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Performance Area => Strength, Power, Reactivity, & Speed Discussion => Topic started by: Dreyth on March 23, 2012, 04:47:02 pm
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I'm doing RDL's right now to hit my hams harder and also because I feel that there's (currently) a less injury risk in doing them.
But I want a great, compound exercise that I'll be doing for years on end like the squat... I can't see myself doing 455lb RDL's in the future. I mean how safe is it to unrack the bar, walk backwards with it in ur hand, and then probably have shaky form doing RDL's? Not only that, but I don't even know if I'm hitting the same depth every time. There isn't as much consistency.
Do you guys recommend I just deadlift instead? I kinda miss doing it too...
I feel like there's a stigma to deadlifting around here.
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I took the liberty to read your journal. If you're doing 5/3/1 which normally has deadlifts in it, then why not? Just finish the cycle you're on and then start the new cycle again with deadlifts instead of romanian deadlifts.
What was your concern with deadlifts if you didn't start the program with them lol?
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Well the question is - do you REALLY need to get that heavy when doing your RDLs? Use them more as an assistance exercise in the higher rep ranges.
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What was your concern with deadlifts if you didn't start the program with them lol?
Deadlifts have been given a bad rep for injuries lol... but then again, everytime I see people do them on youtube they do it with horrible form.
Well the question is - do you REALLY need to get that heavy when doing your RDLs? Use them more as an assistance exercise in the higher rep ranges.
Yes I do! I need to continue improving my hamstring strength, not just get them to a certain point and stop. Since I've neglected them for so long, I've been hit with jumper's knee (along with other reasons... basically quad-dominance ruined me).
I'm switching to regular deads next week.
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What was your concern with deadlifts if you didn't start the program with them lol?
Deadlifts have been given a bad rep for injuries lol... but then again, everytime I see people do them on youtube they do it with horrible form.
Well the question is - do you REALLY need to get that heavy when doing your RDLs? Use them more as an assistance exercise in the higher rep ranges.
Yes I do! I need to continue improving my hamstring strength, not just get them to a certain point and stop. Since I've neglected them for so long, I've been hit with jumper's knee (along with other reasons... basically quad-dominance ruined me).
Haven't read your journal, but have you been doing GHRs? I noticed an immediate improvement in how my knee felt after getting them in for a few sessions. Nowadays I have no knee pain from ME jumping/sprinting barefoot. Before I really had to ice everyday, lol.
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I was about to suggest GHRs but they're the reason I messed up my right knee. Sure he was messed up to begin with but to do natural glute ham raises, even on top of 2 or 3 folded aerobic mats was overkill for my knee. The knee cap gets caught in one position and gets compressed when you do them so... I would reccomend against them. If you have a machine though, I have no idea how that feels/works.
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FWIW , i vote for sticking with RDLs too:
Full deadlifts are a 'better' exercise as it has deeper ROM and stimulates more muscles, but you already have that covered with your deep squats. I don't know how much you can stimulate your hamstrings with your squats , but for me RDLs are an excellent choice to keep the squat-caused quadzillas balanced. In deadlifts you go too heavy and that may cause form and muscle targeting alterations ( using more lower back etc ), RDLs have a much more strict form and muscle targeting inherently.
I am with raptor , keep RDLs in using higher reps , sth like 3x6-8. You might need straps though as they get too heavy , i am currently limited by my grip strength in RDLs.
About ROM , it's easy to track using how low you go beyond knees, shouldn't be more than a couple of inches anyway so keep your form tight , keep the reversing point steady and there you are.
About setup , i use something different than you: i load the bar at the ground , make the 1st rep a regular deadlift and then carry on with the RDL reps , very easy and convenient.
Just my 2 cents.
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Haven't read your journal, but have you been doing GHRs? I noticed an immediate improvement in how my knee felt after getting them in for a few sessions. Nowadays I have no knee pain from ME jumping/sprinting barefoot. Before I really had to ice everyday, lol.
Yea I don't have a GHR machine/set up at my gym so I do natural GHR's. I notice my knee feels immediately better after doing about 3 sets of them supersetted with quad stretches. Plus I foam roll before and after doing them. Definitely notice an immediate difference.
I was about to suggest GHRs but they're the reason I messed up my right knee. Sure he was messed up to begin with but to do natural glute ham raises, even on top of 2 or 3 folded aerobic mats was overkill for my knee. The knee cap gets caught in one position and gets compressed when you do them so... I would reccomend against them. If you have a machine though, I have no idea how that feels/works.
I feel comfortable doing natural GHR's. Maybe my mats have less friction than yours, because my knees are never a concern doing them. If they are in the future, I can use shorter mats that will let my knees track off the edge of the mats and then the knee caps are free to move.
Wish I could try out a GHR machine though. I can't even do one rep with a natural GHR. ALMOST up to doing a full negative with no faceplant!
I don't know how much you can stimulate your hamstrings with your squats
Almost not at all lol (for me). Maybe they do get stimulated, but not even close to the amount my quads and glutes do.
I am with raptor , keep RDLs in using higher reps , sth like 3x6-8.
The thing is, I want to do the 5/3/1 program as planned. I read the entire book (~100 pages) the night I got it and I don't want to change anything. Basically, the bottom line is this:
1 year ago I was benching 210x5. 1 month ago, I was benching 210x5.
It's time for slow, consistent gains that won't go away. And that's why I chose 5/3/1. Slow progression, but it will add up over time. 5/3/1 pretty much guarantees a 5lb gain every month for upper body and 5-10lbs a month for lower body. That's 60lbs on my bench press in a year, which is more than it's ever gone up (not counting noob gains my first year). And lets count it as 90lbs on my deadlift in a year, so I can go from like 350 to 430 in one year.
That's excellent progress. Once my knee heals up, I can put 90lbs on my squat in a year and go from 380 to 470 max. AND KEEP THOSE GAINS. I've made a 70lb gain in 7 weeks using a 4/7/7 rep scheme squatting 3x a week, but those gains diminished soon after. I've done smolov jr for 9 weeks and gained 80lbs off of it, but those gains diminished as well.
Time for me to just make slow, consistent progress without even having to go overboard with frequency and stuff.
About setup , i use something different than you: i load the bar at the ground , make the 1st rep a regular deadlift and then carry on with the RDL reps , very easy and convenient.
Just my 2 cents.
Oh I see... do you count that first deadlift as part of the set? Meaning 1 deadlift plus 5 rdl's equal one set of 6?
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Go low bar in the squat and see what happens with your hamstrings. You might be able to better keep the knees from going foward with a low bar squat and therefore maintain tension on your hamstrings.
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Go low bar in the squat and see what happens with your hamstrings. You might be able to better keep the knees from going foward with a low bar squat and therefore maintain tension on your hamstrings.
Sounded like a good idea but I literally can't do low bar anymore. I tried it a few weeks ago, but there is just no spot to put the bar on my back anymore. It's not that it hurts like hell (it does), but rather, anywhere that's not in my usual high bar position will slide off the back.
I'll try again though.
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I know what you mean but after a few workouts you'll find the proper spot. You will never worry about that ever again after that happens.
When I started to low bar squat I had the same issues: the bar kept on sliding on my back and my wrists were straining so hard... everything was a REAL mess. I wanted to quit more than a couple of times but sticked with it. All these issues went away after that. Now it doesn't slide at all, and my wrists are OK. You just need to find that spot and to find the proper grip on the bar (experiment with the grip width). I know people recommend a wider grip for those with tight wrists/long arms etc but I found out that a narrower grip was better, it kept my back and whole body stiffer/stabler when squatting.
And I was really exaggerating lowering the bar too much on my back, I think I'm more in a medium-to-low bar position.
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I remember I switched to a low bar squat I think 2 years ago and I liked it a lot. I don't remember why I even switched back to high bar actually.
If I can squat painlessly, even after jumping, with a low bar it'll be a god-send for me. I don't want to wait another 3-4 months before I can start increasing my vertical again.
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The reason I switched to low bar was because of my right knee. I can squat completely pain free low bar. If I use high bar, one rep is enough to mess up my knee for that day. Seriously.
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What problem did you have with your knee anyway?
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I don't know. When I get from full knee extension to about 25 degrees of flexion "something" moves on the lateral side of the knee, in that "hole" of the knee.
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I don't know. When I get from full knee extension to about 25 degrees of flexion "something" moves on the lateral side of the knee, in that "hole" of the knee.
Probably just some loose cartilage in the knee. Common with jumping athletes. Shouldn't affect your jumping or squatting ability if you're warm.
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About setup , i use something different than you: i load the bar at the ground , make the 1st rep a regular deadlift and then carry on with the RDL reps , very easy and convenient.
Just my 2 cents.
Oh I see... do you count that first deadlift as part of the set? Meaning 1 deadlift plus 5 rdl's equal one set of 6?
I missed this, jsut saw it.
I don't count the deadlift rep BUT thats because my grip can't handle what my legs can so my RDLs are submax. 7x253 is the most ive done before my girly fingers give up, but the hams/glutes aren't really challenged. If i used straps and did a true 8RM set i would count the initial 'normal' deadlift rep too.
But that's irrelevant talk anyway, if i was to do 5-3-1 i would choose regular deadlifts over RDLs too.
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Low-bar squats involve hamstrings more and I am all for them but I disagree about using them exclusively. You still need a pull in my opinion to really balance everything out as good as possible.
Other than that, deadlifts are great and I cannot think of a single reason why not to do them. RDLs have the advantage of a stretch-reflex in a potentially important ROM (of the hips) for the VJ, but I am not even sure if that has any positive effect on jumping. If you can deadlift and you want to do them, do them IMO.
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If you do RDLs do you find they give you a good lover back workout? Can you get a pump from RDLs? Also is the combination of full squats and RDLs well balanced?
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if anyone cares i've switched over to the conventional deadlift. currently my bests are 330x7 and 340x6. I will be attempting 350x5 next week.
I also do back extensions twice a week. On one day, I do 3x8 with heavier weight, and on the other day, 4x15 with lighter weight.
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if anyone cares i've switched over to the conventional deadlift. currently my bests are 330x7 and 340x6. I will be attempting 350x5 next week.
I also do back extensions twice a week. On one day, I do 3x8 with heavier weight, and on the other day, 4x15 with lighter weight.
Great!
One question: Why do you decrease reps while increasing weight?
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if anyone cares i've switched over to the conventional deadlift. currently my bests are 330x7 and 340x6. I will be attempting 350x5 next week.
I also do back extensions twice a week. On one day, I do 3x8 with heavier weight, and on the other day, 4x15 with lighter weight.
Great!
One question: Why do you decrease reps while increasing weight?
I'm doing 5/3/1. Each cycle is split up into 4 waves/weeks:
Wave 1 - 85% x 5 or more reps
Wave 2 - 90% x 3 or more reps
Wave 3 - 95% x 1 or more reps
Wave 4 - 85% x 3 (just a de-load)
For the next cycle, increase your 1RM by 10lbs on squat or dead, and 5lbs on press or bench.
The idea is to work around the same estimated max at different rep ranges, and then move up to higher weight after the cycle.
So If I do 330x5, 350x3, 360x1 this cycle,
I'll go for 340x5, 360x3, 370x1 next cycle.
So far it's been working nicely for my deadlift. I'm almost always able to hit more than the minimum number of reps. I don't have to, but I can if I want to.
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if anyone cares i've switched over to the conventional deadlift. currently my bests are 330x7 and 340x6. I will be attempting 350x5 next week.
I also do back extensions twice a week. On one day, I do 3x8 with heavier weight, and on the other day, 4x15 with lighter weight.
RDL is a great assistance exercise but it's not measurable which it seems you a realizing is a major weakness. Deadlifting may not be as specific for jumping and may be dangerous (if performed stupidly IMHO) but it's actually one of the most measurable exercises there is. In fact, it's the first test of strength our old strength coach used when evaluating athletes because it's there are no depth issues like in the squat and even with poor form is a decent indicator of whole body strength.
My only advice would be not to treat deadlifting like squat (ie with rep/set/ranges). While you can train your recovery abilities to the point where you can squat daily.... that's really asking for trouble with the deadlift. I increased my deadlift from 405 to 540 in about 6 months using heavy singles sparingly (every one to two weeks) and back off sets of RDL/Stiff legged deadlifts. Good luck.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTIdmCwAPpg
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if anyone cares i've switched over to the conventional deadlift. currently my bests are 330x7 and 340x6. I will be attempting 350x5 next week.
I also do back extensions twice a week. On one day, I do 3x8 with heavier weight, and on the other day, 4x15 with lighter weight.
RDL is a great assistance exercise but it's not measurable which it seems you a realizing is a major weakness. Deadlifting may not be as specific for jumping and may be dangerous (if performed stupidly IMHO) but it's actually one of the most measurable exercises there is. In fact, it's the first test of strength our old strength coach used when evaluating athletes because it's there are no depth issues like in the squat and even with poor form is a decent indicator of whole body strength.
My only advice would be not to treat deadlifting like squat (ie with rep/set/ranges). While you can train your recovery abilities to the point where you can squat daily.... that's really asking for trouble with the deadlift. I increased my deadlift from 405 to 540 in about 6 months using heavy singles sparingly (every one to two weeks) and back off sets of RDL/Stiff legged deadlifts. Good luck.
Thank you very much. I agree with everything in this post. In addition, I only deadlift once a week. In fact, I only do one heavy set a week. No 3x5 or anything like that, just ramping up to a top set and I still make great progress with it.
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RDLs have the advantage of a stretch-reflex in a potentially important ROM (of the hips)
Right, I think it's possible to have some intense amortizations with RDLs if you don't go too heavy and stop right before the plates hit the ground. After reading this I realize that I typically mix up RDLs, stiff legged and regular deadlifts in my dlift workouts, and sumo..i highly enjoy amortizing in this fashion during a deadlift session
The only thing that has not been mentioned is foot width. Try a closer stance, less than shoulder width, or sumo, while keeping the hips high, that would be more stiff-legged DL but it works. Even with conventinoal, you are definitely hitting your hamsrtings hard. perhaps some single leg hyperextensions or single leg light dumbell deadlifts could be another assistance exercise. RDLs are pretty heavy of a lift to be considered just an assistance exercise.
To answer your question dreyth, unracking 455 wouldn't be dangerous if your max was like 600+, but it could be if your max was like 465. I think it's a good test of will to just go for it, and not be afraid of the danger but that's just me.
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Do both.
I regularly back squat, front squat, RDL, conventional DL, sumo DL, good morning, etc.
Don't limit your exercises due to labeling.
You could do a few sets of each of these in a single workout if you really wanted.
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Do both.
I regularly back squat, front squat, RDL, conventional DL, sumo DL, good morning, etc.
Don't limit your exercises due to labeling.
You could do a few sets of each of these in a single workout if you really wanted.
How do you program your lifts? I would like to PR my squat, front squat, RDL, DL, sumo DL and good morning every week. Please show me how.
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Kind of an old post but it should be noted that at API they build there athletes almost exclusively around Romanian Dead Lift (RDL). Due to its implications in activating the gluteus /hamstrings (when done properly). Of course none of there athletes are much concerned about picking anything heavy up off the ground or having big quads. They are much more concerned with the posterior chain and it role in speed/quickness on the field of play.
I was also surprised when Tim Hightower mentioned to me that the most of the strongest guys on the team "are not ones." Meaning they aren't the starters, but backups or 2nd or 3rd team guys.
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Kind of an old post but it should be noted that at API they build there athletes almost exclusively around Romanian Dead Lift (RDL). Due to its implications in activating the gluteus /hamstrings (when done properly). Of course none of there athletes are much concerned about picking anything heavy up off the ground or having big quads. They are much more concerned with the posterior chain and it role in speed/quickness on the field of play.
I was also surprised when Tim Hightower mentioned to me that the most of the strongest guys on the team "are not ones." Meaning they aren't the starters, but backups or 2nd or 3rd team guys.
On RDLs, What sort of weights do they use? Programming and reps/sets?
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Kind of an old post but it should be noted that at API they build there athletes almost exclusively around Romanian Dead Lift (RDL). Due to its implications in activating the gluteus /hamstrings (when done properly). Of course none of there athletes are much concerned about picking anything heavy up off the ground or having big quads. They are much more concerned with the posterior chain and it role in speed/quickness on the field of play.
I was also surprised when Tim Hightower mentioned to me that the most of the strongest guys on the team "are not ones." Meaning they aren't the starters, but backups or 2nd or 3rd team guys.
On RDLs, What sort of weights do they use? Programming and reps/sets?
1-5 sets x 1-15 reps, 1-3 times per week
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I was also surprised when Tim Hightower mentioned to me that the most of the strongest guys on the team "are not ones." Meaning they aren't the starters, but backups or 2nd or 3rd team guys.
This is of course the case many times with athletic teams, the best athletes tend to be the genetically gifted elite and many of them do not have the same work ethic in the weight room of some of the less talented. They "show" their strength in the weight room better, because they practice lifting weights more.
The guys who are the strongest, work very hard so that they can actually MAKE the 2nd and 3rd teams. They make up for less gifts with raw work ethic and strength. Had they not done this, they likely wouldnt be on anyones team to begin with.
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