Author Topic: Another Mass Shooting in the US  (Read 14157 times)

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Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2015, 01:28:31 pm »
0
And when is "enough" going to be "enough"? Maybe when a very rich guy will accidentally be in a middle of a mass shooting and die, or a politician. Then it's going to be "enough"... MAYBE.

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2015, 01:32:30 pm »
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I just find it kind of hypocritical that people that have armed bodyguards around them 24/7 are telling everyone else that they're not allowed to have similar protection in the form of a firearm.

LBSS

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2015, 01:47:12 pm »
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oh, for christ's sake. the CDC studies and seeks solutions to threat's the country's health. most of what they research are biological threats -- infectious and chronic diseases. that is true. but they produce and fund research and guidelines and other resources on all kinds of health issues, like tobacco use and natural and manmade disaster preparedness.

they are the agency that should be studying the effect of guns from a HEALTH standpoint. why are we even arguing about this?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 01:48:44 pm by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2015, 01:47:31 pm »
-1
How is that hypocritical? Not everybody has the same function in a state - some people need that because they have important roles for their country - and they need that kind of protection. That's all. The government won't come in and kill you with a politician with armed guards, you can relax.

LBSS

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2015, 01:48:55 pm »
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I just find it kind of hypocritical that people that have armed bodyguards around them 24/7 are telling everyone else that they're not allowed to have similar protection in the form of a firearm.

what?

also, if you have a gun, you are more than twice as likely to kill someone by accident as kill someone justifiably, according to the FBI. the ratio of murders, suicides, and accidental killings to justifiable killings is more than 30-to-1. again, according to the fbi.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 01:53:51 pm by LBSS »
Muscles are nonsensical they have nothing to do with this bullshit.

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handstand + backflip + flag

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2015, 01:52:00 pm »
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oh, for christ's sake. the CDC studies and seeks solutions to threat's the country's health. most of what they research are biological threats -- infectious and chronic diseases. that is true. but they produce and fund research and guidelines and other resources on all kinds of health issues, like tobacco use and natural and manmade disaster preparedness.

they are the agency that should be studying the effect of guns from a HEALTH standpoint. why are we even arguing about this?

FBI already tracks that information. CDC is for biological/health threats. The work is being done, just by someone else.
What don't you understand?
What do you think should be investigated about guns from a health standpoint?

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2015, 01:54:17 pm »
+2
How is that hypocritical? Not everybody has the same function in a state - some people need that because they have important roles for their country - and they need that kind of protection. That's all. The government won't come in and kill you with a politician with armed guards, you can relax.

Some people disagree on this then.
My life is just as valuable to me as it is to someone that you deem more important. Difference of opinion, no?

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2015, 01:59:28 pm »
+2
Fact is that over 99% (and probably a few more decimal places) of firearms owners don't commit crime, let alone firearm-related crimes, why are you so keen on punishing everyone else?
 

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2015, 02:01:29 pm »
+1
How is that hypocritical? Not everybody has the same function in a state - some people need that because they have important roles for their country - and they need that kind of protection. That's all. The government won't come in and kill you with a politician with armed guards, you can relax.

Some people disagree on this then.
My life is just as valuable to me as it is to someone that you deem more important. Difference of opinion, no?

No, your life in an absolute way is just as important. Your life in a practical way, in terms of how your life affects millions of people if you lose it, is at a different level of importance.

I understand what you're saying - you're judging this from a deontological/categorical moral perspective, where I see it more as a consequential matter. But the fact is that that particular person that is being defended by armed guards is much more likely to be a target of an attack, constructed on purpose on him/her, than at you, because you don't really exist (from an "importance" standpoint, like some terrorist group tracking and planning to murder you etc that a governmental person would be exposed to).

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2015, 02:04:00 pm »
+1
How is that hypocritical? Not everybody has the same function in a state - some people need that because they have important roles for their country - and they need that kind of protection. That's all. The government won't come in and kill you with a politician with armed guards, you can relax.

Some people disagree on this then.
My life is just as valuable to me as it is to someone that you deem more important. Difference of opinion, no?

No, your life in an absolute way is just as important. Your life in a practical way, in terms of how your life affects millions of people if you lose it, is at a different level of importance.

I understand what you're saying - you're judging this from a deontological/categorical moral perspective, where I see it more as a consequential matter. But the fact is that that particular person that is being defended by armed guards is much more likely to be a target of an attack, constructed on purpose on him/her, than at you, because you don't really exist (from an "importance" standpoint, like some terrorist group tracking and planning to murder you etc that a governmental person would be exposed to).

And yet many constructed attacks are at points of weakness, eg gun-free zones.
How is taking away law-abiding citizens firearms going to prevent these sorts of locations from being targeted?

Also, and we probably disagree on this, I don't think it appropriate for others to determine what level of security I should be allowed to provide myself with.

Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2015, 02:13:28 pm »
0
Because in reality it doesn't pan out - these guns create all sorts of psychological effects that go beyond the idea of "I just got a gun to defend myself". And "to defend myself" against whom? Other people with guns. Where do all these guns come from?

That's like giving every country in the world nuclear weapons to "even the field" in the world. The USA has nuclear weapons. Why wouldn't Iran have one? For all we know, the USA is the only country in the world that actually launched not one, but TWO and killed hundreds of thousands of people, and now they don't want anybody else to have one, the USA suddenly became a moral entity. Now I obviously don't want any more nuclear weapons, just as much as I don't want guns.

Having guns won't do any good either. Imagine a situation at a movie theater where some guy starts shooting. If everybody would have guns to "defend themselves", everybody would start shooting and then it would be a tremendous confusion of "who is the bad guy, really?".

You credit people with way too much wisdom and reason and control over such situations. You have trained police officers which act as thugs and do stupid shit, imagine the regular guy with no training what he'll do. You're not in movies. You don't aim, point and shoot and "bam" the bad guy is down and you're the hero. You're talking about regular people shooting each other, lol.

Not to mention high capacity clips - why do you need clips with tens of bullets unless you wanna mass murder people? And so on and so forth.

And no, your max level of security should be decided at a country-wide level - the same security for everybody, except for those people that are at a higher risk due to the job they do for their country - so - government officials. That are chosen by the people through a democratic process, by the way. They theoretically represent you.

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2015, 02:24:03 pm »
+1
Quote
Because in reality it doesn't pan out - these guns create all sorts of psychological effects that go beyond the idea of "I just got a gun to defend myself". And "to defend myself" against whom? Other people with guns. Where do all these guns come from?
Ok, then how come well over 99% of firearms owners never commit gun-related rimes?


Quote
That's like giving every country in the world nuclear weapons to "even the field" in the world. The USA has nuclear weapons. Why wouldn't Iran have one? For all we know, the USA is the only country in the world that actually launched not one, but TWO and killed hundreds of thousands of people, and now they don't want anybody else to have one, the USA suddenly became a moral entity. Now I obviously don't want any more nuclear weapons, just as much as I don't want guns.
Regarding Japan, a lot of debate went in to that decision, it wasn't just because they could. Based on the analyses that they did, dropping the bombs actually saved more lives (American and Japanese), and they also dropped leaflets days in advance indicating that those cities had been targeted for bombing.

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Having guns won't do any good either. Imagine a situation at a movie theater where some guy starts shooting. If everybody would have guns to "defend themselves", everybody would start shooting and then it would be a tremendous confusion of "who is the bad guy, really?".
I suppose that's one scenario, but most people are pretty reluctant to start shooting at people. One incident in a mall shooting a citizen chose to not take the shot because he wasn't confident at the distance of he was, and iirc there were other people that he could've hit, so he chose to not shoot.

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You credit people with way too much wisdom and reason and control over such situations. You have trained police officers which act as thugs and do stupid shit, imagine the regular guy with no training what he'll do. You're not in movies. You don't aim, point and shoot and "bam" the bad guy is down and you're the hero. You're talking about regular people shooting each other, lol.
I don't agree with the many instances of criminality that the police get away with, and I don't think this is a fair comparison. Police has essentially have free-range when it comes to shooting incidents, not so for your average citizen who will be personally held accountable.

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Not to mention high capacity clips - why do you need clips with tens of bullets unless you wanna mass murder people? And so on and so forth.
A survey from over 15000 LEOs think different, point number 1.
http://www.policeone.com/Gun-Legislation-Law-Enforcement/articles/6183787-PoliceOnes-Gun-Control-Survey-11-key-lessons-from-officers-perspectives/


Quote
And no, your max level of security should be decided at a country-wide level - the same security for everybody, except for those people that are at a higher risk due to the job they do for their country - so - government officials. That are chosen by the people through a democratic process, by the way. They theoretically represent you.
Again, we disagree here. That they are elected to office doesn't change the level of security that they are entitled to. There are no laws that say this.


Raptor

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2015, 02:25:21 pm »
0
By the way - let me ask you a different question - let's suppose a group of Muslims wearing niqabs are on a street with you and your kid and they have AK-47s with them and wear islamic slogans written on their shirts. Would you be safe then? Would you say "hey, look, they're just exercising their second amendment rights to wear guns and they also have free speech so they can wear and say anything, it's their constitutional right!".

Or would you be like "OK... let me... take my kid on a different street...". What if that were to happen in a supermarket? Or in a place with a ton of people? Or in a park? Would you like to live in that kind of world? Or are your rights as a white American MORE important than a Muslim American or a black American (I suppose you're white)?

And I want you to be honest. Do you think this is a good idea of "safety"? What if there's people with miniguns or grenade launchers, that's how they feel safe and it's not your place, like you said above, to set a standard for others in terms of "determining what level of security I should be allowed to provide myself with".

You see how this stuff becomes really bad, really quickly? Especially when it's not in your favor? Would you like to live in that world? Would you see that world "safer" than a gun-free world?

PS. I think in the wild-wild-West, the Sheriff of the town would take the guns away from those visiting and would return them as the visitors left. Tell me if I'm right.

mattyg35

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2015, 02:33:35 pm »
0
By the way - let me ask you a different question - let's suppose a group of Muslims wearing niqabs are on a street with you and your kid and they have AK-47s with them and wear islamic slogans written on their shirts. Would you be safe then? Would you say "hey, look, they're just exercising their second amendment rights to wear guns and they also have free speech so they can wear and say anything, it's their constitutional right!".
That would be their right.

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Or would you be like "OK... let me... take my kid on a different street...". What if that were to happen in a supermarket? Or in a place with a ton of people? Or in a park? Would you like to live in that kind of world? Or are your rights as a white American MORE important than a Muslim American or a black American (I suppose you're white)?
Not sure why you assume I'm white. That's rather rude, and I think you're operating with a certain set of biases that you should probably address so you can better know that you're approaching this from an objective point of view.

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And I want you to be honest. Do you think this is a good idea of "safety"? What if there's people with miniguns or grenade launchers, that's how they feel safe and it's not your place, like you said above, to set a standard for others in terms of "determining what level of security I should be allowed to provide myself with".
Do you have examples of this happening? It sounds like your imagination is running a bit wild.

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You see how this stuff becomes really bad, really quickly? Especially when it's not in your favor? Would you like to live in that world? Would you see that world "safer" than a gun-free world?
Fact is that the world isn't free of guns or free of people that have no quarrels about using them indiscriminately.
Until your utopia exists, I'll take my chances of being armed and not needing it, than not being armed and needing it.

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PS. I think in the wild-wild-West, the Sheriff of the town would take the guns away from those visiting and would return them as the visitors left. Tell me if I'm right.
I don't know much about the history of the wild west, but I do recall reading that it has been exaggerated, eg the number of shoot outs and how "wild" it actually was.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 02:48:44 pm by mattyg35 »

adarqui

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Re: Another Mass Shooting in the US
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2015, 02:36:28 pm »
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FBI now investigating this shooting as an act of terrorism. Also mentioned a security guard at a movie theatre on Dec 1 notified the police of a suspicious arabic man in that area taking photos of a movie theatre.

"Female San Bernardino attacker Tashfeen Malik pledged her allegiance to Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdad on Facebook as she carried out a deadly shooting spree with her husband, according to CNN."