Adarq.org
Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Kellyb on November 27, 2010, 02:42:46 pm
-
Some of you that follow me know I don't try to jam the O-lifts down peoples throat but done correctly the hang snatch (or clean) is surely an easy way to self monitor and increase RFD and strength speed specific to the VJ over time:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/236664/Canavan-et-al-1996-Kinematic-and-Kinetic-relationships-between-an-olympic-style-lift-and-the-vertical-jump
A friend of mine did some research on a masters thesis several years back and the high hang snatch actually came out ahead of the depth jump and loaded jump squat as far as EMG specifity to the VJ.
I like the hang versions of the snatch and clean. Not that they're necessary, but they're relatively easy to learn, easy to implement, and also provide a great potentiation exercise. The best thing about them compared to a jump squat is they're much easier (and I think funner) to monitor than a jump squat because the weight's either getting heavier or it's not...you have something more tangible to shoot for. They also help sports specific upper body strength as it relates to rebounding and such. I like to have people alternate a set of O lifts with a set of plyometric variation like depth jumps, tuck jumps, etc.
Want a simple formula to shoot for as it relates to gains on the lifts for overall athletic success? Add your bench press, midstance legal squat, hang snatch, and hang clean together then divide by your bodyweight. The number to shoot for is 6. If you can hit that chances are you're gonna be one explosive m'fer. I learned that formula from a throwers coach years ago. His wife IIRC was a bobsled competitor and former college basketball player. Acording to my notes here he said that in college basketball she ran her butt off for 4 years and ran a 5.1 40 at 208lbs when she left basketball. Two years of weight training later she weighed 212 and ran a 4.7 and improved her vertical 6 inches without running or jumping in training.
In 1985 her bodyweight to strength ratio on the 4 lifts was just below 3.00. In 1987 it rose to 5.33 and she became a different athlete.
I had a guy a few years back really dedicate himself to that formula after I discussed it with him. His main focus was getting bigger and more muscular the explosive gains were secondary. I trained him for a while and got him started and he kinda took things on his own with occassional input from me and over a span of a couple of years went from 155 to 190 lbs and increased his vert from the mid 20's up to 39 inches and all he really did was throw in some depth jumps occassionally.
-
Do you see hang cleans and hang snatches being possible in a gym where you're not allowed to throw the barbell in case of a missed lift (commercial gym basically)?
-
Yeah sure. If you're big enough to pick the weights up you're big enough to bring them down gently. :) I guess it depends on how you were taught. I've done the hang lifts off and on for 12 years and never dropped a weight yet, but I taught myself how to do them and when I originally learned I didn't know you were supposed to drop the weight so it's always felt unnatural for me to do so.
Also for anyone that wants to learn the lifts both the snatch and clean are basically just jumps with the weight in your hand. To learn the clean start off with doing a jump with the weight in your hand starting from the shrug (hang) position. Then add a powerful shrug to the jump just as you extend up on your toes. Then do a jump with a shrug then drive your elbows forward as the weight clears your lower chest.
To learn the snatch first learn how to do an overhead squat then put that together with the same jump shrug as the clean but use a wider grip. If you concentrate on using the same lower body mechanics as a jump that tends to eliminate most common errors.
-
A friend of mine did some research on a masters thesis several years back and the high hang snatch actually came out ahead of the depth jump and loaded jump squat as far as EMG specifity to the VJ.
is that in that study you linked? I'm going to check it out later.
Want a simple formula to shoot for as it relates to gains on the lifts for overall athletic success? Add your bench press, midstance legal squat, hang snatch, and hang clean together then divide by your bodyweight. The number to shoot for is 6. If you can hit that chances are you're gonna be one explosive m'fer. I learned that formula from a throwers coach years ago. His wife IIRC was a bobsled competitor and former college basketball player. Acording to my notes here he said that in college basketball she ran her butt off for 4 years and ran a 5.1 40 at 208lbs when she left basketball. Two years of weight training later she weighed 212 and ran a 4.7 and improved her vertical 6 inches without running or jumping in training.
In 1985 her bodyweight to strength ratio on the 4 lifts was just below 3.00. In 1987 it rose to 5.33 and she became a different athlete.
I had a guy a few years back really dedicate himself to that formula after I discussed it with him. His main focus was getting bigger and more muscular the explosive gains were secondary. I trained him for a while and got him started and he kinda took things on his own with occassional input from me and over a span of a couple of years went from 155 to 190 lbs and increased his vert from the mid 20's up to 39 inches and all he really did was throw in some depth jumps occassionally.
nice data & formula.
here's a nice vid by lance on jump snatch, a quick progression, stuckintheair surprised me with his hang snatch form, learned it very good from this video & he's only 14, anyone can do it :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTTmPtFIn-4
He's also a big proponent of hang snatch/hang jump snatch and it's correlation to vj.
peace
-
Do you see hang cleans and hang snatches being possible in a gym where you're not allowed to throw the barbell in case of a missed lift (commercial gym basically)?
I agree with Kelly, but would want to add that having the possibility to drop a weight is really beneficial. Just for mental reasons alone one will be able to increase work weights a lot more aggressively since you won't have to fear to get thrown out of the gym for making noise or destroying equipment (or frightening other people and other silly bullshit like that :P).
here's a nice vid by lance on jump snatch, a quick progression, stuckintheair surprised me with his hang snatch form, learned it very good from this video & he's only 14, anyone can do it :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTTmPtFIn-4
He's also a big proponent of hang snatch/hang jump snatch and it's correlation to vj.
peace
Lance does a really good job on describing the lift and I agree very much on the statement that pretty much anyone can learn how to do a hang snatch or hang clean if instructed properly.
-
Adarqui, no that study is different, but similar info. I don't think my friends work ever got published but I remember him sending me the files and it was very interesting. Thanks for posting that video that's pretty much the same way I teach them.
For guys that can't drop the weight Lance demonstrates how to do them lowering the weight back to the hang position between reps:
http://www.youtube.com/v/W5jH1zb8cts&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3
Straps are also worthwhile but be careful using them with the clean because they can tear your wrists up on the catch.
-
U must, however keep in mind that you're talking about standing VJ..
-
U must, however keep in mind that you're talking about standing VJ..
That's why you just add some plyos. The only primary difference between the standing bilateral vert and running are the activity of the plantar flexors and eccentric contraction in the plant that occurs in the quadriceps, both of which can easily be addressed thru an exercise like depth jumps. The olifts also do a helluva job of potentiating the plyos which is why I like to have people do a set of plyos in between sets of the o-lifts.
-
U must, however keep in mind that you're talking about standing VJ..
That's why you just add some plyos. The only primary difference between the standing bilateral vert and running are the activity of the plantar flexors and eccentric contraction in the plant that occurs in the quadriceps, both of which can easily be addressed thru an exercise like depth jumps. The olifts also do a helluva job of potentiating the plyos which is why I like to have people do a set of plyos in between sets of the o-lifts.
Yeah I absolutely agree with this. When you separate the mechanics of the jump, it's pretty much the calves and quads "breaking" the momentum and the posterior chain (and sometimes the quads to a great extent in some people) providing the power to get up. In a way, I think bad posterior chain strength wrecks the amortization phase as well, since, at least in my mind, the body will compensate into trying to use the quads more which in return means they will bend more in the amortization phase (in order to load more and generate more concentric strength) which in return overloads them too much and compromises body position and de-activates the posterior chain.
They're all linked and with things like power snatches and pure hip power movements (more or less, there is "some" quad contribution probably, but you get the idea) you're also teaching the body "hey, use the hip extension more". With depth jumps, you might be going even deeper into the problems you already have if you're quad dominant.
That's why I still think depth drops actually are better than depth jumps... you can drop from higher altitudes and only focus on the eccentric part, which is (to me at least) what the focus should be in the first place in terms of plyos (yes yes there are exceptions, but I still maintain this thought).
-
Straps are also worthwhile but be careful using them with the clean because they can tear your wrists up on the catch.
Yeah straps and powercleans are definitely not a good idea. Even worse for cleans. Too much risk of hurting your elbows and wrists. Just don't do it. This guy can tell you why:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV1_Od6kCWg
-
^.. just suck it up and get gorilla hands..
or you can just stay with loaded jump squats (although not as cool as a well executed snatch). not everything needs to be measureable anyway. i use the jump squats for rhythm - quick and effortless transitions.. i do max jumps with the vertec. that 100% specific and measureable. ;D
-
Yes but you can execute what you're saying while still being quad dominant. In the snatches, you're going to do them only if you use your hips well.
So they're a good way to get out of quad dominance I guess.
-
Very nice thread, improvements in the hang snatch have always correlated really well for us with both running and standing jumps. Some really good ideas and info in here, thanks for posting it Kellyb.
-
Next question is how to implement them? Simple. Do them anytime you'd do jump squats. Do them anytime you work your lower body. As long as you keep the reps between 1-5 and keep your form good they're hard to screw up and you'll make progress. Typical rep schemes might include 4 x 3, 4 x 2, 5 x 1. Lots of o lifters really don't even count sets they just do them and work up to a daily single then take a bit of weight off and knock out a few more sets. I know some track coaches like 8-10 x 1. Doesn't matter really. If you stall out for more than 2 workouts in a row do a deload. Go down in weight 10% and keep the reps submaximal. For example if you're at 100 lbs x 3 reps and stall out there drop the weight down to 90 lbs x 3 reps and work your way back up....90 lbs x 3 one workout, 95 x 3 the next, 100 x 3 the next and now you're ready to go up again.
How often to do them? Two days per week per lift is fine but I've seen people make good gains doing the hang snatch oe day during the week and hang clean on another. For beginners doing somethig like a basic 3 day per week whole body template I've seen good results doing either the snatch or clean (one or the other) every other workout only.
The tried and true recommendation is to do them anytime you work lower body days and do them early on in the workout but personally I like doing them on upper body days and I do them very last in the workout, but I have significant injury issues and it takes me an entire workout to fully warmup and feel ready to go. Throughout my workout I stretch and do dynamic stuff in between sets and finally at the end I'm ready to go. Bottom line is just make sure your lower body is relatively fresh when you do them. You want to be warmed up, but not fatigued.
-
Have you recently tested your VJ Kelly? I wonder where it is right now. What are your strength levels at the moment?
-
Naa haven't assessed it in ages. I haven't been able to jump maximally in quite a while. My knees won't let me do it. I can do submax jumps once I get really warmed up and can still get the rim pretty easy on a nice smooth submax jump but anytime I apply much force to see what I can really do my joints don't tolerate it and I spend the next few days paying for it
-
Why? I mean, you had bad form on squats and all that when you were younger or to what do you attribute that? It could help younger people learn from you and prevent the same from happening to them.
-
Nothing specific but most people who played as much basketball and other sports as I did along with extreme training will have some degree of damage at my current age. For years I played on concrete courts and that probably has a lot to do with it. I've never had a single acute injury that kept me out of action - I've had tendonitis and an occassional ankle sprain but no ligament tears, muscle tears or anything like that..just general wear, tear, and age. The training I consider the least of the culprits...the only thing I've done trainingwise that I thought that jacked me up pretty good was some of the DB hammer stuff like REA squats.
I also had some degree of rheumatoid arthritis, which is an immune disease where your immune system attacks the joints. Mine was fairly mild as far as that goes and just caused fatigue, general muscle stiffness, and chronic pain in my hands, fingers, toes, and ankles. It's pretty much gone now but I imagine it did/does spill over and affect the larger joints to some extent even if it didn't cause me pain. I'm not sure much my knee and hip issues are due to that and how much is due to just general wear and tear. I can still sprint without problems but there's just too much ground reaction force in the jumps and I can't bend my knees enough at high speed to get a 100% effort in without jacking myself up.
-
Nothing specific but most people who played as much basketball and other sports as I did along with extreme training will have some degree of damage at my current age. For years I played on concrete courts and that probably has a lot to do with it. I've never had a single acute injury that kept me out of action - I've had tendonitis and an occassional ankle sprain but no ligament tears, muscle tears or anything like that..just general wear, tear, and age. The training I consider the least of the culprits...the only thing I've done trainingwise that I thought that jacked me up pretty good was some of the DB hammer stuff like REA squats.
I also had some degree of rheumatoid arthritis, which is an immune disease where your immune system attacks the joints. Mine was fairly mild as far as that goes and just caused fatigue, general muscle stiffness, and chronic pain in my hands, fingers, toes, and ankles. It's pretty much gone now but I imagine it did/does spill over and affect the larger joints to some extent even if it didn't cause me pain. I'm not sure much my knee and hip issues are due to that and how much is due to just general wear and tear. I can still sprint without problems but there's just too much ground reaction force in the jumps and I can't bend my knees enough at high speed to get a 100% effort in without jacking myself up.
I am with you 100% on this Kelly. Too much basketball on hard courts, lots of intense training, throw in age related wear and tear and maximal jumping just becomes completely out of the question unless you are happy to hobble around for a few days.
Being able to dunk a basketball was something that I worked my ass off for nearly 2 years to achieve. It is something I am immensley proud off. It is also something that I ask myself on a regular basis - was it worth it? The answer depends on how sore my knees are that day.
-
Nothing specific but most people who played as much basketball and other sports as I did along with extreme training will have some degree of damage at my current age. For years I played on concrete courts and that probably has a lot to do with it. I've never had a single acute injury that kept me out of action - I've had tendonitis and an occassional ankle sprain but no ligament tears, muscle tears or anything like that..just general wear, tear, and age. The training I consider the least of the culprits...the only thing I've done trainingwise that I thought that jacked me up pretty good was some of the DB hammer stuff like REA squats.
I also had some degree of rheumatoid arthritis, which is an immune disease where your immune system attacks the joints. Mine was fairly mild as far as that goes and just caused fatigue, general muscle stiffness, and chronic pain in my hands, fingers, toes, and ankles. It's pretty much gone now but I imagine it did/does spill over and affect the larger joints to some extent even if it didn't cause me pain. I'm not sure much my knee and hip issues are due to that and how much is due to just general wear and tear. I can still sprint without problems but there's just too much ground reaction force in the jumps and I can't bend my knees enough at high speed to get a 100% effort in without jacking myself up.
What say you, adarq?
-
Nothing specific but most people who played as much basketball and other sports as I did along with extreme training will have some degree of damage at my current age. For years I played on concrete courts and that probably has a lot to do with it. I've never had a single acute injury that kept me out of action - I've had tendonitis and an occassional ankle sprain but no ligament tears, muscle tears or anything like that..just general wear, tear, and age. The training I consider the least of the culprits...the only thing I've done trainingwise that I thought that jacked me up pretty good was some of the DB hammer stuff like REA squats.
I also had some degree of rheumatoid arthritis, which is an immune disease where your immune system attacks the joints. Mine was fairly mild as far as that goes and just caused fatigue, general muscle stiffness, and chronic pain in my hands, fingers, toes, and ankles. It's pretty much gone now but I imagine it did/does spill over and affect the larger joints to some extent even if it didn't cause me pain. I'm not sure much my knee and hip issues are due to that and how much is due to just general wear and tear. I can still sprint without problems but there's just too much ground reaction force in the jumps and I can't bend my knees enough at high speed to get a 100% effort in without jacking myself up.
What say you, adarq?
how intense did he go? what kind of style did he use? inno recommends 30-70% of 1RM from what I remember.. i don't think people should go up much over 50%.. Alot of people on the db forum also do REA squats DEEP.. I think going heavy + DEEP REA is risky, but half squat REA should be fine, at ~30-50%, no more than that.
I remember KB posted in db forum that he attributed alot of knee issues to front squatting, but front squatting was very effective at improving his SVJ, something along those lines:
My front squats have always been painful and never been very good in comparison to back squat because of my longer femurs, but I've done around 275 x 1 at around 160. The combination of front squats and power snatches made a very noticeable and immediate impact on my standing 2 handed jump with a basketball in hand. The effect was immediate and seemed to effect that style of jump more than any other. However, I blame the front squats on instigating the quad tendonitis I eventually developed in both knees. If you have posterior tilt or naturally weak hamstrings I'd stay away from front squats as they effectively take the hamstrings nearly completely out of the movement.
-
It's interesting if these are the only limiting factors or is the neurochemistry worse with age (and with age I mean 30 to 40 years old) "much" worse than in the 20-30s (by that I mean the speed of the signal and it's intensity towards the muscles).
Do you have the same "rage" and "ferociousness" when jumping (if you weren't limited by the bones/joints etc) as in the past? The same "rate coding" if you will?
-
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/mentallyjacked.html (http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/mentallyjacked.html)
-
It's interesting if these are the only limiting factors or is the neurochemistry worse with age (and with age I mean 30 to 40 years old) "much" worse than in the 20-30s (by that I mean the speed of the signal and it's intensity towards the muscles).
Do you have the same "rage" and "ferociousness" when jumping (if you weren't limited by the bones/joints etc) as in the past? The same "rate coding" if you will?
Raptor,
I have lost very little of that. In fact I was running sprints a few weeks ago and my 10 and 20 yard sprints were about as fast as ever. The main thing I notice with the age is a loss of testosterone which leads to a loss of muscle mass which leads to some loss of power in some muscle groups. That and now it takes forever to warm up and get the blood flowing. My body comp and strength aren't quite what they were even under the same training and diet. I used to have veins everywhere and stayed ripped to shreds now I look like a normal untrained thin guy.
Regarding the reactive squats, I never did them deep but did go up to around 40-50% with them. They're the one exercise I felt like I tore myself up on acutely. I like regular jump squats both with pauses and without I just don't think there are many advantages to rapid loaded eccentrics into a squatting position with any type of load. If you keep them light and pay strict attention to form you'll probably be alright though. Front squats made my quads grow so fast they got tighter than a drum and I wasn't doing enough quad stretching and that seemed to promote tendonitis - they definitely worked though.
-
Well since I look like a normal untrained thin guy with both training and nutrition up to par, I guess the only way to get ripped and powerful (while still being a nerdy guy) is to get into roids! I can see it clearly now, it's like a vision! :pissed:
I can only imagine the skinny-fatness of me when I get older.
-
Well since I look like a normal untrained thin guy with both training and nutrition up to par, I guess the only way to get ripped and powerful (while still being a nerdy guy) is to get into roids! I can see it clearly now, it's like a vision! :pissed:
I can only imagine the skinny-fatness of me when I get older.
why don't you do more interval sprints/interval fitness work first.
it's not a good sign when this is said:
"Yeah since running two times down the court makes me wanna go home and sleep... ninja" -- raptor
why would your body composition improve greatly if on your upper body days you normally just go in and lift weights and thats it? same for lower body days pretty much, except you add some reactive work/jumps.. that's not alot of calories burned nor is it a good way to improve overall fitness/work capacity.
i'd fix that first before theoretically resorting to roids.
pc
-
true that adarq, same thing i just said in my journal
Point being, IMO most people that do nothing besides lift and the low volume power oriented jump work will be in trouble without some kind of general fitness work (pickup,cardio,dribbling,walking,swimming,anything). The heart is the most important muscle. Low work capacity not good for vert training or life in general(neither is being overweight)..
-
true that adarq, same thing i just said in my journal
Point being, IMO most people that do nothing besides lift and the low volume power oriented jump work will be in trouble without some kind of general fitness work (pickup,cardio,dribbling,walking,swimming,anything). The heart is the most important muscle. Low work capacity not good for vert training or life in general(neither is being overweight)..
x2
-
Well to tell you the truth... because I'm afraid of cardio. Like genuinely. Two of my family "men" have died after effort... one came with his bike home and had a vein pop out in his head at 25 years old or so after effort. Another one died after he got home on his bike, was kind of tired, and the elevator was broken so he used the stairs to get home (at the 8th floor of the building) and his heart stopped and started vomiting and coughing up blood and pink foam (sign of pulmonary edema) - and he died basically of a heart attack after effort.
So I keep that in mind and whenever my heart rate goes up at pretty much anything, these things keep coming up in my head and I get scared and my heart rate goes even higher and my fatigue increases a lot in just a few seconds. Then I'm done.
-
Well to tell you the truth... because I'm afraid of cardio. Like genuinely. Two of my family "men" have died after effort... one came with his bike home and had a vein pop out in his head at 25 years old or so after effort. Another one died after he got home on his bike, was kind of tired, and the elevator was broken so he used the stairs to get home (at the 8th floor of the building) and his heart stopped and started vomiting and coughing up blood and pink foam (sign of pulmonary edema) - and he died basically of a heart attack after effort.
So I keep that in mind and whenever my heart rate goes up at pretty much anything, these things keep coming up in my head and I get scared and my heart rate goes even higher and my fatigue increases a lot in just a few seconds. Then I'm done.
That sucks, man! But cardio doesn't necessarily have to feel like "effort" to be worthwhile. In fact, sometimes it should be really easy. You could just take a brisk walk around your neighborhood, or go hiking somewhere, or something like that. Don't think about it as focused exercise, don't try to get your heart rate up, just get out and move around a little bit.
-
Well to tell you the truth... because I'm afraid of cardio. Like genuinely. Two of my family "men" have died after effort... one came with his bike home and had a vein pop out in his head at 25 years old or so after effort. Another one died after he got home on his bike, was kind of tired, and the elevator was broken so he used the stairs to get home (at the 8th floor of the building) and his heart stopped and started vomiting and coughing up blood and pink foam (sign of pulmonary edema) - and he died basically of a heart attack after effort.
So I keep that in mind and whenever my heart rate goes up at pretty much anything, these things keep coming up in my head and I get scared and my heart rate goes even higher and my fatigue increases a lot in just a few seconds. Then I'm done.
wtf? damn..
-
Well to tell you the truth... because I'm afraid of cardio. Like genuinely. Two of my family "men" have died after effort... one came with his bike home and had a vein pop out in his head at 25 years old or so after effort. Another one died after he got home on his bike, was kind of tired, and the elevator was broken so he used the stairs to get home (at the 8th floor of the building) and his heart stopped and started vomiting and coughing up blood and pink foam (sign of pulmonary edema) - and he died basically of a heart attack after effort.
So I keep that in mind and whenever my heart rate goes up at pretty much anything, these things keep coming up in my head and I get scared and my heart rate goes even higher and my fatigue increases a lot in just a few seconds. Then I'm done.
wtf? damn..
Well yeah... that's why I'm really terrorized by effort and the heart rate going up... that's why my bodyfat is where it is and my fitness is where it is.