Author Topic: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on  (Read 54866 times)

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Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2010, 07:18:12 pm »
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I just realized how the "insert quote" works. <---- noob

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2010, 08:04:00 pm »
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Lance:

"Athletes time to improve is limited, by the time they figure out that something they were doing is complete non sesne it may be too late.  They never get that time back."

Again this is another reason that for kids who are at home with body weight or just dumbbells will get more out of their training time with the compliment of the SF.

I see your youtube channel and the equipment and gym you have access to is top of the line.  SF or anything sub par is not even on our radar.  You train with a tendo...  And you probably live in the gym.

Your situation is the antithesis of someone who would most benefit from the Squat Flex.  Adarq as well.

All the kids you train or help out probably have access to a gym, and most of mine do to.

But there is maybe 15 - 25% who doesn't and won't. Period.  Believe it or not, they exist.  They have a small set of dumbells in their small apartment room, and that is it. 

Many more just don't want to go to the gym.. maybe they should, but they won't. 
And they just want something to make some progress on.

SF is an easy way for them.

They actually really enjoy using it.

It's not as good as the facility you have.. but for them it's fast, it's convenient, and it gets them progress.

zgin

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2010, 08:18:32 pm »
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As someone who has trained a few years and gotten some legitimate results, I just want to voice my opinion real quick:
People who "don't want to go to the gym" and/or people who excessively worry about convenience don't get results.  "Athletes"who say they want to improve power but only have 15 min a day, 2 days a week for training will never go anywhere. That seems to be the people who are in this so-called "Squat flex demographic". Adarq knows this, Jack W knows this,  and Jacob, I'm sure you know this as well: you need to be completely dedicated to achieve any success in vert training. You can't worry about the convenience or the fact that you don't feel like going to the gym. Training doesn't need to be the center of your life but you need to put your heart and soul into it to progress. The amount of work put in to gain as little as one inch is admirable. You cant BS your way through everything in the pursuit of convenience. 
37.5

LanceSTS

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2010, 08:32:10 pm »
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  Im not determined to find a villian in you man, I am seriously trying to understand your viewpoint.  It seems that you truly believe in it for certain situations and thats fine, I dont agree with it all but I am not going to bash you for something you honestly believe wether I believe its wrong or right.  

  Jack raised a great point about the power jumper, that would be a legit piece of equipment to add to someones training arsenal that could compliment many more things than the squatflex, but its not being promoted like the squatflex.  Why? well, imo its because they PRICE IT REASONABLY FOR WHAT IT IS, and no one is going to make a killing on the commissions or turnover on it.  

  You seem to agree that training with more traditional means like free weights + bands, barbells, dumbells, etc. is superior to the squatflex only, I think if you clarified that in your videos/promotions of it then people like myself would be alot more understanding of your view and not think of you in the same boat as the others making the ridiculous overhyped claims.  People will see those promotional videos and think its the golden ticket to jump training which we both know is very false.


 I respect that you wanted to clarify your reasoning and came here to do so, I still believe that there are much better and safer ways that people could spend their money and training time at home than buying a squatflex but like I said you are entitled to your beliefs as well and we can agree to disagree on the squatflex.  
Relax.

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2010, 08:45:12 pm »
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Power jumper...

I bought one to test it as well, thought I was going to recommend it pretty heavily.

But, i just didn't' take to it.  It felt awkward, and I just didn't get the feel for it.

Anyways, I left it at home.  Maybe I'll give it another go.

I don't know that it can provide the resistance as heavy as SF can but... I like the idea.

I tried to make it clear in my videos that "progressive resistance" wasn't unique to SF.

IMO - Squat Flex woud sell more with a lower price and make more money.

IMO - Their price isn't doing them good.. BUT they are a low volume unit.

Power Jumper is MUCH higher volume so their margins are way down.

You can get power jumper in a sporting goods store now.

As someone who has trained a few years and gotten some legitimate results, I just want to voice my opinion real quick:
People who "don't want to go to the gym" and/or people who excessively worry about convenience don't get results.  "Athletes"who say they want to improve power but only have 15 min a day, 2 days a week for training will never go anywhere. That seems to be the people who are in this so-called "Squat flex demographic". Adarq knows this, Jack W knows this,  and Jacob, I'm sure you know this as well: you need to be completely dedicated to achieve any success in vert training. You can't worry about the convenience or the fact that you don't feel like going to the gym. Training doesn't need to be the center of your life but you need to put your heart and soul into it to progress. The amount of work put in to gain as little as one inch is admirable. You cant BS your way through everything in the pursuit of convenience. 


I feel ya.. but I have seen people get results with SF + bodyweight at home.  Perhaps it's not the absolute ideal... but it fits their situation. 

I travel a TON so personally I'm always looking for tricks or easy ways to maintain or make a bit of progress until I can get a more ideal situation. 

I've lived in 17 different countries and in most of the countries it's tough for the average person to get into a gym AND much more expensive. The demographic is much bigger overseas... but it's sizable in US as well.

SF + SF ISOs (at lower ROM)+ BW + Plyos is a pretty decent routine to for just doing out of your room.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:01:00 pm by Jacob Hiller »

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2010, 08:54:45 pm »
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Honestly I'm impressed... I mean I'm still on the "shunned for life list" but I expected to get flamed out or ousted or whatever when I came, which didn't happen...

I appreciate that you allowed me to be open.

I think you see where I'm coming from, and I see where you are coming from.

I follow ADARQs vids pretty regular but this is my first venture over to the forum, and it's good.  It's one of the best forums for vert training, with an active community.

I haven't been to VS in a bit... you and Andrew put a ton of work in here - and it's not all hate ;)

Anyways not sure if this is the end of the debate, but I'll probably try and get a bit more acquainted with the forum here.




LanceSTS

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2010, 09:02:49 pm »
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  The deal with the power jumper was the accomodating resistance it provides, in a more natural range of motion than the squatflex does, for waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy less money, and they also have variable resistance bands going up to over 100lbs of tension per band.   Most these kids dont NEED to worry about accomodating resistance anyway, they need basic compound exercises and to work on their form for quite a while before advancing their training means.  

  I dont reccomend alot of the things I do with athletes in my training center to athletes online because I realize the limited equipment they have access to and also the fact that i am not present with them to make sure it is being done correctly.  Nothing pisses you off more than to see a method you use that has been proven extremely beneficial being butchered by some kid online because they dont have the athletic ability or training knowledge to do it correctly without a massive amount of help.  Same thing with the squatflex, guaranteed there are going to be alot of people with terrible form issues trying to do the hack squat on that thing because they guarantee that you will dunk if you do x number of bands that way.

 But like I said before, if you CLARIFIED THAT THERE WERE MORE EFFECTIVE TRAINING MEANS than doing the squatflex only in your videos/promotions, it would be a different case, that would ensure that kids who were training effectively didnt get derailed by all the overhyped claims.
Relax.

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2010, 09:15:01 pm »
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In my videos I think I clarify the issues... did you watch it all the way through?

I can go over them again... but I think they are clearly different then the hyped out stuff that is out there.

Personally I thought the approach was very open, and educationally turned, with VERY little hype.

We just talked about the benefits, and people decided whether it was worth it for for them and their situation to have those benefits.

I had personal contact with most of them and know that the majority are people doing it at home.

The other percentage are looking for a convenient easy workout to do when they are busy.

In my bonus series I teach them form, and I work with them as a group so they get it right.






LanceSTS

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2010, 09:15:58 pm »
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Honestly I'm impressed... I mean I'm still on the "shunned for life list" but I expected to get flamed out or ousted or whatever when I came, which didn't happen...

I appreciate that you allowed me to be open.

I think you see where I'm coming from, and I see where you are coming from.

I follow ADARQs vids pretty regular but this is my first venture over to the forum, and it's good.  It's one of the best forums for vert training, with an active community.

I haven't been to VS in a bit... you and Andrew put a ton of work in here - and it's not all hate ;)

Anyways not sure if this is the end of the debate, but I'll probably try and get a bit more acquainted with the forum here.





cool man, nobody is going to flame you for coming on here to defend your position on something you believe.   We may not agree but thats no reason to hate anybody and its respectable that you  wanted to clarify your reasoning.   Adarq will likely post his thoughts when he gets back on later tho so you may want to check back if you want to know his reasoning/viewpoints.  
Relax.

LanceSTS

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2010, 09:18:56 pm »
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In my videos I think I clarify the issues... did you watch it all the way through?

I can go over them again... but I think they are clearly different then the hyped out stuff that is out there.

Personally I thought the approach was very open, and educationally turned, with VERY little hype.

We just talked about the benefits, and people decided whether it was worth it for for them and their situation to have those benefits.

I had personal contact with most of them and know that the majority are people doing it at home.

The other percentage are looking for a convenient easy workout to do when they are busy.

In my bonus series I teach them form, and I work with them as a group so they get it right.







I have seen 2 videos, I dont remember you saying that squatflex was inferior to free weights/free weights+ bands/ other methods though, if you did i missed that part. 
Relax.

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2010, 09:19:25 pm »
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Powerjumper was just kind of awkward when I tried it.  It just didn't fly with me.

Conceptually I was pumped to try the power jumper, I thought it was going to give tons of lifts progressive resistance and the option to perform them with full triple ex... ballistic style.

But I just didn't like how it felt, and it didn't jive.

Perhaps I should give it another run.

Jacob Hiller

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2010, 09:21:15 pm »
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Cool, I'll be checking back in.  Gotta catch a flight tomorrow... it's 3:20 AM in Rome.

adarqui

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2010, 04:17:34 am »
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[/size]
 Nobody will flame you for coming on here and discussing your position on the squatflex, if you are really open minded about this issue then that is respectable.  Fwiw, I have tried to see the upside to it but when it all comes down to the wire the only real reason I can see for someone who understands performance training to reccomend it is money, plain and simple.  All these videos/emails/promotions are all coming out at the same time, that alone kind of cues you in on the fact that jump usa is giving some incentives (money, mailing lists, co promotion of products, etc.) to get their product out and sell lots of them.  Its getting near Christmas time and marketers know that kids can influence their parents to buy things for them.  If your video and promotion would have randomly came out at another time because you honestly believed that the squatflex was a good piece of equipment, that would be totally different. 

that is a pretty good point..



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  The price of that thing is insane for what it is, a kid could easily get a set of adjustable dumbells and do things like walking lunges, step ups, snatches, etc. (and 10,000 other exercises) that would benefit them alot more than doing deadlifts and hack squats on the squatflex and a WHOLE lot less money.  But jumpusa is not paying people to promote dumbells or things that have actually helped athletes, theyre paying them to promote equipment that they sell and made to make a killer profit on.  I strongly believe in using bands with free weights when the situation calls for it, but the bands on the squatflex are not some revolutionary idea jumpusa came up with, they use bands because the shipping on free weights would be unreasonable and they couldnt make nearly the profit they do by throwing together a stick and platform with some cheap bands as the sole means of resistance.

Exactly, jumpusa has yet to ever promote a solid training ideology, it's ALWAYS a gimmick. They make an insane amount of money off squatflex, thing probably costs < $30 to make, then they make money off selling the jumpstretch bands or whichever brand they use, it really has nothing to do with results.




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I agree with what you are saying about needing to lift explosively, the problem with that is how the hell is a kid gonna lift explosively on that thing?  There is a video earlier in this thread of a kid who has already hurt his back doing the hack squats with a controlled tempo, if he were attempting to lift explosively his form would be even worse and he would likely be injured to the point of not being able to train for a while. 

Alot the guys (and you too) who are marketing that thing have already made alot of money off selling these same impressionable kids things online which is fine and dandy, if you have a legit product getting paid for that is completely understood, the problem and the thing that angers us is when you use your influence over them to sell them something that may not only not help them and rip them off, but end up hurting them in the long run.  Lots of ppl look for easy, gimmicky ways to achieve their goals and ripping them off is one thing, but imagine a kid that is putting his heart and soul into his training, buying a squatflex because a "coach" he trusted recommended it to him, then getting hurt or wasting his valuable time in the process.  Athletes time to improve is limited, by the time they figure out that something they were doing is complete non sesne it may be too late.  They never get that time back. 

The same can be said for barbells except, there are vasts amount of resources illustrating proper barbell technique, progressions, etc. I've yet to see HEAVY BAND TENSION good form squatflex videos, nor will I ever. It's easy to load up one band and get into a nicer biomechanical position, but i'd love to see the horrible form breakdown that occurs with more bands, although I've seen that with the young kid and his hurt back.










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Lancests - Thanks man...

I see where you guys are coming from, I just see the usefulness of it in a very specific way.

But the thing is I'm not trying to pull kids out of the gym to use Squat Flex...

It's for a very specific crowd.

I consider almost a "niche" product for training at home period or for people pressed for time.

And for that I think it does provide an additional / superior training stimulus.

There may be someone, but EVERYONE I have talked to who bought Squat Flex is either

1. Pressed for time, and looking to do something at home.
 or
2. For whatever reason is going to train at home.


For these people I could just give them body weight work, or even some cool banded body weight exercises I made.

I could encourage them to get some at home equipment or to make time....

But in the end many of these people want to do it at home... and for that Squat Flex has it's use.



In the end I think they way and purpose of my promotion is different.

I didn't promote it as the "end all be all" like some others did.

I could see if a marketer was promoting that way how it would be misleading or taking advantage...



Maybe you don't see what I'm saying as being different...

I guess that's a key difference between us as coaches. I personally, and I most likely speak for lance, would prescribe bodyweight routines consisting of reactive progressions, sprinting, jumping, etc, until the trainee is able to gain access to barbells and/or dumbells. It's basically a "are you serious?" approach. For example, if I owned a performance facility and people were looking for 'short cuts' or prefer 'working out at home' and wanted me to write a program, I would kick them out of the facility. I don't for one second believe a SERIOUS adult athlete would not be able to access barbells or dumbells. I believe young gullible "kids" look for any excuse to work around what actually works, because what actually works, aint easy. So as I've said in my previous reply, I would NEVER advocate squatflex for young athletes due to:

- Inexperienced "athletes" should not be using band tension
- Form issues & coaching
- Lack of versatility of squatflex
- Cost compared to barbells/dumbells








[/size]
 I understand what youre saying man and youre definitely not promoting it in the same way as others have been, I just still cant get with the notion that you HONESTLY believe that the squatflex is a better option than something like buying a set of adjustable dumbells at wal mart and creating a progressive resistance program for them. 

x2 entirely



Quote
  Lets say that jumpusa was giving the same EXACT incentives, whatever it is that they are giving, to either promote the squatflex, or an adjustable dumbell set.   You as a coach choose which one you HONESTLY believe will lend better results for an athlete in the long run.  Note that the price to the customer is still the same, squatflex ~300$, dumbells ~75$.  Which one would you reccomend?

  With the dumbells you can do, walking lunges, reverse lunges, squats, front squats, deadlifts, romanian deadlifts, jump squats, swings, snatches, presses of all kinds, push jerks, toe raises, shoulder raises in all directions, bent rows, upright rows, curls, tricep extensions, pull overs, weighted abdominal work, etc.

With the squatflex you can do hack squats, deadlifts, shoulder raises, rows, and .....

But either way man, I'm not bashing your opinion on it if you HONESTLY believe that it has a use for some people to buy, I just know that there are much safer, cheaper, and more effective options for someone who wants to train at home and would hate to see someone who is really dedicated be mislead by something they believed in due to it being promoted for reasons other than it being a useful training method.













[/size]
That's a good question....

To cheat.. I'd recommend both... (I'll answer straight up below)

Squat Flex you can overload a straight leg dead lift or standard dead lift to 500 + pounds super easily.

You can easily challenge yourself at extremely high  amounts of tension, basically with Squat Flex you can max out...

AND you can reap some of the benefits of band training.  To me that's pretty great.

----- again we're talking about people only training from home   ------

And I think we underestimate just how many of those people there are.... 

Their are plenty of people training from home, many of them have power racks and barbells. Those people get STRONG. If you could please provide me with videos of a "transformation using squatflex" I'd be really interested, say someone who could barely dunk + their current "squatflex (lol)" at the time, then some after videos (after they make gains, and their squatflex progress).

Not ONE video exists, this piece of crap tool has been around for a long time, hell Luke Lowery (Master Scammer) is the one who basically "invented it" to tap into the home-gym market and sell a pile of crap :)

There has never been a squatflex transformation and i'm pretty sure their never will be, i'd love to see it though (if form is good).






Quote
In my community alone there are literally thousands and thousands who simply want to train from home, and many of them have a small set of dumbbells.

Are those people serious? Plenty of people train from home and buy the ab lounge etc, those people aren't serious, they go nowhere.




Quote
Even close friends and family of mine, they just will not be "gym goers" for reasons I don't really get... I love the gym, the fraternity, the competition... the social aspect... I can't get enough of it.

Those people have no business squatflexing though, i don't get your point?





Quote
But many people including family and friends of mine, just wont' go.. and their not "junkies" like me... but they were very interested in the idea of using the Squat Flex and the convenience aspect of it.

Sounds like they would be better off with a safer bodyweight training routine than loading up on band tension. If you are not SERIOUS then band tension is extra dangerous and unnecessary. We're talking about athletes, not regular joes. Regular joes have no business dabbling in squatflex, especially heavy tension isos at the bottom or loading up considerable band tension through a ROM.




Quote
I also find that a great deal of these people are "small apartment" people.  They live in small quarters... they actually tell me this.

... anyways

To me Squat Flex is a great compliment to a small easy set of dumbbells that can be used in single leg work.

To me ...For the demographic it's best for.... and for jumping and maximal strength.. I'd rather have someone have the Squat Flex, and use a heavy back pack, or the bands, or other means of external resistance for the one leg work.

For someone like you... I'd probably say the dumbells.. because I know you are going to put the work in to it.

But most people have a set of dumbbells (albeit not great) and are considering the Squat Flex as a compliment.

I also think it's important to understand these are not people like you...

You (and other here) are people who are going to get it done.  Highly dedicated, routine...

Many of the Squat Flex folks are just looking for ease and convenience, while still yielding some decent training results.

So let's recommend "noobs" a piece of equipment that can EASILY be loaded up with way too much band tension? See I just keep coming back to this fact, I don't get it one bit.

If someone is looking for ease & convenience they should partake in Yoga, imo. People who take shortcuts using gimmicks to improve maximal strength are the ones who usually get hurt.





Quote
Before I even promoted it, I had people using it, and I worked with them personally to create a program with it and use it from home - and they enjoyed the work... and got decent results.

Like what? Curious.




Quote
I think when you are looking at the Squat Flex (could be wrong) you are asking... Is this the best piece of equipment for vertical jump training?

But when I look at it.. I'm thinking... can this be a tool of some value for a certain demographic of my community.  To me the answer is easily yes...

Is it for everyone?  No, and I tell them so.

I even have some people who have access and ARE gym goers but like using it for quick workouts when they get busy.  An easy way to keep progress up.

Again I'm not saying SF is holy grail here.

But for the people who it IS a fit for... they really love it.

Me (when I'm actually home haven't been home in a year...) I go to the gym, but I like to hope on it and see if I can get to the next band level...  It's a fun challenge to overcome - and it friggin tough.

When I was experimenting with it...

At the time I got it, I was dead lifting about 485 lbs but I think I couldn't load the SF completely up.

I was home for about a month maybe 2, and supplemented with the SF just for giggles, and my VJ and DL went up, and I went up on how many bands I could do.  When I left the US I was up to 515 on deadlift.

Anyways... I don't think I see it the way you do... I also don't think I see it the way it is marketed (by others)...

Nice results yourself.




Quote
What I would prefer to recommend is an elitefts.com band platform, a barbell, and start loading up on plates...  but now we're talking pricey.. and it's not going to going to work for peoples in home gym setup... (for most of these people).

It's easy to setup bands though, you don't need a platform. It really isn't pricey at all, barbell + 300 lb plates is similar cost to the discounted squatflex, add bands, and you have it for much less than the normal asking price.. It's very easy to setup bands on the bar without a special platform, I posted a ton of pics in another thread or this one, i forget.

peace













[/size]
Adarq - Thanks for letting me come in.  After checking out your forum it's actually pretty active which is cool.  I like your slow mo calculator.. I use "MySpeed" for that which is pretty cool.

thanks man, glad you like it.



Quote
I still think we're just looking at it's uses differently.

I'm describing to you a demographic who will enjoy using the Squat Flex... and you are not in it.

That demographic shouldn't be using squatflex, that's my point. You market squatflex to vertical jump trainees in general, of course you tell them it's not for them if they have access to a gym etc, but, the "quick results/gimmick addicted" community, which consists mainly of young athletes, are going to be all over squatflex. Sure, that's not your fault, but, again, inexperienced athletes shouldn't be using rapidly increasing band tension, especially on a squatflex.




Quote
But in my community alone there are thousands who fit in that category, and for them they love and benefit from using Squat Flex.

No matter what we say or think, these people are not going to be regular gym goers.  It's just not on their radar.  That group of people is larger then I once thought.  I interact with these folks all the time.

Those people will buy anything to "get a fix", they never go anywhere, that's just the truth. Instead of promoting squatflex to them, I'd personally tell them to man up and get serious, otherwise, don't waste your time, go have fun playing pickup games at the same level of athleticism until andropause kicks in.





Quote
Some exercises I showed with Squat flex...

Straight leg DL, Romanian DL, isometric holds, front squat (requires longer bands), hack squat (don't really like it), shrugs, front raise, side / lateral raise, curl variations, bent over rows, up right rows, tricep extensions... 

I'm beginning to think that I see it as a tool for a specific use...

A use which you might agree with bit don't think is justified, or worth the money, OR of course.. just get a gym (which IMO is a mute point to this particular group).

I'm also beginning to think that I don't market this or see it in the same way some of the other marketers do...

Regardless, I'm stuck on the "shunned for life" list.

Well, if you market squatflex to the "athletic improvement" community, then you're doing a disservice. Aspiring athletes need to be taught solid, effective methods. There's nothing other than "what really works and has always worked". We can't just create little niche products for them to give them something to "entertain themselves with". This is what ruins the art of s&c. People want to come up with all types of products to make a buck, promoting it as the next miracle strength/power cure, but none of it ever works in creating real athletes. These transformations do not exist and never will. So these people should be told to "get lost" for a while until they are ready to commit, have them focus on other aspects of training in order to improve in the skill department per-se, conditioning, sprinting, bodyweight, etc... If they do not commit to a solid & effective, yet difficult method of training, then they should not be given a fork in the road that leads to nowhere.







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O well.. at least I don't get flamed, except for that guy who called me the devil.

he was kidding, pretty sure of it, because you said you might get flamed etc.










It just keeps coming back to "get in a gym" which by in large is just not the people this is a fit for.

I asked Jump USA about their own market, and they also get a strong majority of people who WANT to do everything from home.... and (in my case) these are people who don't have a garage or a yard or room (or budget) for building their own gym in house.

Jumpusa's market is full of scammed athletes, who never make any progress.. Of course they want to workout from home, jumpusa markets them squatflex/jumpsoles/whatever else, they don't market "get your ass in a gym and get strong."... heh.









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LUKE LOWERY
jacob hiller
alex maroko
adam linkenauger


please give me more names, this list is pretty much the list that shuns you for life.

pc

I think hiller is brining up some good points. Why do you have to say that disagreeing with you means banished/shunned/hated?

could you change that last sentence??

I personally don't think he's bringing up good points, squatflex is not an effective "home gym" alternative.

Shit, for $497, why not just spend a few extra bucks and get a bowflex? Same type of piece of crap.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=bowflex+price&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5437528822055704048&ei=dh8LTdq0NoP88AbIw7WWDg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQ8gIwAQ#

Bottom line, squatflex is marketed to young kids.. YOUNG KIDS.. not Adult athletes looking for a training alternative.. IT IS MARKETED TO YOUNG KIDS, MOST OF WHICH ARE LOOKING FOR SHORTCUTS AND WILL USE HORRIBLE FORM, ADD WAY TOO MUCH BAND TENSION, ETC.

Look at the pics/example use of some "kid" using it, in this thread or wherever it is.. round backed, ugly, wearing a belt, hurt, going nowhere.

I can't take Hiller off the "squatflex promotion list" because he in fact promoted it.

I would guarantee you that the vast majority of the squatflex clientele, those who buy it, are from the ages of 13-17.

........









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"Those who truly lack a gym can make use of plenty of other methods before turning to squatflex, BUT, those who truly lack access to a gym/weights are very rare."

I disagree...

Again.. I think this is being very underestimated.

One of the top questions I get for The Jump Manual is... can I do this at home without weights.

I have TONS of people who I give body weight workouts to at home.  Is there a way to get them to a gym.. maybe.. but the fact is... for some reason, they WANT / WILL train at home.

I'm talking thousands of people in my small group, and millions outside of my group.

Workouts to do from home is probably in the top 10 of questions / requests I get.

Most people who "exercise" go nowhere. Most people looking to improve athleticism or body image, go nowhere. 60+% of Americans are obese. The vast majority of people will fail to follow through with their new years resolutions within 2 weeks.

The list goes on and on, excuses have no place in s&c. True cases are very rare.

If you truly prefer to workout at home & improve athleticism, you get a rack and/or barbells/dumbells. That's just the way it's always been done, and will always be done.

Let's look at people who own multi-gyms/bowflex/abchairs vs those who own power racks/barbells, I mean, let's really look at these types of people. Who do you think is serious? Who do you think actually trains? Who do you think actually makes progress?

There is no community for failure in my opinion, thus methods that are anything less than the most effective, are mostly a waste of time.










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Hi Jacob

talk about walking into the lions den here at adarq.org mate! As always though, you have shown the patience and class I have come to know and respect from you. I just wanted to say kudos for that.

x2




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I still think Lance was onto it earlier with a set of adjustable dumbbells is the way to go for home trainers though. You can buy 2 x 40kg (88 pounds for you US folks) for much less than a squat flex and use them for  damn near everything. Sure you don't get the accommodating resistance, but there have been many, many athletes the world over who have made tremendous gains without accommodating resistance - and I say that as someone who uses bands of various types all the time.

Actually, it just occurred to me that if people were super duper keen to get the benefits of accommodating resistence they could buy some adjustable dumbells and a power jumper and still have money left in their pockets. And you can squat, deadlift, lunge AND do a whole bunch of jumping drills with that thing. Just saying.

Cheers

Jack

First hit, bowflex selecttech, $300, up to 50 lb each hand:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,20782,27558,27642&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=bowflex+selecttech+buy&cp=22&qe=Ym93ZmxleCBzZWxlY3R0ZWNoIGJ1eQ&qesig=KnW_mfMo1vLXvUqD88Qy0Q&pkc=AFgZ2tkRXaLRW1w3qIjOaJrwhiJ3RRmY_cM5kvS5_gPxC4S1yp9nDBeIE8Vn2U9I2YhzbSoBeugLkKf37EYB-_5JnwGqvILSxw&client=firefox-a&hs=lKr&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=4182483627508312452&ei=UCILTd2hA8P68AaM5aGQDg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ8gIwAg#











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  If you really used it and felt that you had some significant gains then you are entitled to your opinion on it, it just makes me skeptical when I never heard or saw anything about this until the big promotion of it comes out around Christmas time with all of the other people promoting it too.  I also dont believe that "both" is a legitimate answer, obviously someone could buy a squat rack and barbell for that amount of money and wouldnt neccessarily NEED either one. 


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  But if you really do believe in it and use it yourself with good gains in performance, why wait until theyre promoting it hard core to all of the sudden talk about it?  Maybe you have other videos or have reccomended it that I dont see?  The EXACT exercise that they made it for is not one you like, so whats more likely, this thing has tons of untapped potential that the designers overlooked, or people are reaching for ways to validate it as a useful piece of equipment?


imo, it is the latter.. They just never got anyone as bright as Hiller to promote it lol. A-link, Maroko, etc didn't dare try and justify squatflex. A-link's reasoning was similar to Hiller's, the "if you don't have access to anything and can only train from home", but we all know it's about the $$.



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  The group that is being marketed to is obviously not primarily older, more experienced athletes, its young impressionable ones that dont need half of the things its being said to do, they need progressive resistance with free weights and compound exercises.  If someone had been training for a while and needed a way to tie bands on a deadlift there are many many options besides spending 300$ on that thing.  There is just no justification in my mind for it and its obviously par for the course with their other products and promoted material, with false promises and hype. 

x2

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But like I said, if you truly believe in a product and are not promoting it simply for monetary gain regardless of wether it is legit or not then I dont think you should be hated for it, I just think that you may be overlooking some serious issues like injuries and false hope that come with something like that. We could take 2 16 yr old kids, train one with squatflex, one with dumbells (for less than half the money), and I  would bet the house the 2nd kid would get vastly superior results.

Agree, but we can't overlook the fact that he's considering it a viable alternative for "people (athletes) who prefer training at home", many of which are young kids. IMO, coaches who truly care about ATHLETIC results would make it a point to hammer-home the idea that more effective training is absolutely necessary.

If squatflex cost $30 i'd still call it a piece of shit and never recommend it to inexperienced athletes.










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I just wanted to say I really respect everyone weighing in on this topic - Lance, Jacob, Andrew...I am not trying to be confrontational or anything, but I think that calling Jacob "The Devil" is way out of line and immature.  Jacob has been very helpful to me and is a knowledgeable trainer.  I also think his views on the SquatFlex are different from that of JumpUSA. 

I personally would not trust JumpUSA as far as I could throw them, but if Jacob says that there could be some benefits to the SquatFlex I would believe him.  Conversely, I believe what Lance says as well, namely that there are other methods of training and those methods are superior. 

The only points I want to make are:

1.  Jacob's knowledge of vertical jump training is vast and he has helped countless athletes improve their verticals.
2.  JumpUSA makes ridiculous claims and that Jacob does not assert the same exact claims.
3.  I fail to see how making childish comments, such as calling Jacob "the Devil" advances the discussion on this topic whatsoever.


Edit - I read Lance's comment about being skeptical about never hearing about Squatflex before and I think this is a legitimate concern.  Not that anyone cares what I think ^ ^

Agreed, though LBSS was clearly joking, a "rude welcome out of jest".







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For general exercise the dumbells are versatile...

Lance's question was a very interesting hypothetical question, but I find most of these at home people already have some dumbbells, and Squat Flex addition is just a compliment to their at home setup.

Those people at home aren't lunging with 90's... I'd take db walking lunges/BSS/calf raise/rows/press/squat with very heavy db's over squatflex any day of the week.



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To me the coolest part of Squat Flex is being able to max out on these compound lifts very conveniently... again mostly for people not going to hit a gym.

"convenience" and "max out" don't belong in the same sentence. You can't "conveniently" max out. If you're maxing out any point along the strength curve, that is considerable & risky tension, regardless of the means.




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And I'm assuming Jack that you also get a considerable demographic who simply wants to train from home and / or without weights.

And as much as I like single leg lifts, with dumbbells, I find that people belly up to the Squat Flex easier then they do the one leg lifts.  It's just so easy.

Without single leg lifts the dumbbells are easy to max out.

Let me give another example... I have a kid who has money... so money wasn't the problem.  And he just wanted the easiest workout to continue building max strength - from home.


Is he going to use it and like it and benefit from it.. doing the SF and the at home single leg stuff...  yes.

In my opinion the debate we are carrying on here, is different from the original debate, and one worth considering for this particular demographic...

I'm not here to hype this thing up, up but I find that it has a use, especially for this particular group.

I see myself still recommending it to their situation.

It's not the focus of my program, or the revolution of jump training in and of itself.  But for for a certain situations it's a nice tool to continue to make progress... an for those people, that is value.


why would you recommend squatflex to someone who has the money? Shouldn't this kid be getting strong ALL OVER using dumbells/barbells/pullups/dips/etc? Plus, the term "kid" already turns me off about it.. If he's inexperienced to any degree, then he will make far greater gains using isolation/multi joint exercises using barbells/dumbells with perfect form and safely progressing the overload over a longer period of time.










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Thanks Cloud...  appreciate that.

.. The Lions Den [Jack W. reference] ...

BTW - Jack people are much more reasonable then I had thought.

I think it comes down to honesty. A lot of the angrier posts relate to dishonest marketing tactics and hype. In your case you have promoted something that without a doubt has been the subject to that special JumpUSA marketing magic. This naturally raises peoples ire.

However you have expressed to me in the past, as well as here now that while you don't agree with the marketing you have an honest opinion that for certain people it can provide a solution. You won't ever convince everybody, and Lance does raise some good points about the timing of your Squat Flex promotion, but I give you the benefit of the doubt because you also expressed this same opinion to me about SF months ago.

Cheers

Jack

A problem here, no matter how hard Hiller defends himself and his beliefs, is that he is promoting a product that was born from scammers and liars (jumpusa/lowery). This company does not promote effective training, if they did, they'd be out of business (ironic isn't it). So unfortunately, jumpusa's tarnished image begins to rub off on Hiller because of the squatflex issue. I'm just saying that from an outside perspective... It's like teaming up with maroko, no matter what he puts out, he's still a scammer at heart, so regardless of how effective flyingin4 actually is, when you team up with the likes of maroko and company, it tarnishes your image. The same goes for jumpusa, and, interestingly enough, everyone here is linked together to dominate the "vertical jump market".

lol








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Lance said:

" If you really used it and felt that you had some significant gains then you are entitled to your opinion on it, it just makes me skeptical when I never heard or saw anything about this until the big promotion of it comes out around Christmas time with all of the other people promoting it too.  I also dont believe that "both" is a legitimate answer, obviously someone could buy a squat rack and barbell for that amount of money and wouldnt neccessarily NEED either one. "

I can respect that skepticism... my own gains on it aren't why I am promoting it.  Although I should have mentioned them, but was mostly caught up in the educational side of it.

"Both" is not a legitimate answer, but further down I thought I gave a more legitimate answer.

 "But if you really do believe in it and use it yourself with good gains in performance, why wait until theyre promoting it hard core to all of the sudden talk about it?  Maybe you have other videos or have reccomended it that I dont see?  The EXACT exercise that they made it for is not one you like, so whats more likely, this thing has tons of untapped potential that the designers overlooked, or people are reaching for ways to validate it as a useful piece of equipment?"

I wanted to promote it as soon as I tested it and liked it..

Interesting.




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BUT, I also knew it was controversial and although i feel my reasons for promoting are legit, I felt that I would be demonized by this group.

I don't keep up with "them" and when they are "marketing it hardcore"  ...

They asked me if I wanted to offer it for the discounted price, and I thought it was time.

I also felt it would take considerable effort and time (which it did) becuase it would be a lot of education about the use of the thing.

LAnce said:

"The EXACT exercise that they made it for is not one you like, so whats more likely, this thing has tons of untapped potential that the designers overlooked, or people are reaching for ways to validate it as a useful piece of equipment?"

Again, I don't feel they market it well, and I feel that it has many uses they don't promote. 

Lance, don't take me wrong here, but for me to market it and not believe it had value, would be horrible for me.  Even if I made a few bucks or even thousands in the long run it would hurt me IMO.

I'm not a SF fanatic, but I think it has benefit for the home group I have been talking about which is a significant population in my community.

Most of them getting it are ADDING it to their little home dumbell set.

I believe.. give me a kid with dumbbells, and give me a kid with dumbbells and the Squat Flex... and we'll out perform the ugly with just the dumbbells.

Possibly, but give me a kid with dumbells, then add barbells or heavier dumbells, and you just shat all over lighter dumbells + squatflex.




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Your hypothetical question was interesting, but it does represent the reality of the group I'm talking about.

I asked my support staff if one of the most asked questions was about doing the workout from home, and it was clearly a "top 10" concern.

Loads of people say... can I do this at home.. and many of those say.. all I have is a small dumbbell set.

Exactly, many of these trainees are inexperienced, weak, and young, of course they have very light dumbell sets etc. If they continue the path and get strong using progressively heavier dumbells (spending the money to get that), they'd be on a far better path than squatflex + light dumbells.





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If your questioning my sincerity or character... i can't do much more then give you my word.

But on a side note, if I am convinced that Squat Flex is not of value for that group, I would never promote it... no problem.

I almost didn't promote it anyways, and I believed it was of value... I knew there would be backlash, but I also knew that lots of people would actually use and benefit from SF.

To me it feels like you are determined to find a villain in me for thinking Squat Flex of some value, but to me it just doesn't seem that crazy.

I don't think that at all, about lance. He's determined to promote effective training methods that have been around since the 60's and 70's, that which still dominate the industry today in terms of effectiveness, but are DOMINATED by gimmicks and ineffective training in terms of usage.





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I don't think you know me man... I give a lot of my time and self to the kids, athletes, parents, and coaches I work with.  It's my passion, it's my life... probably like it is for you.

nice.









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Jack - I agree... and it's true you knew my thoughts about Squat Flex long before I promoted.

But.. I really don't get the point about the "timing" of my launch...

Doing a review or promo about it has been "on the back burner" for a while... partly held at bay because I knew i'd have to do a lot of explaining and people would think I was "one of the "others"...

They contacted me and asked if I wanted to do the promotion for the reduced price...
 
I thought.. time to get it over with... then I came up with the educational format so that people would understand.

I don't understand how timing makes me suspect... really.. maybe I'm missing the point.

Speaking from an outside perspective, timing makes you "suspect" because of jumpusa's history, in getting Adam Linkenauger & Alex Maroko and company to market it last x-mas, just like they do every year. A-link and maroko both know it's a piece of shit and market it... so that's how it makes you "suspect" in terms of the timing, it's been done every year. Jumpusa likes to hop on the backs of "respectable" people and ride their coat tales, same as maroko, it's how the dirty achieve temporary legitimacy.










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I just realized how the "insert quote" works. <---- noob

wish you would have found that earlier :) loolololo












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Lance:

"Athletes time to improve is limited, by the time they figure out that something they were doing is complete non sesne it may be too late.  They never get that time back."

Again this is another reason that for kids who are at home with body weight or just dumbbells will get more out of their training time with the compliment of the SF.

I see your youtube channel and the equipment and gym you have access to is top of the line.  SF or anything sub par is not even on our radar.  You train with a tendo...  And you probably live in the gym.

Your situation is the antithesis of someone who would most benefit from the Squat Flex.  Adarq as well.

All the kids you train or help out probably have access to a gym, and most of mine do to.

But there is maybe 15 - 25% who doesn't and won't. Period.  Believe it or not, they exist.  They have a small set of dumbells in their small apartment room, and that is it. 

Many more just don't want to go to the gym.. maybe they should, but they won't. 
And they just want something to make some progress on.

SF is an easy way for them.

easy, don't want... Those words don't exist in true athletic transformations, those clients need to understand this concept: It aint easy, we don't give a shit what you "want", train using barbells/dumbells. If they can't understand that, then they fall into the group of failures who spend money and get nowhere, just the type of people jumpusa target.


Like I've said in my previous post in this thread, loading up those kinds of people (usually young) with "maximal band tension" is a recipe for disaster.




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They actually really enjoy using it.

It's not as good as the facility you have.. but for them it's fast, it's convenient, and it gets them progress.











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As someone who has trained a few years and gotten some legitimate results, I just want to voice my opinion real quick:
People who "don't want to go to the gym" and/or people who excessively worry about convenience don't get results.  "Athletes"who say they want to improve power but only have 15 min a day, 2 days a week for training will never go anywhere. That seems to be the people who are in this so-called "Squat flex demographic". Adarq knows this, Jack W knows this,  and Jacob, I'm sure you know this as well: you need to be completely dedicated to achieve any success in vert training. You can't worry about the convenience or the fact that you don't feel like going to the gym. Training doesn't need to be the center of your life but you need to put your heart and soul into it to progress. The amount of work put in to gain as little as one inch is admirable. You cant BS your way through everything in the pursuit of convenience. 

[/b]

beyond x2.








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Cool, I'll be checking back in.  Gotta catch a flight tomorrow... it's 3:20 AM in Rome.

rome?????? awesome






this post took 1 hour and 5 minutes.

fml.

zgin

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2010, 05:36:35 am »
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^^^ that is admirable quoting
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Raptor

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Re: "Coaches" (lol) who promote squatflex - The list you never want to be on
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2010, 06:21:55 am »
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this post took 1 hour and 5 minutes.
fml.

I was really wondering about that. FML stands for...? Fuck my life?