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OTHER STUFF => Politics, News, & SHeeT! => Topic started by: LBSS on November 09, 2016, 12:07:36 am

Title: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 09, 2016, 12:07:36 am
i can't really think straight right now, so i'm just going to post this quote from paul krugman.

Quote
We still don’t know who will win the electoral college, although as I write this it looks — incredibly, horribly — as if the odds now favor Donald J. Trump. What we do know is that people like me, and probably like most readers of The New York Times, truly didn’t understand the country we live in. We thought that our fellow citizens would not, in the end, vote for a candidate so manifestly unqualified for high office, so temperamentally unsound, so scary yet ludicrous.

We thought that the nation, while far from having transcended racial prejudice and misogyny, had become vastly more open and tolerant over time.

We thought that the great majority of Americans valued democratic norms and the rule of law.

It turns out that we were wrong. There turn out to be a huge number of people — white people, living mainly in rural areas — who don’t share at all our idea of what America is about. For them, it is about blood and soil, about traditional patriarchy and racial hierarchy. And there were many other people who might not share those anti-democratic values, but who nonetheless were willing to vote for anyone bearing the Republican label.

I don’t know how we go forward from here. Is America a failed state and society? It looks truly possible. I guess we have to pick ourselves up and try to find a way forward, but this has been a night of terrible revelations, and I don’t think it’s self-indulgent to feel quite a lot of despair.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Kingfish on November 09, 2016, 12:13:54 am
it could be as simple as bernie sanders taking hillary's votes away.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 09, 2016, 01:34:29 am
Or maybe people voted for a change based on economic issues- free trade benefiting large multinational companies at the expense of workers, which has led to entire regions in developed nations hollowed out with entrenched unemployment and increasing poverty and social alienation. It's a race-to-the-bottom dynamic that sees the ‘market’ divorced from society. This is an ‘absolute advantage’ process, where capital shifts productive activity around the globe chasing low wages, poor workplace and environmental protections, and tax advantages.

Advanced nations were not built on free trade. They developed into rich nations through the use of industrial protection and government controls and supports.

Ha-Joon Chang (2007) rejects the ‘free market’ explanation for Korean development.

He writes (2007: xx-xxi):

"This neo-liberal establishment would have us believe that, during its miracle years between the 1960s and the 1980s, Korea pursued a neo-liberal economic development strategy …

The reality, however, was very different indeed. What Korea actually did during these decades was to nurture certain new industries, selected by the government in consultation with the private sector, through tariff protection, subsidies and other forms of government support (e.g., overseas marketing information services provided by the state export agency) until they ‘grew up’ enough to withstand international competition. The government owned all the banks, so it could direct the life blood of business—credit …

The Korean government also had absolute control over scarce foreign ex- change (violation of foreign exchange controls could be punished with the death penalty). When combined with a carefully designed list of priorities in the use of foreign exchange, it ensured that hard-earned foreign currencies were used for importing vital machinery and industrial inputs. The Korean government heavily controlled foreign investment as well, welcoming it with open arms in certain sectors while shutting it out completely in others, according to the evolving national development plan …

The popular impression of Korea as a free-trade economy was created by its export success. But export success does not require free trade, as Japan and China have also shown. Korean exports in the earlier period – things like simple garments and cheap electronics—were all means to earn the hard currencies needed to pay for the advanced technologies and expensive machines that were necessary for the new, more difficult industries, which were protected through tariffs and subsidies. At the same time, tariff protection and subsidies were not there to shield industries from international competition forever, but to give them the time to absorb new technologies and establish new organizational capabilities until they could compete in the world market.

The Korean economic miracle was the result of a clever and pragmatic mixture of market incentives and state direction".

[Reference: Chang, H-J (2007) The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism, London, Bloomsbury Press.]

I don't know if Trump will do anything. But if your a pissed off citizen who has seen your living standards and job opportunities decline and the only option is between Clinton (who will continue business as usual) or Trump you're probably inclined to give Clinton the bird and vote Trump. The democrats would've won if they didn't have Clinton. The Democrats actually have some fairly progressive policy, which would benefit a lot of workers, but they failed to sell it. Instead their campaign was all about trying to demonize Trump as the loose cannon, which plays right into the ears of the hardcore Trump supporters and any swinging voters sick of the negativity and business as usual approach.

Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 09, 2016, 01:43:48 am
it could be as simple as bernie sanders taking hillary's votes away.

nah, he campaigned for her at the end. and the flaws of hers that he hammered in the primary are mostly real, she bears a lot of responsibility for them. not all, the coverage of her was atrocious even in the liberal media. giving equal weight to the emails and to trump's manifold scandals is a travesty. it's as simple as this: tens of millions of white americans, our very own mattyg among them, like for society to be racist, patriarchal, and full of anger at the embrace of people different from them as equals. afraid of losing their place at the top of the racial hierarchy, despite the fact that they have manifestly not lost it. "all lives matter" people. people who fear and mistrust immigrants and anyone who doesn't speak english as a first language. people who

i don't buy the economic argument. i'm angry about inequality, about the way that the increasing concentration of capital in the financial and tech sectors has led to a situation where the only jobs many people can get are low-paying, unprotected, service jobs. i'm angry that no one on wall street really paid for the havoc they wreaked in 2007-2008. that for hundreds of thousands of people, if not more, the best they can do is file for permanent disability.

but i take it as a default that people who are different from me are no less than i am, that they deserve respect and the benefit of the doubt, that they deserve to have just as much power as i have. i recognize that a world where my whiteness, maleness, straightness, cisgenderedness do not gift me unearned power is a better world not just for people who are nonwhite, not male, not straight, not cisgendered BUT ALSO FOR ME.

but millions of people do not agree. they prefer their vicious, small-minded, angry worldview to one of love and openness. god help us.

i take it as an article of faith that achieving equality and economic prosperity is impossible without a strong government. that because many people are hateful and oppressive, the government must step in to protect those the powerful would oppress. that because the very rich are rapacious and greedy, the government must step in to enforce limits on capital and ensure that everyone has access to the services and goods that they need to live a decent life.

i don't know what else to say.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 09, 2016, 02:02:58 am
it ain't about free trade, mutumbo. a lot of people in trump's base don't even know how many states there are, let alone what nafta is or how it actually affected them. they know they their jobs aren't as good as they used to be, or as their parents' jobs were, but not why.

Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 09, 2016, 02:04:01 am
Or maybe people voted for a change based on economic issues- free trade benefiting large multinational companies at the expense of workers, which has led to entire regions in developed nations hollowed out with entrenched unemployment and increasing poverty and social alienation. It's a race-to-the-bottom dynamic that sees the ‘market’ divorced from society. This is an ‘absolute advantage’ process, where capital shifts productive activity around the globe chasing low wages, poor workplace and environmental protections, and tax advantages.

Advanced nations were not built on free trade. They developed into rich nations through the use of industrial protection and government controls and supports.

Ha-Joon Chang (2007) rejects the ‘free market’ explanation for Korean development.

He writes (2007: xx-xxi):

"This neo-liberal establishment would have us believe that, during its miracle years between the 1960s and the 1980s, Korea pursued a neo-liberal economic development strategy …

The reality, however, was very different indeed. What Korea actually did during these decades was to nurture certain new industries, selected by the government in consultation with the private sector, through tariff protection, subsidies and other forms of government support (e.g., overseas marketing information services provided by the state export agency) until they ‘grew up’ enough to withstand international competition. The government owned all the banks, so it could direct the life blood of business—credit …

The Korean government also had absolute control over scarce foreign ex- change (violation of foreign exchange controls could be punished with the death penalty). When combined with a carefully designed list of priorities in the use of foreign exchange, it ensured that hard-earned foreign currencies were used for importing vital machinery and industrial inputs. The Korean government heavily controlled foreign investment as well, welcoming it with open arms in certain sectors while shutting it out completely in others, according to the evolving national development plan …

The popular impression of Korea as a free-trade economy was created by its export success. But export success does not require free trade, as Japan and China have also shown. Korean exports in the earlier period – things like simple garments and cheap electronics—were all means to earn the hard currencies needed to pay for the advanced technologies and expensive machines that were necessary for the new, more difficult industries, which were protected through tariffs and subsidies. At the same time, tariff protection and subsidies were not there to shield industries from international competition forever, but to give them the time to absorb new technologies and establish new organizational capabilities until they could compete in the world market.

The Korean economic miracle was the result of a clever and pragmatic mixture of market incentives and state direction".

[Reference: Chang, H-J (2007) The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret History of Capitalism, London, Bloomsbury Press.]

I don't know if Trump will do anything. But if your a pissed off citizen who has seen your living standards and job opportunities decline and the only option is between Clinton (who will continue business as usual) or Trump you're probably inclined to give Clinton the bird and vote Trump. The democrats would've won if they didn't have Clinton. The Democrats actually have some fairly progressive policy, which would benefit a lot of workers, but they failed to sell it. Instead their campaign was all about trying to demonize Trump as the loose cannon, which plays right into the ears of the hardcore Trump supporters and any swinging voters sick of the negativity and business as usual approach.

all that sounds great.. but, these same voters, voted for someone who ships jobs overseas, makes products overseas, fails to pay his labor, scams the hell out of people, rails against free trade but then says he's for free trade, has numerous bankruptcy's, praises foreign dictators, cut taxes on the rich, etc..

IMHO, it really comes down to his underhanded (well not so underhanded) racism and anti-immigration policies.

obviously economic issues are important to these voters, but I think they are voting for his personality and anti-inclusion policies more than his economic/trade policies.. i think basing it on his economic policies (which don't even really exist) are giving these voters way too much credit.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 09, 2016, 06:31:03 am
it ain't about free trade, mutumbo. a lot of people in trump's base don't even know how many states there are, let alone what nafta is or how it actually affected them. they know they their jobs aren't as good as they used to be, or as their parents' jobs were, but not why.

I guess that's the irony. The Democrats policies would actually help a lot of these people a lot more than the Republicans, yet they chose to vote against their own interests. Maybe they viewed Trump as not being a real Republican since so much of the media/wall street can't stand him. Or maybe I just can't believe that so many people would be as small minded to believe that building a wall and persecuting foreigners (unless they are European like Trump's wife) would somehow improve their lives. I've never been to America so I don't know.

I appreciate the point that society is more important than the economy though. I make an issue with the economy as it's not a healthy one. When you have wealth inequality in the USA at levels not seen since the Great Depression you know something is wrong. If people aren't financially literate (most people aren't) they will look for any explanation to justify why things aren't the same anymore- Disappointingly instead of looking at large multinationals I guess they blame migrants and minorities.

(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/038/748/4c1.jpg)
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/083/563/13d.jpg)
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Kingfish on November 09, 2016, 07:31:36 am
Nov 9, 2016 | 4:30am PST
year to date 401K at +5.22%

my body is ready.  :huh:
Title: Re: despair
Post by: seifullaah73 on November 09, 2016, 08:08:48 am
agree 100% with LBSS first post. Not about the electoral college as that is confusing no matter how many times i learn about it.
But the information about trump's business mind would somehow be the best character to be the president of a country, he has no experience of working in a political sector that I know about, someone correct me if im wrong, but it seems the best talker with a lot of money and fame is all that is required to become president.

I watched his victory speech, he didn't know what to say except for the same stuff he's been saying during his campaign and thank a bunch of people  :uhhhfacepalm:.

He is definitely not qualified to be a leader and also a could not disagree more about a state which has become tolerant to race, religion, orientation and ethinicity but voting for this guy shows completely opposite, their inner feelings have comeout through their voting of trump who has outwardly expressed his feeling towards mexicans, women, muslims.

Also his opinion about economy only limited to his business knowledge, which is completely different when dealing with the economy of a country, especially what he said during his speech about the same way he noticed problems with the market he sees same with thing with economy of country lol.

But this has shown the true stance of the american's who voted for him and are not as tolerant as they make out to be.

What can be done now? only hope for the best outcome of whatever farfetched strategies he has in mind,
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 09, 2016, 08:23:28 am
he is also demonstrated again and again that he is a TERRIBLE businessman. so even if that were a good qualification for president, and it isn't, he wouldn't have it.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: seifullaah73 on November 09, 2016, 08:35:35 am
/\ lol True, just comes on a tv show called apprentice i think it was called and gained fame that way. I think that he more of a shrew clever businessman in making him look like a good businessman.

I also have a feeling that prob the people's feeling towards hilary clinton also played its part in the election there are poeple who in some twisted/unamerican way found trump to be appealing and as a good candidate for president then you also have people who didn't like hilary clinton/ democtratic party she represented because of maybe of not enough was achieved or watever.

Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 11, 2016, 07:26:22 am
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: maxent on November 11, 2016, 08:11:37 am
Im only now getting familiarised with this whole mess but it seems more apt to target DNC reform. The good intentions of the democrats are no consolation that they weren't good enough at politics to win the election when the stakes were so high (keeping trump out). It's inexcusable to push for a slightly better world when you risked and it turns out achieved a far worse one.

Quote
Donna Brazile, the interim leader of the Democratic National Committee, was giving what one attendee described as “a rip-roaring speech” to about 150 employees, about the need to have hope for wins going forward, when a staffer identified only as Zach stood up with a question.
“Why should we trust you as chair to lead us through this?” he asked, according to two people in the room. “You backed a flawed candidate, and your friend [former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz] plotted through this to support your own gain and yourself.”
Some DNC staffers started to boo and some told him to sit down. Brazile began to answer, but Zach had more to say.
“You are part of the problem,” he continued, blaming Brazile for clearing the path for Trump’s victory by siding with Clinton early on. “You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy.”
Zach gathered his things and began to walk out. When Brazile called after him, asking where he was going, he told her to go outside and “tell people there” why she should be leading the party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donna-brazile-democratic-national-committee_us_5824cb95e4b0ddd4fe7954e8?f019736x1ofscerk9

and this reddit comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5cah7s/dnc_staffer_screams_at_donna_brazile_for_helping/d9veaz7/) in response to the above article was amazing.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 11, 2016, 10:19:26 am
Im only now getting familiarised with this whole mess but it seems more apt to target DNC reform. The good intentions of the democrats are no consolation that they weren't good enough at politics to win the election when the stakes were so high (keeping trump out). It's inexcusable to push for a slightly better world when you risked and it turns out achieved a far worse one.

Quote
Donna Brazile, the interim leader of the Democratic National Committee, was giving what one attendee described as “a rip-roaring speech” to about 150 employees, about the need to have hope for wins going forward, when a staffer identified only as Zach stood up with a question.
“Why should we trust you as chair to lead us through this?” he asked, according to two people in the room. “You backed a flawed candidate, and your friend [former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz] plotted through this to support your own gain and yourself.”
Some DNC staffers started to boo and some told him to sit down. Brazile began to answer, but Zach had more to say.
“You are part of the problem,” he continued, blaming Brazile for clearing the path for Trump’s victory by siding with Clinton early on. “You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change. You and your friends let this happen, which is going to cut 40 years off my life expectancy.”
Zach gathered his things and began to walk out. When Brazile called after him, asking where he was going, he told her to go outside and “tell people there” why she should be leading the party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donna-brazile-democratic-national-committee_us_5824cb95e4b0ddd4fe7954e8?f019736x1ofscerk9

and this reddit comment (https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/5cah7s/dnc_staffer_screams_at_donna_brazile_for_helping/d9veaz7/) in response to the above article was amazing.

This is just my observation from Australia. The Labor Party (Democrat version for Australia) has completely lost their roots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Labor_Party

Labor is a party who formerly represented the interests of workers and who are now dominated by career politicians who have embraced neoliberalism sine the 1980's. Policy wise they are pretty much chalk and cheese with the Liberal Party (ironically called the Liberal party despite being a conservative party akin to the Republicans). Both parties essentially believe that full employment occurs when the economy is at 5% unemployment and chose inflation over employment. If unemployment was ever to fall much below 5 per cent, the Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) would quickly increase interest rates to push unemployment back up towards 5 per cent as the unemployed are used as the human ammunition that the RBA keeps ready to deploy against the inflation bogy. Yet at the same time both major parties presides over a system that denies dignity to unemployed workers who struggle to survive on a government pittance that is designed to punish and shame.Of course the Labor Party never really fights much for the minimum wage to be increased either because that would be 'bad for business'. So with the economy they are exactly the same as the Liberals.They also run a population ponzi scheme, just as the Liberals do and howl down anybody who dares to question it as being xenophobic or racist. How dare people question foreign investment or prevent the Chinese from buying up our ports and essential services!!!

If you were a casual observer of Australian politics you would think that the most pressing issues for Labor were same sex marriage, climate change and refugees. All of these are issues, but they are not  the everyday concerns of Australians. The everyday issues like the privatisation of public assets, chipping away of Medicare services, longer and longer hospital queues, attacks on unemployment benefits, poorly resourced and overcrowded public schools, and a tertiary education system that is now failing to transition people from study into employment (whilst also setting you back tens of thousands of dollars in debt- my current HELP debt is 43.5k!)  Then there’s the astronomical price of housing and council rates, electricity, water bills etc. that are increasing a lot faster than wages!!! Yet the Labor Party doesn't give attention to any of these issues- they are too busy rambling on about 18C and plebiscites and other shit that doesn't affect people's daily lives as much as being able to sustain their standard of living.

Edit- Apart from my long rant my point is that if the Democrats in America are anywhere near as complicit in policies as the Australian Labor Party is than it's easy to see why people would swing against them or just not bother showing up to vote.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 11, 2016, 10:30:20 am
that's actually a pretty crazy quote:

"You and your friends will die of old age and I’m going to die from climate change"
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 13, 2016, 07:23:55 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqceHviNBC4

The tragedy will be when Trump fails to create enough jobs especially in the rust belt states. Trump wants to spend huge amounts of money building infrastructure, but he also wants to bring in tax cuts. As for the free trade agreements I can see him saying he can't change them and scapegoating past administrations. Yet deep down Republicans don't like creating budget deficits so the way they will save money is buy cutting Government services and also trying to reduce health and welfare expenses. I hope I'm wrong, but this is the path I see Trump taking for the next 4 years.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 13, 2016, 11:16:10 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqceHviNBC4

The tragedy will be when Trump fails to create enough jobs especially in the rust belt states. Trump wants to spend huge amounts of money building infrastructure, but he also wants to bring in tax cuts. As for the free trade agreements I can see him saying he can't change them and scapegoating past administrations. Yet deep down Republicans don't like creating budget deficits so the way they will save money is buy cutting Government services and also trying to reduce health and welfare expenses. I hope I'm wrong, but this is the path I see Trump taking for the next 4 years.

nice little video.

Trump has the "will of the people" (from the GOP) on his side.. so, i'd like to see him at least defy the GOP establishment. That could be fun to watch.

Trump's cabinet position "predictions" already say alot about where he's leaning though.. who knows, maybe the media is getting it all wrong again :D
Title: Re: despair
Post by: John Stamos on November 13, 2016, 09:41:22 pm
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.

What about the awful shit your party is already doing?  Assaulting, asking for the death of whites, calling for Melanias rape, rioting etc.  Trump hasn't done anything yet and everyone is already freaking the fuck out.  Grow up, the world isn't going to end, if you want to keep spouting racial bullshit then ask yourself why she lost the election?  From my account a 69 year old white criminal couldn't pull in Obamas black voters.  Maybe it's because she called them super predators, shunned Bill's potential black love child, CP time..oh yeah also the Democrats don't do shit for blacks.  Also, the gay community that people keep mentioning,  hillary doesn't support gays and never has.  She claims she does but we learned from the emails that's false.  Trump has been a supporter of the guy community.  The triggered kids and Soros paid rioters need a fucking reality check.  FFS these people seriously need play doh, dogs, coloring books and stuffed animals for this?  Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 01:16:14 am
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.

What about the awful shit your party is already doing?  Assaulting, asking for the death of whites, calling for Melanias rape, rioting etc.  Trump hasn't done anything yet and everyone is already freaking the fuck out.  Grow up, the world isn't going to end, if you want to keep spouting racial bullshit then ask yourself why she lost the election?  From my account a 69 year old white criminal couldn't pull in Obamas black voters.  Maybe it's because she called them super predators, shunned Bill's potential black love child, CP time..oh yeah also the Democrats don't do shit for blacks.  Also, the gay community that people keep mentioning,  hillary doesn't support gays and never has.  She claims she does but we learned from the emails that's false.  Trump has been a supporter of the guy community.  The triggered kids and Soros paid rioters need a fucking reality check.  FFS these people seriously need play doh, dogs, coloring books and stuffed animals for this?  Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

i won't argue with you because your reaction is just as emotional as mine. all i will do is try to offer an alternative story, in hopes that you will begin to see why people like me are so angry and afraid.

here goes: trump rose to power by inflaming racial fear and hatred. now he has appointed steve bannon as his chief policy adviser. steve bannon is a proudly vicious racist and misogynist, so i hope you can understand why someone would take that as a sign that trump intends to follow up on all of the hateful garbage he spewed during the campaign -- mexican immigrants are rapists, we shouldn't allow any muslims into the country, and so on. hate crimes and harassment of minorities and women have risen. you get your news from different sources than i do, so it's possible you're not aware of that, but it isn't an abstraction for me: i have nonwhite and women friends who have been harassed since the election in ways they never were before. friends who are teachers in schools where white kids have sung racist songs on the school bus in the presence of black and latino classmates. the hatred and racism and sexism of trump's rhetoric has a real effect on people's lives, if you will listen to them. i was hanging out yesterday with a muslim friend whose parents live in dallas. she is legitimately worried for their safety. people of color, who already had more cause to be afraid in the US than white people, are tenser than ever today.

hillary used racist language and supported racist policies in the past but she made an actual effort during this election to reach out to the black lives matter movement. she was antigay, and might still be, but she supported the democratic party's platform to ensure marriage equality. trump himself may be fine with gay people but his vice president has advocated for conversion therapy. hillary's and the democrats' campaign sucked, i won't deny that they failed to offer a vision as powerful as trump's or to acknowledge the real pain that much of white america has suffered. and you're right: the democrats have not delivered as well as they could for minorities or poor people. but her language during the campaign was inclusive and free from hate. and the democrats' platform has a lot more to offer to the poor and middle class white people who came out for trump than the GOP's platform does, whether they know it or not. don't forget that a lot of what obama tried to do in office was blocked, constantly, by the republican majorities in the house and senate. that was a deliberate strategy to delegitimize his president and the effectiveness of government in general, as mitch mcconnell himself said, and it worked.

the GOP's policies will fail to deliver prosperity or even relief for the people who delivered them to power and all i can hope is that some of those people, perhaps including you, will see who is responsible for that failure.

no idea what a trigger kid is, george soros isn't paying anyone to riot (conspiracy theories don't have to make sense but this one is particularly confusing to me), and you lost me with the play doh and coloring books. the anger that you've seen reported on whatever news outlets you use is real anger from real people, people like you who worry about their job security and whether their kids are getting a good enough education and gossip and care about their families and fantasize about having sex with that hot person at the gym and like cheeseburgers, who are hurt and confused and afraid for themselves and their loved ones and for all of the people who are oppressed and whose oppression has already gotten a lot louder and a lot more acute.

muslims and latinos and black people are every bit as american as white people from the country and, more to the point, they're every bit as much human beings as white people from the country.  try to think, for a minute, what it must feel like to be a muslim american right now, with a president-elect who has called for a complete ban on your coreligionists from entering this country. what it must feel like to be a woman who has been sexually assaulted, with a president-elect who bragged about his own sexual assaults. a mexican-american, with a president-elect who's named the architect of the most racist law in modern american history to his transition team.

that trump and his supporters have cast those people's humanity aside is enraging and deeply sad. and it doesn't matter whether you personally are actively racist or sexist. supporting him means implicitly supporting the themes of his campaign and of his transition to office.

------------------

by the way, anyone who called for melania's rape can fuck off and die. that is misogynistic and hateful. but i suspect the number of people who are angry about trump's victory AND called for melania to be raped is vanishingly small. no one i know would say that even as a joke.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 01:32:33 am
or, to put it more succinctly:

(https://fb-s-a-a.akamaihd.net/h-ak-xla1/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/15037065_1882621021967325_3910373131301625963_n.jpg?oh=1927840ad93e0db6761bf3fc93ad60ab&oe=5891743D&__gda__=1489807256_8a0c8e1cb04ba45c65007334e2c0ab1f)

and here's another alternative story for you: https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/posts/1194834100555506
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 02:45:03 am
https://medium.com/@jessicashortall/voted-for-trump-i-have-only-one-plea-7d5994c7a3d1#.nok0dyox0

Quote
To my friends (yes, friends) who voted for Trump: You say you voted for Trump for reasons entirely absent from hatred, racism, and misogyny. You are sick of being called a racist, a misanthrope, a sexist, a xenophobe.

So let’s start with this premise: I believe you when you say you don’t hold any of these things in your heart. I believe you when you say that these things are not why you voted for him. I BELIEVE YOU.

But/and: he and his surrogates do say hateful things, and use coded language like “certain groups” and “certain neighborhoods.” Some people are hearing those things and are now feeling emboldened to do and say truly hateful, un-American things to minority groups. The stories are pouring in: echoes of Brexit as American women have their hijabs ripped from their heads, as women are grabbed and men laugh and say “we can grab you by the pussy now,” as brown schoolchildren come home in tears because some of their white classmates have told them they’ll have to leave the country, as Black people are called n*** in the street by white people who say, “God, it feels so good to say that in public again.”

I know that that is not YOU. Hear me say it. Stop thinking I am saying this at you, when I am just saying it to you. I believe you, so please believe me.

Your knee-jerk reaction is going to be to shout, “Those bad apples don’t represent me, so don’t lay their horrible behavior at my feet!” How many ways can I say this? I believe you. But/and this is still a real phenomenon. You and those apples supported, and support, the same man, even if for vastly different reasons. And those bad apples feel really, really good right now. The KKK is holding a celebratory parade. A PARADE. Those awful people — who I rush to say, again and again, are not you — feel vindicated and empowered by this election result.

So here’s where I stand: You voted for him, so I believe you have a responsibility to hold him to a truly American standard.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 04:39:21 am
http://jezebel.com/student-tells-muslim-schoolteacher-to-hang-herself-with-1788906340

Quote
“Quit overreacting, it’s just politics,” crow the Trump sympathizers (because truly, anyone who says that, even if they didn’t vote for him, is a Trump sympathizer). Tell that to the Muslim high school teacher who received a note from a student suggesting she hang herself with her headscarf.

“Your headscarf isn’t allowed anymore,” read a flag-adorned note addressed to Mairah Teli, a 24-year-old language arts teacher in Georgia. “Why don’t you tie it around your neck and hang yourself with it off of your neck instead of your head.” It was signed “America!”

bold part sound familiar?
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 14, 2016, 06:09:51 am
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.

What about the awful shit your party is already doing?  Assaulting, asking for the death of whites, calling for Melanias rape, rioting etc.  Trump hasn't done anything yet and everyone is already freaking the fuck out.  Grow up, the world isn't going to end, if you want to keep spouting racial bullshit then ask yourself why she lost the election?  From my account a 69 year old white criminal couldn't pull in Obamas black voters.  Maybe it's because she called them super predators, shunned Bill's potential black love child, CP time..oh yeah also the Democrats don't do shit for blacks.  Also, the gay community that people keep mentioning,  hillary doesn't support gays and never has.  She claims she does but we learned from the emails that's false.  Trump has been a supporter of the guy community.  The triggered kids and Soros paid rioters need a fucking reality check.  FFS these people seriously need play doh, dogs, coloring books and stuffed animals for this?  Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

Hit the nail on the head. Hillary failed to win the black vote. Trump didn't get their vote either they just decided not to participate because most people in the inner cities are disillusioned with politics and as far as they are concerned all politicians are as bad as each other. LBSS is correct though- Hillary was the lesser of two evils when it comes to policies that will help empower minorities and the poor/working class. Trump just ran a better campaign despite all the sexist/racist/politically incorrect jargon that he spewed out.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 06:30:08 am
hillary won black people by 80 points, something like 88-8. what the fuck are you all talking about. turnout was lower for all demographics. perhaps down slightly more for black people than for people overall, but the narrative that she didn't have black support is spurious.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: Mutumbo000 on November 14, 2016, 06:43:57 am
 :uhhhfacepalm:
hillary won black people by 80 points, something like 88-8. what the fuck are you all talking about. turnout was lower for all demographics. perhaps down slightly more for black people than for people overall, but the narrative that she didn't have black support is spurious.

She obviously didn't get the turn out otherwise she would have won the election!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYLYgmPKJbM
Watch 4:30 to 5:05 and that sums up public opinion amongst a lot of blacks. They don't like Trump but they don't endorse Hillary either and that showed on the day.

Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 14, 2016, 07:57:43 am
nope, wrong.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 14, 2016, 09:06:08 am
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.

What about the awful shit your party is already doing?  Assaulting, asking for the death of whites, calling for Melanias rape, rioting etc.  Trump hasn't done anything yet and everyone is already freaking the fuck out.  Grow up, the world isn't going to end, if you want to keep spouting racial bullshit then ask yourself why she lost the election?  From my account a 69 year old white criminal couldn't pull in Obamas black voters.  Maybe it's because she called them super predators, shunned Bill's potential black love child, CP time..oh yeah also the Democrats don't do shit for blacks.  Also, the gay community that people keep mentioning,  hillary doesn't support gays and never has.  She claims she does but we learned from the emails that's false.  Trump has been a supporter of the guy community.  The triggered kids and Soros paid rioters need a fucking reality check.  FFS these people seriously need play doh, dogs, coloring books and stuffed animals for this?  Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

Hit the nail on the head. Hillary failed to win the black vote. Trump didn't get their vote either they just decided not to participate because most people in the inner cities are disillusioned with politics and as far as they are concerned all politicians are as bad as each other. LBSS is correct though- Hillary was the lesser of two evils when it comes to policies that will help empower minorities and the poor/working class. Trump just ran a better campaign despite all the sexist/racist/politically incorrect jargon that he spewed out.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/

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Among whites, Trump won an overwhelming share of those without a college degree; and among white college graduates – a group that many identified as key for a potential Clinton victory – Trump outperformed Clinton by a narrow 4-point margin.

Trump’s margin among whites without a college degree is the largest among any candidate in exit polls since 1980. Two-thirds (67%) of non-college whites backed Trump, compared with just 28% who supported Clinton, resulting in a 39-point advantage for Trump among this group. In 2012 and 2008, non-college whites also preferred the Republican over the Democratic candidate but by less one-sided margins (61%-36% and 58%-40%, respectively).

Correction: Hillary failed to win the white vote.

Hillary winning the black vote cannot really be questioned.. She was apparently ~7% down among black voters compared to Obama in 2012 (80 vs 87). The real story is the white vote.. There were lots of significant shifts between white men, white women, and young vs old voters that resulted in Trump winning the electoral college.

As for people staying home, it was more significant for democrats overall compared to republicans, can't pin it all on black voters:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/09/hillary-clintons-campaign-was-crippled-by-voters-who-stayed-home/

pc!
Title: Re: despair
Post by: maxent on November 14, 2016, 09:19:22 am
People are being awfully selective about analysing the results to fit their chosen narrative. You can't look at vote tallies out of context and say HRC lost b/c dems didn't turn up to vote (8-9mil of them). Or b/c whites whitelashed for Trump. Or non-whites didn't support HRC as expected. Yeah you can say that and it's factually true but that's bad analysis cos you're not looking at the votes of the swing states in particular. To illustrate the folly of this gambit - according to the popular vote HRC actually won. How does that help you? Same thing you're doing when you say dems didn't turnupforwhat. So please try to be more careful when you make these arguments. A better analysis would look at the rust belt and evaluate votes and turnouts there.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 14, 2016, 09:35:20 am
if any of y'all (non-americans included) want to do something to counteract the tidal wave of awful shit that is coming our way, but you're not quite sure what to do, giving money to organizations that are fighting misogyny and white supremacy is a place to start. here's a list of groups worthy of support: http://jezebel.com/a-list-of-pro-women-pro-immigrant-pro-earth-anti-big-1788752078.

What about the awful shit your party is already doing?  Assaulting, asking for the death of whites, calling for Melanias rape, rioting etc.  Trump hasn't done anything yet and everyone is already freaking the fuck out.  Grow up, the world isn't going to end, if you want to keep spouting racial bullshit then ask yourself why she lost the election?  From my account a 69 year old white criminal couldn't pull in Obamas black voters.  Maybe it's because she called them super predators, shunned Bill's potential black love child, CP time..oh yeah also the Democrats don't do shit for blacks.  Also, the gay community that people keep mentioning,  hillary doesn't support gays and never has.  She claims she does but we learned from the emails that's false.  Trump has been a supporter of the guy community.  The triggered kids and Soros paid rioters need a fucking reality check.  FFS these people seriously need play doh, dogs, coloring books and stuffed animals for this?  Pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

i won't argue with you because your reaction is just as emotional as mine. all i will do is try to offer an alternative story, in hopes that you will begin to see why people like me are so angry and afraid.

here goes: trump rose to power by inflaming racial fear and hatred. now he has appointed steve bannon as his chief policy adviser. steve bannon is a proudly vicious racist and misogynist, so i hope you can understand why someone would take that as a sign that trump intends to follow up on all of the hateful garbage he spewed during the campaign -- mexican immigrants are rapists, we shouldn't allow any muslims into the country, and so on. hate crimes and harassment of minorities and women have risen. you get your news from different sources than i do, so it's possible you're not aware of that, but it isn't an abstraction for me: i have nonwhite and women friends who have been harassed since the election in ways they never were before. friends who are teachers in schools where white kids have sung racist songs on the school bus in the presence of black and latino classmates. the hatred and racism and sexism of trump's rhetoric has a real effect on people's lives, if you will listen to them. i was hanging out yesterday with a muslim friend whose parents live in dallas. she is legitimately worried for their safety. people of color, who already had more cause to be afraid in the US than white people, are tenser than ever today.

hillary used racist language and supported racist policies in the past but she made an actual effort during this election to reach out to the black lives matter movement. she was antigay, and might still be, but she supported the democratic party's platform to ensure marriage equality. trump himself may be fine with gay people but his vice president has advocated for conversion therapy. hillary's and the democrats' campaign sucked, i won't deny that they failed to offer a vision as powerful as trump's or to acknowledge the real pain that much of white america has suffered. and you're right: the democrats have not delivered as well as they could for minorities or poor people. but her language during the campaign was inclusive and free from hate. and the democrats' platform has a lot more to offer to the poor and middle class white people who came out for trump than the GOP's platform does, whether they know it or not. don't forget that a lot of what obama tried to do in office was blocked, constantly, by the republican majorities in the house and senate. that was a deliberate strategy to delegitimize his president and the effectiveness of government in general, as mitch mcconnell himself said, and it worked.

the GOP's policies will fail to deliver prosperity or even relief for the people who delivered them to power and all i can hope is that some of those people, perhaps including you, will see who is responsible for that failure.

no idea what a trigger kid is, george soros isn't paying anyone to riot (conspiracy theories don't have to make sense but this one is particularly confusing to me), and you lost me with the play doh and coloring books. the anger that you've seen reported on whatever news outlets you use is real anger from real people, people like you who worry about their job security and whether their kids are getting a good enough education and gossip and care about their families and fantasize about having sex with that hot person at the gym and like cheeseburgers, who are hurt and confused and afraid for themselves and their loved ones and for all of the people who are oppressed and whose oppression has already gotten a lot louder and a lot more acute.

muslims and latinos and black people are every bit as american as white people from the country and, more to the point, they're every bit as much human beings as white people from the country.  try to think, for a minute, what it must feel like to be a muslim american right now, with a president-elect who has called for a complete ban on your coreligionists from entering this country. what it must feel like to be a woman who has been sexually assaulted, with a president-elect who bragged about his own sexual assaults. a mexican-american, with a president-elect who's named the architect of the most racist law in modern american history to his transition team.

that trump and his supporters have cast those people's humanity aside is enraging and deeply sad. and it doesn't matter whether you personally are actively racist or sexist. supporting him means implicitly supporting the themes of his campaign and of his transition to office.

------------------

Well said.

The "grow up the world isn't going to end" stuff is annoying. We've never seen a president like this in the history of our country. The fact that Trump ran such an unnecessarily divisive campaign is what has always scared me. Had he been a uniter, showed class & restraint, not stoked racism/misogyny/bigotry, & continued his anti-establishment/populist message, he would have absolutely destroyed Hillary Clinton AND he wouldn't have created such a divided country at the onset of his presidency. Obviously these divisions already existed, but not to the extent that people would be protesting in the streets every single day/night leading up to and perhaps after, his inauguration; and the exact same response had he lost - though, many of his supporters were spouting a bloody revolution.

So to tell people to relax.. is just beyond annoying. Non-white people, pro-women's-rights people, non-straight people, immigrants, people who worry about climate change, the rest of the world, are now living with a brand new fear. And that fear has just been amplified 10-fold due to the fact that Bannon has been named his Chief Strategist.

As for the anti-Trump people, what I do disagree with is the whole "#NotMyPresident" garbage. He's going to be our president.. Actively campaigning the electors of the EC to vote Hillary (that's actually revolution-worthy IMHO) & saying he's not our president is very dangerous. The anti-Trump crowd & Democrats need to figure out very quickly how to "play politics"; how to get people to vote 2 years from now in the mid-term election & then 4 years from now in the general. Their failure is now everyone's problem.



Quote
by the way, anyone who called for melania's rape can fuck off and die. that is misogynistic and hateful. but i suspect the number of people who are angry about trump's victory AND called for melania to be raped is vanishingly small. no one i know would say that even as a joke.

^^ this, every single word of it.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: maxent on November 14, 2016, 10:36:41 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rSDUsMwakI

enjoyed this one (mirror (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2ELyUFs--M))
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on November 22, 2016, 08:36:32 am
cross-posted from my FB because i'm just brooding over it:

I do not support the death penalty, and obviously telling a roomful of cheering people that the country is for whites alone is not on the same order as organizing industrial-scale mass murder. But after watching the video of that shitheel racist that's going around today, I have been thinking about Eichmann in Jerusalem all the same.

Here is the passage that is running through my head, Arendt's imagined speech to Eichmann as if she were the judge at his trial:

Quote
We are concerned here only with what you did, and not with the possible noncriminal nature of your inner life and of your motives or with the criminal potentialities of those around you. You told your story in terms of a hard-luck story, and, knowing the circumstances, we are, up to a point, willing to grant you that under more favorable circumstances it is highly unlikely that you would ever have come before us or before any other criminal court. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that it was nothing more than misfortune that made you a willing instrument in the organization of mass murder; there still remains the fact that you have carried out, and therefore actively supported, a policy of mass murder. For politics is not like the nursery; in politics obedience and Support are the same. And just as you supported and carried out a policy of not wanting to share the earth with the Jewish people and the people of a number of other nations - as though you and your superiors had any right to determine who should and who should not inhabit the world - we find that no one, that is, no member of the human race, can be expected to want to share the earth with you. This is the reason, and the only reason, you must hang.

emphasis added.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on November 22, 2016, 01:58:35 pm
(dropping the video in here, i imagine you are referring to this one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk

these people seem confused (or maybe i'm confused).. all of their nazi-germany rhetoric/symbols/language/gestures yet, proclaiming themselves as the purest of americans.. I really do not get it, one bit.

this really seems like a transformational point in american history ... these hate groups have been given a new strength, more credibility, a louder more accepted voice.

is it 2016? :o

i really worry about America's (& the world) future.... everything just "feels fucked" right now.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: seifullaah73 on November 22, 2016, 04:34:39 pm
wow, now that trump has won, other racist and supremacist groups are coming out in public and you see how much there are and look at the nazi salutes they are giving, rip america.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: LBSS on December 05, 2016, 01:07:16 am
and today, as an antidote to despair: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-lesson-from-standing-rock-organizing-and-resistance-can-win/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-lesson-from-standing-rock-organizing-and-resistance-can-win/).

had to stop reading this article halfway through to weep for a good five minutes, in gratitude and admiration for tokata iron eyes and her family and community.
Title: Re: despair
Post by: adarqui on December 05, 2016, 12:22:15 pm
and today, as an antidote to despair: https://www.thenation.com/article/the-lesson-from-standing-rock-organizing-and-resistance-can-win/ (https://www.thenation.com/article/the-lesson-from-standing-rock-organizing-and-resistance-can-win/).

had to stop reading this article halfway through to weep for a good five minutes, in gratitude and admiration for tokata iron eyes and her family and community.


Two Bears says, “things are getting worse. So the first people of this land have to teach this country how to live again. By going green, by going renewable, by using the blessings the creator has given us: the sun and the wind.

“We are going to start in Native country. And we’re going to show the rest of the country how to live.”   


dope.

We really need this "green revolution".. If we don't do it, the earth is eventually going to "fight back". I predict earth wins. :ninja: