  Your body learns how to turn on more motor units, faster,  and utilize the stretch reflex more efficiently, which will definitely carry over to the lifts.

Quote
Obviously the classic lifts are about 1/3 technique so they require practice. But practicing them without strength or with just strength but no explosive ability is a waste of time, something I can tell you from experience. But at the lower levels I occupy, increases in raw explosive strength ought to carry over, oughtn't they? I plan to test this assumption in a few months after I get my vertical a full 10" higher than it was when I was practicing the classic lifts.

for sure, the thing about the olympic lifts and especially the olympic variants more specific to jumping is you dont need to have super efficient technique to get gains in speed and power.  This is one reason I like the hang clean and hang/jump snatch, the pre stretch that occurs when one dips down before the lift is very similar to the way you load a vertical jump.  Sure you get the benefit of SOME stretch reflex with the double knee bend as well when they are performed from the ground, but the eccentric/immediate concentric action that occurs from the hang position (assuming you do this correctly for jumping) is unique to hang cleans and hang snatches.
Relax.

Gary

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 02:40:14 pm »
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Thanks for the reply!

Quick note: my hands were all the way out to the collars on the snatch and the bar was still closer to my patella than it was to my hip joint. I can scratch my patella by shrugging down and not bending over. Combination of a fairly short torso and unusually long arms (almost 10% wider wingspan than height). That's how long my arms are and how badly I'm built to do the classic lifts and bench.

Good point about the hang versions and the stretch reflex. When I got into WL I wanted to do it right and practiced the lifts from the floor and occasionally from blocks, but never from the hang. Quickly got frustrated with that, like a 6'6" man trying to be a winning jockey.
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

Gary

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 03:33:13 pm »
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I believe M.Rippetoe has said that squat strength and standing vertical are very good predictors of snatch, clean and jerk numbers, obviously allowing for levels of skill.

I was getting pretty smooth with my snatches at around the three month mark, but the best I ever did was 94% of bodyweight. Best clean was 88 kg at 80 kg bodyweight. Meanwhile, high school kids were putting up double bodyweight with ugly "football" cleans. I was just plain weak and very slow by comparison.

There's a lot of talk about efficiency, or being able to snatch or clean a target percentage of front and back squat weight. I guess I wasn't all that weak (back squat near 2xBW and front squat about 75-80% of that), but I was slow. My vertical at the time was 22" with the occasional 23". I am very curious to see how much better I would do now with about the same squat strength but a much higher vertical (27" usually with the occasional 28"). I just started Smolov and don't want to mess around with max snatch attempts right now, but I am very tempted. Of course I could just wait till Smolov+Feduleyev ups my squat strength and I get my vertical up another 3-4 inches and then see.

345 BS x 22" SVJ = 74 kilo snatch
405 BS x 32" SVJ = ?????

Sorry to keep on with this, but I was banging my head against the same snatch and clean numbers for months and I would be thrilled if my current training actually improved my classic lifts. The classic lifts themselves are often pushed as ways to get stronger and more powerful, but I'm more and more convinced that for a lot of people, the classic lifts are a demonstration of strength and power and that squatting and plyometrics are superior for improving strength and power.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 03:36:59 pm by Gary »
Height: 5'9.5"
Wingspan: 6'4"
Standing Reach Barefoot: 7'10"
Weight: 175 lbs
Standing Vertical Jump: 29"
Running Vertical Jump Bilateral: 30.5"
Running Vertical Jump, Unilateral: 25"
Standing Broad Jump: 9'3"
Beltless High Bar Squat: 365
Beltless Conventional Deadlift: 450
Low Bar Squat w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 418
Sumo Deadlift w/ Belt (in USAPL raw): 506

LanceSTS

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 06:17:45 pm »
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 The ratio of squat to clean and squat to snatch is going to only ring true with the FULL lifts, and not nearly as accurate or predictable with the POWER versions of the lifts.  Ive seen several occasions where, the best, most explosive athletes, will actually power clean MORE than they full squat.  There is no beating the system on the power versions of the lifts, especially when caught at quarter squat depth or higher, the weight has to be JUMPED up, several feet in the air.  With the full lifts, this is not nearly as true, as technique improvements enable one to get under a bar pulled very low in the air, and then the squat ratio will be much more true as you have to actually SQUAT the weight back up to a standing position, and the squat becomes the limiting factor, not overall power production in the movment.


  With longer lever lengths, similar to longer legs on squats, you will actually see even more improvements on the field/court/track, with improvements in those lifts, than athletes with shorter limbs that are more "lifter" friendly.  A 30 inch femur will be able to do much more with a 300lb squat than a 10 inch femur and a 400lb squat when it comes to power and speed production.  When you have to jump the bar a mile high on a power snatch to make it, regardless of whether or not the load is equal to some number derived from a group of similarly structured individuals in a lift requiring similar heights of vertical displacement, you are producing a shit load more POWER to make that lift.

 Note that I am in no way saying you HAVE to do any olympic lifts to improve your jumping at all, they are merely a valuable tool in the tool box, but the POWER versions, especially when performed from the hang, are going to carryover very well to vertical jumping for most athletes.  The big problem with hang cleans is athletes performing a hang "swing", in which they dont vertically accelerate jack shit, they bump the bar out with the hips just long enough to swing it out and around and duck the shoulders underneath.  Said lifter will often rock back and forth, contract the traps PRIOR to the pull, and swing the bar up, with very little true vertical velocity on the bar. Most of the time, people who hang clean a lot more than they power clean fit this bill, and they wont see the performance transfer they are looking for.  Its much harder to do this with the power snatch, due to the distance the bar has to travel overhead, but it can happen on occasion.


 So yea, I wouldnt worry about any charts that say you should clean or snatch xxx lbs if you squat xxxlbs, look at the power versions as an exercise to improve POWER, and the squat as an exercise to improve absolute strength.  If you are constantly improving your power clean and power snatch, regardless of the ratio to your squat, and its in good technique, you will likely see improvements in your jumping.  If you dont, then simply do something else besides olympic variants or olympic lifts.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2011, 06:19:34 pm by LanceSTS »
Relax.

tychver

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 12:44:23 am »
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I was getting pretty smooth with my snatches at around the three month mark, but the best I ever did was 94% of bodyweight. Best clean was 88 kg at 80 kg bodyweight. Meanwhile, high school kids were putting up double bodyweight with ugly "football" cleans. I was just plain weak and very slow by comparison.


If we're honest, once you're using straps, whipping/bouncing the bar (it's significant even when you can't really see it) and taking an excessively wide catch to get as low as possible then you're really looking at a completely different movement. One that for a lot of people ends up with them lifting far more weight than they can actually strict high catch powerclean and sometimes exceeds what they could perform a full clean off the floor with. Lanky and explosive guys can often end up end up high catch powercleaning more than they can full clean. If they spent a huge amount of time working on full cleans and front squats then it would likely go up a lot and exceed their powerclean, but not by much. There are guys in weightlifting who can powerclean almost as much as they can clean and jerk. Pablo Lara did 195kg powerclean and 205 clean and jerk.

There's a lot of talk about efficiency, or being able to snatch or clean a target percentage of front and back squat weight. I guess I wasn't all that weak (back squat near 2xBW and front squat about 75-80% of that), but I was slow. My vertical at the time was 22" with the occasional 23". I am very curious to see how much better I would do now with about the same squat strength but a much higher vertical (27" usually with the occasional 28"). I just started Smolov and don't want to mess around with max snatch attempts right now, but I am very tempted. Of course I could just wait till Smolov+Feduleyev ups my squat strength and I get my vertical up another 3-4 inches and then see.


345 BS x 22" SVJ = 74 kilo snatch
405 BS x 32" SVJ = ?????

Ratio of classical lifts to squat strength varies on bodytype anyway. Think about Syzmon Kolecki doing 232.5kg at 94kg with a 240ish front squat and back squatting only a tiny bit higher, and Kakiashvilis doing 235 at 90kg and 99kg with front squat likely nearing 300kg.

If you're unexplosive at everything you're going to suck at weightlifting. If you're lanky and struggle with technique and don't really feel comfortable or explosive when performing the classic or power versions then they're probably not going to make you any more explosive anyway.

I used working up to a moderate-heavy single alternating between snatch and clean and jerk as warmup for my Smolov base cycle. Worked really well. I saw zero gains in snatch/clean and jerk and SVJ until weeks later though. Slowed down during such intense devotion to squatting.

Sorry to keep on with this, but I was banging my head against the same snatch and clean numbers for months and I would be thrilled if my current training actually improved my classic lifts. The classic lifts themselves are often pushed as ways to get stronger and more powerful, but I'm more and more convinced that for a lot of people, the classic lifts are a demonstration of strength and power and that squatting and plyometrics are superior for improving strength and power.

How could explosively lifting heavy weights not get you stronger? If you suck at the classical lifts and can't lift much realtive to your strength (related, but not interchangeable with squat numbers) then you're not going to get a great strength stimulus out of it. For almost every athlete the classical lifts aren't appropriate and the power versions are probably not going to be a fantastic max strength stiumulus but they are great for improving explosive strength as part of a program including strength work. For weightlifters it's a different story.

Given your build I would say you should use explosive/reactive squats and jump squats, short sprints and low box depth jumps to work on explosive power. Keep working on the powersnatch and powerclean and see if you can get to the point where it feels effective. Forget the classical lifts unless you really, really want to do them.

Flander

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 02:20:09 am »
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 Note that I am in no way saying you HAVE to do any olympic lifts to improve your jumping at all, they are merely a valuable tool in the tool box, but the POWER versions, especially when performed from the hang, are going to carryover very well to vertical jumping for most athletes.  The big problem with hang cleans is athletes performing a hang "swing", in which they dont vertically accelerate jack shit, they bump the bar out with the hips just long enough to swing it out and around and duck the shoulders underneath.  Said lifter will often rock back and forth, contract the traps PRIOR to the pull, and swing the bar up, with very little true vertical velocity on the bar. Most of the time, people who hang clean a lot more than they power clean fit this bill, and they wont see the performance transfer they are looking for.  Its much harder to do this with the power snatch, due to the distance the bar has to travel overhead, but it can happen on occasion.


I just felt like you described me Lance. My hang is better than my lift from the floor and my snatch is no where near. I contract my traps before lifting as well.

Example:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA</a>

Do I need to change it to get a better performance transfer?

LanceSTS

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 02:28:33 am »
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 Note that I am in no way saying you HAVE to do any olympic lifts to improve your jumping at all, they are merely a valuable tool in the tool box, but the POWER versions, especially when performed from the hang, are going to carryover very well to vertical jumping for most athletes.  The big problem with hang cleans is athletes performing a hang "swing", in which they dont vertically accelerate jack shit, they bump the bar out with the hips just long enough to swing it out and around and duck the shoulders underneath.  Said lifter will often rock back and forth, contract the traps PRIOR to the pull, and swing the bar up, with very little true vertical velocity on the bar. Most of the time, people who hang clean a lot more than they power clean fit this bill, and they wont see the performance transfer they are looking for.  Its much harder to do this with the power snatch, due to the distance the bar has to travel overhead, but it can happen on occasion.


I just felt like you described me Lance. My hang is better than my lift from the floor and my snatch is no where near. I contract my traps before lifting as well.

Example:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA</a>

Do I need to change it to get a better performance transfer?

nope, i would change the contracting your traps first, but you are not doing what I was referring to AT ALL, you are jumping the weight vertically up to your shoulders, like it should be done.
Relax.

Flander

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 02:31:28 am »
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 Note that I am in no way saying you HAVE to do any olympic lifts to improve your jumping at all, they are merely a valuable tool in the tool box, but the POWER versions, especially when performed from the hang, are going to carryover very well to vertical jumping for most athletes.  The big problem with hang cleans is athletes performing a hang "swing", in which they dont vertically accelerate jack shit, they bump the bar out with the hips just long enough to swing it out and around and duck the shoulders underneath.  Said lifter will often rock back and forth, contract the traps PRIOR to the pull, and swing the bar up, with very little true vertical velocity on the bar. Most of the time, people who hang clean a lot more than they power clean fit this bill, and they wont see the performance transfer they are looking for.  Its much harder to do this with the power snatch, due to the distance the bar has to travel overhead, but it can happen on occasion.


I just felt like you described me Lance. My hang is better than my lift from the floor and my snatch is no where near. I contract my traps before lifting as well.

Example:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZ89_QzDzA</a>

Do I need to change it to get a better performance transfer?

nope, i would change the contracting your traps first, but you are not doing what I was referring to AT ALL, you are jumping the weight vertically up to your shoulders, like it should be done.

Nice. Thanks man. Ill look into the not contracting the traps.

Sorry for the highjack Gary. Just needed to get that cleared up.

steven-miller

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Re: Vert Improvement = Clean/Snatch/Jerk Improvement
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 07:19:33 am »
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I used working up to a moderate-heavy single alternating between snatch and clean and jerk as warmup for my Smolov base cycle. Worked really well. I saw zero gains in snatch/clean and jerk and SVJ until weeks later though. Slowed down during such intense devotion to squatting.

How much did you improve your squat during Smolov and how much did your snatch / clean and SVJ improve after? Did you practice SVJ at all?