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The gains are sticking around because you haven't lost strength.  You have lost  movement efficiency in the squat.   That's why it might take you 3 months to go from 250 to 275 and another three to go from 275 to 300, but after taking time off and going back down to 270 you can get back to 300 in a matter of weeks.  One thing you will notice is that the "increased strength" from going back to 300 from 270 won't have any carryover. That's because for most people squats have very little direct carryover to jumping (far less than bounding, depth jumps, sprints, etc).   The increase in the jump from squats is the side effect of squats - larger lower body muscles, stronger core muscular, etc. But that's the problem with your claim that maximal strength has a higher ceiling - as we get stronger we make more and more squat gains because of squat movement efficiency... These won't carry over.

I agree with everything you are saying and already knew it, except for the following:

- I have always had a direct carryover to my jumps from increased squat strength relative to bodyweight, even when I was a 1 foot jumper. Admittedly the carryover will have diminishing returns, and part of the reason is because after a certain point i'm just gaining a much higher proportion of squat specificity versus muscle strength thats used in jumping. but the single most important thing I have ever done is taken my squat from 1x bw to 2x bw.
- I think you're undermining the "high ceiling" of strength gains. Compare it to the gains from DJ's and stuff. Taking your squat from 1x bw to 2x bw makes a hell of a difference. Max strength is a more trainable quality than reactive strength, even ignoring that much of the gains may be from specificity in the squat. This is what I mean by it has a "high ceiling."

What's interesting is that you present yourself as a naturally reactive athlete (and I'm not here to tell you that you are not) but keep stating the carryover of maximal squat strength to your jumping ability.   Truly reactive athletes don't see returns on increasing their squat:bw ratio from jump.  They essentially begin at what you define as the end of their career.  Depending on their build and level of starting strength some will see gains from squat:bw ratios if they are very weak - but these are fleeting.   My max squat was a shaky above parallel 185lbs when I was in highschool - I was 5'11 170 and could dunk off 1 foot and rim out my attempts off two feet  and could run 11.2 in the 100m.  My jumping ability (svj,dlrvj,slrvj  was about 28'', 33', 35'') .   After getting in the weight room and getting to the point where I could nail 5x5x225lbs  ATG @ 5'11 183 I was able to run 10.6 and my jumping ability was ~ 30'',38'',36'.   Interestingly I tried deadlifting for the first time then and could do 405 on my first try...  Anyway, years later I built my squat to 500lbs @ 205lbs and achieved jumps of ~ 34'', 38, 34''.    My gains from squat:bw ratio essentially were maxed out by the time I could handle 225lbs... 

Sorry for the long digression but I think this reminds me of one very important coaching tip: Sometimes we have to train to our strength.  You might have good reactive and maximal strength expression in your jump.  Which is the point your making - essentially that you should focus on your weakness because it will give you the best bang for your buck...   This might be true for you.  But for those on the extremes it's important to recognize that while it seems counterintuitive focusing on your weak link is often the worst thing you can do.   We see this all the time in sprints.  You have an aspiring 400m runner with runner who has amazing top speed and mediocre speed endurance ( say 100/200/400  10.4/20.8/46.5 ) - the runner dies at the end of the race.   A well meaning coach immediately looks at the athlete and decides that the athlete has "enough" speed and needs to focus on speed endurance.   After getting far more speed endurance the athlete comes back and now has the ability to run 46.0 (but has splits of 10.6/21.3/46.0).   It's terrible coaching and it happens all the time.   Initially the athletes 400 time was "bad" relative to his 200m (a 20.8 200m predicts a 45.3) not it's "good" because a a 21.3 predict a 46.8.   I've gone through this cycle with coaches and it's really frustrating.   The coach should have done a little endurance work throughout the year but kept emphasis on speed - the athlete would have been better served getting their 100m and 200m down to 10.2 and 20.5 then neglecting their natural ability to gain speed endurance...

The same is true for jumps.  The really reactive guy - he needs to focus on reactive work.  Sure maximal strength training should probably take place but it should not be emphasized.  The really reactive guy is the one who needs the depth jumps!  His bang for the buck for reactive training is far greater than the other guy, in other words he is the best athlete he can be when he is squeezing out 95% of his reactive potential and 70% of his maximal strength potential.  Same thing with the other way around... get the non-reactive person as strong as possible.  Reactive work is his background training...  Sometimes we have to train our strength and just be conscious of our weakness.

This is a lot to take in at once, but one important thing i took away is that in the case of training our VJ, a very reactive person is better off still focusing a bunch on training reactivity versus max strength? I probably understood it wrong.

Anyway my main gripe with DJ training is... we know that the increased strength from the squats sticks around long after you stop squatting. But does the RoFD from DJ's stick around long after you stop DJing?! Because if it doesn't, then why would I ever program it into my training for purposes other than peaking or potentiation? Not to mention it can get in the way of maximal strength training... PLUS throw in the fact that maximal strength training helps increase RoFD as well (not reactive strength though).


Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I like your sprinting example a lot.

He hits on many points in the article you posted, and also the IT band stretch he proposes is really a TFL stretch.

But damn... It can only lengthen half a percent? Personally i completely forgot that muscles can lengthen at all. I thought their resting positions didnt change, but rather they can simply be stretched further. They have more "give" thats all.

Damn i really want to add some DJ's into my training. Just like 5x1 or something, but all max effort. Low box. Im in a strength building phase right now. 5x1 will do a good job of potentiating my squats and keeping some jumping efficiency.

But heres something thats been bugging me. And i seriously believe it needs to be addressed. I havent overanalyzed in a long time, but bare with me: Are DJ's worth your training time if youre naturally decently reactive?

I just feel like is more economical training wise for me to increase my squat:bw ratio rather than focus on plyos EVER. How long do your plyo gains stick around??? This is very important. When i lift for strength, if i take a few weeks off i lose some strength right away. It takes a few weeks to get it back after that. But most of the gains REALLY stick around. I mean if i go from a 200lb to 300lb squat and then take a few weeks off, i may hover at 270lbs so im still benefitting from having increased my squat even though i havent squatted in a while. Another important fact is that max strength has a very high ceiling. But not only that, increasing max strength increases RoFD as well!!!

Three iportant things to take away: after not squatting for a while you still benefit from having squatted for a long time preceding the hiatus. The high ceiling on max strength. Increasing max strength increases RoFD. These three make it "worth it" (highly economical) to increase relative strength.

Movement efficiency has a very low ceiling. As an analogy, say i play a lot of bball from January through March. Say i dont play basketball from March through July so my vert suffers. But say i continue to make relative strength gains the entire year. When i start playing ball again in August, my vert starts going up again and by October Its is higher than what it was in January due to the relative strength gains i made since January.

So Would it ever be really necessary to waste time keeping that movement efficiency from Jan through Oct really? I mean, do basketball players stay conditioned in the off season? Not really. Its quickly lost and quickly gained, so why stay conditioned in the off season when you can just condition yourself for a couple weeks before the next season starts?! Like conditioning, feel like the ceiling on movement efficiency is hit pretty quickly so theres no real need to keep it up in the long term. Just get it back when you need it.

But what about DJ performance? If you are regularly doing 5x5 from a high box, then youre kicking ass at them because thats tough. But lets say you take a few weeks off from doing that. How long until you get back at the same jump heights on that highbox?? If it takes very long to get it back, then that sucks and its not so worth busting your ass with them (if youre naturally decently reactive). If you can get it back quickly however, then thats similar to the movement efficiency analogy i gave and it may mean DJ's have a low ceiling. So again it may not be sp worth it.

So where does that leave us? Well it sucks if DJ performance takes long to get back that sucks. But if it can be regained quickly that means it may have a low ceiling... Then the most important question is.... Much like increasing your max strength... If you increase your reactive ability from 20 units to 100 units, and then dont train it for a long time. Does it drop back to 20 units, or does it hover around 70 units so you are still benefitting from having done DJ's? Or is it more like movement efficiency, where you can go from 100 units and down to 20 units, but very quickly back up to 100 units ahen needed. That really is the golden question.

This brings up SO many questions in terms of programming. I have a hunch that at least for athletes like me (naturally decently reactive) depth jumps should pretty much be saved for peaking phases. Its not worth making them a big part of my training when it means my strength will stall during those phases and the DJ gains have a low ceiling, are quickly lost, and do not be efit me anymore if i were to have stopped doing them for a few weeks. I mean how much is my squat going to increase when im DJing 4x10 twice a week? Fuck that id rather just focus on building max strength.

Then when i have to focus on strength again... Ill have to cut back on the DJ a lot but then ill probably lose DJ performance, you know? So its like... I made those temporary gains, but now that i want to increase my squat:bw ratio and make aome permanent vert gains, DJ take a back seat.

With my limited knowledge i conclude (but really shouldnt; my assumption is based on the idea that depth jump effienciy is quickly lost and doesnt benefit you for long when untrained, much like movement efficiency) that for people naturally decently reactive, and for long term gains (so ignore peaking phases), DJ's should be limited to being an excellent potentiation exercise before heavy squats. And they will do a great job of improving and keeping jumping efficiency damn high. Anyway, lets not forget, increasing your max squat increases your RoFD by a significant amount -- especially if every rep is performed at 100% effort. Remember, its not the bar speed, its the intended speed that counts. This makes an even greater case to train moreso for relative strength than to focus efforts on DJ's -- no need to have strength take a back seat to increase RoFD when heavy squatting does that too (admittedly to a lesser extent, but dont forget DJ gains are lost).



At the end of the day, i wont play basketball for months right. So my very will drop from 36" to 30". But then ill make great relative strength gains. And my vert will be at 32". Then when i play a ton of ball again, my vert will shoot to 38". Over the years my training has gotten simpler: figure out what micro and macro cycle set ups help improve my squat:be ratio the most... And then go out and jump. If i were to think long term, DJ's should only have their place when (1) my squat:be is so difficult to improve past a certain point that its more economical to focus on reactive strength, or (2) increasing squat:bw ratio fails to yield an increase in vertical thats worth the effort, its time to focus on DJ's since they will be more economical at that point.

In other words, by the time it makes sense for me to focus on DJ's from a long term, holostic perspective of my training career (ignore potentiation for squats), i will be using them to reach only the pinnacle of my jumping ability.

Oh another thing

I think a long time ago an article was posted about why exactly a plyometric movement leads to more strength output. and it said it's mainly caused by the tendons stretching so that the muscle can contract isometrically for a moment rather than concentrically the whole time. the advantage this gives is that muscles can contract with more force eccentrically, then isometrically, than concentrically.

anyone know what I'm talking about? its very interesting and makes a lot of sense

Sent the guy at http://b-reddy.org/ postural photos as well as my Xrays. He will respond with an assessment of my body, or more likely ask for some vids from me doing various movements if he needs to see more.

So from him I'll be told what is short, long, dormant, active, and how to correct all of that. And why those methods are effective for my specific issues. That's the most important part! I'm really impressed with his write-up on the best way to stretch the IT band, as well as many other things he's written about on his site.

When I get a response I'll update.

Shit your calves are strong. How do you do those calf raise? Do you do them at a deficit? Do you pause at the top/bottom?

Got my free Xrays from the chiropractors/sports massage office:





Looks like my spine bows to one side ever so slightly.

I will update with postural photos soon. My natural posture isn't so good. Practically, my posture is decent because I put in a conscious effort all day when I walk around to walk upright. But when I'm fully relaxed, its' not so good.

Week 90

Tuesday - 12/15/15
191.4lbs

-= Workout Log =-

Pull ups
BW x 5                             >> 60sec rests.
+25lbs x 8
+25lbs x 7
+25lbs x 5
+25lbs x 4
+25lbs x 4

Lateral Raises
35's x 3                             >> 60sec rests.
40's x 2
45's x 1
35's x 12
35's x 10
35's x 8
30's x 8
30's x 5

Cable Rows
140 x 5                         >> 60sec rests.
180 x 3
220 x 1
180 x 12
180 x 10
180 x 8
160 x 8
160 x 8

Ab Pulldowns
95 x 5                             >> 60sec rests.
120 x 12
120 x 12
120 x 12

Rear Delt W Flyes
20's x 15                             >> 45sec rests.
20's x 15
20's x 15 PR

Damn I'm starting to look good again. I look more cut because I have my pump back from lifting. I don't mean the pump during the workout. I mean the week-long pump you get when you lift consistently. I have a vein on my lower abs showing again.