Adarq.org

Blog Section => ADARQ & LanceSTS - Q&A => Topic started by: D4 on August 19, 2012, 04:59:40 pm

Title: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 19, 2012, 04:59:40 pm
Lance, I remember in another thread pretty long time ago, you mentioned that push press destroys bench press in terms of carryover to basketball.

Not disputing this, I'm just curious as to why and how?  Strictly for knowledge sake since I'm a basketball player.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 19, 2012, 05:05:59 pm
I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 05:19:39 pm
Lance, I remember in another thread pretty long time ago, you mentioned that push press destroys bench press in terms of carryover to basketball.

Not disputing this, I'm just curious as to why and how?  Strictly for knowledge sake since I'm a basketball player.

When you block a shot, shoot a jump shot, go up for a rebound, fight for the ball, are using the muscles used in a movement more similar to a lower and upper body explosive movement, or are you using a prop to brace your upper torso against, and no leg drive? 

The bench press is a good lift and has it use, but the push press destroys it in carryover to athletic movements.  Ive never seen someone push press a lot of weight who wasnt also strong at bench press.  Lots of good bench pressers dont have the core stability, lower body explosiveness, and timing to push press two wet socks.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 05:21:18 pm
I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".


there were much less shoulder injuries back then as well, due to the balanced nature of prioritizing the OHP and using the bench press more sparingly.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 19, 2012, 05:22:38 pm
What would you say is a good number for push pressing?  For example, 2xBW for squats is a good milestone, 1.5xBW for bench is considered really good, what about push press? My goal at a 152-155lb BW is to do 135 for 3 reps.  Would that be considered adequate?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 05:25:57 pm
What would you say is a good number for push pressing?  For example, 2xBW for squats is a good milestone, 1.5xBW for bench is considered really good, what about push press? My goal at a 152-155lb BW is to do 135 for 3 reps.  Would that be considered adequate?

 Push pressing your bodyweight for a few reps is a good goal to start with. When you can do that you will tend to not have problems being stronger than the majority of players you compete against.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 19, 2012, 05:40:17 pm
What would you say is a good number for push pressing?  For example, 2xBW for squats is a good milestone, 1.5xBW for bench is considered really good, what about push press? My goal at a 152-155lb BW is to do 135 for 3 reps.  Would that be considered adequate?

 Push pressing your bodyweight for a few reps is a good goal to start with. When you can do that you will tend to not have problems being stronger than the majority of players you compete against.
Damn I have a long ways to go llol...  yeah I'm gonna prioritize push press over my bench now
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Kingfish on August 19, 2012, 07:36:01 pm
if you want to save your shoulder/wrist joints the beating, do standing overhead DB press instead. get to 80lb+ and be boss.

basketball players who benches 3 plates is nothing special.. you standing press at least 185+..you'd be a lot stronger for the sport.

 

Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: pelham32 on August 19, 2012, 09:20:36 pm
I definitely vouch for the push press, as I feel it did help me with being more physical and being able to absorb more contact while finishing during drives and layups. But if you push press watch for shoulder health and do work for the external rotators and stretch the shoulders, pecs, traps to avoid impingement.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 10:05:11 pm
if you want to save your shoulder/wrist joints the beating, do standing overhead DB press instead. get to 80lb+ and be boss.

basketball players who benches 3 plates is nothing special.. you standing press at least 185+..you'd be a lot stronger for the sport.

 



horseshit. Standing press is a good lift but pales in comparison to the dynamic correspondence to sports that the push press gives.

 You also dont have a good frame of reference to make the last statement, a 315 bench press is pretty rare even in high level basketball.


and, one of the good thing about the push press is you still get the external rotation at the top of the lift for the shoulders, without the stress from the very bottom, where most issues occur, due to the drive from the LEGS.  So its actually safer for the shoulders, done correctly.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Kingfish on August 19, 2012, 10:21:53 pm
^ i've been wrong before..  :P
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 10:33:24 pm
^ i've been wrong before..  :P

Well if you had said, for building the shoulders the press will be a bitter option, you would have a strong case.  The thing with the push press is that it involves leg drive in a very similar manner to most athletic movement, and allows more weight, while having to also stabilize the body during that dynamic movement against the ground.

 The shoulders are put at a better leverage point from the leg drive, and you still get all the external rotation at the top.  Pretty hard to beat for an athlete. 

For physique enhancement, not really necessary.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Kingfish on August 19, 2012, 10:41:09 pm
my push press to press gap is too much its just embarrassing. thats why i prefer to build shoulders more. and i stand with my dislike for the bench.. id rather press 225s than bench 315s.  but thats just me.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 19, 2012, 10:47:34 pm
my push press to press gap is too much its just embarrassing. thats why i prefer to build shoulders more. and i stand with my dislike for the bench.. id rather press 225s than bench 315s.  but thats just me.

If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 20, 2012, 03:04:09 am
This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious.  You know how shoulder power contributes to vertical jump height and to work on it people do arm swings like when Adarqui used to do his plate swings which basically mimics the same swing motion in jumps. 

Push presses aren't the same motion as plate swings, but does improving push press help with the same effect that improving plate swings will have specifically on VJ's?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 20, 2012, 03:10:06 am
This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious.  You know how shoulder power contributes to vertical jump height and to work on it people do arm swings like when Adarqui used to do his plate swings which basically mimics the same swing motion in jumps. 

Push presses aren't the same motion as plate swings, but does improving push press help with the same effect that improving plate swings will have specifically on VJ's?

Think of it from the muscles being trained instead of the exact movement.  Also, watch how people jump with the ball, which is what you will have to do in an actual game, assuming youre not catching lobs on a regular basis.  Lay up, jump shot, dunk with the ball in hand, watch that movement.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 20, 2012, 05:23:44 am
This might be a stupid question, but I'm curious.  You know how shoulder power contributes to vertical jump height and to work on it people do arm swings like when Adarqui used to do his plate swings which basically mimics the same swing motion in jumps. 

Push presses aren't the same motion as plate swings, but does improving push press help with the same effect that improving plate swings will have specifically on VJ's?

Think of it from the muscles being trained instead of the exact movement.  Also, watch how people jump with the ball, which is what you will have to do in an actual game, assuming youre not catching lobs on a regular basis.  Lay up, jump shot, dunk with the ball in hand, watch that movement.

A jump and a shrug, baby!
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: T0ddday on August 20, 2012, 12:41:34 pm

If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.

Agreed.  Might take a few weeks of training to realize the strength though...  I had a max bench of 275 and didn't bench for about a year and instead just did power snatches, push jerks, and standing DB push presses...  I went back to benching and hit 295x3 after three weeks.

Question, what do you think of standing DB push presses?  Previously shoulder injuries make barbell push presses difficult, I can do heavy jerks and presses but have trouble doing multiple reps with significant weight because the negative is painful.  Dropping the bar is fine but requires it be cleaned to shoulder level again...  Do you think standing DB push presses with moderate weight and repetitions is sufficient if paired with some heavy singles in push jerk or push press?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 20, 2012, 02:25:24 pm

If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.

Agreed.  Might take a few weeks of training to realize the strength though...  I had a max bench of 275 and didn't bench for about a year and instead just did power snatches, push jerks, and standing DB push presses...  I went back to benching and hit 295x3 after three weeks.

Question, what do you think of standing DB push presses?  Previously shoulder injuries make barbell push presses difficult, I can do heavy jerks and presses but have trouble doing multiple reps with significant weight because the negative is painful.  Dropping the bar is fine but requires it be cleaned to shoulder level again...  Do you think standing DB push presses with moderate weight and repetitions is sufficient if paired with some heavy singles in push jerk or push press?

Yea that would work fine, the only problem with it would be the uncomfortable loading of the dumbells.  having to swing up a couple of 100 lb dumbells gets old after while.  If the straight bar aggravates your shoulders though I think dumbells are a good idea.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 20, 2012, 03:12:18 pm
Can anybody post a video with the right form on the dumbbell push press? There are so many out there that I don't know which one is actually the correct form...
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LBSS on August 21, 2012, 12:12:23 am
I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".


there were much less shoulder injuries back then
as well, due to the balanced nature of prioritizing the OHP and using the bench press more sparingly.

really? seems like kind of an odd claim.

whatever, just being anal.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 12:36:38 am
I remember someone who said "people of the past had much more interest in the standing overhead press vs. pushing something from the chest while laying horizontal on a bench".


there were much less shoulder injuries back then
as well, due to the balanced nature of prioritizing the OHP and using the bench press more sparingly.

really? seems like kind of an odd claim.

whatever, just being anal.

Im talking about the competitive lifters that competed with the press in competition, vs the bench press now.  A few years back this was a pretty large ordeal, some coaches claiming the press injured lifters shoulders, and thats why it went away in competition.  

There are actual statistics logged that have been posted many times in different places, showing the bench related issues vs the press.

 The second argument that got dismissed was the press was pushed out of competition due to back injuries, which also is not true.  It got too hard to  judge fairly, as more lifters got more fluent with the torso lean and hip drive.  It was too hard to tell if the knees actually did anything, and some countries that were "favorites" could get white lights, while others would get reds for the same thing.

 either in a livespill or an article on tnation where the statistics are actually posted as well fairly recently, I believe it was CT that posted it.  Its not hard to see though, go to 2 or 3 powerlifting meets, and youre  bound to get to witness a pec tear, or a rotator cuff tear, from the  bench press.  This  just wasnt as much an issue when there were/is a more  balanced ratio of pressing.

edit: If my memory is correct, Starr also wrote some similar things via the press and shoulder health. 
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 01:07:32 am
 some more stuff on the ohp and shoulder health. 

I Don't Agree...
by Christian Thibaudeau - 02/09/2011
Good coaches can sometimes disagree on some points even though they are generally in agreement on other subjects.

And both can boast a wide range of success stories, making them reliable in their opinion (you can't argue with success).

Doesn't mean that one is "more wrong" than the other or that both are going at wr against each other.

Joe DeFranco's latest article includes an opinion that I don't agree with, and I'm saying that while having nothing but tremendous respect for the guy.

He mentions that we should avoid the overhead press if you are trying to build your shoulders. That only one out of X athlete can perform it safely.

Since the overhead press is the cornerstone of most of my programs, I don't agree (obviously).

My shoulders were never healthier than when I competed as an olympic lifter, a time where overhead pressing, the push press and jerk were roughly 25% of my training.

In fact I never had any shoulder pains before going away from doing a lot of overhead work. And as soon as I started putting an emphasis on various forms of overhead pressing instead of bench pressing my shoulder problems went away.

And I'm not the only one, Jim Wendler told me the exact same thing when I visited him and Dave in Ohio.

Glenn Pendlay, who is an amazing coach who works with athletes from many sports also put overhead work at a premium, specifically the push press.

And as a group, olympic lifters generally have VERY healthy shoulders despite doing overhead work for 50% of their training volume.

It is my opinion that those who have shoulder problems when overhead pressing simply use bad technique or have flexibiility issues.

Yesterday 01:09
Personally I tend to agree with Glenn Pendlay and believe that the push press is the suprior overhead movement. It bypasses the weak zone, which is also the position where most injuries can occur. From experience it's the best movement to build the shoulders.

I also noticed with myself and dozens of clients, that gains in overhead strength are highly correlated with gains in bench pressing strength; I had my biggest bench press gains when I did an overhead press spec.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 01:12:06 am
  http://www.charlespoliquin.com/Blog/tabid/130/EntryId/719/Top-Five-Pressing-Issues.aspx

from the article:

" I agree with my colleague strength coach Bill Starr that, without question, the main cause of shoulder problems in strength trained athletes is the lack of overhead pressing work."


Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Mikey on August 21, 2012, 02:23:25 am
Interesting thread. Personally i've been neglecting overhead work for a while but this thread has convinced me to start adding it in as some extra assistance. I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2012, 04:17:53 am
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 10:13:50 am
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2012, 10:44:00 am
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?

It's not.

Duuuuuuuuuuuh... that was the point...

Man I really need to use some sarcasm emoticons or something
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 03:15:11 pm
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

how is  it "safer"?

It's not.

Duuuuuuuuuuuh... that was the point...

Man I really need to use some sarcasm emoticons or something

I thought thats what you were doing at first, wanted to make sure though.  ;)
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2012, 03:47:44 pm
Wasn't Rippetoe saying that out of 11 yearly fatalities in the US due to weightlifting, 9 are during a bench press?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 04:43:45 pm
Wasn't Rippetoe saying that out of 11 yearly fatalities in the US due to weightlifting, 9 are during a bench press?

No idea what he said.  The thing you have to take into consideration when looking at statistics involving exercises, is that the ones that show up as causing the most (insert anything), are often the exercises which are most common.  The  bench press is one of those exercises that most everyone does, even if thats all they do when they first get a weight set, so its going to show up high on any of those lists. 

In my opinion, and what Ive seen over time, the  bench press is responsible for more pec and shoulder issues than any exercise in the gym.  Overhead work is a good way to help  balance things out,  but once you get strong enough to hurt yourself with the  bench press, you HAVE to pay attention to how your  body handles it.  Different form works for different guys,  but here is a general guideline that I use when teaching the lift, and how its performed at my gym.

1. grip is always narrow, no more than a thumbs distance from the start of the knurling, and less for a lot of longer armed athletes. 

2. The mass of the lifters  bodyweight is placed on the upper rear delts and traps, with a shrugged up posture, NOT shoulders DOWN and  back.  I want the traps touching the ears, and the weight driven into the traps from the legs, the duration of the whole set.

3.  The upper arm is lowered at a close to 45 degree angle to the torso, never flared, yet never "tucked" hard either.  Either of the latter tend to cause too much shoulder and or pec strain in raw heavy  benches for most guys.


4. Always start with shoulder mobility work and an overhead movement, snatches, push press, etc. all work fine.


Those 4 things have proven themselves over time, and helped remedy some of the issues that the bench is normally known for causing.   

Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2012, 05:40:33 pm
You should do a video^^^ it's hard to understand.

Especially at 1... narrow grip, and "less" for longer armed athletes? So if you have long arms you should use an even narrower grip? Doesn't make any sense, so probably I'm getting it wrong...

I also have different looking bars at my gym (olympic bars nonetheless) with different markers on them... not sure what "knurling" means.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 05:58:02 pm
You should do a video^^^ it's hard to understand.

Especially at 1... narrow grip, and "less" for longer armed athletes? So if you have long arms you should use an even narrower grip? Doesn't make any sense, so probably I'm getting it wrong...

 The longer the arms, the more detrimental a wide grip is to the shoulders and pectorals. Again, thats MY experience,  but if you look around raw lifters, youll find that to stand true much of the time as well.  Search youtube for "glenn chabot  bench press".  Or look at konstantinovs, etc.  There is a reason they do it this way, and its definitely not due to it making the lift a shorter movement.

Quote
I also have different looking bars at my gym (olympic bars nonetheless) with different markers on them... not sure what "knurling" means.

 Where the rough part of the  bar starts.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 06:01:57 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7TIUMm8uQQ

Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 21, 2012, 06:47:49 pm
What if you ditch the bench press completely and focus on the overhead press? Anything bad with that approach? Do the dips do anything for your pecs in terms of whatever hypertrophy?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: chrisbro1 on August 21, 2012, 07:03:47 pm
2. The mass of the lifters  bodyweight is placed on the upper rear delts and traps, with a shrugged up posture, NOT shoulders DOWN and  back.  I want the traps touching the ears, and the weight driven into the traps from the legs, the duration of the whole set.

The above is an excellent tip.  Lifting this way made a world of difference for me over the past year. 
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 21, 2012, 10:54:19 pm
What if you ditch the bench press completely and focus on the overhead press? Anything bad with that approach? Do the dips do anything for your pecs in terms of whatever hypertrophy?

 Thats a reasonable approach, we cant do it that way since most of my guys get tested on the  bench press, and it can impact the rankings at school/combine testing.  We use the football  bar a lot though, which allows the hands to be in a neutral position.

 For pure performance in sports though, I would focus most the time on push press and press, using a close grip  bench press every now and then to aid the other two lifts.

For shot putters we use a close grip incline along with push presses.

Dips done with a forward lean hit the pecs hard, have to  be careful there too though.  Dips tend to be a little more shoulder friendly than bench press due to the scapula not  being pinned down underneath you.

 If pec hypertrophy is the focus, you will generally do well with dumbell  bench, on a slight incline works really well. 
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: T0ddday on August 22, 2012, 02:22:57 pm
Wasn't Rippetoe saying that out of 11 yearly fatalities in the US due to weightlifting, 9 are during a bench press?

No idea what he said.  The thing you have to take into consideration when looking at statistics involving exercises, is that the ones that show up as causing the most (insert anything), are often the exercises which are most common.  The  bench press is one of those exercises that most everyone does, even if thats all they do when they first get a weight set, so its going to show up high on any of those lists. 


Although I would also prioritize overhead pressing over bench pressing for athletes who are not tested in the bench press... It's important to note that a statistic like this can be REALLY misleading (As is a lot of what Rippetoe espouses) and not just for the reason stated above.  While the relative rate of injuries to the muscle groups involved in the lift (pecs, shoulders, etc) are usually indicative of the safety of an exercise, fatalities and traumatic injuries are indicative of poor execution of the movement. 

Not only is the bench press the first exercise that most people attempt it's also one of the most ego-driven lifts performed.  Walk into any college rec center in the US and you are bound to see a 160 pound kid "benching" 225 pounds with his spotter (or "partner") providing a huge amount of assistance on each concentric rep. 

However, you will rarely see people overhead pressing 50 pounds more than their max while a partner hangs above them pulling the weight up.  If you did... there would be a whole lot of traumatic injuries occuring during OHP.

Additionally, the bench press requires a spotter.  In the event of a muscle pull or cramp you can't simply dump the weight like you can in the squat, OHP, deadlift, etc.  Of course if you don't lift with a spotter then a pec tear can turn into a pec tear + a crushed windpipe.   


Bottom line is: If you bench, do it safely.  If you OHP do it safely.  If you do both safely then the bench press may be more likely to cause injury or strain to muscles used in the lift but neither should have a higher likelihood of fatality or traumatic injury.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 22, 2012, 03:04:07 pm
Any way to bench safely without a spotter? I don't have a spotter but then again - I don't go overboard with weight (when I stop I usually have at least 1 rep in the tank) and I never ever put the clamps on at the end of the bar so I can unload the bar if needed.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on August 22, 2012, 03:59:17 pm
Any way to bench safely without a spotter? I don't have a spotter but then again - I don't go overboard with weight (when I stop I usually have at least 1 rep in the tank) and I never ever put the clamps on at the end of the bar so I can unload the bar if needed.

Yes.

First and easiest is use a power rack.  Set the pins high enough that when you lay flat against the pad, they take the load.  When you raise your chest, they should not  be high enough to interfere with the exercise. 


second option,
 
Practice dumping the load (like you are aware of ) one side at a time, to make sure you have it down. push with one arm, pulll with the other. Weight slides off one side, then the other.  You can also roll it straight down your legs if youre not a moron about it.  Once it gets to your hip line sit up, and push it off you.  Not comfortable  but works fine.

You should never  be anywhere near your neck with the weight, and always push straight DOWN toward your hips if you cant unload the  bar.  Foolish people roll it upwards towards their heads, thinking they are going to push it over the head and come out, never works and ends up on the neck.  Cuts off circulation, pass out, suffocation,  peace.

Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 22, 2012, 04:46:22 pm
I could try to bench in the squat rack, but that's not adjustable so I guess it comes down to luck in terms of proper height.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 24, 2012, 01:42:37 am

If you can standing press 225, you can bench 315 without even trying... and yea, I would rather have someone with a huge push press than a big bench.  What was wrong is the notion that a 315 bench is common among basketball players, thats not true at all.

Agreed.  Might take a few weeks of training to realize the strength though...  I had a max bench of 275 and didn't bench for about a year and instead just did power snatches, push jerks, and standing DB push presses...  I went back to benching and hit 295x3 after three weeks.

Question, what do you think of standing DB push presses?  Previously shoulder injuries make barbell push presses difficult, I can do heavy jerks and presses but have trouble doing multiple reps with significant weight because the negative is painful.  Dropping the bar is fine but requires it be cleaned to shoulder level again...  Do you think standing DB push presses with moderate weight and repetitions is sufficient if paired with some heavy singles in push jerk or push press?

T0ddday, when you didn't bench for a year and just did those other exercises instead, I know your bench strength went up after utilizing the exercise again for 3 weeks, but in the mean time did your chest atrophy?

If anyone else has experience with this, I'd like to hear it too.

I'm happy with my current physique, and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting my push press way up since I want carryover to basketball and it'll also get my bench up anyways, so I'm considering taking out the bench press since I'm already pretty decent at it, but not at the cost of chest atrophy.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on August 24, 2012, 05:01:12 am
and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting my push press

I read "and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting pussy"
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: T0ddday on August 24, 2012, 04:25:11 pm

T0ddday, when you didn't bench for a year and just did those other exercises instead, I know your bench strength went up after utilizing the exercise again for 3 weeks, but in the mean time did your chest atrophy?

If anyone else has experience with this, I'd like to hear it too.

I'm happy with my current physique, and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting my push press way up since I want carryover to basketball and it'll also get my bench up anyways, so I'm considering taking out the bench press since I'm already pretty decent at it, but not at the cost of chest atrophy.

If it did, it wasn't obvious.  Everyone's different but generally I tend to hold on to muscle mass pretty easily.  However, I would bet you wouldn't see much muscle atrophy from dropping bench unless you are either extremely muscular right now OR you also embark on a very restrictive diet. 

What you will see when dropping an exercise like that is a loss of muscle tonus which will happen pretty quickly but also resume pretty soon as you start targeting the muscle group again.  I don't know your training history, but I would wager that most of the people on this msg board (though there are exceptions), have added (or lost) very little actual muscle mass as a result of their weight training and incorrectly assume gains or losses in strength, muscle tone, and body weight are the direct result of significant gains or loss of muscle tissue.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 24, 2012, 06:29:34 pm

T0ddday, when you didn't bench for a year and just did those other exercises instead, I know your bench strength went up after utilizing the exercise again for 3 weeks, but in the mean time did your chest atrophy?

If anyone else has experience with this, I'd like to hear it too.

I'm happy with my current physique, and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting my push press way up since I want carryover to basketball and it'll also get my bench up anyways, so I'm considering taking out the bench press since I'm already pretty decent at it, but not at the cost of chest atrophy.

If it did, it wasn't obvious.  Everyone's different but generally I tend to hold on to muscle mass pretty easily.  However, I would bet you wouldn't see much muscle atrophy from dropping bench unless you are either extremely muscular right now OR you also embark on a very restrictive diet. 

What you will see when dropping an exercise like that is a loss of muscle tonus which will happen pretty quickly but also resume pretty soon as you start targeting the muscle group again.  I don't know your training history, but I would wager that most of the people on this msg board (though there are exceptions), have added (or lost) very little actual muscle mass as a result of their weight training and incorrectly assume gains or losses in strength, muscle tone, and body weight are the direct result of significant gains or loss of muscle tissue.

This may be a stupid question, but what do you mean by loss of muscle tonus exactly?

Maybe I should just do some 3x5 Bench once a week after my push presses
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: T0ddday on August 24, 2012, 07:38:30 pm

T0ddday, when you didn't bench for a year and just did those other exercises instead, I know your bench strength went up after utilizing the exercise again for 3 weeks, but in the mean time did your chest atrophy?

If anyone else has experience with this, I'd like to hear it too.

I'm happy with my current physique, and upper-body wise I want to focus on getting my push press way up since I want carryover to basketball and it'll also get my bench up anyways, so I'm considering taking out the bench press since I'm already pretty decent at it, but not at the cost of chest atrophy.

If it did, it wasn't obvious.  Everyone's different but generally I tend to hold on to muscle mass pretty easily.  However, I would bet you wouldn't see much muscle atrophy from dropping bench unless you are either extremely muscular right now OR you also embark on a very restrictive diet. 

What you will see when dropping an exercise like that is a loss of muscle tonus which will happen pretty quickly but also resume pretty soon as you start targeting the muscle group again.  I don't know your training history, but I would wager that most of the people on this msg board (though there are exceptions), have added (or lost) very little actual muscle mass as a result of their weight training and incorrectly assume gains or losses in strength, muscle tone, and body weight are the direct result of significant gains or loss of muscle tissue.

This may be a stupid question, but what do you mean by loss of muscle tonus exactly?

Maybe I should just do some 3x5 Bench once a week after my push presses

Think of it as semi-permanent pump.  For example, if you don't work out at all and then do a bunch of close-grip pullups your biceps will fill with blood (post workout pump) for a couple hours after the workout.  If you continue to do this the pump will always reduce in size following the workout but the between pump muscle tension will be greater than before you lifted at all.  This adaption to a semi-tense muscle state (muscle tonus) is very often misinterpreted as actual hypertrophy.   

If you go on vacation and sit around and drink pina coladas for a couple weeks you will lose your muscle tonus (that bicep vein may become less visible)  but actual muscle loss will be minor provided you didn't have an extreme amount of muscle or go on an extreme diet. 

If you want to keep your muscle tonus in your chest you will need to do some movement that involves the chest.  This doesn't have to be bench press.  In fact if you don't intend to add mass or strength high-rep dumbell flys could even be better.  I don't train bodybuilders but I do know they know every trick in the book as far as which exercises do the best job in getting blood flow into muscles to maintain tone.  It's very crucial for them when dieting.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: D4 on August 24, 2012, 08:27:31 pm
Ohhh yeah I know exactly what you're talking about.  I'm one of those people who thought that was hypertrophy as well lol.  

So as long as I'm not going on a restrictive diet/keeping protein high enough and just doing any chest exercise like flyes or even push ups here and there, my chest should stay looking exactly the same, while I continue to increase upper body/bench press strength with push presses.

And even if I decide to ignore the loss of muscle tonus, I can just basically just get it back and get my chest looking back to how it is now whenever I want by just doing direct chest exercises again for a couple sessions.  right?
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: T0ddday on August 26, 2012, 11:32:31 pm
Ohhh yeah I know exactly what you're talking about.  I'm one of those people who thought that was hypertrophy as well lol. 

So as long as I'm not going on a restrictive diet/keeping protein high enough and just doing any chest exercise like flyes or even push ups here and there, my chest should stay looking exactly the same, while I continue to increase upper body/bench press strength with push presses.

And even if I decide to ignore the loss of muscle tonus, I can just basically just get it back and get my chest looking back to how it is now whenever I want by just doing direct chest exercises again for a couple sessions.  right?

That's a pretty good strategy.  Might take a couple weeks of a couple sessions per/week but you have the right idea. 
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Mikey on September 02, 2012, 02:45:50 am
I still prefer the bench press though since you can throw up more weight on it :P

Yeah, it's also safer. It's not like too many people die bench pressing or anything.

The bench press takes another victim. He died after injuring his heart, diaphragm, broken ribs and torn abdominal cavity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7rhoohGhI
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: LanceSTS on September 02, 2012, 02:50:17 am

 Yeah that sucks. Those spotters are supposed to be FOLLOWING the bar, and are standing there with their thumbs up their asses.
Title: Re: Push Press and Basketball
Post by: Raptor on September 02, 2012, 06:42:08 am

 Yeah that sucks. Those spotters are supposed to be FOLLOWING the bar, and are standing there with their thumbs up their asses.

That's the first thing I thought. In fact I'd take that even further and say that if you sign in as a spotter, especially on an official competition, you should be charged with negligence murder (I don't know how exactly you name it in English) if something like this happes ^^^

If a guy dies and you're a spotter, it's your responsibility.