Author Topic: Some post on another forum: Why people fail  (Read 8053 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29222
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +6783
    • View Profile
    • Email
Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« on: March 27, 2010, 08:00:42 pm »
0

dno, I liked it, good info for the blog. It goes good with my recent post discussing the verkhoshansky quote.

http://wgfforum.llsint.com/Forums/showthread.php?p=6600&posted=1#post6600

peace



Quote from: Kesh;6597
I never saw one single person improve in athletic ability, not one

The biggest problem with those programs, is that they usually do not manage fatigue properly. Genetic freaks will make the most progress, because their explosive strength deficit won't grow as much, as well as they recover faster. Everyone has different work capacities, to a point, so that training might be improving 20% of the team, but the other 80% could be sinking into a hole, never (or rarely) fully reaching a supercompensatory state for the next session. Managing fatigue is probably the most important factor concerning make progress in training, and this is where most people fail.

The problem with pretty much all of those programs, is that they focus almost entirely on max strength & hypertrophy. Someone who is not a genetic freak, is going to have to make sure that they don't increase max strength TOO MUCH without a rise in explosive strength, ie, making sure the explosive strength deficit does not grow. With less naturally explosive individuals, explosive strength will stall far sooner than max strength, so the deficit grows out of control. This is something I've come to realize with my own training & that of those I train, but it's also something Verkhoshansky has said on many occasions.

"in other words, what kind of training method has been used for the maximal strength increasing - if this strength has been developed using Bodybuilding methods (with muscle hypertrophy), it could not assure the explosive strength increasing." -- Verkhoshansky


Those programs also use inferior methods for improving explosive strength, such as power cleans. I call them inferior because, i'd say the majority of athletes in these programs have horrible form, so there are better alternatives, such as: REA squat, depth jumps, REA lunge, jump squats, clean pulls.

Those programs also, for the most part, lack a good implementation of reactive drills, such as low squat ankle hops, quick lunges, lateral barrier jumps, RFI, stiff leg ankle hops, double leg bounds (hurdle jumps). Maintaining proficiency or improving in these exercises is fundamental to becoming a better athlete.

I am far from a genetic freak, considering I could barely touch a basketball rim my whole life, with a 10'4 touch at age 25. I spent nearly 2 years getting my touch up to 11'3.5". The most effective training during this time, came towards the end, when I learned how to manage fatigue properly, creating ramps/trampolines by inducing fatigue with high frequency training microcycles, and then rebounding out & taking advantage of the supercompensation.

I've trained plenty of athletes, but a good example of managing fatigue came recently with my friend ARowe who I have been talking to for a year or so online. His SVJ/RVJ was suffering for months, it had dropped about 4 inches from his previous PR. He was just going in and lifting, focusing entirely on getting his squat up. So, he decided to put a technique I used during my high freq training to use, MSEM (maximal strength effort method ala Verkhoshansky). I helped him implement it, which calls for no-multi rep squatting sets, only singles with rest in between reps of a set. His SVJ/RVJ PR'd within 3 weeks. Through that 5 week block, he learned how to manage fatigue. HE KNEW when he would PR, and when he would not, a week in advance. He could FEEL how he would respond, prior to training. His work capacity is not near mine, as i'm a chronic over-worker with an insane work capacity, but he did experience the SAME EXACT results that I did. That being, learning how his body supercompensates and being able to design short blocks to peak vert using higher frequency training.

The point is, the meat of all this training we do IS IN the programming, not in some magical method such as iso extremes. iso extremes could be implemented into a traditional program with much success, but playing with fatigue levels and supercompensation is the key to making progress athletically. This is where everyone is failing, on all of the forums I visit.

I've looked through nearly EVERY log on db forum/TVS, a few on CF.

Work capacity needs to improve. Creating ramps/trampolines & rebounding needs to be mastered. Getting stronger, adding muscle in the right muscle groups, needs to happen.


Quote

I'm not so sure they are better, IMO. I've never implemented WGF's methods in my own training, but I can see how it would be very effective when implemented properly. It has all of the elements of a successful system.

I still prefer traditional methods though.

Quote
Also, I have incredible

Training evolved, through the work of these coaches, then, through the insane growth of the s&c field, is beginning to de-evolve. Everyone wants to put their spin on training, create something new, come up with some magical formula.

Just like Schroeder or his cult disciples would say: The answers are already there, but i'm referring to the coaches you mentioned.

Quote
Sometimes

I'm not big on the whole compensation patterns/corrective exercise department. Sure, I'm for implementing corrective exercises, but i'm not for spending years trying to reprogram someone from the ground up.

To me, if someone is moving awkwardly, it's because they are not strong, or they lack movement efficiency (which is a result of strength). Even some of the best athletes move ugly or different from what we perceive as optimal.

If you get strong in the right muscle groups, as well as put in the required work on the track, you will get faster.

From what I see, most less-genetic athletes put too much dreams into the s&c program, and not on the track. Both of these elements fuse together to create progress. The problem is, I see people spending way too much time in the weight room, yet they want to get fast. To get fast, you have to put in the work on the track. The frequency of sprinting needs to improve, whether it be tempo or closer to maximal runs, the work has to get done. These athletes also have to improve their mastery on other, yet transferable movements, such as bounding and hops, which I rarely see. How many people do you see who want to improve their 40, learn to bound properly? But, this work cannot be done at the exclusion of improving lagging muscle groups such as the glutes & hamstrings. When proper attention is paid to both of these elements, progress is made.

If strength is improved, especially in the most important muscles groups required for sprinting, and sprinting is not neglected, and new movements are improved and mastered (bounds/hops/reactive), and fatigue levels are managed properly to ensure a top speed session IS TRULY top speed (supercompensated session), then there is no way that this athlete will not improve.


Quote

Well ya, because they don't waste time with people who aren't going to be the cream of the crop. But for aspiring athletes, insane progress can be made. Athletes spin their wheels when phony coaches mislead.

peace

ESav15

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • Respect: +36
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2010, 09:04:40 pm »
+1
so basically
strenght base-muscle building+specific movement mastery+proper fatigue managing=success

Lack in one of those departments=FAIL

Am I forgetting something?


Andrew, I'm serious man, I must  stop reading your posts for a bit. If I really care about my health, I just have to.
I mean, it's not fair to be so motivating.
all of those infos, principles and concepts... damn! I'm injured, I should be patient, and all I can think about right now is "gotta start training again no matter what"

Again: not fair.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 09:12:25 pm by ESav15 »

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29222
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +6783
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2010, 10:31:23 pm »
0
so basically
strenght base-muscle building+specific movement mastery+proper fatigue managing=success

Lack in one of those departments=FAIL

Am I forgetting something?

nope, you pretty much nailed it. There are times within a training protocol, where one of those components will be emphasized more than the others.  For example, early on strength & hypertrophy could be the primary focus, with movement prep/maintenance (reactive drills/plyo prep). If strength isn't rising significantly during this period, fatigue management will be the key. As you transition into peaking your performance, expressing the strength gained via higher intensity/lower volume training becomes the primary focus, so again, fatigue management becomes important.

Gains rely alot on how fatigue is managed, there should be some kind of overall plan. If the plan is to go hard for 4 weeks, knowing full well that performance may suffer, then following the 4 weeks, during a realization phase, one would expect to rebound significantly from that 4 week block, for at least 4 weeks, perhaps even longer depending on how concentrated the block was. A fatigue block could be 1 week, 4 weeks, 1 session, etc. One must understand that, while improving strength or adding muscle using moderate to high volume routines, performance may suffer, this could be due to RFD decreasing (due to a decrease in starting strength) or other factors such as inadequate recovery / nutrition etc. Starting strength will decrease because of how potent the multi-rep lifing stimulus is, why would the body give you everything in rep 1 when it has learned that there are 4-7 more reps left? It won't, it adapts. Type IIx fibers will shift more towards the characteristics of IIa fibers. This leads to a "slower profile". Even though this occurs, you can still actually make gains in vert, because, regardless of starting strength decreasing, peak strength is improving, and vert takes a considerable amount of time to express. Once you reduce fatigue & peak, starting strength will improve resulting in an improved RFD compared to the initial level, type IIa fibers will overshoot to type IIx fibers, and power will peak. Fatigue is going to effect speed alot more than vert, considering the importance of RFD, ground contact times & need for optimal limb quickness.


Quote
Andrew, I'm serious man, I must  stop reading your posts for a bit. If I really care about my health, I just have to.
I mean, it's not fair to be so motivating.
all of those infos, principles and concepts... damn! I'm injured, I should be patient, and all I can think about right now is "gotta start training again no matter what"

Again: not fair.

I apologize... hahaha! Can't wait to see you healthy again.

Maintain some kind of upperbody strength would be my advice. I personally would also perform leg exercises that do not hurt your knee, such as double leg glute bridges and/or calf raises. If you are planning on doing anything like that for your hips, ask your doctor first of course. There's always something we can do while injured to improve our abilities, that's just how i've always approached it.

peace man!

ESav15

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • Respect: +36
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2010, 06:37:10 am »
0
Well, it worked just as you wrote above for me.
At the beginning, the strenght gains transfer into vert was quite significant. I was surprised to the point I actually thought I could have focused only on lifting hard and see results despite neglecting everything else. Then my vert kinda plateaued a bit. So I went into your "power-strenght" routine, doing some stuff I never did before and cutting the volume with the weights in order to be fresh + stim two days before a dunk session and I was able to jump like never before. So, basing on my personal experience, I can only say your words are gold. Period.


Anyway, I'm actually training Upper body-core-doing calf raises right now.
 ;)

nothing more than that though.

I should have my MRI next week, so keep your fingers crossed for me.



« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 09:27:25 am by ESav15 »

vag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4934
  • Respect: +2590
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2010, 07:12:00 am »
0
Thats an awesome post , its the missing link for so many people!
woot

mattyg35

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • Respect: +47
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2010, 11:24:32 am »
0
Yeah, I wouldn't mind learning more about "methods' of fatigue management.
Would you be able to elaborate on this some more Andrew? Possibly provide some sample guidelines? or what to look for? ie When is optimal to change phases, signs of too much fatigue or not enough.

I know in Supertraining, Siff went into concentrated loading a bit, and different 'Strengths' ie explosive, acceleration, starting, absolute, max, etc, they would all decrease for a certain time and then rebound for up to a few months, and then you keep repeating this.

piR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
  • Respect: -144
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2010, 12:45:30 pm »
0
Again, this is why I think Andrew is a genius and more knowledgeable than 99.999% of all trainers. I've read tons of articles by the "top" trainers in the business, and adarq blows them all away considerably..

nba8340

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
  • Respect: +8
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2010, 03:07:10 pm »
0
which top trainers are you talking about rip?

mattyg35

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 471
  • Respect: +47
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2010, 03:25:02 pm »
0
which top trainers are you talking about rip?

Duh Alex Maroko

LOL

piR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
  • Respect: -144
    • View Profile
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2010, 03:25:21 pm »
0
which top trainers are you talking about rip?
I put top in quotation marks because they are thought to be the smartest, best, etc. But people like cressey, boyle, etc. the big names in the "educated" s&c community.

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29222
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +6783
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2010, 04:54:19 pm »
0
Well, it worked just as you wrote above for me.
At the beginning, the strenght gains transfer into vert was quite significant. I was surprised to the point I actually thought I could have focused only on lifting hard and see results despite neglecting everything else. Then my vert kinda plateaued a bit. So I went into your "power-strenght" routine, doing some stuff I never did before and cutting the volume with the weights in order to be fresh + stim two days before a dunk session and I was able to jump like never before. So, basing on my personal experience, I can only say your words are gold. Period.

thanks, I was real happy that stuff was working so well for you :F

ya I remember, you had a great string of PR's with some very nice throw downs.

Quote
Anyway, I'm actually training Upper body-core-doing calf raises right now.
 ;)

nothing more than that though.

nice..

Quote
I should have my MRI next week, so keep your fingers crossed for me.

ya man I definitely am.. hope you don't need surgery.

pc

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29222
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +6783
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2010, 05:55:29 pm »
0
Yeah, I wouldn't mind learning more about "methods' of fatigue management.
Would you be able to elaborate on this some more Andrew? Possibly provide some sample guidelines? or what to look for? ie When is optimal to change phases, signs of too much fatigue or not enough.

Ya I should do a better write up on it and post it, I'll get around to it. Not sure how I would structure it, at this point, since i've moved from trying to calculate those things, to basically just using "feel" to cut sessions short or to go hard etc.

If you wanted to measure fatigue created by a session, you could use the drop off method & rule of thirds:

Quote
http://inno-sport.net/Training%20Basics.htm



Ok so, I went from caring about measuring to just going by feel. I've taken enough measurements to know that, if I perform low volume + high intensity lifts, such as a squat, I will be peaking 48-72 hours after. One tool I use to make sure I'm firing on all cylinders, is a stop watch. I can't find it atm but, it's a great brand for doing the "stopwatch double click". I'll double click it in the morning a bunch of times, based on these readings I know how I will be performing that day, so it helps me measure my "freshness". If i'm getting 0.07-0.1 on most of the double clicks, then I know I will be firing on all cylinders. If i'm > 0.1, then I know I still have some level of fatigue. This could either help me delay the workout to the next day, OR do some kind of light recovery workout (such as light jumps/glute stuff etc).

So, stuff I'll use for creating a nice delayed supercompensation effect of 48-72 hours on my vert:
  • Singles, doubles, or triples on squat: dropping off on bar speed or "feeling tired"
  • 4x5 depth jumps: Check my instant RFD part I for the graphs


I'll also make use of those things, in concentration, for blocks etc, to get an overall effect. I'll post my 2-week squat routine thing tonight, that's a good example of it. I've used that routine on myself and for a few others with great results. It's just a out of nowhere really concentrated strength block with skill maintenance, then you just fly out of it for a few weeks.

As for volumnous lifting, I have no "supercompensation technique" for performance. Meaning, if someone is doing 3x5, 3x8, 4x10, etc, the focus is on hypertrophy/strength, so I'm not really looking at supercompensation performance wise. To break out of that fatigue rut in such a block, I'd use multiple sessions of MSEM (squat singles), for about say 1-2 a week for 1-2 weeks. That would effectively help break you out of that fatigue rut, in a very short period of time. Much better than all of these complete deloads I see people doing.

Sorry for not posting more, I need to do a proper write up on this stuff. Plus I have to go I'll bbl, but I'll put that 2-week squat routine thing up & the results it had with one of the people I trained.



Quote
I know in Supertraining, Siff went into concentrated loading a bit, and different 'Strengths' ie explosive, acceleration, starting, absolute, max, etc, they would all decrease for a certain time and then rebound for up to a few months, and then you keep repeating this.

Ya man.. except, Absolute/Max can actually improve, because the time it takes to perform these lifts is long. Explosive strength (accel/starting) will definitely decrease for the most part, during concentrated loading. It may spike out of nowhere during a few sessions, but then it'll drive back down. Taking advantage of that rebound is then the key. You don't necessarily have to keep repeating this, but it can be done. Concentrated loading blocks can really take it's toll, so if you don't chain them together, the key would be to NOT detrain during the next gpp/strength block etc. The quality of the work would have to be better than the last time you performed gpp/strength, can't let it regress. Chaining concentrated loading blocks is definitely possible though, I mean I basically did it when I performed my first high frequency squat experiment (1 month), then realized gains for another month or so, then went back on high frequency (new protocol) for about 2 months if I recall correctly.

peace man

Kellyb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
  • Respect: +49
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2010, 03:26:33 pm »
0
Along those lines of monitoring fatigue, another thing you can do is measure a particular movement or skill throughout a training week to see where you're at compared to baseline.  The supercompensation curve can work off weekly cumulative fatigue as well.  For example, the split I mentioned the other day went like this:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

Well you know if you can't get wednesdays 95% weight up or if it's really a struggle you're fatigued 5% from baseline, which is really perfect, because you basically have thursday thru sunday off to supercompensate.  You could literally take a particular movement and do it every single day fresh until you reach a predetermined "drop-off" point, measured by how much your fresh efforts change on a daily basis, then take some time off to recover and supercompensate.  During the recovery period, you have to do enough to maintain fitness and movement efficiency, but the focus is generally on recovery.  

The amount of fatigue you want to induce though will vary based on the quality:

strength work: 5-10%
power work: (VJ/10 yd dash) 3-5%
top speed:  0-3%

So, take a movement like depth jumps. Say you have a 30 inch unmotivated VJ. An effort you can do any time.  You decide to do depth jumps every day until your VJ drops off a fresh 3% (or about 1 inch) So everyday you do depth jumps and every day you monitor your VJ.  
 
On day 1 you first measure your VJ then do 20 depth jumps (or simply do them until you start to dropoff)

you do the same on day 2
do the same on day 3
do the same on day 4

You keep doing that until one day your fresh (unmotivated) VJ is only 29 inches.  It might take 1 day, might be 2 days, or might be an entire week or longer.  But once you hit that point it mean's your "system" has accumulated 3% fatigue, so  you then take a lower volume period so that you can supercompensate.  That lower volume period will generally be as long as the number of days it took you to get in the hole, or you can just use the rule of 3rds described above.

That approach will work, however, it kinda sux for scheduling because you don't know what you're gonna be doing tomorrow or the next day or further on in the week.  It also sux if you're doing anything else during a workout or week that might interfere with your ability to monitor fatigue.  So what you can do is experiment and use enough intensity and volume each workout to know you'll be fairly close to fatiguing on a certain schedule.  The drop-offs don't have to be perfect and the schedules don't have to be perfect, as long as the general concepts hold up.   Take that little template I mentioned above:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

It can generally be assumed that after performing a given movement at an increasing intensity for 3 days straight that some level of fatigue will have accumulated in most people.  That makes the schedule viable for most, but others may need to adjust it as some will accumulate too much fatigue while some not enough.  In general it holds up though.

You can also base fatigue off of general accumulative nervous system stress.  Fatigue cycles can be over days, weeks, or even months.    You can monitor it thru hormone levels, heart rate variability (omega wave does this), and a ton of other things.  But the general principles are the same.  I think the weekly cycles are cool and easy to grasp for most people.  I'm pretty sure that's what Jay Schroeder does.  He goes 3 on 1 off, 3 on-2 off doing the same stuff every day.  

It is amazing what the body can tolerate/adapt to given 2 consecutive days mostly off at the end of a week/cycle.  

There are some posts/articles by Glenn Pendlay over on the DB forum that talk about how he does this with his o-lifters using monthly cycles.  Basically 5 x 5  three x per week for 4-6 weeks followed by 3 x 3 once every 4th-th day for 4 weeks.

One more thing: I'm with you Andrew as far as monitoring intra-session drop-offs for power/speed work.  In my experience it was more trouble then it was worth.  Rather, I'd terminate a workout as soon as their as any drop-off at all, as once workout quality has declined the positive training effect is pretty well done too.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 03:28:22 pm by Kellyb »

AlexV

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 145
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
    • Evolutionary Athletics
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2010, 05:15:53 pm »
0
Along those lines of monitoring fatigue, another thing you can do is measure a particular movement or skill throughout a training week to see where you're at compared to baseline.  The supercompensation curve can work off weekly cumulative fatigue as well.  For example, the split I mentioned the other day went like this:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

Well you know if you can't get wednesdays 95% weight up or if it's really a struggle you're fatigued 5% from baseline, which is really perfect, because you basically have thursday thru sunday off to supercompensate.  You could literally take a particular movement and do it every single day fresh until you reach a predetermined "drop-off" point, measured by how much your fresh efforts change on a daily basis, then take some time off to recover and supercompensate.  During the recovery period, you have to do enough to maintain fitness and movement efficiency, but the focus is generally on recovery.  

The amount of fatigue you want to induce though will vary based on the quality:

strength work: 5-10%
power work: (VJ/10 yd dash) 3-5%
top speed:  0-3%

So, take a movement like depth jumps. Say you have a 30 inch unmotivated VJ. An effort you can do any time.  You decide to do depth jumps every day until your VJ drops off a fresh 3% (or about 1 inch) So everyday you do depth jumps and every day you monitor your VJ.  
 
On day 1 you first measure your VJ then do 20 depth jumps (or simply do them until you start to dropoff)

you do the same on day 2
do the same on day 3
do the same on day 4

You keep doing that until one day your fresh (unmotivated) VJ is only 29 inches.  It might take 1 day, might be 2 days, or might be an entire week or longer.  But once you hit that point it mean's your "system" has accumulated 3% fatigue, so  you then take a lower volume period so that you can supercompensate.  That lower volume period will generally be as long as the number of days it took you to get in the hole, or you can just use the rule of 3rds described above.

That approach will work, however, it kinda sux for scheduling because you don't know what you're gonna be doing tomorrow or the next day or further on in the week.  It also sux if you're doing anything else during a workout or week that might interfere with your ability to monitor fatigue.  So what you can do is experiment and use enough intensity and volume each workout to know you'll be fairly close to fatiguing on a certain schedule.  The drop-offs don't have to be perfect and the schedules don't have to be perfect, as long as the general concepts hold up.   Take that little template I mentioned above:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

It can generally be assumed that after performing a given movement at an increasing intensity for 3 days straight that some level of fatigue will have accumulated in most people.  That makes the schedule viable for most, but others may need to adjust it as some will accumulate too much fatigue while some not enough.  In general it holds up though.

You can also base fatigue off of general accumulative nervous system stress.  Fatigue cycles can be over days, weeks, or even months.    You can monitor it thru hormone levels, heart rate variability (omega wave does this), and a ton of other things.  But the general principles are the same.  I think the weekly cycles are cool and easy to grasp for most people.  I'm pretty sure that's what Jay Schroeder does.  He goes 3 on 1 off, 3 on-2 off doing the same stuff every day.  

It is amazing what the body can tolerate/adapt to given 2 consecutive days mostly off at the end of a week/cycle.  

There are some posts/articles by Glenn Pendlay over on the DB forum that talk about how he does this with his o-lifters using monthly cycles.  Basically 5 x 5  three x per week for 4-6 weeks followed by 3 x 3 once every 4th-th day for 4 weeks.

One more thing: I'm with you Andrew as far as monitoring intra-session drop-offs for power/speed work.  In my experience it was more trouble then it was worth.  Rather, I'd terminate a workout as soon as their as any drop-off at all, as once workout quality has declined the positive training effect is pretty well done too.

Great post Kelly.  I recall years ago on the DB forum I was advocating training power and speed work until performance begins to drop. 

I am also certain that what you are talking about is how jay trains to a drop off (say 10%) every session.  Of course this also fits into the inno frequency-fatigue model, to an extent.  Especially at the higher level of inno with high frequency high fatigue the slingshoting into the traditional 4 day scale (4-6% do then 4 days rest).

Check out the new look and updates

http://evolutionaryathletics.com

adarqui

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29222
  • who run it.
  • Respect: +6783
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Some post on another forum: Why people fail
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2010, 11:11:34 pm »
0
Along those lines of monitoring fatigue, another thing you can do is measure a particular movement or skill throughout a training week to see where you're at compared to baseline.  The supercompensation curve can work off weekly cumulative fatigue as well.  For example, the split I mentioned the other day went like this:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

Well you know if you can't get wednesdays 95% weight up or if it's really a struggle you're fatigued 5% from baseline, which is really perfect, because you basically have thursday thru sunday off to supercompensate.  You could literally take a particular movement and do it every single day fresh until you reach a predetermined "drop-off" point, measured by how much your fresh efforts change on a daily basis, then take some time off to recover and supercompensate.  During the recovery period, you have to do enough to maintain fitness and movement efficiency, but the focus is generally on recovery.  

The amount of fatigue you want to induce though will vary based on the quality:

strength work: 5-10%
power work: (VJ/10 yd dash) 3-5%
top speed:  0-3%

So, take a movement like depth jumps. Say you have a 30 inch unmotivated VJ. An effort you can do any time.  You decide to do depth jumps every day until your VJ drops off a fresh 3% (or about 1 inch) So everyday you do depth jumps and every day you monitor your VJ.  
 
On day 1 you first measure your VJ then do 20 depth jumps (or simply do them until you start to dropoff)

you do the same on day 2
do the same on day 3
do the same on day 4

You keep doing that until one day your fresh (unmotivated) VJ is only 29 inches.  It might take 1 day, might be 2 days, or might be an entire week or longer.  But once you hit that point it mean's your "system" has accumulated 3% fatigue, so  you then take a lower volume period so that you can supercompensate.  That lower volume period will generally be as long as the number of days it took you to get in the hole, or you can just use the rule of 3rds described above.

That approach will work, however, it kinda sux for scheduling because you don't know what you're gonna be doing tomorrow or the next day or further on in the week.  It also sux if you're doing anything else during a workout or week that might interfere with your ability to monitor fatigue.  So what you can do is experiment and use enough intensity and volume each workout to know you'll be fairly close to fatiguing on a certain schedule.  The drop-offs don't have to be perfect and the schedules don't have to be perfect, as long as the general concepts hold up.   Take that little template I mentioned above:

Mon 5 x 1 @ 85%
Tues: 5 x 1 @ 90%
Wed: 5 x 1 @ 95%
Thurs: off
Fri: 5 x 1 @ 80% (very easy)
Sat: Off
Sun: Off

It can generally be assumed that after performing a given movement at an increasing intensity for 3 days straight that some level of fatigue will have accumulated in most people.  That makes the schedule viable for most, but others may need to adjust it as some will accumulate too much fatigue while some not enough.  In general it holds up though.

You can also base fatigue off of general accumulative nervous system stress.  Fatigue cycles can be over days, weeks, or even months.    You can monitor it thru hormone levels, heart rate variability (omega wave does this), and a ton of other things.  But the general principles are the same.  I think the weekly cycles are cool and easy to grasp for most people.  I'm pretty sure that's what Jay Schroeder does.  He goes 3 on 1 off, 3 on-2 off doing the same stuff every day.  

It is amazing what the body can tolerate/adapt to given 2 consecutive days mostly off at the end of a week/cycle.  

There are some posts/articles by Glenn Pendlay over on the DB forum that talk about how he does this with his o-lifters using monthly cycles.  Basically 5 x 5  three x per week for 4-6 weeks followed by 3 x 3 once every 4th-th day for 4 weeks.

great post man.. I like the idea of performing an exercise, consecutively until drop off. I think I did that by feel during my second high freq experiment, come to think of it. I would just basically alternate squat/lunge or perform them each, for who knows how many days 2-5 etc, until a session was alot less powerful, then i'd rest for 1-2 days and I'd be flying.

I like the idea of measuring it definitively though, alot easier to "coach it" over the internet that way too. Most of the frequency stuff I've prescribed has been in person, which is very easy for me, knowing the athlete, to get a feel for how they are fatigue wise.




Quote
One more thing: I'm with you Andrew as far as monitoring intra-session drop-offs for power/speed work.  In my experience it was more trouble then it was worth.  Rather, I'd terminate a workout as soon as their as any drop-off at all, as once workout quality has declined the positive training effect is pretty well done too.

ya, definitely.


peace man