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Members Area => CALL EM OUT => Topic started by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 06:02:00 am

Title: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 06:02:00 am
(Disclaimer: There is no way I can prove 100% these posts were from Kelly Baggett, but considering the age is the same and the posts have a link to his personal website in the signature, I think it is more than reasonable to assume they are by him. Also, I am not sure if Kelly was prescribed any of these drugs by a doctor, but the posts in question show signs of serious drug abuse for not only himself, but possibly for athletes he has trained. These posts were on the forums Anabolicminds.com and Mindandmuscle.net between the years 2002-2005. Again, I am not 100% sure these posts were done by Kelly Baggett)


This Call Out is a bit different than most. Although I do have my doubts, this call out is not doubting the jumping ability of Kelly Baggett, the marketing for any of his programs or the quality of any of his work. This "call out" is about Kelly's usage of performance enhancing drugs and other drugs.

I was browsing through Anabolic Minds and I was shocked to find this post by a user named KellyB. Considering the user is 37 years old,  it got my curious.

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6788/kellyb1.png)

Here the User KellyB is admitting to usage of RX Testosterone (mainly used for hormone therapy and not performance enhancement, but it's still something) and a prohormone known as 4-AD. Seeing this post upset me, because Kelly Baggett is a very reputable poster on athletic training/weight lifting forums, and his own personal story of increasing his vertical jump from 23 inches to 42 is inspiring to many. The fact that it was possibly tainted by drug use made me angry. I decided to look into this more, and to be honest, Kelly Baggett's own vertical jump became the least of my concerns.

I was shocked to find more posts by Kellyb, talking about even more pro hormone use

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/4674/kellyb2.png)

Obviously, being curious, I looked at every post of KellyB on anabolic minds

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/4799/kellyb3.png)
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9710/kellyb4.png)

Just more admission of different Pro Hormone Use. While disappointing, pro hormones are legal; but for someone who is inspiring to athletes, it is very heart breaking. I found one more post that blew my mind.

(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7559/kellyb5.png)

Now I am not accusing anyone of anything, but the fact that KellyB is asking about how long a drug will stay in an athletes system alarms me, especially considering this guy is training athletes. I'll let you draw your own conclusions about that, because I do not want to risk falsely accusing anyone of anything.


After Seeing the posts on Anabolic Minds, I decided to check other "steroid" sites I knew. Kelly Baggett (assumingly), is an avid poster on Mind and Muscle. Some of his older posts shocked me

On the forum, one athlete asked how to pass a drug test even though he took the PED ephedrine. KellyB responded
(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8190/kellyb10.png)

It's disappointing that a S/C coach is helping some kid cheat the system.









Another post I saw that confused me was that apparently KellyB was obese.

(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2219/kellyb17.png)

Never heard this in his stories.

The fact that KellyB formerly was obese explains a lot of his other posts on the forum (which I will show you). Take a look at some of these. It seems like he may have some serious body image issues.

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4197/kellyb7.png)

T3 is a very dangerous drug. It's synthetic thyroid hormone that's used by hardcore bodybuilders to lose weight.

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8231/kellyb11.png)

In this post he is talking about his mother using T3/T4. Not sure if she (or kelly himself) is prescribed these drugs, but seems kind of fishy.

(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6920/kellyb19.png)
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8994/kellyb12.png)
(http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/1451/kellyb13.png)
(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4689/kellyb15.png)
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5250/kellyb18.png)

Alright, just more posts of him admitting to (legal) performance enhancing drugs and other stuff. It seems like KellyB has serious body image issues to be using all of this stuff.


(http://i52.tinypic.com/eu244y.png)
In this one, KellyB is pretty much saying you need drugs to diet. What kind of S/C coach is saying stuff like this?

But I was shocked, seriously, to find this one post
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/6479/kellyb6.png)

In this post he is talking about abusing anti depressants. Not only is he taking them, he is snorting them. This makes me very concerned, as these are signs of drug abuse.

I think the posts speak for themselves so I don't have a lot to say. I'm not saying KellyB used PEDs to get his vert, but him using them really does put a taint on his accomplishments. But this isn't even about them. It really seems like KellyB has serious body image issues and potential drug abuse issues.

Feel free to discuss this. I ask that you keep it respectful. I would also like a response from Kelly either confirming or denying all that was said here. This post is not about Kelly's association with Alex Maroko. I've expressed my disappointment in that already.



Ref:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/search.php?searchid=5418020

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15998&st=0&p=227850&hl=kellyb&fromsearch=1&#entry227850

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showuser=123
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 06:35:24 am
Blown away, wtf?

As for the pics being small, people who want to read them will need to learn how to zoom in on their browsers, on mac this is usually %+ to zoom in and then %- to zoom out. For windows, unsure.

Anyway, if there is any good that comes out of this, it will be KellyB's truthful response on these issues & how it affected him. I mean, it makes alot more sense now given his knee/joint issues if what has been posted is true. From the posts above and from the links provided, it actually seems like the kellyb mentioned above is an "addict", addicted to steroids, prohormones, hormones for fat loss, herbal crap, and pretty much everything under the sun, it's as if he has "tried everything", like a lab rat of sorts. Snorting anti depressants? What the f**k? There's alot more info in the links provided if anyone is interested, it really is hundreds of posts regarding steroid/prohormone/hormone/herbal usage, fat loss, and occasionally defeating drug testing. The comment about "not even trying to diet without anabolic assistance" is particularly crazy, wtf? Taking t3 for fat loss wtf? I really hope he's clean of any of that shit, but I remember I had shown kb's latspread pic and some other pic to a coach who knows alot about roids/ped's, not even thinking about that angle, and the first thing he said was "looks like he just came off a cycle of .... ", I laughed thinking b.s., ...

I urge anyone reading this thread to never dabble in PED's/roids/<insert_chemical_here> etc. Seriously, enjoy the journey but stay clean, you'll be alot healthier for it. Also, this shit is hard work, if you're clean - performance gains come slowly -> but you can achieve an amazing transformation if you put in hard work and realize it's a long road, taking the "easy route" could very well cause serious issues, especially if you "think you know what you're doing but actually don't".

Anyway don't know what else to say yet, curious to see the response.

peace
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 08, 2011, 09:31:45 am
Taken was a terrible fucking movie, JC. Terrible.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 10:55:27 am
1.  First off people change a lot -- even if this is the same kellyb his ideas and thoughts towards steroids could have changed...

2.  Secondly, in my opinion there is nothing wrong about steroids/other performance enhancers.

they are a huge taboo subject and this is because the 50 year long witch hunt that has taken place in the government.
they should be legal and they could help many people live longer, healthier, and happier lives.
unless you over-use they shouldn't cause health problems at all.

as verkhoshansky famously said, "nature has provided man with the possiblity to enhance his abilities in extreme situations, and we need to utilize it in the training of the high class athlete"

this could be extended to peds... they are just another tool
just like weight training and plyometrics they can help you perform better than you naturally could.


Lastly, as Charlie Francis said, in the olympics, if you want to see the athletes who do not use ped's just look at who came in last...
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: mattyg35 on March 08, 2011, 01:04:05 pm
About being obese, I believe he was referring to the person he was talking to. I don't think he was speaking in the first-person.
Quote
but being a formerly obese person coming down you...
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 01:17:18 pm
About being obese, I believe he was referring to the person he was talking to. I don't think he was speaking in the first-person.
Quote
but being a formerly obese person coming down you...

True. Need some clarification from kelly
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 02:03:16 pm
1.  First off people change a lot -- even if this is the same kellyb his ideas and thoughts towards steroids could have changed...

x2



Quote
2.  Secondly, in my opinion there is nothing wrong about steroids/other performance enhancers.

Well if you read KB's posts on those forums, there's definitely something wrong steroids/ped's if you're using hardcore thyroid hormones to cut weight and you're already light + snorting ped's, then it's a major problem. Nothing says "healthy" about those posts imo.



Quote
they are a huge taboo subject and this is because the 50 year long witch hunt that has taken place in the government.
they should be legal and they could help many people live longer, healthier, and happier lives.
unless you over-use they shouldn't cause health problems at all.

When they are abused they are the antithesis of "live longer, healthier, and happier lives".



Quote
as verkhoshansky famously said, "nature has provided man with the possiblity to enhance his abilities in extreme situations, and we need to utilize it in the training of the high class athlete"

this could be extended to peds... they are just another tool
just like weight training and plyometrics they can help you perform better than you naturally could.

verkhoshansky's work regarding shock/stim/supermethods and that quote you mentioned was to try and provide effective means of training that did not require PED's.. verk's quote is anti ped's, ie, nature has provided us already with the tools, there is no need to dope up, it's stated in supermethods and within many of verk's texts/on the forum.





Quote
Lastly, as Charlie Francis said, in the olympics, if you want to see the athletes who do not use ped's just look at who came in last...

R.I.P

Much respect to CF, but he was a cheater & promoted cheating. Statements like his do a disservice to the sport, because for all we know tyson gay could be entirely clean, so to could be usain bolt, though I have my doubts. Bottom line, it's easy for "cheaters" to justify what they have done to try and save face. Drug testing will continue to improve but gene doping will pretty much put an end to all hopes of a natural competitive field.

peace
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 08, 2011, 02:52:18 pm
Much respect to CF, but he was a cheater & promoted cheating. Statements like his do a disservice to the sport, because for all we know tyson gay could be entirely clean, so to could be usain bolt, though I have my doubts. Bottom line, it's easy for "cheaters" to justify what they have done to try and save face. Drug testing will continue to improve but gene doping will pretty much put an end to all hopes of a natural competitive field.

peace

Really well put. You're right, under the current rules PEDs are not allowed, and those that do use them are breaking the rules. That is, they're cheating. Doesn't matter how widespread it is, they're still gaining an unfair advantage over those who refuse to cheat. Some would argue that Charlie Francis and other coaches who promote or facilitate PED use among elite athletes are simply realists, that in order to give their athletes the best chance of winning in a competitive environment where cheating is prevalent, they have to play the game. They're probably right -- what do I know, I'm no elite athlete or coach -- but it doesn't make the cheating any less unethical.

All that being said, I'm personally of the opinion that PEDs should be allowed if they can be shown to be reasonably safe. As JC said, they're just another tool for enhancing performance, like Tiger Woods' lasik surgery or lighter spikes for the track. I'm not philosophically opposed to them. Any line that's drawn between "legal" and "illegal" PEDs is arbitrary, so it seems lie people who argue against "PED" use are just drawing an imaginary line in the sand based on their own prejudices.

Is albuterol a PED? What if you're asthmatic? What if you're really mildly asthmatic?
What about ritalin?
What about caffeine?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 03:04:22 pm
Much respect to CF, but he was a cheater & promoted cheating. Statements like his do a disservice to the sport, because for all we know tyson gay could be entirely clean, so to could be usain bolt, though I have my doubts. Bottom line, it's easy for "cheaters" to justify what they have done to try and save face. Drug testing will continue to improve but gene doping will pretty much put an end to all hopes of a natural competitive field.

peace

Really well put. You're right, under the current rules PEDs are not allowed, and those that do use them are breaking the rules. That is, they're cheating. Doesn't matter how widespread it is, they're still gaining an unfair advantage over those who refuse to cheat. Some would argue that Charlie Francis and other coaches who promote or facilitate PED use among elite athletes are simply realists, that in order to give their athletes the best chance of winning in a competitive environment where cheating is prevalent, they have to play the game. They're probably right -- what do I know, I'm no elite athlete or coach -- but it doesn't make the cheating any less unethical.

All that being said, I'm personally of the opinion that PEDs should be allowed if they can be shown to be reasonably safe. As JC said, they're just another tool for enhancing performance, like Tiger Woods' lasik surgery or lighter spikes for the track. I'm not philosophically opposed to them. Any line that's drawn between "legal" and "illegal" PEDs is arbitrary, so it seems lie people who argue against "PED" use are just drawing an imaginary line in the sand based on their own prejudices.

Is albuterol a PED? What if you're asthmatic? What if you're really mildly asthmatic?
What about ritalin?
What about caffeine?

here's a list since 2004, apparently caffeine is now off the list, but they can still dq you based on some amount, seems blurry:

http://www.theathlete.org/banned_drugs/index.html

can't find the official ioc/wada list in my quick search.


If PED's were allowed in sport, I wouldn't have a problem with them, i'd have a problem with athletes/youngins` abusing them to an "unhealthy" degree. Since they are banned in sport, I have a real problem with people using them to gain an edge or coaches administering them to gain an edge. Until that changes, I lose most respect for athletes who dope and coaches who prescribe/allow their athletes to dope.

peace
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 08, 2011, 03:07:25 pm
Those were rhetorical questions, btw.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 03:10:59 pm
Those were rhetorical questions, btw.

i was answering your rhetoricals
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 08, 2011, 03:35:18 pm
Those were rhetorical questions, btw.

i was answering your rhetoricals

(http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1238157980_scanners_-_head_explosion.gif)
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Raptor on March 08, 2011, 04:50:36 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 08, 2011, 05:49:22 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.



it's a witch hunt same as other drugs...i pretty much agree with everyone here...i see no problems with roids when taken safely but they shouldn't be abused...that being said i still think it's a personal choice and should be left to the individual and not to some government body to regulate what i as an ADULT(very important distinction) put in MY body...it's like anything else...if abused problems occur...heck you can OD on freaking water!

that all being said if what Jc posted is true that seems like a problem!
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Jard on March 08, 2011, 05:51:41 pm
@Rap

Agree w. A lot in your post except the last part about the effect of banning steroids:
One thing Ill say is I would probably be using that shit (like Creatine) if it were legal.
The illegal part also puts a stamp on the product, you asume they dont ban that sh*t for no reason and you asume that the legal sh*t aint that bad.
It might not make any real sense (which is what you pointed out in the beginning of your post) but it sure keeps the average athlete away from steroids.

You could argue that it's the same with drugs in nonathletic environments and use examples of modern society and it's drug wars etc, but I believe they don't apply.
We're talking motivated athletes here, they have a passion for a game and know wtf is at stake when they get caught 'cheating', 90% would inherently feel 'bad' about taking steroids. Those are huge barriers, wouldn't classify it as forbidden fruit/attractive even though I can see what you mean.

Reminds me of one of the more objective, fun docs on steroids, pretty decent.
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qqwsbBZCkk
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 06:07:19 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

no one is limiting human performance, if you want to create a drug free track and field circuit you're free to do so... the same goes for any other sport.

if you want to take PED's by yourself and just get huge/fast/jump high you're free to do so.

no one is limiting anything.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 06:12:33 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

no one is limiting human performance, if you want to create a drug free track and field circuit you're free to do so... the same goes for any other sport.

if you want to take PED's by yourself and just get huge/fast/jump high you're free to do so.

no one is limiting anything.


false,

it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 06:18:38 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

no one is limiting human performance, if you want to create a drug free track and field circuit you're free to do so... the same goes for any other sport.

if you want to take PED's by yourself and just get huge/fast/jump high you're free to do so.

no one is limiting anything.


false,

it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

that's not stopping anybody from doing them.. that's not stopping people from smoking weed..

i agree that people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies for recreational use, weed, crack, meth, roids, whatever.. but if you're competing in an organization you have to follow the guidelines of that organization, and most professional sports circuits/leagues/whatever test for a variety of illicit drugs/PED's/whatever..

no one is preventing you from utilizing roids or smoking weed, regardless of law those substances are very easy to get and most people have no problem with the law.

it's illegal to kill someone but that's not stopping any of us from doing it now is it? what about 'violating our free will'? according to raptor, our free will allows us to kill someone................. and in this world, that free will is not violated, we are free to kill someone but their are consequences to that action.. there is no mind control apparatus in place that prevents us from pulling the trigger except for the consequences, but nothing is stopping us from actually pulling that trigger..

the same goes for roids/weed etc.. their are powerlifting/bodybuilding etc organizations that DO NOT TEST for illicit/ped substances, so, no one is stopping you from utilizing those substances in those organizations.. now everyone who has a problem with organizations who have banned substances lists should all group together and start their own federations and stop whining about it... "Non-tested track & field" NTTF, bam go do it.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 08, 2011, 06:27:06 pm
i agree...if you're in a legue which bans certain subtances and you agree not you use them then you shouldn't...a contract is a contract...you violate it you're fined/banned whatever...cheating is cheating
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 06:34:02 pm
i agree...if you're in a legue which bans certain subtances and you agree not you use them then you shouldn't...a contract is a contract...you violate it you're fined/banned whatever...cheating is cheating

right, i agree with your agreement of my statement.

for example, if we were in a Vegetarian Basketball League ("The Curry League"), which bans the use of eating animal proteins, and we violated that rule, we'd face the consequences. No one is stopping us from quitting the league and playing basketball by ourselves as we indulge ourselves in various animal fleshes. We are also free to start our own league which does not ban people from eating animal products, or we could find a league with that philosophy already in existence. That's PED's in a nutshell. Comply by the rules and there isn't a problem, no ethics have been violated.

So again, all of the people who are so vocal about allowing PED's in sport should start non-tested federations which would probably become more popular (just like pro bodybuilding trumps natural bodybuilding competitions, people want to see freaks), plus you'd make alot of money. So, if anyone on here decides to go that route just break me off a small piece of spending money for my generous ideas.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 08, 2011, 06:44:37 pm
my only issue is with the government having a blanket ban and putting people in prison for using roids...i hate the nanny state with a passion

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 07:49:27 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

no one is limiting human performance, if you want to create a drug free track and field circuit you're free to do so... the same goes for any other sport.

if you want to take PED's by yourself and just get huge/fast/jump high you're free to do so.

no one is limiting anything.


false,

it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

that's not stopping anybody from doing them.. that's not stopping people from smoking weed..

i agree that people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies for recreational use, weed, crack, meth, roids, whatever.. but if you're competing in an organization you have to follow the guidelines of that organization, and most professional sports circuits/leagues/whatever test for a variety of illicit drugs/PED's/whatever..

no one is preventing you from utilizing roids or smoking weed, regardless of law those substances are very easy to get and most people have no problem with the law.

it's illegal to kill someone but that's not stopping any of us from doing it now is it? what about 'violating our free will'? according to raptor, our free will allows us to kill someone................. and in this world, that free will is not violated, we are free to kill someone but their are consequences to that action.. there is no mind control apparatus in place that prevents us from pulling the trigger except for the consequences, but nothing is stopping us from actually pulling that trigger..

the same goes for roids/weed etc.. their are powerlifting/bodybuilding etc organizations that DO NOT TEST for illicit/ped substances, so, no one is stopping you from utilizing those substances in those organizations.. now everyone who has a problem with organizations who have banned substances lists should all group together and start their own federations and stop whining about it... "Non-tested track & field" NTTF, bam go do it.


I understand what you are saying but if everyone else is using these substances and the rule is a farce, how is it immoral/wrong to break the rule?

People have been doping for the last almost 100 years...they only started testing relatively recently.  That means there was a period where they weren't being tested and yet free to compete and records were set then.

Records and performances kept going up once they started testing so either two things happened-- there was a giant jump in athletic talent and training (which happened exactly when they started testing), or people kept doping....


the answer is obvious... everyone in strength/power sports dopes... EVERYONE
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 07:53:00 pm
i agree...if you're in a legue which bans certain subtances and you agree not you use them then you shouldn't...a contract is a contract...you violate it you're fined/banned whatever...cheating is cheating

right, i agree with your agreement of my statement.

for example, if we were in a Vegetarian Basketball League ("The Curry League"), which bans the use of eating animal proteins, and we violated that rule, we'd face the consequences. No one is stopping us from quitting the league and playing basketball by ourselves as we indulge ourselves in various animal fleshes. We are also free to start our own league which does not ban people from eating animal products, or we could find a league with that philosophy already in existence. That's PED's in a nutshell. Comply by the rules and there isn't a problem, no ethics have been violated.

So again, all of the people who are so vocal about allowing PED's in sport should start non-tested federations which would probably become more popular (just like pro bodybuilding trumps natural bodybuilding competitions, people want to see freaks), plus you'd make alot of money. So, if anyone on here decides to go that route just break me off a small piece of spending money for my generous ideas.

But thats the thing we aren't free...what you talked about with killing someone and the consequences and that analogy represents a very limited type of freedom...

even more limited in this case because you could get away with killing someone, you absolutely would not get away with setting up a PED legal league
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 07:57:44 pm
it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

That's not the issue here. Everything Kelly used was legal besides the RX Test (I think) and the T3 (although it can be obtained legally for "research purposes")

And No, steroids shouldn't be legal. We don't need 16 year olds injecting themselves. Not only is that dangerous in itself, but even if they do it safely, they can fuck up their endocrine system. And then you have the issue with them not knowing what an AI and and not doing a proper PTC and then they turn into women.

For those who think steroids to be legal, explain to me what an aromatase inhibitor is, name 2 kinds of them, and why you need them in a cycle when you take testosterone. I'll have more questions for you after you answer this one.

Bigger-Stronger-Faster is such a biased documentary. The people who want them legal know what they are doing. They've done research on steroids, proper cycling, etc. Making steroids legal gives any random joe access to them.

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: AlexV on March 08, 2011, 08:14:28 pm
I have no problem with PED's.  It is a personal choice.  The sad thing about the PED in sport thing is the asterisk.  Honestly PEDs have been used throughout time.  Athletes used to use strychnine in the olden days.  When juice came out it was used freely in athletics for decades ("breakfast of champions" was a bowl full of dbol at the breakfast table).  

I just searched for some quick stats:

Ben Johnson was 5'10" and weighed any where from 165-200lbs (I believe 176 was what CF reported)
Roger Maris was 6' and weighed 204.

I know different sports but the point is that you cannot tell who juiced based upon their size.  Throw a 180lb BJ in a baseball uniform (pants and long sleeves) and he would be dwarfed by ball players of today and was even small relative to the golden era.

Buster Posey NL ROY is 6'2 and 219
Mickey Mantle wad 5'11" and 195 (This is BJ on the big end of the scale)

Carl Lewis failed 4 drug tests in Seoul.  Not for juice but...  Still cheating! yet America chose to cover up and celebrate his accomplishments.

Not PED's but the Babe didn't play against black people, that had to have inflated his statistics.

So how do we "know" beyond a doubt that the athletes of yesteryear were as clean as we want to believe?

For a while Steroids were not banned in baseball, yet were illegal in the US.  However in other countries they could be bought OTC, giving an edge to the players in placed like the DR (timeframe corresponds to the rise of the carribean latino growth in baseball- I know doesn;t prove use but an interesting trend)

We will never know.

As far as KB goes it is much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 08:18:49 pm
Quote from: adarqui
If PED's were allowed in sport

You say this like a absolute force like god would come in and say "they are not allowed". And that's it, you can't do anything about it. It's still PEOPLE that decided they shouldn't be allowed. The question is - who are these people that they feel they're entitled to limit human performance to the kind of performance without PEDs? Is that more ethical than to use PEDs? Why?

These are complex questions that I don't feel are easy to answer.

It would be cool to be able to perform in a drug free and drug-not-so-free athletic world. Like, heck, if I want to give my 100%+ performance, I should be allowed the free will to choose to use drugs.

The problem is - young people might be forced by their coaches to use the drugs and therefore destroy their liver etc without them really making that decision. That's the real problem.

But if you keep PEDs banned, they become an even more "temptation" since the forbidden fruit is always sweeter.

????????????????????????????????????????????????

no one is limiting human performance, if you want to create a drug free track and field circuit you're free to do so... the same goes for any other sport.

if you want to take PED's by yourself and just get huge/fast/jump high you're free to do so.

no one is limiting anything.


false,

it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

that's not stopping anybody from doing them.. that's not stopping people from smoking weed..

i agree that people should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies for recreational use, weed, crack, meth, roids, whatever.. but if you're competing in an organization you have to follow the guidelines of that organization, and most professional sports circuits/leagues/whatever test for a variety of illicit drugs/PED's/whatever..

no one is preventing you from utilizing roids or smoking weed, regardless of law those substances are very easy to get and most people have no problem with the law.

it's illegal to kill someone but that's not stopping any of us from doing it now is it? what about 'violating our free will'? according to raptor, our free will allows us to kill someone................. and in this world, that free will is not violated, we are free to kill someone but their are consequences to that action.. there is no mind control apparatus in place that prevents us from pulling the trigger except for the consequences, but nothing is stopping us from actually pulling that trigger..

the same goes for roids/weed etc.. their are powerlifting/bodybuilding etc organizations that DO NOT TEST for illicit/ped substances, so, no one is stopping you from utilizing those substances in those organizations.. now everyone who has a problem with organizations who have banned substances lists should all group together and start their own federations and stop whining about it... "Non-tested track & field" NTTF, bam go do it.


I understand what you are saying but if everyone else is using these substances and the rule is a farce, how is it immoral/wrong to break the rule?

yes it is immoral/wrong to break the rule, if everyone is cheating and the rule says no cheating, then everyone is immoral/wrong.

this issue is far greater than just doping in sport, looking at the economic crisis in usa.. everyone is trying to "get theirs before they die", abusing the system/not thinking about the consequences. bottom line is people who cheat are CHEATERS and are thus pussy ass bitches and should fuck off, i'd rather watch clean 10.2's than roided 9.8's.

stop listening to charlie francis, seriously, when he says "everyone is cheating", he's just justifying his own pathetic cheater actions.




Quote
People have been doping for the last almost 100 years...they only started testing relatively recently.  That means there was a period where they weren't being tested and yet free to compete and records were set then.

Records and performances kept going up once they started testing so either two things happened-- there was a giant jump in athletic talent and training (which happened exactly when they started testing), or people kept doping....

casey combest was on roids? some people are just freaks.. tfb dunkers are on roids? TFB dunkers have more genetic potential than most olympic athletes do, they don't roid, lift, or do anything other than dunk, play basketball, and play xbox.. now imagine that talent existing around the world, getting ahold of those athletes when they are young and having them do track..

not everyone is a cheater.



Quote
the answer is obvious... everyone in strength/power sports dopes... EVERYONE

uh no..
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 08:22:58 pm
it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

And No, steroids shouldn't be legal. We don't need 16 year olds injecting themselves. Not only is that dangerous in itself, but even if they do it safely, they can fuck up their endocrine system. And then you have the issue with them not knowing what an AI and and not doing a proper PTC and then they turn into women.

For those who think steroids to be legal, explain to me what an aromatase inhibitor is, name 2 kinds of them, and why you need them in a cycle when you take testosterone. I'll have more questions for you after you answer this one.

Bigger-Stronger-Faster is such a biased documentary. The people who want them legal know what they are doing. They've done research on steroids, proper cycling, etc. Making steroids legal gives any random joe access to them.

lmao x2.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 08:24:18 pm
it is a federal offense in the us and many other countries to have and use steroids, hgh, and other peds

That's not the issue here. Everything Kelly used was legal besides the RX Test (I think) and the T3 (although it can be obtained legally for "research purposes")

And No, steroids shouldn't be legal. We don't need 16 year olds injecting themselves. Not only is that dangerous in itself, but even if they do it safely, they can fuck up their endocrine system. And then you have the issue with them not knowing what an AI and and not doing a proper PTC and then they turn into women.

For those who think steroids to be legal, explain to me what an aromatase inhibitor is, name 2 kinds of them, and why you need them in a cycle when you take testosterone. I'll have more questions for you after you answer this one.

Bigger-Stronger-Faster is such a biased documentary. The people who want them legal know what they are doing. They've done research on steroids, proper cycling, etc. Making steroids legal gives any random joe access to them.



Thank you JC for agreeing with a system that FORCES someone else's opinions and morality upon me, the individual.

Who the fuck are you to tell me what I can and cannot put into my body...

secondly, I assume that an aromatase inhibitor prevents or strongly reduces the aromatisation of testosterone to estrogen (which leads to the oft quoted side effect of gynecomastia)...from what I have read it is often recommended that you take them when you're using a cycle...

however, a minimalist cycle done properly should have few if any adverse side effects
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: bball2020 on March 08, 2011, 08:25:31 pm
Thats the problem adarq, everyone in today's age RATIONALIZE cheating or unethical behavior.  People know that cheating on your wife, cheat in athletics, or stealing money is WRONG just as much as they knew these things in say the 1950's, the only difference is people now constantly make excuses and down play it. Obviously the consequences are devastating on all levels.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 08, 2011, 08:30:54 pm
JC if you're position is that it's shouldn't be legal because stupid people will do it or kids will get a hold of it...then my question to you is what SHOULD be legal?

you act as if these people already can't get a hold of it...they can and they do
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 08:35:52 pm
I'm just lol'ing at the people who think steroids are "healthy" on here. I guarantee they couldn't put together a good cycle yet they are talking like they are experts on steroids because they watched Bigger-Stronger-Faster. Please shut the fuck up


@lamp, not quite but good enough. You didn't name me 2 AIs you can use on a cycle.

I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves. If steroids were legal and legal for sports, where is the limit people use? You'd have to ridiculously abuse them to compete. Why should you be forced to abuse a drug to compete? And since you know others are using, you are going to try ridiculous doses yourself.

Athletes should be practicing their sport and improving their athleticism, not studying drug cycles.

@AlexV, the original problem I had with KellyB using PEDs was he advertises his VJB using the headlines

"Attention athletes: Heres what solid no fluff, no-hype, scientifically grounded training methods can do
59 and Dunking You Can Do It Too!"

I improved my vertical jump from 23 to 42 inches and Im gonna teach you how you can realistically improve yours too


The thought of his vertical jump being "tainted" bothers me, because he's using it at a selling point.

But the more I looked into the posts, it seems like Kelly has a big drug abuse problem and I thought it should be discussed here, as he's well respected on forums everywhere and a lot of kids view him as a "God" and listen to everything he says. When the guy says you shouldn't diet without anabolic assistance, that bothers me. That's almost telling kids to take PEDs.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 08:36:49 pm
Thats the problem adarq, everyone in today's age RATIONALIZE cheating or unethical behavior.  People know that cheating on your wife, cheat in athletics, or stealing money is WRONG just as much as they knew these things in say the 1950's, the only difference is people now constantly make excuses and down play it. Obviously the consequences are devastating on all levels.

ya my mind is always blown when people justify breaking the rules to obtain an edge in sport.. "if everyone is doing it why can't I" is always the excuse..

"if everyone is scamming why can't I?"

"if everyone is giving out loans to people who obviously can't repay them, why can't I?"

"if everyone is charging 200-400% interest at check cashing stores, why can't I?"

"if everyone is running up incredibly credit card debt, then just erasing it with chapter 7 bankruptcy, why can't I?"

"if everyone is using PED's why can't I?"

same shit..




bottom line, people who justify PED's usually have no idea what goes on in the mentality of these athletes who use them.. for one, if you're trying to become cream of the crop, you won't just do "one cycle and stop using them".. PED's become CRACK.. cheater-crack.. athletes will keep abusing them or their gains will diminish over time.. this is not healthy. Regardless of the sport, if "you" had to take PED's to become competitive in that sport, you will NEVER be able to stop taking them. If doing "one cycle" was all it took, you already had the ability to compete at that level without the use of PED's. People who would not ordinarily be able to compete at that level, who take PED's, are addicts. There's no way to get off the JUNK because that means not being able to compete.

AND THAT IS UNHEALTHY AND DANGEROUS.

bigger faster stronger is stupid, brb 16 year old "aspiring athlete" extremely depressed, saw PED's can be effective & safe on a forum so I'm poppin the testosteronez, killing myself via hanging. BBL.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 08:38:02 pm
JC if you're position is that it's shouldn't be legal because stupid people will do it or kids will get a hold of it...then my question to you is what SHOULD be legal?

you act as if these people already can't get a hold of it...they can and they do

Drugs that can be used safely. There is no safe way for a kid to use anabolic steroids. There are safe ways that men over 25 can, but that's not the issue.

Making steroids legal after they are already illegal basically says it's ok to use them.

Few of you guys know anything about proper cycles yet you are saying steroids should be legal. That is why they are illegal.


Next question, what's the difference between a methylated and non-methylated oral, and can they be taken together?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 08:39:38 pm
I'm just lol'ing at the people who think steroids are "healthy" on here. I guarantee they couldn't put together a good cycle yet they are talking like they are experts on steroids because they watched Bigger-Stronger-Faster. Please shut the fuck up


@lamp, not quite but good enough. You didn't name me 2 AIs you can use on a cycle.

I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves. If steroids were legal and legal for sports, where is the limit people use? You'd have to ridiculously abuse them to compete. Why should you be forced to abuse a drug to compete? And since you know others are using, you are going to try ridiculous doses yourself.

Athletes should be practicing their sport and improving their athleticism, not studying drug cycles.

@AlexV, the original problem I had with KellyB using PEDs was he advertises his VJB using the headlines

"Attention athletes: Heres what solid no fluff, no-hype, scientifically grounded training methods can do
59 and Dunking You Can Do It Too!"

I improved my vertical jump from 23 to 42 inches and Im gonna teach you how you can realistically improve yours too


The thought of his vertical jump being "tainted" bothers me, because he's using it at a selling point.

But the more I looked into the posts, it seems like Kelly has a big drug abuse problem and I thought it should be discussed here, as he's well respected on forums everywhere and a lot of kids view him as a "God" and listen to everything he says. When the guy says you shouldn't diet without anabolic assistance, that bothers me. That's almost telling kids to take PEDs.


superstrong post, 1.5xBW bicep curl level.


edit: allowing PED's/roids in competitive sport is basically saying "we don't give a fuck about you as a human being, we just want to see you perform like a racehorse". It really is... what jcsbck says is a problem i've had with ped's (if they are legal) for a long time.. people will end up doping up so hardcore it'll get insane, picture marius pudzianowski sniffing 5 lines of coke before a strongman event. Marius didn't get banned for PED's, he got banned for cocaine usage. This guy was coking up prior to strongman events. Healthy.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 08:40:17 pm
Quote
yes it is immoral/wrong to break the rule, if everyone is cheating and the rule says no cheating, then everyone is immoral/wrong.

this issue is far greater than just doping in sport, looking at the economic crisis in usa.. everyone is trying to "get theirs before they die", abusing the system/not thinking about the consequences. bottom line is people who cheat are CHEATERS and are thus pussy ass bitches and should fuck off, i'd rather watch clean 10.2's than roided 9.8's.

stop listening to charlie francis, seriously, when he says "everyone is cheating", he's just justifying his own pathetic cheater actions.

earlier I was referring to the practice in the US of legislating steroid use with regards to athletics NOT the leagues decisions
obviously if the league makes a rule it is their rule, you participate in the league you play by the rules-- it is morally sound...

However, with regards to the countries laws, a famous person by the name of Martin Luther King said:

"One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws"

ban on steroids in the US = unjust, therefore I have no moral responsibility to obey the law there...none

 I agree I wish nobody used steroids but that doesn't change a thing...I too would rather see natural 10.2s than 9.8s doped but nobody cares what I think...

lastly, charlie francis was the only coach with the balls to come out and tell the truth...he was startled by the hypocrisy and corruption that pervaded the olympics and the IOC


Quote
casey combest was on roids? some people are just freaks.. tfb dunkers are on roids? TFB dunkers have more genetic potential than most olympic athletes do, they don't roid, lift, or do anything other than dunk, play basketball, and play xbox.. now imagine that talent existing around the world, getting ahold of those athletes when they are young and having them do track..

not everyone is a cheater.

Combest was good naturally; however, he wasn't the best.  Maybe if he had used peds he would have broken Maurice Green's record in the 60...

I don't know what you are trying to argue with the last statement...I would hesitate before belittling athletes who have been selected from a young age, trained diligently in their discipline from that young age and who have excelled and made it to the top of their sport.

while the tfb guys are impressive, you have no basis for saying they have more genetic potential...
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 08:42:56 pm
I'm just lol'ing at the people who think steroids are "healthy" on here. I guarantee they couldn't put together a good cycle yet they are talking like they are experts on steroids because they watched Bigger-Stronger-Faster. Please shut the fuck up


@lamp, not quite but good enough. You didn't name me 2 AIs you can use on a cycle.

I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves. If steroids were legal and legal for sports, where is the limit people use? You'd have to ridiculously abuse them to compete. Why should you be forced to abuse a drug to compete? And since you know others are using, you are going to try ridiculous doses yourself.

Athletes should be practicing their sport and improving their athleticism, not studying drug cycles.

@AlexV, the original problem I had with KellyB using PEDs was he advertises his VJB using the headlines

"Attention athletes: Heres what solid no fluff, no-hype, scientifically grounded training methods can do
59 and Dunking You Can Do It Too!"

I improved my vertical jump from 23 to 42 inches and Im gonna teach you how you can realistically improve yours too


The thought of his vertical jump being "tainted" bothers me, because he's using it at a selling point.

But the more I looked into the posts, it seems like Kelly has a big drug abuse problem and I thought it should be discussed here, as he's well respected on forums everywhere and a lot of kids view him as a "God" and listen to everything he says. When the guy says you shouldn't diet without anabolic assistance, that bothers me. That's almost telling kids to take PEDs.


ha ha ha you literally can search aromatase inhibitors and have wikipedia tell you the names of plenty lol... look them up yourself

Quote
I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves

this quote right here says it all... if you can't spot the danger and contradiction lying within these words then you are an idiot...

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 08:45:28 pm
Quote
Thats the problem adarq, everyone in today's age RATIONALIZE cheating or unethical behavior.  People know that cheating on your wife, cheat in athletics, or stealing money is WRONG just as much as they knew these things in say the 1950's, the only difference is people now constantly make excuses and down play it. Obviously the consequences are devastating on all levels.

the rule on peds should be changed... then it wouldn't be cheating

its not like cheating on your wife or stealing which have been considered morally repugnant behaviors for ages............

there is no obvious stance on steroid use current laws and regulations notwithstanding
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 08:51:38 pm

ha ha ha you literally can search aromatase inhibitors and have wikipedia tell you the names of plenty lol... look them up yoursel


So you had no idea what they were and you just googled? Now think about the random high school kid who has never even heard of the term. 99% of people know what steroids are, .00001% know what AIs, Serms, and the like are.

This thread got so ridiculous though. The legality of PEDs is not, and has never been the issue I have with KellyB using them. I already said most of the stuff he used was legal. Yet all you guys who think you are experts because you watched a biased documentary are trying to make some point about something that was never the issue here.

Not really sure how I am a "hypocrite", so explain that part more.


EDIT: I'm ignoring any more posts that aren't about the main issue. This thread has gotten ridiculous.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 08:55:30 pm
Quote
Thats the problem adarq, everyone in today's age RATIONALIZE cheating or unethical behavior.  People know that cheating on your wife, cheat in athletics, or stealing money is WRONG just as much as they knew these things in say the 1950's, the only difference is people now constantly make excuses and down play it. Obviously the consequences are devastating on all levels.

the rule on peds should be changed... then it wouldn't be cheating

the rules on ped's don't need to be changed, organizations that do not test need to be created.. what you are asking for, is basically not allowing clean athletes to compete at a high level. With PED's legal in sport, natural athletes will be left behind in favor of "performance junkies" who pop PED's out of pez dispensers.

you need to give the individual a "right to choose" between which league/fed they want to compete in.. so far most feds are ANTI PED so, that means creating feds that don't test.. then you can have people who use/abuse ped's compete there.

legalizing PED's in sport would be very dangerous and put natural athletes at an extreme disadvantage.. contraire to popular belief, not everyone wants to fill their body up with hormones/chemicals.. people like romo will chop off a testicle to gain an advantage over their competition, they are chemical junkies and should not exist in "clean federations".




Quote
its not like cheating on your wife or stealing which have been considered morally repugnant behaviors for ages............

there is no obvious stance on steroid use current laws and regulations notwithstanding

it's exactly like cheating on your wife, you agree to a "sacred contract" and you break it, same thing.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 08:57:47 pm

ha ha ha you literally can search aromatase inhibitors and have wikipedia tell you the names of plenty lol... look them up yoursel


So you had no idea what they were and you just googled? Now think about the random high school kid who has never even heard of the term. 99% of people know what steroids are, .00001% know what AIs, Serms, and the like are.

This thread got so ridiculous though. The legality of PEDs is not, and has never been the issue I have with KellyB using them. I already said most of the stuff he used was legal. Yet all you guys who think you are experts because you watched a biased documentary are trying to make some point about something that was never the issue here.

Not really sure how I am a "hypocrite", so explain that part more.

knew what they were but I didn't know the specific names of any...actually thought hcg was one but I was wrong there...

how are you a hypocrite?

you write "I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves"

your "preventing them from killing themselves" is simply a self justification for you telling them what to do.  By doing that you are saying that you are better, smarter, and an essentially patriarchal figure to them-- one who is perfectly justified in having a say in their life and their choices.

I find that mentality very disturbing and scary.  I do not want you, the government or anyone/thing else interfering in my life.

Lastly,  I agree the KellyB thing is wrong if he was advertising his program dope-free (because obviously using Peds would end up enhancing the effectiveness of the program just a little bit  :D).
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 09:02:45 pm
Quote
the rules on ped's don't need to be changed, organizations that do not test need to be created.. what you are asking for, is basically not allowing clean athletes to compete at a high level. With PED's legal in sport, natural athletes will be left behind in favor of "performance junkies" who pop PED's out of pez dispensers.

you need to give the individual a "right to choose" between which league/fed they want to compete in.. so far most feds are ANTI PED so, that means creating feds that don't test.. then you can have people who use/abuse ped's compete there.

legalizing PED's in sport would be very dangerous and put natural athletes at an extreme disadvantage.. contraire to popular belief, not everyone wants to fill their body up with hormones/chemicals.. people like romo will chop off a testicle to gain an advantage over their competition, they are chemical junkies and should not exist in "clean federations".

I agree with what you are saying here... but it will never happen

the athletic establishment has too much vested and stands to lose too much if the current status quo is disturbed.

the nightmare situation you put at the end describes the current situation in athletics, if you want to win you have to dope

Quote
it's exactly like cheating on your wife, you agree to a "sacred contract" and you break it, same thing.
from the contractual stance yes it is true; however, I was talking about something else...

in western moral code it is considered wrong to cheat on your wife.  There is no moral background or tradition with regards to steroids... they are not considered morally wrong by our culture, whereas cheating on one's wife is
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:06:20 pm
knew what they were but I didn't know the specific names of any...actually thought hcg was one but I was wrong there...

how are you a hypocrite?

you write "I'm not putting my "morals" on anyone, I'm preventing them from killing themselves"

your "preventing them from killing themselves" is simply a self justification for you telling them what to do.  By doing that you are saying that you are better, smarter, and an essentially patriarchal figure to them-- one who is perfectly justified in having a say in their life and their choices.

I find that mentality very disturbing and scary.  I do not want you, the government or anyone/thing else interfering in my life.

Lastly,  I agree the KellyB thing is wrong if he was advertising his program dope-free (because obviously using Peds would end up enhancing the effectiveness of the program just a little bit  :D).


The fact that you thought hCG was one shows that you are not qualified to give your opinion about anything steroid related, and need to get out of this thread or at least just talk about the topic that this thread was intended to talk about.

I take it back, I was putting my morals on people, but...
You have some weird hippie mentalities. If you don't want the government "interfering" in your life, then you are against all laws and against taxes. Some of somebody raped and killed your mother, you're ok with that because you don't want the government interfering with your life. Every law is based on morals, and there is no universal moral code. Human Rights, International Law, and National law are all based on morals, which according to you is is disturbing and scary. What makes western moral code right and a rapists moral code wrong?

in b4 I contradicted myself
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:08:32 pm
Lamp, go away though. Seriously. The point you are trying to make has nothing to do with kellyB using legal PEDs.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 09:14:36 pm
Quote
the rules on ped's don't need to be changed, organizations that do not test need to be created.. what you are asking for, is basically not allowing clean athletes to compete at a high level. With PED's legal in sport, natural athletes will be left behind in favor of "performance junkies" who pop PED's out of pez dispensers.

you need to give the individual a "right to choose" between which league/fed they want to compete in.. so far most feds are ANTI PED so, that means creating feds that don't test.. then you can have people who use/abuse ped's compete there.

legalizing PED's in sport would be very dangerous and put natural athletes at an extreme disadvantage.. contraire to popular belief, not everyone wants to fill their body up with hormones/chemicals.. people like romo will chop off a testicle to gain an advantage over their competition, they are chemical junkies and should not exist in "clean federations".

I agree with what you are saying here... but it will never happen

the athletic establishment has too much vested and stands to lose too much if the current status quo is disturbed.

the nightmare situation you put at the end describes the current situation in athletics, if you want to win you have to dope

the nightmare situation would be having PED's legalized in sport so that everyone WOULD ACTUALLY have to use them to compete.. as it stands right now, ped's are illegal, so a guy who came in second (naturally) behind a roider (1st) actually has a chance when that guy (1st place) tests positive.. with ped's legalized across the board, there would be absolutely no way to compete without contributing a major portion of your "training" to pharmacology.. as it stands right now, people can compete at a high level without having to put a ton of trash in their bodies.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 09:16:25 pm
Quote
The fact that you thought hCG was one shows that you are not qualified to give your opinion about anything steroid related, and need to get out of this thread or at least just talk about the topic that this thread was intended to talk about.

false, I said I initially thought something about hcG... which I then checked before I wrote anything (I later brought it up to explain the ease in finding/researching aromatase inhibitors).  I am not arrogant enough to assume I know that much about steroid use and the various ancillaries.  This has nothing to do however with my comments on the ethics behind steroid laws and regulations.
I know more than you about playing soccer, does that mean you are not qualified to talk about soccer with me or even criticize my technique... obviously not

Quote
I take it back, I was putting my morals on people, but...
You have some weird hippie mentalities. If you don't want the government "interfering" in your life, then you are against all laws and against taxes. Some of somebody raped and killed your mother, you're ok with that because you don't want the government interfering with your life. Every law is based on morals, and there is no universal moral code. Human Rights, International Law, and National law are all based on morals, which according to you is is disturbing and scary. What makes western moral code right and a rapists moral code wrong?

in b4 I contradicted myself

no problem, you recognized the contradiction in that statement...most people don't

I am for government in the sense that I think a police force and military is necessary to preserve the rights of the individual -- to property, life, speech...

imo taxes should only pay for police and military
beyond that, no I am not for government


secondly, there is a universal moral code...

the philosopher Kant wrote about it:

"Act only on that maxim which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

this is the basis for all moral behavior

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 09:18:32 pm
Lamp, go away though. Seriously. The point you are trying to make has nothing to do with kellyB using legal PEDs.

ha I realise the topic has been derailed considerably...

i apologise  :-[

back to kellyb...

he was wrong to advertise his products without mentioning that he had other things to aid in his transformation

what else is there to say?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: $ick3nin.vend3tta on March 08, 2011, 09:19:10 pm
stop listening to charlie francis, seriously, when he says "everyone is cheating", he's just justifying his own pathetic cheater actions.

+1 to that.

Quote from: LAMP
the nightmare situation you put at the end describes the current situation in athletics, if you want to win you have to dope.

So what are Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay & Asafa Powell juicing up on?.







Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 08, 2011, 09:21:16 pm
Lamp, go away though. Seriously. The point you are trying to make has nothing to do with kellyB using legal PEDs.

ha I realise the topic has been derailed considerably...

i apologise  :-[

back to kellyb...

he was wrong to advertise his products without mentioning that he had other things to aid in his transformation

what else is there to say?

i take it you also are a libertarian...or maybe an objectivist?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:25:05 pm
secondly, there is a universal moral code...

the philosopher Kant wrote about it:

"Act only on that maxim which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

this is the basis for all moral behavior

I'm really not sure what that quote means because I speak modern english, but how was universal law decided? Because the majority of society felt that way? Well, the majority of society (at least in California) thought Marijuana should stay illegal,  and the majority of society probably thinks steroids should be illegal. Does that become universal law then?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 09:26:14 pm
Lamp, go away though. Seriously. The point you are trying to make has nothing to do with kellyB using legal PEDs.

ha I realise the topic has been derailed considerably...

i apologise  :-[

back to kellyb...

he was wrong to advertise his products without mentioning that he had other things to aid in his transformation

what else is there to say?

i take it you also are a libertarian...or maybe an objectivist?

for the most part yes...

this thread really needs a post from kellyb to explain those posts about the steroids
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 09:28:12 pm
secondly, there is a universal moral code...

the philosopher Kant wrote about it:

"Act only on that maxim which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

this is the basis for all moral behavior

I'm really not sure what that quote means because I speak modern english, but how was universal law decided? Because the majority of society felt that way? Well, the majority of society (at least in California) thought Marijuana should stay illegal,  and the majority of society probably thinks steroids should be illegal. Does that become universal law then?

i would be happy to discuss this in another thread...

this thread has been derailed enough already
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:37:24 pm
secondly, there is a universal moral code...

the philosopher Kant wrote about it:

"Act only on that maxim which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

this is the basis for all moral behavior

I'm really not sure what that quote means because I speak modern english, but how was universal law decided? Because the majority of society felt that way? Well, the majority of society (at least in California) thought Marijuana should stay illegal,  and the majority of society probably thinks steroids should be illegal. Does that become universal law then?

i would be happy to discuss this in another thread...

this thread has been derailed enough already

Agreed
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adah_church on March 08, 2011, 09:43:04 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/5RVlX.jpg)
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:43:58 pm
You forgot single


in b4 not a single fuck was given that day
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 08, 2011, 09:48:46 pm
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/defyingthecurse.html

brb writing a book about natural muscle building yet taking every pro hormone known to man.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adah_church on March 08, 2011, 09:49:02 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/DQZzE.jpg)
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LanceSTS on March 08, 2011, 11:23:51 pm
 Just to clear up the bullshit notion that ALL elite athetes use performance enhancing drugs mentioned earlier,

Professor Vladimir M. Zatsiorsky PhD  in Science and Practice of Strength Training, page vii

"This text is intended to be comprehensive.  However one important issue is not addressed--drug abuse.  Unfortunately, in order to become bigger and stronger, many athletes, including bodybuilders and teenagers caught up in the bodybuilding craze, use drugs, especially black -market anabolic steroids.  This practice is harmful to their health, unethical (in sport), and illegal.  The use of drugs, steroids included, is banned by the International Olympic Committee and international amateur athletic federations.  The distribution of steroids for nonmedical purposes is forbidden by law in many countries, including the United States and Canada.  THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN TO SHOW YOU HOW TO TRAIN WITHOUT DRUGS.  IT IS IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF ELITE ATHLETES HAVE NEVER USED DRUGS."

Zatsiorsky, Siff, Verkoshansky, published what is still by far  the best literature today on strength training for sport to teach athletes and coaches how to take advantage of training from a scientific standpoint, to show us how to train correctly and take advantage of the many many different tools we have at our disposal, none of which involve encouraging drug use.  Bottom line is drugs are a CHOICE, not a necessity, and there are tons more athletes and recreational bodybuilders who use drugs and arent worth a shit at anything than there are elite athletes using drugs who succeed.  Drug use is obviously an issue in elite sprinters and professional power/speed type sports, but the notion that ALL the pro or elite athletes are using p.e.d.s is retarded.   
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 08, 2011, 11:26:15 pm
i respectfully disagree with your final statement

however, there is no way to prove it one way or the other and so there is no point in debating it
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LanceSTS on March 08, 2011, 11:31:39 pm
i respectfully disagree with your final statement

however, there is no way to prove it one way or the other and so there is no point in debating it

that is fine man, we are all entitled to our opinions, but note that the highlighted quote was not my words, it was zatsiorsky, who has coached and worked with more elite athletes than any of us coaches combined. 
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 08, 2011, 11:35:43 pm
i respectfully disagree with your final statement

however, there is no way to prove it one way or the other and so there is no point in debating it

that is fine man, we are all entitled to our opinions, but note that the highlighted quote was not my words, it was zatsiorsky, who has coached and worked with more elite athletes than any of us coaches combined.  

^^
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 09, 2011, 12:05:27 am
Quote from KellyB on dbhammer about Brian Cushing

Quote
Along with fake tans, tribal art, and the Guido look, roids are a pretty big part of that jersey douchebag culture. It shouldn't be a surprise at all.

Some of you guys really need to get a f'in clue.

And I guess pro hormones, t3, and snorting anti depressants are a big part of that "mad scientist" culture
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: vag on March 09, 2011, 03:08:56 pm
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/defyingthecurse.html

brb writing a book about natural muscle building yet taking every pro hormone known to man.

Quote from KellyB on dbhammer about Brian Cushing

Quote
Along with fake tans, tribal art, and the Guido look, roids are a pretty big part of that jersey douchebag culture. It shouldn't be a surprise at all.

Some of you guys really need to get a f'in clue.

And I guess pro hormones, t3, and snorting anti depressants are a big part of that "mad scientist" culture

You know i am a die-hard KellyB supporter , but anyway , not here to argue!
I noted ( and appreciated ) that you've been very fair in this specific post , saying "if its really him" , "wait for his reply". No sarcasm here.
But the above comments are unfair. Say he took all those drugs and even more, does this make his work and articles less legit?
I will agree the 23'' to 42'' inspirational journey becomes void if he was juiced , still his programs and information are damn legit and useful , no PED references in there.
So i guess its fair to discuss the Maroko affiliation ( he explains about that personal to you in this forum but anyway , that's off topic ) and that PED issue that just came up , but I think he deserves better than this irony or those stupid posters adah_church posted!
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: XxZxX on March 09, 2011, 04:06:37 pm
PEDs are great for the impatient. Those who constantly seeking for shortcuts and want to see result faster. I don't believe that PEDs will not affect your health. I saw and read some documentary. One of their points is  there are not enough data to proof PEDs causes heart attack, tumors and etc. There's wishful thinking. Since they are taking it, they will constantly wish and won't believe that it will affect their healths though there are hypothesis that claim PEDs causes health problem.  Better be safe and Sorry.  If you want to take PEDs, it better be worth it, you better make millions out of it. I seen some people took it so they can look buff... All that because of looks in the expense of your health is not worth it.  

Anyway this is a free world though, they can take the shortcut if they wanted to and if they come out clean like KellyB, i have no problem with it.  He is honest about it. Until I got solid proof that PEDs are harmful, then immediately i will have problem with them. Right now all eyes on Barry Bond.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: bball2020 on March 09, 2011, 04:21:45 pm
Tobacco and alcohol are definitely unhealthy, should we ban those? (not pro PEDs at all but just saying)
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: XxZxX on March 09, 2011, 04:26:17 pm
Tobacco and alcohol are definitely unhealthy, should we ban those? (not pro PEDs at all but just saying)

now you are talking politics. Too money flowing in tobacco and alchohol, too much lobbyist to make it legal. Won't happen
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 09, 2011, 05:10:31 pm
Tobacco and alcohol are definitely unhealthy, should we ban those? (not pro PEDs at all but just saying)

ban them from what? athletic competition? yes.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 09, 2011, 05:46:47 pm
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/defyingthecurse.html

brb writing a book about natural muscle building yet taking every pro hormone known to man.

Quote from KellyB on dbhammer about Brian Cushing

Quote
Along with fake tans, tribal art, and the Guido look, roids are a pretty big part of that jersey douchebag culture. It shouldn't be a surprise at all.

Some of you guys really need to get a f'in clue.

And I guess pro hormones, t3, and snorting anti depressants are a big part of that "mad scientist" culture

You know i am a die-hard KellyB supporter , but anyway , not here to argue!
I noted ( and appreciated ) that you've been very fair in this specific post , saying "if its really him" , "wait for his reply". No sarcasm here.
But the above comments are unfair. Say he took all those drugs and even more, does this make his work and articles less legit?
I will agree the 23'' to 42'' inspirational journey becomes void if he was juiced , still his programs and information are damn legit and useful , no PED references in there.
So i guess its fair to discuss the Maroko affiliation ( he explains about that personal to you in this forum but anyway , that's off topic ) and that PED issue that just came up , but I think he deserves better than this irony or those stupid posters adah_church posted!


1st post was a  joke, 2nd I found offensive as I am from Jersey. His whole post was based on "assumption" so I did the same thing.

And I do think his work because less legit if he's taking PEDs and suggesting other athletes take them (not accusing him of that though).

Didn't want to get into Maroko but, Kelly stated that he was upset with the way Maroko marketed the Truth About Quickness, yet he did another product with him shortly after. Takes away any credibility he has on this shit in my opinion.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: bball2020 on March 09, 2011, 06:51:03 pm
I can understand you being against PEDs in athletics so am I adarq, but are you really against the government making them illegal? I cant see that at all because of the way you have voiced your opinion on legalization of recreational drugs etc..
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: mattyg35 on March 09, 2011, 07:36:21 pm
I'd love to have pro-steroid sports, take what you want, just don't keep it a secret.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: JelloPuddinPup on March 09, 2011, 07:41:22 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMSJrrr9zXo
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 10, 2011, 01:41:29 am
I can understand you being against PEDs in athletics so am I adarq, but are you really against the government making them illegal? I cant see that at all because of the way you have voiced your opinion on legalization of recreational drugs etc..

i'm confused by your question, seems like you asked something that contradicts? I'm for the legalization of basically all substances.. I'm not however in favor of allowing ped's/crap like that into traditional competitive sports.. I do feel every human on this planet has the right to put whatever they want into their body, whether that's weed, testosterone, crack, whatever, i'm not for telling people what to do, however, I am in favor of "clean sports organizations (which allow marijuana)", so obviously if you take PED's then you'd need to find a non-tested/pro-doping org etc..

their are many dangerous substances out there people could "get high on", but they aren't banned (paint, glue, etc).. so the whole thing is just ridiculous to me.

as for athletics, i would enjoy more watching clean athletes compete rather than "chemically mutated performance junkies jacked up on roidcrack", though that would be interesting to watch occasionally if they competed in their own feds. Take pro bodybuilding for example, if that's what you want sports to become then fine, rally for new untested feds, but to me, those are some really huge unhealthy mutant chemical factories if you ask me.

peace
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: ARowe on March 10, 2011, 02:10:25 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgopPV3a8wM
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 10, 2011, 10:53:35 am
PEDs are great for the impatient. Those who constantly seeking for shortcuts and want to see result faster. I don't believe that PEDs will not affect your health. I saw and read some documentary. One of their points is  there are not enough data to proof PEDs causes heart attack, tumors and etc. There's wishful thinking. Since they are taking it, they will constantly wish and won't believe that it will affect their healths though there are hypothesis that claim PEDs causes health problem.  Better be safe and Sorry.  If you want to take PEDs, it better be worth it, you better make millions out of it. I seen some people took it so they can look buff... All that because of looks in the expense of your health is not worth it.  

Anyway this is a free world though, they can take the shortcut if they wanted to and if they come out clean like KellyB, i have no problem with it.  He is honest about it. Until I got solid proof that PEDs are harmful, then immediately i will have problem with them. Right now all eyes on Barry Bond.

The problem with the documentaries (I'm assuming you're referring to Bigger-Stronger-Faster) is that while they do a good job at debunking a lot of the myths about side effects, they do not do a good job at explaining the actual side effects. As you can see from the responses in this thread, this makes people incorrectly believe steroids are harmless and even "healthy".

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 10, 2011, 04:17:46 pm
see but JC you're making it sound like all steriods are the same thing and created equally which is just not true...some are harder and more dangerous than others
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: XxZxX on March 10, 2011, 05:40:31 pm
PEDs are great for the impatient. Those who constantly seeking for shortcuts and want to see result faster. I don't believe that PEDs will not affect your health. I saw and read some documentary. One of their points is  there are not enough data to proof PEDs causes heart attack, tumors and etc. There's wishful thinking. Since they are taking it, they will constantly wish and won't believe that it will affect their healths though there are hypothesis that claim PEDs causes health problem.  Better be safe and Sorry.  If you want to take PEDs, it better be worth it, you better make millions out of it. I seen some people took it so they can look buff... All that because of looks in the expense of your health is not worth it. 

Anyway this is a free world though, they can take the shortcut if they wanted to and if they come out clean like KellyB, i have no problem with it.  He is honest about it. Until I got solid proof that PEDs are harmful, then immediately i will have problem with them. Right now all eyes on Barry Bond.

The problem with the documentaries (I'm assuming you're referring to Bigger-Stronger-Faster) is that while they do a good job at debunking a lot of the myths about side effects, they do not do a good job at explaining the actual side effects. As you can see from the responses in this thread, this makes people incorrectly believe steroids are harmless and even "healthy".


totally agree with you.  We can't accuse them yet. We do not enough data yet to link these health problems to anabolic steroids because most data are from low sample group studies and it also required a long period of times.  The current data actually SHOWN it is very harmful to people. That's no denying about that. Countries go length to ban them.  While we gather more data,  they claim inconclusive and continue to take it. So right now, if you happen to argue with them, they will go defensive immediately. Because if it's true,  their health are in serious jeopardy. Kind of like being in denial.

see but JC you're making it sound like all steriods are the same thing and created equally which is just not true...some are harder and more dangerous than others

We are referring to anabolic steroid. Not the steroid you use on asthma or skin inflamation.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: dirksilver on March 10, 2011, 06:24:58 pm
so was i
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 11, 2011, 02:32:53 am
see but JC you're making it sound like all steriods are the same thing and created equally which is just not true...some are harder and more dangerous than others

How am I making anything sound remotely like that?

Every cycle should be using testosterone (or at the very least tren), so I think it's fair to talk about the side effects of that as universal side effects of steroids. If they aren't using test, with that action, they are proving that they don't know what they are doing.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: cowed77 on March 17, 2011, 04:09:16 am
no word from the man himself as yet?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: AlexV on March 18, 2011, 02:48:59 am
How am I making anything sound remotely like that?

Every cycle should be using testosterone (or at the very least tren), so I think it's fair to talk about the side effects of that as universal side effects of steroids. If they aren't using test, with that action, they are proving that they don't know what they are doing.

I'll go devils advocate:

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary:

Arnold and may others favorite cycles were deca and dbol.  Did arnie use test?  Most likely, but deca and dbol were his fav's and many others back in the day.

Also test, deca, dbol, tren, etc are easily tested for (much of the discussion has gone drugs in sports)so the goal isn;t better drugs it is less detectable ones.  Sacrifice better for not getting caught.

Lets get to studies: 

For DECADES, until the early 2000's, scientists claimed steroids did not improve  performance.  A study shows a correlation.  So what.  It does not equal causation.  Do they look at diet, exercise habits, etc...?  Face it they have their heads up their asses and the corporations asses they are supporting.

Last two points:

You will never know who did what.  So we will never know who juiced or took any other PED's (including the glory days).  Period!

And finally, you can see a problem, any problem, how about someone find a freakin solution?  In other words get off your lazy asses and try to fix something.  Get off the sidelines, like this forum, and come up with a solution, contact senators and congressmen, or organize protests.  Just fuckin do something that is for real!

Seriously if you care about it this much, then do something.

Otherwise you are just jerkin off onto your keyboard.

Mine is all crusty now so goodnight

PS wearing a yellow wristband is supporting a juicer.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 18, 2011, 03:29:04 am
PS wearing a yellow wristband is supporting a juicer.

lance armstrong failed tests?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: tychver on March 18, 2011, 04:19:37 am
PS wearing a yellow wristband is supporting a juicer.

lance armstrong failed tests?

Yeah he did. But the sample was an old one not kept to WADA standards, just hanging around for reasearch purposes, and he got off on a technicality.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: tychver on March 18, 2011, 05:06:49 am
So what are Usain Bolt, Tyson Gay & Asafa Powell juicing up on?.

Ok, first off, I'm a biochemistry student (double major with computer science and focusing on bioinformatics) but I'm by no means an expert so I could be completely wrong in some things but...

Synthetic endogenous steroid and peptide hormones. Testosterone, epitestosterone, HGH, IGF1 and insulin. Quite possibly cytomel or l-thyroxine as well. All pretty much undetecible. Peptide hormones are only detectible in blood which isn't tested out of competition and they clear in a matter of hours. Thyroid hormones are difficult to detect and clear pretty quickly too. All the limits of detection, tested metabolites etc are all published on the WADA site and make some fascinating reading for anyone interested in biochemistry.

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here about how PEDs are typically used by elite athletes. They're not doing bodybuilder inspired steroid cycles, packing on ridiculous amounts of muscle and then losing half of it while their natural hormone production is completely whacked. They're taking tiny amounts of stuff mainly with a focus on recovery and enhancing their natural capacity rather than taking doses which result in massive phisiological changes regardless of training.

Over the last 10 years massive improvements have been made in drug testing which has really tightened things up. Having said that I think steroid use, even in olympic weightlifting, has been wildly exaggerated where dosing and sophistication are concerned. The supposedly "sophisticated and systematic" Bulgarian olympic weightlifting doping program basically involved 2-10mg of Dianabol a day in the heavier weeks of their wave loaded training.

I doubt that many top level weightlifters, sprinters, cyclists, cross country skiiers are completely clean but they're not taking stuff that gives them a massive advantage because you simply can't with the improvements in testing.  PEDs that can get through current WADA testing are not a panacea for being a shit athlete. If you can't run low 10s or clean and jerk 180kg without them you're not going to suddenly win a gold medal with it.

Despite that I think the situation sucks for athletes. You're facing incredible pressure to succeed and succeding means doping for tiny gap between a doped oponent is still huge at elite level but doping is increasingly harder to get away with. Rock>athlete<hard place
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 18, 2011, 10:11:00 am
How am I making anything sound remotely like that?

Every cycle should be using testosterone (or at the very least tren), so I think it's fair to talk about the side effects of that as universal side effects of steroids. If they aren't using test, with that action, they are proving that they don't know what they are doing.

I'll go devils advocate:

Anecdotal evidence to the contrary:

Arnold and may others favorite cycles were deca and dbol.  Did arnie use test?  Most likely, but deca and dbol were his fav's and many others back in the day.

Also test, deca, dbol, tren, etc are easily tested for (much of the discussion has gone drugs in sports)so the goal isn;t better drugs it is less detectable ones.  Sacrifice better for not getting caught.

Lets get to studies: 

For DECADES, until the early 2000's, scientists claimed steroids did not improve  performance.  A study shows a correlation.  So what.  It does not equal causation.  Do they look at diet, exercise habits, etc...?  Face it they have their heads up their asses and the corporations asses they are supporting.

Last two points:

You will never know who did what.  So we will never know who juiced or took any other PED's (including the glory days).  Period!

And finally, you can see a problem, any problem, how about someone find a freakin solution?  In other words get off your lazy asses and try to fix something.  Get off the sidelines, like this forum, and come up with a solution, contact senators and congressmen, or organize protests.  Just fuckin do something that is for real!

Seriously if you care about it this much, then do something.

Otherwise you are just jerkin off onto your keyboard.

Mine is all crusty now so goodnight

PS wearing a yellow wristband is supporting a juicer.


Arnold also claimed he only took steroids for cutting. If he wasn't taking testosterone, maybe that's why he was 70 pounds less than Ronnie Coleman.

I assumed we were just talking about steroids for the recreational user. Not an athlete trying to get past tests.

I hate the you never know crap. Tons of people cheat the stock market with insider trading. Few get caught. We don't really know who does it. Does that mean we shouldn't be pissed at the people who do get caught and that they shouldn't get in trouble?

And I'm not really sure what your last rant is about. I wouldn't call myself a "lazy ass" for not "doing something" about this situation. Steroid use in sports aren't a big enough priority in my life where I'm going to waste years of my life trying to fight against it. But, that doesn't mean I shouldn't express my opinion about it.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 18, 2011, 11:03:50 am
FWIW I agree with JC and also tychver, to an extent. I don't think succeeding necessarily means doping, but I do think the temptation and pressure to dope is probably very intense. Wouldn't know for sure, I'm not and never will be an elite athlete. I'm not saying that makes it right when athletes do cheat. But I sympathize with the difficulty of the choice they face.

Not, however, with the choices made by people who are guilty of legal and illegal financial shenanigans. Fuck those people. Athletes taking PEDs are messing with their own bodies and at worst are providing a bad example for fans and younger trainees. People fucking about with investments are playing with other people's money and wealth. Otherwise, it's not a bad comparison.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 18, 2011, 11:12:34 am
FWIW I agree with JC and also tychver, to an extent. I don't think succeeding necessarily means doping, but I do think the temptation and pressure to dope is probably very intense. Wouldn't know for sure, I'm not and never will be an elite athlete. I'm not saying that makes it right when athletes do cheat. But I sympathize with the difficulty of the choice they face.

Not, however, with the choices made by people who are guilty of legal and illegal financial shenanigans. Fuck those people. Athletes taking PEDs are messing with their own bodies and at worst are providing a bad example for fans and younger trainees. People fucking about with investments are playing with other people's money and wealth. Otherwise, it's not a bad comparison.

Athletes who take PEDs are potentially taking away money from other athletes, and not to mention they are putting other athletes at risk. Boxers and MMA fighters taking PEDs to hit harder is a scary thought (and we all know how widespread PEDs are in combat sports)
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 18, 2011, 12:33:32 pm
FWIW I agree with JC and also tychver, to an extent. I don't think succeeding necessarily means doping, but I do think the temptation and pressure to dope is probably very intense. Wouldn't know for sure, I'm not and never will be an elite athlete. I'm not saying that makes it right when athletes do cheat. But I sympathize with the difficulty of the choice they face.

Not, however, with the choices made by people who are guilty of legal and illegal financial shenanigans. Fuck those people. Athletes taking PEDs are messing with their own bodies and at worst are providing a bad example for fans and younger trainees. People fucking about with investments are playing with other people's money and wealth. Otherwise, it's not a bad comparison.

Athletes who take PEDs are potentially taking away money from other athletes, and not to mention they are putting other athletes at risk. Boxers and MMA fighters taking PEDs to hit harder is a scary thought (and we all know how widespread PEDs are in combat sports)

good point
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Kellyb on March 24, 2011, 09:32:00 pm
Sorry I didn't see this until now.

Some of those posts are mine and I don't know why you guys are acting like it's such a big deal. I've directed several people to my posts at mind and muscle over the years.

I never used anything stronger than creatine for any sorta vert gain. I was prescribed transdermal testosterone gel back when I was 29 because I had anemia from rheumatoid disease,  but I only took it for a month. I experimented with a few of the PHs back when they were legal between 2003-2004.  I was heavy into exploring metabolic regulation and physiology back then, and various supplements are a big part of that, but I never used anything illegally.   Mind and muscle used to take things to another level supplementwise, but it was a supplement and physiology board not a steroid board.

Re beating drug test...not my idea. You'd be surprised at the number of athletes that have asked ME about that sorta thing.

Re the snorting anti-depressants - inositol is hardly an anti-depressant. It's an all natural b-vitamin. I still take it occassionally for a good all natural boost and I've posted about it in multiple places, including the DB hammer forum.

RE: my opinion on drugs - I don't recommend them and don't talk about them unless someone asks. Most athletes will take them on their own and say nothing to their coach (see Brian Cushing).  I've never recommended any athlete take drugs, but I have had athletes come to me already on drugs. Failure to understand supplements, drugs, and the mechanisms in which they work is failure to understand a good bit about a reality of sports as well as understanding physiology.



 
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 24, 2011, 09:36:57 pm
Alright, glad you posted. Since we know it's you, I'll just let the posts speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Kellyb on March 24, 2011, 09:39:38 pm
Quote
The comment about "not even trying to diet without anabolic assistance" is particularly crazy, wtf? Taking t3 for fat loss wtf? I really hope he's clean of any of that shit, but I remember I had shown kb's latspread pic and some other pic to a coach who knows alot about roids/ped's, not even thinking about that angle, and the first thing he said was "looks like he just came off a cycle of .... ", I laughed thinking b.s., ...

Also this is freaking hilarious.  I weighed a grand total of about 162 in that pic.

The "not even try to diet without assistance" comment is specific to skinny-fat hardgainers trying to get extremely lean. which is what the thread was about. Sorry, but some people can't get lean and spare all their muscle without some type of anabolic assistance, whether natural or illegal.  I'm sure JC knows that too.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: DamienZ on March 26, 2011, 06:24:05 am
Quote
The comment about "not even trying to diet without anabolic assistance" is particularly crazy, wtf? Taking t3 for fat loss wtf? I really hope he's clean of any of that shit, but I remember I had shown kb's latspread pic and some other pic to a coach who knows alot about roids/ped's, not even thinking about that angle, and the first thing he said was "looks like he just came off a cycle of .... ", I laughed thinking b.s., ...

Also this is freaking hilarious.  I weighed a grand total of about 162 in that pic.

The "not even try to diet without assistance" comment is specific to skinny-fat hardgainers trying to get extremely lean. which is what the thread was about. Sorry, but some people can't get lean and spare all their muscle without some type of anabolic assistance, whether natural or illegal.  I'm sure JC knows that too.

Really? It's hard for me to believe this...

edit: could we see those pics of you?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 26, 2011, 10:35:18 am
Quote
The comment about "not even trying to diet without anabolic assistance" is particularly crazy, wtf? Taking t3 for fat loss wtf? I really hope he's clean of any of that shit, but I remember I had shown kb's latspread pic and some other pic to a coach who knows alot about roids/ped's, not even thinking about that angle, and the first thing he said was "looks like he just came off a cycle of .... ", I laughed thinking b.s., ...

Also this is freaking hilarious.  I weighed a grand total of about 162 in that pic.

The "not even try to diet without assistance" comment is specific to skinny-fat hardgainers trying to get extremely lean. which is what the thread was about. Sorry, but some people can't get lean and spare all their muscle without some type of anabolic assistance, whether natural or illegal.  I'm sure JC knows that too.

That's it, adarq. He's got your number, there. It's time for you to start using or you'll never get to 140.

EDIT: THE ABOVE THREE SENTENCES CONSTITUTE WHAT IS KNOWN IN ENGLISH AS A "JOKE" OR "JEST." THE AUTHOR EVIDENTLY FAILED TO ADEQUATELY CONVEY THE INTENDED HUMOR. HE SUBMITS HIS APOLOGIES.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Kellyb on March 26, 2011, 11:06:11 am
First off, Adarqs not skinny-fat and never has been. He's not competing in bodybuilding. He's not carrying a level of upper body muscle mass way beyond his natural untrained weight, and he's not  attempting to diet down to 6% body-fat with a high degree of muscle mass (for him).   I'm pretty sure you know that too, Im also pretty sure you understand the importance of P ratio.  he shittier partitioning is when gaining muscle, the shittier it's gonna be when dropping fat.  Don't believe me, go ask Lyle if shitty bodybuilders can get to extreme levels of leanness without anabolic support without burning up a disproportionate amount of muscle mass.  Take someone like Raptor and try to diet him down to 6% body-fat and watch what happens.


Also, re: the obesity comment, no I was never obese, I did suffer from hypothyroidism for a while and had a hell of a time with fat gain. I pushed the supplement envelope in large part to deal with rheumatic disease which I started experiencing when I was 29. My symptoms were fairly mild as far as how bad the disease could potentially be, there are people that literally die from it, but it definitely jacked my  hormones -  testosterone, adrenals, thyroid, and cortisol. My metabolism was so jacked over the course of a year I gained about 15 lbs of fat eating about 1500 calories per day while losing muscle - and I was exercising as normal as possible. I did the wilson's thyroid treatment and  used the thyroid about 3 days before the side effects made me stop. I didn't know it at the time but without enough cortisol thyroid just leads to bad side effects.  The Prohormones I experimented with hoping to maintain some semblance of strength and physique with god awful testosterone levels -  4 AD just made me fat. 1 test was good as far as the muscular effects but made me TIRED as hell so it wasn't worth it. 4-OHT didn't do anything at all but immediately shut me down.  I used Phs a grand TOTAL of about 3.5 weeks over a 3 year period of time. Finally, after struggling for a couple of years as quickly as it started it all stopped and my body seemingly returned back to "almost" normal overnight. I still have some mild adrenal and thyroid issues and have some mild immune mediated inflammation in my feet and neck but it doesn't really limit me and everything else is pretty much back to normal. The only "drugs" or grey area supps I've taken the last 5 years are 12.5 mg of DHEA every other day (technically a PED OMG!!) caffeine, and a very occassional dose of ephedrine. I don't even take Tylenol. I wouldn't recommend anyone experiment with as much crap as I did unless they're just out looking to spend money (including herbs, aminos, and various other bullshit), but i used to get $200 worth of free supplements every month and a ton of samples and I made the most of it.  

BTW JC this was a bush league type of thread IMO.  If you were trying to do anything other than come across as a tattletale instigator trying to make me look bad you could have just asked me these questions instead of cherrypicking your way thru over 500 posts over a 5 year period of time and starting a thread about it.  I have no problems talking about steroids, PHS, whatever, or I wouldnt have been posting on a public forum. It's also extremely doubtful anyone who talks about aromotase inhibitors and testosterone the way you did would really feel as negative about LEGAL PHs of yesteryear as you're trying to embellish. You likely think because most here don't know anything about any of that stuff that it would just make me look bad. ("Oh here's Kelly talking about the PED EPHEDRINE ZOMG1!!).....That's bullshit. You know it. I know it. Anyone who read what you wrote and knows the first thing about hormones or anything else knows it.  You wanna talk about drugs, PHs, stimulants, or whatever start a thread on drug use in sports and we'll talk about it.


Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 26, 2011, 11:51:23 am
Kelly,

don't worry man.  JC seems just to be on this site just to instigate stuff.

I don't even know why he's here, all he seems to do is try to act hard and "call people out"
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 26, 2011, 12:35:16 pm
Kelly,

don't worry man.  JC seems just to be on this site just to instigate stuff.

I don't even know why he's here, all he seems to do is try to act hard and "call people out"

I realize you play college soccer, but you do realize I'm stronger and more "athletic" than you by a mile? And no, I wasn't always that way. I weighed about 155 pounds after I got my puberty gains, and that's not a very lean 155 (not skinny fat though), and while I could jump high by average person standards, I put about 8-9 inches on my jump.

If you think all I do here is "call people out", you should check my log. While I'm not always active with logging, I guarantee I train as hard as anybody on this site.

Now back on topic
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 26, 2011, 12:39:35 pm
Quote
but you do realize I'm stronger

True
Quote
more "athletic" than you by a mile

False.  Or better yet, prove me wrong: what are your svj, rvj, and 40 yd times?


Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: LBSS on March 26, 2011, 12:41:15 pm
Quote
but you do realize I'm stronger

True
Quote
more "athletic" than you by a mile

False.  Or better yet, prove me wrong: what are your svj, rvj, and 40 yd times?




oh my god both of you please shut the fuck up or take it up in PM's. nobody cares which one of you has a bigger dick or can thrust it deeper in the other one's anus.

jc, i know this is your thread and all, but seriously. this is embarrassing.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 26, 2011, 12:43:38 pm
JC made the claims...now he's gonna have to back it up.

this thread is a joke anyways...whats wrong with derailing it?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 26, 2011, 12:59:56 pm
BTW JC this was a bush league type of thread IMO.  If you were trying to do anything other than come across as a tattletale instigator trying to make me look bad you could have just asked me these questions instead of cherrypicking your way thru over 500 posts over a 5 year period of time and starting a thread about it.  I have no problems talking about steroids, PHS, whatever, or I wouldnt have been posting on a public forum. It's also extremely doubtful anyone who talks about aromotase inhibitors and testosterone the way you did would really feel as negative about LEGAL PHs of yesteryear as you're trying to embellish. You likely think because most here don't know anything about any of that stuff that it would just make me look bad. ("Oh here's Kelly talking about the PED EPHEDRINE ZOMG1!!).....That's bullshit. You know it. I know it. Anyone who read what you wrote and knows the first thing about hormones or anything else knows it.  You wanna talk about drugs, PHs, stimulants, or whatever start a thread on drug use in sports and we'll talk about it.

If it was so "bush league" it wouldn't have all the responses it got. I wasn't going for any shock value, because I said everything you took was legal (besides the testosterone and t3 but apparently you had prescriptions). Legality was never an issue, the issue was if the drugs tainted your accomplishments because you sell your product using your accomplishments as a marketing point. Most people on here and vert bro forums look at you as a god, and they don't want to take PEDs. If you took them or suggested them to any of the athletes you train, then the people should know. You cleared it up saying you didn't take any PHs on your "vert journey", so whatever.

If I really wanted to make you look bad, I'd just say your vert claims are bullshit and the amount of people you claim to have trained is exaggerated. I'd also bring up your pathetic attempts at damage control for the Maroko situation, even though we all know you are laughing straight to the bank while he sells a bunch of rehashed information. And no, I'm not the only one who thinks this. Hell, I'm not the only one who thought the PH use was a potential problem. Notice how the anabolic assistance screen cap is big and highlighted by a mac, yet all the rest of the screen caps were taken using Ubuntu.  People on here are just afraid of speaking their mind for some reason, even though this is an anonymous internet forum.

If I just wanted to show off my investigating skills I'd pick someone a little more relevant in the S&C industry than you. I don't try to impress people on here with anything. If I did, I wouldn't have a log with my pathetic stats, I wouldn't take pictures of my shitty physique, and I wouldn't engage in rap battles with 13 year olds from Indiana. I would probably post a picture of me dunking from 1993, sell a jump product using that picture, and claim every injury known to man so I can't be asked to prove my jumping.

Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 26, 2011, 02:04:06 pm
And also I was done with you lamp, but I like how you criticize me for "calling people out". Look at how many people Adarqui has called out. I don't see you saying anything about him. You scared of bashing one of the higher ups? Just go the trainer mike route and go on bodybuilding.com under a different username and do it.

I also PM'd you my stats. Those serve no purpose to this thread so if you wanna talk about those some more just reply to the PM.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: bball2020 on March 26, 2011, 06:37:39 pm
if u didnt want to start shit, why didnt you just PM Kelly or ask him questions first? You know he posts on here regularly. Dont care that you like to post your opinions on people, just think there are better ways to present questions and accusations. 
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Raptor on March 26, 2011, 07:30:42 pm
Take someone like Raptor and try to diet him down to 6% body-fat and watch what happens.

What happens?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 26, 2011, 07:59:50 pm
if u didnt want to start shit, why didnt you just PM Kelly or ask him questions first? You know he posts on here regularly. Dont care that you like to post your opinions on people, just think there are better ways to present questions and accusations.  

What good would have come out from that? What accusations did I make that Kelly didn't already admit in the posts?
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 27, 2011, 01:02:52 am
And also I was done with you lamp, but I like how you criticize me for "calling people out". Look at how many people Adarqui has called out. I don't see you saying anything about him. You scared of bashing one of the higher ups? Just go the trainer mike route and go on bodybuilding.com under a different username and do it.

I also PM'd you my stats. Those serve no purpose to this thread so if you wanna talk about those some more just reply to the PM.

I see no problem with 98% of the people you or adarq have called out.

However, I do think its disrespectful to call out kellyb or alexv because they have shown that they are knowledgeable and they are really helpful and help this site a lot.

I feel like now you and adarq to some extent are just looking for people to call out, just trying to start trouble.  Is it justified?  As I said above for the most part, yes...but...

Its annoying because I feel like it isn't necessary.  Just focus on what you personally are doing...lead by example
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 27, 2011, 01:29:49 am
Kelly's knowledge has never been in question. Neither has Maroko's, Adam Link's, Taylor Allan's, etc.. That was never the point of call em out.

I haven't called AlexV out. He hasn't done anything to be worth calling out besides misunderstanding one of my posts on dbhammer. I actually was meaning to put him on my approved coaches list but I forgot.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 27, 2011, 01:30:52 am
And also I was done with you lamp, but I like how you criticize me for "calling people out". Look at how many people Adarqui has called out. I don't see you saying anything about him. You scared of bashing one of the higher ups? Just go the trainer mike route and go on bodybuilding.com under a different username and do it.

I also PM'd you my stats. Those serve no purpose to this thread so if you wanna talk about those some more just reply to the PM.

I see no problem with 98% of the people you or adarq have called out.

However, I do think its disrespectful to call out kellyb or alexv because they have shown that they are knowledgeable and they are really helpful and help this site a lot.

I feel like now you and adarq to some extent are just looking for people to call out, just trying to start trouble.  Is it justified?  As I said above for the most part, yes...but...

Its annoying because I feel like it isn't necessary.  Just focus on what you personally are doing...lead by example

who have I called out just to start trouble, or who didn't completely deserve it?

I didn't call out KellyB for anything, if I were too it would be on his vert claims / association with Maroko, not any possible PED usage etc. But I havn't called him out so far, so that is left to future issues if they do occur, not anything that has occurred until this point in time.

Everyone should be called out, including myself, it's just how the system gets refined & improved.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 27, 2011, 01:39:21 am
like i said for the most part its deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on calling them out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by proving your methods to work, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 27, 2011, 01:44:17 am
like i said for the most part its deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on calling them out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by proving your methods to work, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

I think informing people of who they are purchasing from, or letting them know about scams is a good use of time. If you're not into that, then so be it. My "vert forum" background is part of the reason why I'm passionate about this.

This really didn't take much time to do. I'm a regular lurker of anabolic minds. I've spent more time debating with you.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Kellyb on March 27, 2011, 01:54:22 am


JC, people are free to believe and follow whoever they want and it's not like I push my stuff on people or follow protocol of a marketing machine, but I seem to recall you already stating you don't doubt the quality of my work. I've always thought you were a pretty good guy the problem I have is the approach you took in your OP. You sounded like you were trying really hard to sound like an ignorant member of the general public who thinks anything stronger than protein would immediately cause one to lose a nut and go into convulsions straight to the emergency room. If you would've asked me in a thread if I ever took grey area compounds or anything else I'd tell you. Hell I've discussed it before back on the DB hammer forum:

http://dbhammer.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=nutrition&thread=2826&page=1

U make it sound like I was openly advising athletes how to beat a drug test to beat ephedrine, when the thread in question was a regular ol' Joe office worker who regularly took ephedrine and was trying to not falsely test positive for amphetamines at his job.

Then you say I was "snorting anti-depressants" - when I'm pretty sure you know inositol isn't a friggin anti-depressant (it's also 50 x more economical intranasally - 10grams oral inositol = ~200 mg intranasal)

Then you post my comments about coagulation and sesathin, as if it's some off beat dangerous drug - sesathin is just sesame seed extract..an oil much like fish oil.

Getting claustrophobia scuba diving? Yeah it happened. WTF does that have to do with anything.

7-keto?  7-keto-DHEA, a popular general health/life extension supplement.

IMO that's just intentionally trying to sensationalize crap.

If you or anyone else wants to start thread on supplement (or drug) opinions and experiences I'd be more than happy to discuss my opinons and experience on any and all compounds I know about. I think it would be interesting but I personally don't think I can recall anyone I know that's ever got any direct vert or speed improvements from supplement or drug use, so it might not be much more than theoretical masturbation.


Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Kellyb on March 27, 2011, 01:58:54 am
Take someone like Raptor and try to diet him down to 6% body-fat and watch what happens.

What happens?

Errr I forgot you used to be really ripped at one time weren't you? If that's the case maybe you're not the best example but I know you've discussed your work capacity problems and propensity towards being a worrywort....that in combination with an ectomorphic physique usually leads to sky high stress hormones and less than optimal endocrine status....and when you diet hardcore that just gets even worse which typically leads to a ton of muscle loss. 
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: TheSituation on March 27, 2011, 02:06:59 am
You're right about the anti-depressants thing. I apologize

What else did I claim in the OP that wasn't true? You took prohormones, you took Testosterone, and you took T3. Those are facts. I didn't claim anything else. I said it was possible they could have tainted your vert claims, you said they didn't, discussion over.

Like I said, if my sole purpose was just to make you look bad, I would have just brought up your vert claims and your association with Maroko.
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 27, 2011, 03:35:31 am
like i said for the most part its deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on calling them out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by proving your methods to work, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

like i said for the most part it deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on complaining about the call em out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by working out, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that complaining about calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: Raptor on March 27, 2011, 07:15:31 am
Take someone like Raptor and try to diet him down to 6% body-fat and watch what happens.

What happens?

Errr I forgot you used to be really ripped at one time weren't you? If that's the case maybe you're not the best example but I know you've discussed your work capacity problems and propensity towards being a worrywort....that in combination with an ectomorphic physique usually leads to sky high stress hormones and less than optimal endocrine status....and when you diet hardcore that just gets even worse which typically leads to a ton of muscle loss. 

Yup... although I stayed at ~67 kg for ~5 years, and now I'm at ~82 kg for ~5 years...
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: lamp on March 27, 2011, 10:38:56 am
like i said for the most part its deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on calling them out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by proving your methods to work, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

like i said for the most part it deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on complaining about the call em out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by working out, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that complaining about calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

ha ha ha ha

well played sir
Title: Re: Kelly Baggett's use of Steroids, Pro Hormones, Hormones, and Other Drugs
Post by: adarqui on March 27, 2011, 11:09:17 am
like i said for the most part its deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on calling them out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by proving your methods to work, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

like i said for the most part it deserved...

however, i think the time and effort spent on complaining about the call em out could be more productively used...

i.e. you would "say" much more by working out, which is what you're doing.  I'm just trying to say that I think that complaining about calling people out for the most part is an exercise in futility

ha ha ha ha

well played sir

:F