Author Topic: chasing athleticism  (Read 939746 times)

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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2190 on: December 02, 2014, 09:23:19 am »
+1
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2191 on: December 02, 2014, 10:16:19 am »
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1. more single leg jumping
2. more sprinting
3. more bounding

Paradoxically i only do single leg jumps during games never in training. I guess that's why i haven't seen any concrete improvemetns in performance yet :( But i can't imagine anything more boring than doing layups in training. I guess the answer is obvious, i have to start dunking off one leg..... and....... keep working on it til it becomes natural. If i can dunk off a drive in a game it will happen off one leg. and if i can't even do it well in practice with no dfenders have no chance of pulling it off in a game with semi athletic guys (relative to me) in my way.

i really dislike sprinting because it fucks up legs and recovery. i guess i cud build up to it slowly. a little is probably better than nothing at all. i could commit to maybe a sprint session once every 2 weeks. maybe. will probably end up skipping it when it becomes a hassle haha.

never done bounds! i need a coach :(
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

LBSS

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2192 on: December 02, 2014, 11:22:54 am »
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you don't need a coach for bounds! although it does help to have feedback. t0ddday helped me out big time with those, and acole.

for sprinting, it doesn't need to be all-out to have an effect. submax sprints can help, as well.
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Coges

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2193 on: December 02, 2014, 06:24:03 pm »
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But i can't imagine anything more boring than doing layups in training.

You know what's great about layups? Works on your single leg jump, some conditioning, your touch, your coordination, etc. Pretty much as sports specific as it gets.

To make them more exiting (mildy) try emulating game situations and driving from different parts of the key, baseline, etc. All the while you'll be ingraining your SLVJ technique.
"Train as hard as possible, as often as possible, while staying as fresh as possible"
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ChrisM

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2194 on: December 02, 2014, 09:10:15 pm »
+2
Straight layups ARE boring. Make them exciting like Coges said, add a eurostep, reverse layups, finger rolls from various angles, wrong hand layups using your body to shield the imaginary defender, or my personal favorite way to spice up a layup line....

Try to dunk the damn thing! ;)
Insert motivational quote here...

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2195 on: December 03, 2014, 10:06:11 am »
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FBS 3x100
FS 3x110
BS 3x115
Basketball game

Squat notes;
Ok. Felt like attempting a PR set of 8 and 11 on FS and BS respectively but thought to save it for after the game.

Basketball notes:
Kinda sprained my ankle :( Not terribly i can walk ok. But it feels off. Also took a good hit to the forearm.

I tried going for higher rep squats in a 2nd session after the game and dinner but 90kg warmup felt heavy so there was prob no way i was going to PR 8x97.5kg or whatever. So all in, pretty ordinary day. Hopefully my ankle is ok though.
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2196 on: December 05, 2014, 07:13:25 am »
+2
FBS 3x100, 2x115 (LPR), 1x120 (LPR)
BS 3x122.5 (LPR), 1x125B, 2x130B(LPR)
FS 8x97.5 (PR)
BS 8x105
FS 10x90 (PR)
BS 12X90 (PR)

Squat notes:
Lots of volume and some PRs, so a good squat day :)
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2197 on: December 05, 2014, 09:14:19 am »
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I was messing around with assistance work when i realised how light 100kg felt and thought i could jump up with this and true enough i cud and it was easy and felt good. So i'm wondering whether i shud explore this further.

Not doing jump squats in the sense of going deep ATG and then jumping up, talking about not even dipping much at all.. because i reason, unathletic guys like me dont have the time to set up for a dip jump in a game time situation .. we have to react as quickly as possible (in our unathletic Eigenzeit) which means no dip just straight up. So if i practice jumping up with say 100kg as my SPP with minimal dip it will carry over to my game? Got nothing to lose so ima try it out.

This is prob the first time i've been excited about something in the gym for a lonnnnnng time.. hope it pays off. i have to train like an unathletic person.. it makes sense.. what works for a genuine athlete WONT work for someone like me. I shud have realised this ages ago haha.
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2198 on: December 05, 2014, 10:19:54 am »
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For training that 'reaction time' thing , i would suppose Lance's 1-2 jump squat is a good idea.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfjZkOnKVM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHfjZkOnKVM</a>



For jump squats ROM, there is no obvious reason to go full. According to Lance, the ideal depth for 'transition/reversal' training is a little lower than the actual depth of jumping.
He was referring to half squats though, not jump ones, but his version is very similar at the transition, he allows a little freefall right before it. That could also be somewhat interesting for you:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoD5ditPmJo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoD5ditPmJo</a>



And then we have the 'jump squats with 100kg on your back while having a back injury history' issue...  :ninja:
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2199 on: December 05, 2014, 10:36:03 am »
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For training that 'reaction time' thing , i would suppose Lance's 1-2 jump squat is a good idea.

How do you reason? Reaction time is innate - It's not something that can be trained up. You're wired a certain way from birth. Probably. Maybe it's more plastic at adolescence than adulthood though but there isnt much to do about it. But accepting my reaction as is, how can I improve my game time performance given the limitation?

Consider I can do a SVJ dunk given enough dip (=time) but game time, i dont have the luxury to do that because by the time i've dipped down someone else has already beat me to the ball and has finished retrieving it while i'm just getting up. Or got the shot off before i block him. And what ends up happening is, I compensate for my reaction time and try to jump lower but quicker which means less dip. That's the part im trying to address - because if i can get up with a heavy barbell with a small or minimal dip i can def do the same, quicker and higher, sans barbell.

Im not worried about my back with this exercise because 100kg doesn't challenge my back (i do calf raises with 200kg and walk out front squats with 170kg..). I feel i can land safely with it, especially since my back is vertical non these non dip jump squats. The main concern I have is not hitting my head at hte top of my rack because i have the chinup bar and/or lat attachment in the way! I cud do them outside the rack but that makes me queasy in case something goes wrong, esp jumping 100kg without being able to dump the bar :/ So we'll see. Will be conservative and make the weight go up so i dont jump too high.

Btw i wouldnt take those coaches recommendation too literally. Your boy KB tells people do do JS with 45lb because he knows his main audience wud get themselves into trouble if left to work it out themselves. I have a friend who managed to improve his leap doing jump squats with 120kg. He hurt himself doing them too but he shudnt have been using that weight considering i doubt he cud do a proper squat with 90kg..
Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2200 on: December 05, 2014, 11:22:02 am »
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The reasoning for the 1-2 jump squat is that i would suppose ( again ) that in a 'normal' jump squat you can adjust the dip,  speed,  time and depth, in this 1-2 variation the landing of the first jump leaves you no option, you have to reverse the freefalling and you have to do it fast, a few ms lag and your depth is off. Also i said 'i would suppose' , it was like 2c, just another thing to consider, FYI.


Your info is wrong, kellyb prescribes wave-loaded jump squats too with up to 30%RM.
Jump squats have nothing to do with heavy calf raises and front squat walkouts. Your lower back will have to deal with 100kg plus your upper body weight that are accelerated with 1G for as long as you are falling. That is huge.
And did you really mention a friend of yours that hurt his back doing heavy jump squats as an argument for not worrying about your back in heavy jump squats?

Anyway, once again, i was not trying to tell you what to do, i was offering a couple of options to consider, food for thought. It was more than clear, the first video said 'i would suppose it is a good idea', the second video said 'could be somewhat interesting for you'

And the back...  :ninja:

I don't get why you get so -aggressive- defensive in your replies.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2201 on: December 05, 2014, 12:12:46 pm »
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Your info is wrong, kellyb prescribes wave-loaded jump squats too with up to 30%RM.
Quote from: the kb link from the previous page
¼ rhythmic Jump squat with 45 lbs – 2 x 8-10

^ haha.

but regarding the suggestions, im less interested in jump squat variants that call for light weights like in the linked vids. If light weights worked why would anyone squat with anything more than 60kg? It has to be heavy enough to be useful that's why i feel these no dip squats might work for me not just cause they fit my need to use decent weight but also because they address my weakness where i dont have enough time to dip deeper during game time. imagine if instead of a deep dip, if i cud do a SVJ dunk with minimal dip. That improves me chances of getting a gametime dunk in the post or pulling a key rebound or important block. That's why i'm excited about no dip heavy jump squats ... provided they work.. but we dont know until i try so lets see

Training for sub 20 5K & 40" RVJ & 170kg BS @ 85kg bw. log entry template

vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2202 on: December 05, 2014, 12:28:18 pm »
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I didn't say kelly prescribes ONLY 30%RM , you said he prescribes 45lbs, i said he prescribes up to 30%RM TOO. If i quote the %30RM prescription, i win?  :P

With all this game-time thinking-vs-doing thing, i agree, totally. It is something i face all the time as a combination of being naturally un-athletic and un-explosive, as well as old.
I don't know if and how its trained, it just made a foggy sense that the 1-2 jump squat with the freefall element would be apropriate


If light weights worked why would anyone squat with anything more than 60kg?

Seriously?

Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?

maxent

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2203 on: December 05, 2014, 12:30:47 pm »
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There was a guy on pendlay's forum who was doing jump squats with 140kg and everyone told him it was a bad idea. I wonder how it turned out for him.

I never got hte point of doing jump squats with a lot of dip. It seems to me that using light weight is a consequence of wanting too much depth. When i tried them, they just felt so unnatural as a movement. Plus what's the point of using all the momentum out of the bottom towards the jump? The jump itself is a seperate part and if that's what you want or need to train then might as well cut depth there. I can't help feel i'll get more carry over by using minimal dip for jump squats as well as heavy partial squats. Maybe they'll re-inforce each other and make each other better too? It's pretty exciting to explore this. i'll give it a solid 6 weeks and we'll see what it did for my game..
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 12:39:49 pm by maxent »
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vag

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Re: chasing athleticism
« Reply #2204 on: December 05, 2014, 12:40:03 pm »
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For the record, i am not saying they wont work. On the contrary, it sounds good, neither too heavy or too light, most probably covering a big spectrum in the speed-strength area, as opposed to what we usually do, train at the two extremes. Hell, I've done a lot of explosive 120kg partial and/or box squats, when my full squat max was 110kg or less, i loved them.
I was just saying, be careful.
And sorry for the too long hijack.
over and out.
Target training paces (min/km), calculated from 5K PR 22:49 :
Easy run : 5:48
Tempo run : 4:50
VO2-max run :4:21
Speed form run : 4:02

---

it's the biggest trick in the run game.. go slow to go fast. it doesn't make sense until it smacks you in the face and you're like ....... wtf?