Author Topic: Squatting weight and vertical jumping  (Read 12503 times)

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hennas87

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Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« on: February 03, 2011, 09:48:38 am »
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Hiya,
 
hey guys,

I've been doing the vf2 beginner explosive training program for 4 weeks now and have progressively been adding more weight to the squats I've been doing. In week 1 I was doing sets (5x5) with 100kg and now in week 4 I can do 120kg without any problems. I weigh 80kg.
The same goes for deadlifts, I don't know exact numbers off hand but I have increased the weight in them as well.
From what I've read it seems like one of the most important things I can do to increase my vertical jump is increase the amount of weight I can squat. As I seem to be improving weekly I would have thought that I should keep going but I've read on further into the program and from week 6 onwards the amount of weight it says I should use in the squat seems to be going down a lot.
 
Would it be ridiculous to repeat phase 1 to add more weight to my lifts before going on to do phases 2 and 3? I think I could go on to lift a lot more than I have been doing...
Or should I just finish the 12 weeks and then move on to the intermediate weight lifting program?
 
I remember seeing that Lance posted on the vertfreak101 forum and for some reason I can't access it anymore, it says: "Not Found

The requested URL /training/forum.php was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request."

any idea what happened with that? has it been closed down or perhaps I'm banned even tho i've barely posted there.

Hope you guys can set me straight cos I never got a reply when I emailed the guys at vertfreak which is a little poor :-(

-Henry
boomshakala

LanceSTS

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 01:58:51 pm »
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 If youre still improving WEEKLY I would definitely not change what youre doing right now, milk those initial strength gains for all theyre worth.  Once you hit a wall later down the road then you can tweak what youre doing but for now I would definitely stick with something that has been working well for you and not change it just to do something different. 
Relax.

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 04:42:03 pm »
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awesome, thanks Lance. Tbh that's what I thought but it's always nice to hear it from someone who definitely knows what they're talking about, kinda gives me more motivation to keep working hard :-)

Cheers for the fast reply, I appreciate it  :highfive:
boomshakala

adarqui

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 03:45:05 am »
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If youre still improving WEEKLY I would definitely not change what youre doing right now, milk those initial strength gains for all theyre worth.  Once you hit a wall later down the road then you can tweak what youre doing but for now I would definitely stick with something that has been working well for you and not change it just to do something different. 

agree with lance, i don't know why the squat intensity gets lower in vertfreak, in the program you're on, so i can't really comment on it.. but you definitely want to keep the strength gains coming, if you are making gains.. backing off to 'peak' etc would be okay if you had some kind of event/combine you were peaking for, but in general, squat intensity rarely drops, it's just volume that drops/fluctuates.. high intensity lifting becomes one's bread & butter, backing off, for most people, usually leads to decreases in max/explosive strength. If you are anything like me, genetically 'weak' in the max/explosive strength department, there is no such thing as a "deload", lol, high intensity lifting is a must, ~3x a week for myself, but it's just volume that gets "deloaded".

so ya, if that means repeating block 1 until you've made all of your 'quick gains', then do it, would be my opinion.. once you start stagnating, then phase 2 or 3 would make sense (from what im picturing).

peace man

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 07:56:38 am »
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apparently vertfreak is supposed to never allow you to plateau although for me it didn't allow enough time for my maximum quick gains so I'll keep it going for now and see what happens.

nice one chaps, I will check back with significant improvements  :ibsquatting: :wowthatwasnutswtf:
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adarqui

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 06:44:42 pm »
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apparently vertfreak is supposed to never allow you to plateau although for me it didn't allow enough time for my maximum quick gains so I'll keep it going for now and see what happens.

nice one chaps, I will check back with significant improvements  :ibsquatting: :wowthatwasnutswtf:

not sure about how VF program is programming this so i'll just speak generally..

well, plateau'n is actually a good thing... the quicker you get to your "limits", the more time you have to spend pushing past those limits.. sure a gradual approach is most effective, but here's what i'm getting at..

the quicker you get to your "initial limit", the more you can focus on actually pushing passed it. Alot of people take an extraordinary amount of time just getting to their initial limit, which just slows down the process.. You want to reach that initial limit, where gains become pretty hard, as soon as possible (while still staying fit, jumping, sprinting, reactive work etc), because now, all programming/training is structured around percentages BASED on that defeating that limit.

So, if somehow we had a magic ball, and knew that 1.9xBW squat would be your "initial limit", where further gains become VERY HARD, we'd want to reach that point as soon as possible (still this can take 6+ months). Once we reach that goal, now everything is focused on setting new limits, like 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5.. If 1.9 is where things get very hard, and you manage to improve to 2.5 over the next 1.5-2 years, that will result in some SERIOUS performance gains..

so with all that said, getting to the point where you genuinely plateau is pretty important, that's when the real fun (hell) starts.. alot of people "avoid plateau" by switching up the program etc, when in reality, they end up spinning their wheels for the most part.

an elite oly lifter type of athlete might have an initial limit of 2.5, weak people like me have an initial level of < 1.5xBW deep squat lol.

peace, hope that helps.

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2011, 01:13:52 pm »
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what I was doing in those 4 weeks was just adding 5kg more to my squats every week (there's one workout a week with squats excluding other days with box squats and jump squats). I'm wary of adding more than that because I had a few knee problems a while back which was aggrevated by squatting although this seems to have got better now and I don't get the pain anymore.
sometimes what I'll do is add another 5kg on the last set to see how I do if I felt the other sets were too easy.

what are your views on wearing weightlifting belts when squatting? I've never done it because I feel hindered and the weights I'm doing at the moment probably aren't heavy enough to call for it. do they make the lift easier by supporting the back or is it just for injury prevention, reminds me of a bench press video where people had commented that the guy was wearing a special bench press shirt which makes the lift easier.

I'm looking forward to finding out whether I'm weak or not  :P
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LanceSTS

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2011, 06:04:56 pm »
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what I was doing in those 4 weeks was just adding 5kg more to my squats every week (there's one workout a week with squats excluding other days with box squats and jump squats). I'm wary of adding more than that because I had a few knee problems a while back which was aggrevated by squatting although this seems to have got better now and I don't get the pain anymore.
sometimes what I'll do is add another 5kg on the last set to see how I do if I felt the other sets were too easy.

The most important thing at this point in your training is to continue to add weight to the bar linearly, workout to workout, or week to week, for as long as you possibly can.  There will come a time in your training when this is no longer possible and you have add load less frequently, accumulating more fatigue to be capable of adding the 10 or so lbs that you are able to add each week now.  Until that time happens, take advantage of being able to progress in a more timely fashion.


Quote
what are your views on wearing weightlifting belts when squatting? I've never done it because I feel hindered and the weights I'm doing at the moment probably aren't heavy enough to call for it. do they make the lift easier by supporting the back or is it just for injury prevention, reminds me of a bench press video where people had commented that the guy was wearing a special bench press shirt which makes the lift easier.

I dont have a problem with athletes wearing belts on their heaviest sets, especially if they are squatting below parallel, as long as they are not wearing the belt around the gym for everything they do.  The belt helps the lifter maintain pressure in the core as it gives them something to push the belly into.  It is in no way similar to a bench press shirt, a bench press shirt is a whole different animal, belts are legal in RAW  powerlifting feds, a bench shirt is 100% "gear" and will aid the lift much more.  Alot of athletes dont gain any extra poundage on their lifts by using a belt, they use it because they feel more secure by staying tighter in the hole.  fwiw, I wouldnt start using a belt unless you are already in the 400lb range with your squats anyway, and even then only on your last sets of the workout, where the weight is maximal.  Squatting 300 is alot different than squatting 400, and squatting 500 is much different than squatting 400, until there is a definite reason to use one, I would continue as you are.  

  Most athletes dont know how to use a belt correctly anyhow unless they come from a more powerlifting type background or a place where their coach has taught them the proper way to use one.  They just feel more comfortable with it on, hence really not getting anything out of the belt.  The back side of the belt does next to nothing, the front side of the belt is where the magic is and unless you understand how to push out into the belt, creating the tightness i mentioned earlier, the belt is a waste of time for you.  If you are not full squatting, the belt is also not going to be necessary.  If you are squatting full, in the 400lb range, and have solid understanding of how to use a belt, on your heaviest sets or pr sets, then it can be a useful tool.  

Quote
I'm looking forward to finding out whether I'm weak or not  :P

Doesnt matter, as long as YOU are improving in a timely fashion, YOU are successful in YOUR training, regardless of what others numbers are.  If your program does not allow for this to happen you need to change things, if what youre currently doing does allow for progressive, linear improvements, for as long as you can possibly make them, then keep at it.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:23:15 pm by LanceSTS »
Relax.

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2011, 06:40:12 pm »
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you guys are awesome  :headbang:  all of your posts have been incredibly helpful. I'm gonna get back in the gym 2moro and really go for it.
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hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 07:11:21 am »
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update:

I can now squat 150kg (330lbs) 5 times and am still improving. I'm really pleased with my gains so far and I'm sure it's going to help my jumping but I don't know it it's optimal for me as I'm primarily a 1 foot jumper.

I gave your "Single Leg Jumper's Toolbox: Part 1, 2, & 3" a read, Adarqui but it kinda went over my head. Should I keep on doing normal squats and just add some 1 leg specific stuff in?

In my previous training I would do pistol squats with added weight because I was convinced that it would be more specific to 1 leg jumping. It was very hard to progress up in weight, probably because of how deep the squat has to be and I didn't really make any vert gains from doing that.
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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 08:01:15 am »
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You should film your jumps and we can go from there. If your knee has a tendency to collapse when you jump at high plant speeds, then you need more quad strength. If that doesn't happen and you still don't get too high, you might need more posterior chain strength. Then there's technique. So...

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 09:31:47 am »
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I'll take my camera out with me next time I go to the courts and get some video sorted
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hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 06:17:44 am »
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right, I did some video of a few rvj's and one svj with a basketball rim. Not 100% sure if I've done exactly what you wanted me to do, I can do another one if it isn't right.

I'm jumping without the ball because I can't dunk and I'm not even close so I would look silly if I tried.
all jumps are normal speed and then slow mo.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZYKcVcFhhc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZYKcVcFhhc</a>

There's not a great deal of difference in my rvj and my svj which leads me to think I'm probably doing something wrong.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 06:30:49 am by hennas87 »
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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 08:34:41 am »
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You're pretty much jumping like I expected to... way too slow. You look strong and "heavy". You're currently not able to compress like I'd want you to and release that "compression" quickly. I also think that you might need some better hip flexor strength/explosiveness. In my experience (nothing too scientific here) - it's the hip flexor isometric strength that controls how that jumping leg sustains shocks at the hip and makes you "trust" your plant at that joint.

To me, one of the reasons for your lack of speed and "leg control" (which determines the lack of speed) is that - you need better hip flexor strength. Now of course that's only one small problem. For the others (movement efficiency) you should jump a lot more at the basket until it becomes second nature.

One thing I could recommend, and this was first recommended to me by RJ in the past - is to put a marker on the ground and jump from there to touch the rim, aiming for length. Then as you touch it, put the marker further. The further away in length the rim is, the more speed you're going to need to accumulate to touch the rim. Also, it forces you to involve the posterior chain more and more.

Another thing is - you should come from an angle. Right now you're going perpendicular (in terms of body lean to a side or the other laterally) to the rim. You might want to change the angle, coming from the left side of the rim and lean to the left a bit (plant more sideways). If you do that, some rotation will occur and that will help as additional force into taking some of your bodyweight off (same as when you drive your non-jump leg's knee up - you take away some of your bodyweight making the jump easier).

hennas87

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Re: Squatting weight and vertical jumping
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2011, 09:04:25 am »
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yeah, I found a little while ago that I seemed to be able to get a little higher on the rim when I came from the left hand side but i filmed from that side this time because I thought there might have been glare from the sun.

I will definitely try the marker thing you've suggested, sounds like a good idea.

what can I do in the weight room that will aid me? should I continue to increase my strength in the squat and do other exercises more specific to 1 leg jumping?

if so, what are good exercises I can do and what kind of effort do I need to use? e.g. as heavy as I can go for 5 reps or 8, or 12 etc... should I do them on a day that I don't squat?
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