Author Topic: Three types of depth jumps (Read 5535 times)

Raptor · « **on:** May 17, 2011, 04:58:38 am »

OK, so I have done in my life three types of depth jumps:

DJ for max height
DJ for quickness (jump over object quickly)
DJ for length

Here they are:

MAX HEIGHT:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajdhZV2ji1U" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajdhZV2ji1U</a>

QUICKNESS:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAQ7eixrGt0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAQ7eixrGt0</a>

LENGTH:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCjM1xcYhus" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCjM1xcYhus</a>

Now the question is - have you guys used the other two types (quickness and length)?

I think the quickness variation is interesting for heavier people and for people that maybe take too long to "load" in the jumps, but at the same time it has it's disadvatages since there is a lot of hip flexion involed that "takes away" the proper hip extension. Sure, you could make it work but...

For the length DJ, I feel like the posterior chain can get more involved. The amortization phase is longer, the knee/hip bend is more pronounced, but there is a bigger "energy release" in this kind of DJ.

Now the question is - what is your experience with them?

LanceSTS · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:33:57 am »

I pretty much agree with all of that man, the dj with minimal gct focus and tuck jump or hurdle hop after is good for sprinting as well, and really trains the hip flexors explosively. There are lots of other variations such as single leg, backwards, dropping into a sprint, etc. and you can train a wide range of movements if youre careful and wise about the intensity.

Raptor · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2011, 05:57:07 am »

Yeah, in fact I was thinking about a backward depth jump where you drop backwards and jump immediately back onto the box you dropped off.

That should load the posterior chain more since the hips are the ones who need stoppage from downward movement (instead of the knees with a forward depth jump) which, in theory, should work on activating the glutes eccentrically more and also store and release energy from them better than the forward depth jump.

LanceSTS · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2011, 01:27:54 pm »

I like backwards drops and depths a LOT, the train more of the "loading" portion of the jump, while traditional train more of the top part or "finishing" portion. And yea, definitely more hip as well as calf/lower leg intensive on the backwards version, more quad intensive on the forward. Both are good, both can be used well for different weaknesses and strengths throughout the movement.

Raptor · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2011, 03:07:11 pm »

Here's a trick question:

If you have a quad dominant guy who has problems with overloading his quads on jumps that generate knee collapse (leg giving out), and you choose to train with depth jump, what kind of depth jump would you say will benefit him more (obviously doing both would be nice):

The forward DJ since he needs to make his quads learn how to absorb and release force better

OR

The backward DJ since he needs to learn to engage the hips/glutes better and take away the knee/quad overload by doing so.

LanceSTS · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2011, 09:48:31 pm »

I wouldnt use depth jumps as my first option, especially if youre referring to a single leg jump, I would use bounds, stiff leg single leg bounds (prime times)- progressed into stiff leg single leg bounds continuously on the same leg, increasing the speed of the run up as youre capable and develop.

  I dont agree that issue with your jumps is the quads, its the hamstring and glute, not being able to "lock up" hard enough to transfer that speed and momentum. It will FEEL like the quad, IF your hamstrings arent strong enough to stiffen up and transfer that horizontal momentum into vertical force. Im not pulling that out of thin air, Ive seen over and over with triple jumpers at lower levels, and high jumpers as well, though it becomes more glaringly obvious in the triple. You have to think of that plant leg as a "lever" rather than a "spring" that can be compressed downwards in a one leg jump.

  Of course the quads have to be strong and contribute a ton as well as the calves, but MOST of the time, what youre describing is a weakness of the hamstrings, specifically at high velocities. And just because someone has relatively strong or weak hamstrings in the weight room sense does not make them immune to this at all, they are put in an extended position, and forced to contract very HARD, without much shortening. That is why the primetimes and continuous stiff leg single leg bounding works so well to remedy that issue.

  If you were referring to a 2leg jump I would do things completely different, but im assuming youre talking about that issue in a slj.

Raptor · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:35:25 am »

Well I haven't have this occur too much lately in the one leg jump, but it does occur in the two footed version... the quad overload there is incredible (meaning - I just overload the quads and then everything stiffens up).

I remember Kelly telling me it's a hamstring thing as well years ago, but I don't really believe that. I'd go as far as to say that my hams are incredibly strong (I could and probably can do 8+ natural glute ham raises) so if anything, then maybe yeah, they don't "activate" or whatever properly when subjected to dynamic stuff. In fact, I can even remember occurences when I could feel the ham fail in a jump (it just feels like a huge weakness under the leg and you jump 8 inches once that happens).

I'm not sure what stiff single leg bounding is though. And prime times feel so easy, like I'm doing nothing.

I assume you refer to this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7t5w0DbWE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7t5w0DbWE</a>

But yeah, my question was initially about the two footed jump, but it hinted a bit towards the one-leg version as well.

Also, why not think about the one-leg jump as a spring ? I mean, I've jumped with both a lever and spring mindset and it was OK, I think the lever thing works well with more reactive and light people, while the spring works better with strength-oriented and heavier people. I get that once you try to use ONE LEG as a spring the overload on that leg becomes incredible so you need incredible strength to prevent that leg from collapsing though.

For example, in a normal single leg bound there's compression happening and muscular power being put in there. The knee and hip joints of that leg are bent and not straight, which makes the muscle of those joints to load up quite a bit. So...

LanceSTS · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:23:57 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on May 19, 2011, 03:35:25 am

Well I haven't have this occur too much lately in the one leg jump, but it does occur in the two footed version... the quad overload there is incredible (meaning - I just overload the quads and then everything stiffens up).

I remember Kelly telling me it's a hamstring thing as well years ago, but I don't really believe that. I'd go as far as to say that my hams are incredibly strong (I could and probably can do 8+ natural glute ham raises) so if anything, then maybe yeah, they don't "activate" or whatever properly when subjected to dynamic stuff. In fact, I can even remember occurences when I could feel the ham fail in a jump (it just feels like a huge weakness under the leg and you jump 8 inches once that happens).

cool, both kelly and I are probably wrong then, and youre probably right.

I already addressed the people saying "my hamstrings are strong/arent strong because of xxxx exercise in the WEIGHT ROOM. ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, and different body types/levers are going to have an easier time with natural glute hams/glute hams anyway. But when you add in the element of SPEED, and the hamstring has to contract both isometrically against it and concentricallly, things change.

Also, wouldnt you say that you can jump better than an average person off one leg? I wonder if the fact that your hamstrings are stronger than an AVERAGE persons has anything to do with it. People are funny, they dont realize that what they are already GOOD at , might need to improve MORE, to keep improving their craft.

Quote

I'm not sure what stiff single leg bounding is though. And prime times feel so easy, like I'm doing nothing.

I assume you refer to this:

That is the BEGINNING progression, and if its easy, use a run in before you do it, the more speed you use, the more intense it becomes. Once youve mastered those, you go into single leg bounds on the SAME leg, stiff legged, which is extremely intense, and if you can do them at close to full speed, youre a good one leg jumper no question.

Quote

But yeah, my question was initially about the two footed jump, but it hinted a bit towards the one-leg version as well.

Also, why not think about the one-leg jump as a spring ? I mean, I've jumped with both a lever and spring mindset and it was OK, I think the lever thing works well with more reactive and light people, while the spring works better with strength-oriented and heavier people. I get that once you try to use ONE LEG as a spring the overload on that leg becomes incredible so you need incredible strength to prevent that leg from collapsing though.

For example, in a normal single leg bound there's compression happening and muscular power being put in there. The knee and hip joints of that leg are bent and not straight, which makes the muscle of those joints to load up quite a bit. So...

You dont load a single leg jump in a directly downward line, very far from it. Do a standing single leg jump and standing 2 leg jump. Now do a running single leg jump and a running 2 leg jump. You might have a 20+ inch difference off one, and 5+ off 2. If that doesnt tell you something about the force patterns/directions, then I cant say anything that will help you.

Raptor · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:36:12 pm »

Yeah I know, and you're right.

But how would a progression to stiff leg bounds should go? I mean, I have never ever seen anybody do that. Nowhere. You're saying a stiff leg single leg bound is a bound where the only movement occurs at the hip, while the knee is locked? That's... I'm not sure it's possible. You'd have to be a mutant in terms of strength to do it properly.

And yeah, my hamstrings are strong, but shouldn't the glutes take over in terms of hip extension? Ain't I overloading the hamstrings if they act as prime movers in terms of hip extension? Shouldn't the hams assist the glutes into performing the hip extension? Wouldn't getting the hams stronger make me even more "ham" dominant and potentially get injured by improper recruitment patterns/lazy glutes?

There's a bunch of stuff I need to think about ...

LanceSTS · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2011, 02:59:54 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on May 19, 2011, 01:36:12 pm

Yeah I know, and you're right.

But how would a progression to stiff leg bounds should go? I mean, I have never ever seen anybody do that. Nowhere. You're saying a stiff leg single leg bound is a bound where the only movement occurs at the hip, while the knee is locked? That's... I'm not sure it's possible. You'd have to be a mutant in terms of strength to do it properly.

The leg is going to be semi stiff legged in reality, the knee is of course kept bent very slightly, but ALL action is from the hip. Best progression is to get really good at primetimes at a high -ish speed, then do them (single leg stiff leg bounding) slowly, then do them fast. Once you start doing them, you adapt fairly quickly, and then you can progress into all out speed.

Quote

And yeah, my hamstrings are strong, but shouldn't the glutes take over in terms of hip extension? Ain't I overloading the hamstrings if they act as prime movers in terms of hip extension? Shouldn't the hams assist the glutes into performing the hip extension? Wouldn't getting the hams stronger make me even more "ham" dominant and potentially get injured by improper recruitment patterns/lazy glutes?

There's a bunch of stuff I need to think about ...

Glutes and hams should work together for sure, but, thats one of the main reasons the hamstrings have to be insanely powerful to be able to "lock up" in a high level athlete, so that the force transfer is not broken when the foot hits the ground. If the hamstrings are not up to par, they will give, the knee will bend MORE as it slides forward, and guess where you will now feel the tension instead of the glutes...............

Everything I listed will be glute "driven" in a way, when done properly, when you "feel" more hamstring, its usually because they are not yet strong enough to stay contracted during contact, and transfer the work up the hip. If the pelvis is kept in proper position, "lazy" glutes is not a problem, but athletes will still tend to "feel" the hamstrings UNTIL they are strong enough to lock up hard enough, and transfer the force.

Raptor · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:18:25 pm »

But why would the knee bend more and slide forward? The quad is the muscle that will/should prevent that from happening. The hamstring can't do that, unless hamstring weakness overloads the quad that gives up.

For me it happened in the ham in the past - at the "knee end" of the ham, I could feel the weakness there. But it still doesn't make sense from the biomechanical standpoint unless that overload occurs (and when it happened I didn't feel the quad overload so, again, doesn't make sense). I mean, why would the knee go forward more?

Quote

LanceSTS · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2011, 03:42:39 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on May 19, 2011, 03:18:25 pm

But why would the knee bend more and slide forward? The quad is the muscle that will/should prevent that from happening. The hamstring can't do that, unless hamstring weakness overloads the quad that gives up.

Because the hamstring wasnt strong/powerful enough to stay "stiff", only thing left to happen is the knee re bending or torso leaning forward. When the force gets too great to handle, one of those two happen, usually if the athlete bends excessively forward at the waist the knee has already bent again anyway.

Quote

For me it happened in the ham in the past - at the "knee end" of the ham, I could feel the weakness there. But it still doesn't make sense from the biomechanical standpoint unless that overload occurs (and when it happened I didn't feel the quad overload so, again, doesn't make sense). I mean, why would the knee go forward more?

It almost ALWAYS happens at the knee end with the single leg jumps/bounds, the reason is the hamstrings arent strong enough, IN EXTENSION>

Raptor · « **Reply #12 on:** May 19, 2011, 05:23:01 pm »

Hm... well I do tend to bend forward at the waist when I run for my plant. If not (say I lean back a bit) then the knee usually collapses, so what you say makes sense.

So you're saying this can be corrected more with plyo stuff than weight room work (more a matter of shock absorption&manipulation/body position than regular say Romanian Deadlift or GHR strength)?

Also, what's your take on sprints and uphill sprints? They should train the hamstrings at high tension thresholds and going uphill should load the hips more, while at the same time the body position should favor hamstring load.

Thanks for this discussion by the way, I find this stuff very interesting and it's nice to actually have someone whom I can freely talk about and is able to understand these things.

PS. Andrew's words of "hamstrings are useless" keep coming to mind. He was talking about quad dominant two footed jumps though

LanceSTS · « **Reply #13 on:** May 19, 2011, 07:26:06 pm »

Quote from: Raptor on May 19, 2011, 05:23:01 pm

Hm... well I do tend to bend forward at the waist when I run for my plant. If not (say I lean back a bit) then the knee usually collapses, so what you say makes sense.

Quote

So you're saying this can be corrected more with plyo stuff than weight room work (more a matter of shock absorption&manipulation/body position than regular say Romanian Deadlift or GHR strength)?

yep, both are important, but the bounding/jumps must be done to truly correct the issue in a high speed movement like that with very specific joint angles/recruitment patterns.

Quote

Also, what's your take on sprints and uphill sprints? They should train the hamstrings at high tension thresholds and going uphill should load the hips more, while at the same time the body position should favor hamstring load.

I like them, but they are MUCH lower intensity than the bounds, although i agree that they provide some great gpp for jumpers/sprinters, at a very low risk of injury. (note: was specifically speaking of uphill sprints, sprints are done by EVERYONE lol)

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Thanks for this discussion by the way, I find this stuff very interesting and it's nice to actually have someone whom I can freely talk about and is able to understand these things.

No problem man, enjoyed it.

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PS. Andrew's words of "hamstrings are useless" keep coming to mind. He was talking about quad dominant two footed jumps though

haha, yea 2 leg jumps are much different, and I would imagine that was in retaliation to people preaching that the quads do nothing, and the p chain does everything, which is not true at all, in any jump.

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Author Topic: Three types of depth jumps (Read 5535 times)

Raptor

Three types of depth jumps

LanceSTS

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