Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Gary on October 03, 2011, 10:10:22 pm
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Linear progression on a Texas Method set up to get my detrained ass back to my old levels. Consuming mass quantities because I have discovered that my strength levels are directly tied to what I weigh.
My question is on what to do on my light days. I was thinking front squat instead of back squat and only as heavy as allows me to maintain perfect form.
But what about an explosive movement? I am not built for Olympic style weightlifting and I really don't know how effective that stuff is for me. That's why I started using jumping + bands as my power training.
I'm not even sure I should resume dedicated jump training while my strength levels are so low anyway.
Any thoughts? Maybe just do front squat with upper body press and pull?
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Linear progression on a Texas Method set up to get my detrained ass back to my old levels. Consuming mass quantities because I have discovered that my strength levels are directly tied to what I weigh.
You "discovered" that only recently?
My question is on what to do on my light days. I was thinking front squat instead of back squat and only as heavy as allows me to maintain perfect form.
But what about an explosive movement? I am not built for Olympic style weightlifting and I really don't know how effective that stuff is for me. That's why I started using jumping + bands as my power training.
I'm not even sure I should resume dedicated jump training while my strength levels are so low anyway.
Any thoughts? Maybe just do front squat with upper body press and pull?
Back squat on light days will probably work better if the goal is improving the squat itself. The reason is that it allows the body to do the same movement and thus maintain movement efficacy but with a weight that allows for regeneration instead of added fatigue. The front squat is a lighter movement per default, but using them on light days yields no benefits other than variety.
Regarding explosive lifts... Having bad levers for olympic lifting does not mean that it is not a good way to train. It does not matter that you might not put up the numbers of a competitive weightlifter, but making progress in powersnatch and powerclean will have a decent carryover to jumping up to a certain point.
Post your TM template please.
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I was under the impression that I could get a lot stronger at given bodyweights. I've been corrected of that notion. I was hoping that I didn't really have to get up to 200 lbs to be as strong as I wanted (200 kilo high bar squat), but it looks like that's exactly where I need to go.
Back squat, high bar x 5 x 3-6
Bench Press x 5 x 3-5
Chin Up or Pull Up ladders
Light back squat (or front squat) x 3 x 5-8 w/ ~60-65% for speed and recovery
Press x 5 x 3
Pull Up or Chin Up ladders
Back Squat, high bar to heavy single
Bench Press to heavy single
Deadlift to heavy-ish single
I usually start my sessions with clean grip snatches + clean grip overhead squats. Great for speed and flexibility. I go up to 135 these days, but at my strongest I would use 155.
I was thinking of using jumping w/ bands in lieu of snatches, cleans and jerks.
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two questions:
1. why the switch to bands? your form on the oly stuff is good, you clearly have the mobility for it (still in awe of those CG OH squats :highfive:) and, as you say, it's great for speed and mobility. jump squats are okay but i think the oly stuff is better. i'm trying to move that direction myself but my shoulder mobility and form are limiting so far.
2. on the heavy day, have you thought about doing something like MSEM instead of just the one single? adarq has an article about it, just search the forum for "maximum strength effort method".
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Jumping with bands put five inches on my vertical in under a month. Worked way better for increasing my speed than weightlifting ever did.
I'm far from an expert on this, but from what I can tell weightlifting is more a way to demonstrate existing strength and speed than it is to build it. I bring up my shitty build for weightlifting because I suspect that people who are built to move more weight with the clean and snatch are likely to get more out of it than long-armed people like me. But that is only a suspicion based on observation and experience and I'm not suggesting anyone take my word for it.
But yeah, I spent a couple years trying to use weightlifting to jump higher and run faster with zero results. I then spend a few weeks jumping with bands and put inches on my vertical. But I do love weightlifting so it's hard for me to let it go entirely. I love the idea of a day with snatches, cleans, jerks and front squats. I just don't know if it would be as productive for me as jumping and sprinting.
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Just realized that I'm leaning toward Old School Westside...
Repetition Day for mass
Dynamic Day for recovery and speed
Maximal Effort Day for strength
At least for lower body. Sets of five on Monday for volume. Lighter squats on Wednesday to allow for recovery and to move quickly. Then very low volume and high intensity on Friday.
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Jumping with bands put five inches on my vertical in under a month. Worked way better for increasing my speed than weightlifting ever did.
I'm far from an expert on this, but from what I can tell weightlifting is more a way to demonstrate existing strength and speed than it is to build it. I bring up my shitty build for weightlifting because I suspect that people who are built to move more weight with the clean and snatch are likely to get more out of it than long-armed people like me. But that is only a suspicion based on observation and experience and I'm not suggesting anyone take my word for it.
But yeah, I spent a couple years trying to use weightlifting to jump higher and run faster with zero results. I then spend a few weeks jumping with bands and put inches on my vertical. But I do love weightlifting so it's hard for me to let it go entirely. I love the idea of a day with snatches, cleans, jerks and front squats. I just don't know if it would be as productive for me as jumping and sprinting.
interesting, thanks for the thoughts. i'm pretty sure others on here have had similar experiences with jump squats vs. oly variations (kingfish comes to mind).
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What was your best powersnatch back then Gary and at what bodyweight was that?
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I think if you had such great success with jumping + bands you should probably try that again. That would only be logical to do. But there might be other reasons for this success that are not related to that method itself. I guess the only way to find out is to use the power jumper and see if it works again.
I think powersnatches work well to enhance SVJ. I think jumpsquats are by far the inferior solution but there might be ways to address some of the problems with them. In the way they are generally used I think their implementation is problematic though. That is because most don't use tools to measure progress with them and don't have an idea of how to program jumpsquats. This makes it a hit or miss solution largely depended on chance. They can work, but can also do nothing for you at all. Powersnatches can be programmed similarly to other lifts and progress can be measured a lot easier.
But yeah, try the power jumper if it worked well before. I am just saying that it might not lead to success this time. Still, best of luck and report how it goes.
TM is looking good btw. I would switch focus from bench-press to press every other week though. And you would need to be clever about implementing the explosive stuff in there.
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I think if you had such great success with jumping + bands you should probably try that again. That would only be logical to do. But there might be other reasons for this success that are not related to that method itself. I guess the only way to find out is to use the power jumper and see if it works again.
I think powersnatches work well to enhance SVJ. I think jumpsquats are by far the inferior solution but there might be ways to address some of the problems with them. In the way they are generally used I think their implementation is problematic though. That is because most don't use tools to measure progress with them and don't have an idea of how to program jumpsquats. This makes it a hit or miss solution largely depended on chance. They can work, but can also do nothing for you at all. Powersnatches can be programmed similarly to other lifts and progress can be measured a lot easier.
But yeah, try the power jumper if it worked well before. I am just saying that it might not lead to success this time. Still, best of luck and report how it goes.
TM is looking good btw. I would switch focus from bench-press to press every other week though. And you would need to be clever about implementing the explosive stuff in there.
Other reasons indeed! This is the reason for my posting. I know I suck for WL, but the bands might have addressed a need I had at the time that no longer exists. I'd spent years doing the kind of volume work that kills speed while upping mass and slow strength. I gained half of my added inches in the first session with the bands. They obviously turned on something that had been turned off. Diminishing returns after that.
Hard to say what to do, but thanks for the input. I train in a couple of hours and will report back.
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Just realized that I'm leaning toward Old School Westside...
Repetition Day for mass
Dynamic Day for recovery and speed
Maximal Effort Day for strength
At least for lower body. Sets of five on Monday for volume. Lighter squats on Wednesday to allow for recovery and to move quickly. Then very low volume and high intensity on Friday.
That's not old school Westide :P That's old school Russian concurrent training. If you're rotating exercises/workout styles then it's concurrent/conjugate. Louie and the WSB crew have got English speaking to associate any type of concurrent/conjugate training with Westside when really it's less like Westside and more like the original inspiration for Westside.
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If you don't feel comfortable and explosive in powersnatch/powerclean don't use it.
Jump squats, reactive squats, paused explosive squats, explosive single leg weighted work, depth jumps, drop jumps.
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If you don't feel comfortable and explosive in powersnatch/powerclean don't use it.
Do you think he would be unable to get comfortable with those lifts?
I am not saying he should do those rather than the other exercises you listed. But I think you should use what you think works best and then make it happen and learn what needs to be learned.
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What was your best powersnatch back then Gary and at what bodyweight was that?
Not really sure. I weighed about 80 kilos when I was seriously pursuing higher classic lift numbers last year. I got my best snatch to 74 kilos at the time. My technique wasn't the most efficient and I was slooooooow (22" vertical) so my power snatch wasn't that much lower, maybe 70 kilos or so. I could probably power snatch 135 lbs right now without too much trouble and maybe 145.
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Whats the power jumper? What do you mean by jumps with bands? Do you mean band jump squats? I am a little confused.
IMO you CAN get strength without much weight gain. It just takes much much much longer. If your goal is a big squat at all costs then def gain the weight. But if you goal is to get faster it might not be worth it. Eating through plateaus definitely works... but if you gain a lot of weight and then plan to cut bw and maintain the strength it can be a really frustrating cycle.
If you goal is sprinting speed I would advise first doing GPP and dieting down to a really lean bf level that you think you can handle. Then start increasing strength and be somewhat liberal about eating as it will help but don't purposefully try to eat to gain mass. 5,10 even 15 pounds might be acceptable... But in my experience when guys like us (5'9-5'11) end up really strong and 240 pounds it ends up being more frustrating than anything. Additionally, injuries often happen at higher body weights, and then it gets really hard to shed the weight.
Anyway, just my two cents! In summary: Gaining strength while keeping bw in check SUCKS. But does it suck worse than dieting down and trying to maintain strength? For me the answer is no.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-xncIKcFug
Powerjumper ^^^
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Hi Raptor,
glad to see you are using the power jumper. Gary, I love jumping and sprinting with bands and find it to be very effective for both (although I don't sprint in the power jumper, I sprint against jump stretch bands for short distances).
I hope the renewed training plan goes well.
Jack
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Interesting. Not to knock the device... But can't you accomplish the same thing with a pair of jump stretch bands?
Like so?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UycTicYEI5Y
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Interesting. Not to knock the device... But can't you accomplish the same thing with a pair of jump stretch bands?
Like so?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UycTicYEI5Y
Who says you can't? I got the same recommendation when I brought up my experience on IronGarmX.net.
The PPJ is a specialty device that you can't wrap around a barbell, but you can wear the PPJ while you squat and deadlift. Jack writes about and demonstrates this.
I can't remember off the top of my head if it's cheaper just to buy the bands. It probably is. But I love my PPJ still.
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What was your best powersnatch back then Gary and at what bodyweight was that?
Not really sure. I weighed about 80 kilos when I was seriously pursuing higher classic lift numbers last year. I got my best snatch to 74 kilos at the time. My technique wasn't the most efficient and I was slooooooow (22" vertical) so my power snatch wasn't that much lower, maybe 70 kilos or so. I could probably power snatch 135 lbs right now without too much trouble and maybe 145.
Thanks for responding. My thoughts are that improving the full snatch might not be the best training tool for other athletic activities besides weightlifting. The power snatch is superior for jumping because power output is higher since you have to accelerate the bar to a greater height and catching the weight in a high position can supposedly act similarly to performing weighted plyometrics.
IMO there is no recipe against being slow except to get stronger and train explosively with exercises such as the powersnatch. Performing jumps and planning for them in your training schedule (meaning: program them!) is terribly important as well if increasing jumping is the goal. I see nothing wrong with including bands or weight vests for jump training but would suggest that this should be done supplementary to one or two explosive lifts. So you could perform weighted jumps or jumps with bands together with powersnatches on one day. On another day you would do powercleans and sets of unweighted jumps.
The reason is, that I see training with bands or powerjumper much more like real jump training in comparison to general training for explosiveness. Obviously there is no clear cut line separating the two but in terms of similarity (of speed and movement) this should be intuitive. On the continuum from strength to speed it would make sense for people other than beginners to include a greater variety of exercises between squats and jumps. The greater the resistance, the more similarity there is to the full squat in terms of movement speed. The lower the resistance, the closer an exercise resembles a real jump. I suggest that for people, that see no improvement of jump height following a substantial increase in the squat, other exercises should be included and improved upon beginning with those that are more on the strength side of the continuum. So for such a trainee the first thing that would need to be introduced is the powerclean. Eventually a variation of the powersnatch should be added and jumping with bands and forms of plyometric training come thereafter. Thereby the gap between the exercise that is trained and improved upon to the vertical jump becomes smaller with every addition. This would, theoretically, lead to an improvement in jump height eventually. Following the logical guideline that one should not do more than what is necessary, I oppose the trend in performance training to unsystematically throw every kind of exercise variation on a trainee in the hopes that one or the other exercise will help eventually. So in my opinion, after squats and jumps alone don't cut it anymore one would introduce the powerclean and only the powerclean, get substantially better in those and see what happens to the jump. Improvements will dry out and step by step more exercises can be introduced and some might replace others. What I wrote is hypothetical so far and should not be taken as fact. But it is at least a model that can be validated and could function as a guideline of exercise selection for beginner and intermediate trainees.